User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3038
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
But it fails to explain a) why the bullet holes are so conveniently concentrated at b) the cockpit section. Why would these bullet holes be up front at the cockpit section if you could gun the center mass of the airplane, where the fuel is located?

Bullet holes? What kind of bullets? Are the holes consistent with 20mm rounds?
Any thing smaller would probably mean that the bullets holes were made on the ground.

Further question: What kind of shrapnel are loaded in a BUK war head? One war head of a missile that I have seen contains many small steel balls. If these steel balls penetrate the fuselage, wouldn't it look like bullet holes?

Just questions . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
But it fails to explain a) why the bullet holes are so conveniently concentrated at b) the cockpit section. Why would these bullet holes be up front at the cockpit section if you could gun the center mass of the airplane
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 101):
Bullet holes? What kind of bullets?

In fairness guys, that wasn't my own opinion - I was quoting the 'experts.......'  

If I have to guess, the 'bullet-holes' look odd to me, as, from the holes in the one photograph that has been published so far (at the side of the cockpit), some appear to have been going in, and others to be coming out?

As to what type of ammunition, I would say they were probably 0.5in. machinegun bullets. 20mm. explosive shells would blow quite large ragged holes in the fuselage, not just cause more-or-less 'neat' round ones..........

[Edited 2014-08-08 07:24:33]
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5721
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 100):
Any thing smaller would probably mean that the bullets holes were made on the ground.

My father was once judge for my district. They had once a case involving insurance fraud - a person apparently laid several layers of cloth on his car, and then made hailstone "damage" with a hammer. It just took an expert with a microscope to differentiate the two kinds of damage...

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 100):
Further question: What kind of shrapnel are loaded in a BUK war head? One war head of a missile that I have seen contains many small steel balls. If these steel balls penetrate the fuselage, wouldn't it look like bullet holes?

They would look like bullet holes, AFAIK. But then there is a difference... the shockwave from the exploding warhead will produce a different damage to the hull (pattern of buckling, e.g.), and then the paint will burn, the hull will, to a small degree, melt.



David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 102):
I understand why you would ask the question of "why had no one seen it" and "where's the sonic boom"...That said, if someone had seen it and come forward, it would help a lot... that is undeniable.

Faint praise Mandala   but yes that is the focus of this question.

The 50km range was based on A/C sonic booms and a bombing range. Yes it is a guestimate, if you have heard a Buk launch then I defer to you. I searched for some noise specs but cannot find any. Some of the proposed launch positions are close to towns so if that was the launch site it would have been heard.

I found this which relates to the search for a possible Buk launch location:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted...-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631

This article was talking about possible launch sites and lack of corroborating evidence. Inconsistencies in the Ukrainian position relating to separatists possession of working Buk. The US is seen backing away from there initial categorical position. The article examines both sides of the argument in a balanced way.
http://thecrux.com/the-very-latest-on-the-crisis-in-ukraine/
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4046
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 84):
Is it me only who has a chilling feeling that investigators are not that interested to investigate?

Probably, yes. it's mostly just you. Have you considered the fact that the crash site is in the middle of what most (including the investigators themselves) consider to be a war zone? While these folks really want to do what they do, with their heart and passion, they have no interest in becoming the next civilian casualties that have no side in this conflict.

BTW. "The investigators" are by far mostly looking for human remains; finding/locating, recovering, retrieving, and sending them home in a worthy manner. The number of real aircraft accident investigators on site was and is very very limited.


Quoting pylon101 (Reply 84):
Who is going to be in charge of the crash area?

I guess that is the real problem. According to all international treaties, the crash area is Ukraine. Some folks, mostly referred to as "separatists, and apparently supported by Russia/Mr. Putin, are actively fighting that, creating a disputed area.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 84):
The population is zombied and believe that "Russian Putin is responsible."

So you're saying that your side is not zombie? At least in my country I do not have to be afraid to go to jail if I disagree with our leaders. Mind you, that's not criticizing your political system, since I do not know what political system should serve your population better.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 93):
In the meantime, the Ukrainians officials are obviously losing the consistency.

I agree. I have little faith in (official) Ukraine communications. But that does not mean that the "other side" is therefore more trustworthy.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
2. The observation that Ukraine was responsible for placing a lot of people and A/C in danger of being shot down, was also from me.

So the separatists dispute Ukraine authority over the disputed area, including it's airspace. But now Ukraine is responsible for telling the world that that airspace, is unsafe. Airspace which according to the separatists is not Ukraine at all???
While I agree that the international aviation community (ICAO in my view) should come up with much better protocols regarding this subject, one can't put much blame there in to Ukraine hands. I mean, somehow the separatists get their hand on a BUK system, that they do their best to hide from Ukraine. And now they blame Ukraine for not telling that to the world???
Let's look at this question: why did Russia not tell the world? Surely their intelligence agencies should be much more trustworthy, and have a much better picture of the situation than Ukraine?

Rgds,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:50 pm

I am not going to argue with you, PW.
You know what? Even hypothetically I can't imagine a situation that an investigative body would say: most probably, the launch was made by the Ukrainian Air Force.
It simply cannot happen.
Because even assuming so, or allowing a possibility of UAF being guilty - would completely break all (without exclusion) political decisions of NATO-aligned states.
All sanctions, all declarations, all indignant words about humanity - would turn into a terrible backlash for all politicians.

My assumption.
The preliminary/interim report will not point to rebels or UAF. It will most probably state there is not enough supporting evidence to clearly determine the side responsible.
It will save face to all politicians. And it will give space for all parties involved to negotiate.

As we used to say in the 90s, "the truth is out there."

Just a word about freedom of speech. I used to post on the Russian sites, including RIA and RT, that I consider Mr. Rogozin (vice-PM of the Russian government) a plague for the present government. As much as Mr. Pushkov, Chairman of Duma Foreign Affairs Committee. And many others.
I especially reject every idea of Mr. Dugin and Mr. Kurginyan, the authors of the idiotic concept of the Russian Civilization.
You know...I am still here. And nobody seems to care what I am saying and thinking.
Isn't it the essence of freedom of speech' reality today? I can say whatever I wish. Nobody cares.

[Edited 2014-08-08 10:57:26]

[Edited 2014-08-08 10:58:26]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):

1. The observation that if the separatists shot MH17 down, it was unintentional, came from me. If you notice the entire thrust of the US media barrage has now changed, from Russia and Putin did it, to exactly that.

I hope you aren't claiming that you have somehow changed the media's direction. And I hope that you understand that many, many people believe that it was likely unintentional that the separatists shot down MH17. Oh, sorry, I mean "if" - ignoring of course their admission. And I hope you realize that "Russia and Putin did it" is not an accurate portrayal of what has been discussed. A more accurate description would be "Russia and Putin are responsible" - an entirely different claim.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
2. The observation that Ukraine was responsible for placing a lot of people and A/C in danger of being shot down, was also from me. That issue is the subject of discussion by the Sec Gen of IATA and many others now.

Responsible? Like airlines didn't know that a war was going on? I don't think it will be "The Ukraine purposely allowed civilian airliners to be targets" - I think it will be "We need to come up with protocols for how to conduct aviation above war-torn or disputed territory." Or is Ukraine responsible for airliners flying over Syria, Iraq, etc also?

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
I make an observation that it is strange that a Buk launch would make a lot of noise and would most likely have been noticed over a large area.

Really? Sounds more like a factual claim to me:

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 49):
Keep in mind, a Buk launch could be seen or heard in a 50km or greater radius of the launch. That is a very large area.


Then there's this gem:

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
Any objective person would agree, but no, we get the usual suspects claiming no one would have seen or heard a Buk launch and that Buks make only small sonic booms. Ahrg...

lol So anyone who doesn't agree with your position isn't objective? Got it....   Talk about "the usual suspects"...

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
I am trying to analyze the data we have and make observations, that could lead anywhere. I really don't mind where.

Uh-huh...

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
What I don't like is when people quote BS mainstream media claims and propaganda as though it was fact.

Yet you continually quote online sources. Maybe if you could list the sources of information that we are allowed to use/trust that'd be great. Thanks.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
Better we don't all waddle into WWIII because people are ignorant of the facts and don't want to hear anything that is not consistent with their current main stream media constructed world view.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 103):
Yes it is a guestimate, if you have heard a Buk launch then I defer to you.

No I've not heard a BUK launch nor seen it launch, but I have seen other stuff being launched, close by and at some distance. But let's add some physics aspect into this...

The missile travels at about Mach 3, assuming it reaches that speed "very quickly", if you are right below MH17 and the missile was going to hit it from elsewhere, it'll take you 30 seconds to hear it hit the plane... which is roughly 10km.
15km is roughly 45 seconds.. at Mach 3, it'll reach 15km within 15 seconds.

No one is going to hear it launch beyond 15km or so, coz by the time they hear it, it would have hit the target already.

Now how easy is it to see it? It really does depend. Have a look at this video, shows the SM-2 being launched and luckily we have various sky conditions at the back, and see how quickly it becomes hard to see it at less than 10 seconds after launch at 2:09 and about 2:20 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVrMz5x6Z7o
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:20 pm

BUK is pretty loud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOzhSHAfMuA
I have no idea though from what distance it can be heard.

[Edited 2014-08-08 11:22:02]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3038
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 103):

The 50km range was based on A/C sonic booms and a bombing range.

I have heard an F-15 sonic boom. This happened a few years back when a pair of F-15 was scrambled from to intercept a stray aircraft that was in AF 1 air space.

Can't recall at what altitude the planes were traveling but the boom was quite loud and sharp. If I didn't know better, I might have thought it was a lightning strike near by or a shallow earth quake.

If I was farther away I may also may have thought it was artillery fire, which I also have heard from a near by army base practice range. And to tell the truth, if all three were going on at the same time, I would not be able to tell them apart.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2260
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 84):
It is quite odd: investigators are leaving the crash area. The Ukrainian army is gradually taking the area.
Is it me only who has a chilling feeling that investigators are not that interested to investigate?

I think they're more interested in not getting shot.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
I make an observation that it is strange that a Buk launch would make a lot of noise and would most likely have been noticed over a large area. Any objective person would agree, but no, we get the usual suspects claiming no one would have seen or heard a Buk launch and that Buks make only small sonic booms. Ahrg...

I am trying to analyze the data we have and make observations, that could lead anywhere. I really don't mind where.
What I don't like is when people quote BS mainstream media claims and propaganda as though it was fact.

What sorts of information could you provide us with for your analysis? People refuted your 50 km claim earlier, and now you're just accusing them of not being objective.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 101):

As to what type of ammunition, I would say they were probably 0.5in. machinegun bullets. 20mm. explosive shells would blow quite large ragged holes in the fuselage, not just cause more-or-less 'neat' round ones..........

How would such rounds get up to 11,000 meters? Even if fired from a plane at 7,000? The M82 (.50 cal) sniper rifle can hit things about 2 km away under perfect conditions. How would a ground attack aircraft hit an airliner 4,000 meters up with any accuracy?
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3038
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:53 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 113):
The M82 (.50 cal) sniper rifle can hit things about 2 km away under perfect conditions. How would a ground attack aircraft hit an airliner 4,000 meters up with any accuracy?

Does any of the Russian fighter or attack aircraft use anything less than a 30mm canon?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 96):
I am trying to analyze the data we have and make observations, that could lead anywhere. I really don't mind where.
What I don't like is when people quote BS mainstream media claims and propaganda as though it was fact.

Despite the bashing they receive from anyone who doesn't aggree with them, there is a reason the "mainstream media" has become mainstream; they are the most consistently reliable and authoritive sources for news and information around the world. They don't generate far-fetched conspiracy theories or fabricate "facts" to fit a scenario; instead, they report the findings of actual news sources and reporters on the ground.

On the other hand, there are also some very good reasone why some "news" sources will never become "mainstream media"... calling them "extreme media" would be far more appropriate. Fortunately, most rational observers haven't been - and won't be -swayed by those journalistic rogues.

[Edited 2014-08-08 15:19:20]
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 104):
Let's look at this question: why did Russia not tell the world?

Russia is doing just that but the Western World is not listening, it is certainly not reporting this fact in any of their main stream media. One wonders why ....

All this, including a proper investigation on the crash site, could be sorted out in no time flat, ... if only ...
If only all sides were genuinely prepared to sit around one table, all put their cards openly on the table and then come to binding agreements. That, of course, will never happen .... again, one wonders why.

That is the problem with an incident like MH-17, it is far to convenient to pass up as a good opportunity to play (dirty) politics. There is no genuine wish to solve this; there is only a greedy wish to station NATO troops as close to the Russian border as possible. War mongering ....
 
alfa164
Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:27 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 116):
All this, including a proper investigation on the crash site, could be sorted out in no time flat, ... if only ...
If only all sides were genuinely prepared to sit around one table, all put their cards openly on the table and then come to binding agreements. That, of course, will never happen .... again, one wonders why.

That is the problem with an incident like MH-17, it is far to convenient to pass up as a good opportunity to play (dirty) politics. There is no genuine wish to solve this; there is only a greedy wish to station NATO troops as close to the Russian border as possible. War mongering ....

War mongering? It wasn't "greedy...NATO" who sent soldiers and merceneries into the Ukraine. It wasn't NATO who supplied deadly weapons to those thugs and malcontents. It wasn't NATO who continues to strir forment in a neighboring, soverign country.

All these attempts to blame everone else but the perpetrators are an obvious attempt to shift blame. Let's talk honestly about the incident, its cause, and now its aftermath. There are plenty of informed people sitting around one table who already know the facts. It is Russia who keeps hiding... surely knowing that their complicity cannot be hidden
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 116):
. if only ...If only all sides were genuinely prepared to sit around one table,

Before we begin to talk about that, how about if we just respect each other's existing borders?
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:10 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 116):
Russia is doing just that but the Western World is not listening, it is certainly not reporting this fact in any of their main stream media. One wonders why ....

All this, including a proper investigation on the crash site, could be sorted out in no time flat, ... if only ...
If only all sides were genuinely prepared to sit around one table, all put their cards openly on the table and then come to binding agreements. That, of course, will never happen .... again, one wonders why.

That is the problem with an incident like MH-17, it is far to convenient to pass up as a good opportunity to play (dirty) politics. There is no genuine wish to solve this; there is only a greedy wish to station NATO troops as close to the Russian border as possible. War mongering ....

        

The actual accident investigators (rather than those sent to collect human remains) have been fairly quiet. I wonder whether they found evidence contrary to what they they expected, i.e. like it was an air-to-air missile and/or a 30mm canon?

It doesn't make much sense that the Ukranian's have stopped the investigation, unless they have something to hide.

At the end of the day, I don't think Russia will ever allow NATO troops or US missiles on the border. The US would already know that. More likely the US actions in the Ukraine are about trying to interfere in the trade of trillions of dollars worth of Russian oil and gas. In particular Russia is moving away from pricing its energy in US dollars undermining the US petro dollar cycle, which will ultimately cost the US a lot or money. Ironically sanctions will accelerate the creation of alternative reserve currencies.

[Edited 2014-08-08 19:14:02]
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:23 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 110):
BUK is pretty loud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOzhSHAfMuA
I have no idea though from what distance it can be heard.

        

Exactly, extremely loud and very visible from a long distance.

Yet no one saw a buk missile launch.

Shortly before the shoot down Ukraine had denied that the separatists had a working Buk. After the shoot down they claimed they always knew the separatists had a Buk. But then if they knew this they should have have closed down the airspace.

Here is an interesting article discussing the details that suggest the Separatists did not have a working Buk.

http://thecrux.com/the-very-latest-on-the-crisis-in-ukraine/

[Edited 2014-08-08 20:04:33]
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 119):
I wonder whether they found evidence contrary to what they they expected, i.e. like it was an air-to-air missile and/or a 30mm canon?

It was hit from the front by a SA-11, the damage found at the wreckage site makes that obvious.



But you have had this explained to you a dozen times already.

The only question is whether it was a deliberate attempt to shoot down an airliner or if it was done as a result of incompetence. The more I look at it the more it appears to have been deliberate.

Whatever dirty deeds the CIA did during the cold war, they never gave any of their trashy freedom fighters HAWK or Patriot SAM missile systems. The fact that the Russians did this very thing stands out as an atrocity whether a civilian airliner was to be the prime target or not.

[Edited 2014-08-08 19:37:21]
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5352
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 114):
Does any of the Russian fighter or attack aircraft use anything less than a 30mm canon?

Yes - some ex-Soviet/Russian-built fighters use a 23-mm cannon.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 105):
You know what? Even hypothetically I can't imagine a situation that an investigative body would say: most probably, the launch was made by the Ukrainian Air Force.
It simply cannot happen.
Because even assuming so, or allowing a possibility of UAF being guilty - would completely break all (without exclusion) political decisions of NATO-aligned states.
All sanctions, all declarations, all indignant words about humanity - would turn into a terrible backlash for all politicians.

My assumption.
The preliminary/interim report will not point to rebels or UAF. It will most probably state there is not enough supporting evidence to clearly determine the side responsible.
It will save face to all politicians. And it will give space for all parties involved to negotiate.

     

That is probably the best outcome that could be expected.
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 5):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 4):
And these witnesses saw not only MH17, but also a much smaller fighter jet?

I saw the same sort of stuff, Scipio. Does make one wonder whether, at the least, MH17 was hit by more than one missile? Possibly including some air-launched ones?

     

Looking more an more like something along these lines is what happened.

Even the Ukranians are shifting away from the story that it was a separatist controlled Buk.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 120):
Yet no one saw a buk missile launch.

This is just unsupported propaganda from the very people who murdered those 298 innocents.

The only way to know that "no one saw a buk missile launch" is to interview each one of the inhabitants of the region separately and anonymously in a safe setting, so they could truthfully describe what they saw and heard that day; only under those conditions could they feel safe that they won't have their throats slit or their children murdered in front of them by Russian thugs if they said the wrong thing.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 120):
Exactly, extremely loud and very visible from a long distance.

Did you see the video I posted?

Now, extremely loud, OK, it's a rocket... but how far would that be heard?
Visible? Yes it should be, under ideal conditions it should be visible for a looooong way away... but on the conditions of the sky that day, how far would it be visible?

Scrap the sonic boom by the way. The ground footprint of the sonic boom would be a lot shorter than the lateral path of the missile. You must remember, the missile is already at some altitude when it reaches Mach 1 and then exceed it. At mach 1, the shockwave is a perpendicular plane to the direction of the missile. The shockwave, does not go backwards because it is a pressure wave front travelling outwards from the missile. ie: If the missile was fired straight up, the shockwave will never reach the ground because it does not propagate backwards. Therefore, although it is not impossible, it is doubtful that someone on the ground would hear the boom due to the vertical trajectory needed to shoot down MH17, by low elevation angle portion of the trajectory would be quite late into the missile flight therefore unlikely the sonic boom would be heard on the ground...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
alfa164
Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 116):
At the end of the day, I don't think Russia will ever allow NATO troops or US missiles on the border. The US would already know that. More likely the US actions in the Ukraine are about trying to interfere in the trade of trillions of dollars worth of Russian oil and gas. In particular Russia is moving away from pricing its energy in US dollars undermining the US petro dollar cycle, which will ultimately cost the US a lot or money. Ironically sanctions will accelerate the creation of alternative reserve currencies.
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 113):
Russia is doing just that but the Western World is not listening, it is certainly not reporting this fact in any of their main stream media. One wonders why ....
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 117):
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 110):BUK is pretty loud.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOzhSHAfMuAI have no idea though from what distance it can be heard. Exactly, extremely loud and very visible from a long distance

While you three have your little lovefest on the sidelines, why won't you even respond to these facts:

In a post on VKontakte, Russia's largest social media site, which has since been taken down, separatist leader Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov, wrote: "In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured."

The AN-26 is a Soviet-built twin-engine transport plane used by the Ukrainian military. Torez is a small city of 80,000 located some 40 kilometers east of Donetsk. Included in the post were two videos that showed a rising plume of black smoke in the distance.

The claim was posted at 5:50 pm Moscow time, shortly before reports surfaced that the Malaysian civilian aircraft, on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, had crashed in eastern Ukraine in the same area near the Russian border

Any answers, gentlemen?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:22 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 88):
Uh, it's "tail-skid" not "tails-kid".

Aviation "experts" often make that mistake...   

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
My point is very simple. I don't care what the guy in California is thinking of me.However, he has no moral right to accuse me of being a troll.

For many decades, the Isrealis have hired hundreds of people - mostly university students, with time on their hands - to monitor social media and blogging websites, and respond to posts deemed negative to their country, editing and adding statements to put their own positions in a better light. They have not been particularly secretive about this practice, and they have not tried (at least, not overlly tried) to spread disinformation and falsehoods. Their role has been to "slant" the commentary and coverage in a pro-Israel direction.

It appears here that the Russians may be trying to copy that type of work - albeit without the subtlety and finesse that the Israelis have been trained to use. Nor do they seem to be limited to facts and truth; they seem willing to create their own set of "facts", and - when those are proven wrong - simply move on to yet another scenario with a new set of outrageous claims and accusations. Like Putin's attempt to cause disruption and distrust of authority in the Ukraine, these agents seem to be trying to fog the thinking of otherwise logical and wellmeaning readers, and to create a alternate universe that takes the readers mind off the facts we already know, and into unsupported claims and conspiacy theories that blame evenyone but Putin and his cronies.

I would never call them "trolls" - although others may - but provocateurs would be too complimentary a term. Well, maybe I would call them trolls...   
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:26 am



Quoting LH526 (Reply 11):
After having a close look at detailed close-up wreckage photos taken by repoter friends of mine on-site I saw several shrapnel parts embedded in the honeycomb ... is it possible to get samples of this shrapnel and (in the lab) trace it back to certain ammunition types proving the assumptions that it it was a russian BUK?

        

Exactly!

Proving or disproving it was a Buk.
I wonder whether this analysis is going on, certainly being kept rather quiet?

This link talks about the evidence emerging that MH17 was most likely hit by Air-to-air missile and finished off by 30mm cannon fire.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-br...0-mm-cannon-experts-allege/5395127

Here a retired German Colonel Bernd Biedermann, an anti A/C missile specialist talks about why he thinks it was unlikely to be a Buk. Also talks about how the German government is wising up to the US energy agenda.
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/07/...inger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/



[Edited 2014-08-08 22:31:56]

[Edited 2014-08-08 22:32:46]
 
alfa164
Posts: 3126
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:00 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
This link talks about the evidence emerging that MH17 was most likely hit by Air-to-air missile and finished off by 30mm cannon fire.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-br...95127

Oh, yeah, that's a credible source! "globalresearch.ca" - one of Michel Chossudovsky's (son of a Russian émigré, holocaust denyer, called one of "Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues" by Terry O'Neill of the Western Standard) projects.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 121):
Even the Ukranians are shifting away from the story that it was a separatist controlled Buk.

No, they are not. You keep making these blatant falsehoods with no evidence at all. Prove it.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:08 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 110):
How would such rounds get up to 11,000 meters? Even if fired from a plane at 7,000? The M82 (.50 cal) sniper rifle can hit things about 2 km away under perfect conditions. How would a ground attack aircraft hit an airliner 4,000 meters up with any accuracy?
Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
Here a retired German Colonel Bernd Biedermann, an anti A/C missile specialist talks about why he thinks it was unlikely to be a Buk. Also talks about how the German government is wising up to the US energy agenda.
http://

without checking the background of Biedermann and Heisenko I think chances that they are former east Germans and have a history with Interflug and the east german airforce are high.

The blog starts with a Picture of an air superiority fighter. In the text this mutates to an SU25, a ground hog like the A10.

These 2 trolls make the public believe that a SU25 which has a Service ceiling of 5 KM with ordnance and 7 km without, and is slower than a 777 could have shot down the 777 with the bord cannon.

I believe it is in avherald, an article proving that the SU 25 would Need supersonic Speed to climb from 7 km to 11 km. It would certainly Need to be much faster than the 777 simply because it would Need to pass the airliner, make a 360° turn, fly back to the 777, make another 90° turn and hit the ockpit with a round of ammo.

Now, you can do that in Hollywood, whch let's Presidents Transfer from one AF1 to the other in that height. Not in the real world with an aircraft that is not made to fly that high and supersonic.

But nice work from the Moscow cronies of the past who still dream of the old days.

BTW, the Crash site is Ukrainian territories and the "disputees" are insurgants which are by no international treaty legitimized in any way.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6127
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:34 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
talks about how the German government is wising up to the US energy agenda.

Contrary to the impression the newly joined Kremlin-bots are trying to make the by far biggets problem for Germany is its own, "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" energy agenda. Knee-jerk decision to abandon nuclear in favor of those funny windmills plus the shared problem of the noose made out of Russian gas pipelines tied around half of Europe.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
Biedermann and Heisenko I think chances that they are former east Germans and have a history with Interflug and the east german airforce are high.

what a "surprise"... meet Genosse Biedermann from the NVA:

Oberst a. D. Bernd Biedermann, Jahrgang 1942, war Fla-Raketenoffizier, fünf Jahre im Diensthabenden System, mehrmals zum Schießen in der Sowjetunion. Er unterrichtete an der Militärakademie in der Fachrichtung Fla-Raketentruppen, war Fachlehrer für Schießlehre und danach bei der Aufklärung der NVA. Am 3. Oktober 1990 wurde Biedermann als Oberst in die Bundeswehr übernommen.

straight from the lion's den of Ostalgia: http://www.neues-deutschland.de/arti...shitze-haette-alles-entflammt.html
 
Unflug
Posts: 728
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:47 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 90):
Stop personal bashing - that all I am asking for

Stop posting anything (including utter nonsense) just because it fits your agenda or your wishes how reality should be - that is all I am asking for. The request goes to you and bluesky9 in the first place.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 108):
I have no idea though from what distance it can be heard.

That is obvious.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
Here a retired German Colonel Bernd Biedermann, an anti A/C missile specialist talks about why he thinks it was unlikely to be a Buk. Also talks about how the German government is wising up to the US energy agenda
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 127):
Oh, yeah, that's a credible source! "globalresearch.ca" - one of Michel Chossudovsky's (son of a Russian émigré, holocaust denyer, called one of "Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues" by Terry O'Neill of the Western Standard) projects.

Exactly.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 128):
without checking the background of Biedermann and Heisenko I think chances that they are former east Germans and have a history with Interflug and the east german airforce are high.

Your guess is correct, according to the article he is a military guy of the former DDR. Furthermore, his "expertise" is published by a paper called "Neues Deutschland". The German edition of the "Prawda" was called "Neues Deutschland" in the old times, now the paper calls itself a "socialist" paper. Certainly a phantastic source for this discussion.

Since I took the time to read it: this specialist Biedermann claims that the whole aircraft should have been immediately burning if it had been hit by a surface to air missile...
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:57 am

It may seem to be odd, but my hope of getting an objective investigation resides in Malaysia these days.
Though Malaysia's Chinese population is less than 25%, the Chinese community has disproportionate influence.
It is explained by the links with Singapore (75% of population are Chinese.)

Though Malaysia is not considered a part of the China's universe, the attitude of Malaysians towards the investigation is pretty critical, though muted.
I would pay attention to at least one source from Singapore, Malaysia or Hong Kong.
New Straits Times is quite good: http://www.nst.com.my/
They have special MH17 section: http://www.nst.com.my/mh17
And they are quite bold.
"Malaysia wants the ‘missing’ Ukrainian ATC tapes" : http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260
A very spicy interview with the Ukrainian ambassador to Malaysia.

The Western mass stream media are complete trash these days.
Besides, if Germans start separate DDR Germans from BRD Germans PUBLICLY , we have a problem.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:15 am

Pylon I have no idea what you're going on about, but if you want an investigation:

Here's your investigation,
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:18 am

There are many others making similar observations.

This link is a good discussion about the change in the US position (which is obvious to all except a posters here who haven't got the memo yet.) You are still fighting old battles, while the world has moved on.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...use-vs-intelligence-community.aspx
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:22 am

Yea, you stick with Ron Paul and.......... who are your other allies?

Oh yea - Cuba and Syria.
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:44 am

Hm... it might be another way to save face.
As the Ukrainian elites are deeply divided, linking a faction with the crime would give a clear path out of this embarrassing situation.
The political establishment of NATO-aligned countries (and only those are taking part in the anti-Russia campaign) would save their puppet Poroshenko; to give Merkel space for negotiating with Putin, etc.
Wow, expect Yulya Tomoshenko to land in Moscow  
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
mark787
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:54 am

bluesky9:

In my opinion, the words "Lie" and "Conspiracy" have similar but different meanings. The Iraq war was in my opinion a "Lie" where the Bush Administration,(taking advantage of a paranoid and angry American public), came out in front of the public and adamantly claimed that Iraq had WMD which clearly they did not. They never did hide the fact that their objective after 9/11 was to seek out "terrorist" and nations that "harboured them" which makes for a very lengthy list of nations. They distorted the truth to favour their cause without disguising the one telling the story, because as most people know, the one who is often telling the lie is the one "featured" in the story. America's hand prints were all over Iraq and you couldn't hide the lie. But the many gullible Americans bought it at the time, and so did a number of other nations as well.

A conspiracy is when someone fabricates an entire story by controlling not only the conception of the story but also the outcome of the story. Although in it's own right, it is a big "lie", it goes further as to control an entire story, involve other parties in the story, then be completely absent from the story that they created originally. So the one hearing the story, never suspects the one telling story because there is a big white elephant in the room that was intended to take the blame. In other words, not only is the truth distorted, but the lie is distorted as well. Reality is so altered in the story that you would never suspect the one who created it.

Now lets get back to the story about the US warning their carriers to not fly over eastern Ukraine. While the warning was issued out to American carriers, it was not a secret message. The directive is also passed on to ICAO/ IATA and they themselves could decide on whether the airspace is considered to be safe for commercial traffic or not. The warning could then be passed on to all other carriers world wide, and the airspace be closed. Other non US carriers got the message obviously. BA, AF and QF just to name a few. Why didn't MH get the message as well as LH and a few others that continued to fly the route? What about the airspace in question? Why did the Ukraine allow to remain open even though it didn't want any of it's own carriers flying there? But wait... Then why didn't Russia close it's airspace that borders eastern Ukraine? MH017 would have eventually flown over Russian territory, so we can blame Ukraine here, but not Russia?? It's not a case that can be simply stated that "oh the US knew that something was going to happen." It's a case where maybe we shouldn't fly big passenger jets over an area that is in a civil conflict that has had a number of aircraft shoot downs, and while we are at it, included the story of military aircraft activity in the area. That reason alone in my opinion warrant a ban on flights over the entire region.

One last thing, stating that MH017 was considerably absent of American passengers is not at all shocking when one considers that the vast majority of passengers from the US traveling to the eastern region of Asia will either transit on direct flights to Asian destination such as Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, etc and transfer there... or transit through the US west coast via airports such as LAX or SFO. SQ would be one of the oddities where one would travel east to FRA from JFK to get to SIN. Middle eastern carriers like Emirates and Qatar are trying to steal the show by routing through DXB and DOH, but Americans are usually rather shy of flying through these areas. Some might even use an European carrier as well and transit through say FRA or AMS, but air fares (from my previous experience), were rather expensive with those carriers. If the assumption is made that the shoot down was staged by the US and Ukraine, wouldn't have it been a better story to tell if over 200 Americans were killed in a shoot down of a passenger jet? This theory would then imply that if the US created the entire conspiracy, why then would they be so concerned about keeping American casualties to a minimum? Come on? Do you really think that the US government will care that much about their own people if that much was at stake? And now that we speak of it, how many US carriers do you know of that ply this specific route on a daily basis prior to the warnings issued by the US Government? It is not exactly a surprise that there are not many Americans in the area. And so it shouldn't then be a surprise to not find many Malaysians flying on B6 or WN between New York and Florida    
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:16 am

I would agree. This would be a conspiracy at the massive scale.
Say, many Dutch might use MH17 for further travel to Thailand on Air Asia.
Air fares to Bangkok are more expensive.
It is just an assumption. I used to visit Thailand almost every year.
So I don't consider it odd.
Sure I would like to have stats. As AMS used to be a hub for US Airways and NWA in earlier days.
And the traffic from the U.S. is quite strong.
Anyway. I didn't see many vacationing Americans in Malaysia or Thailand or Singapore or Bali.
The business U.S. crowd is frequent and considerable though.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:29 am

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
This link talks about the evidence emerging that MH17 was most likely hit by Air-to-air missile and finished off by 30mm cannon fire.

Sorry, 30mm cannon fire from what aircraft? Air-to-air missile?
That article talks about what aircraft that can do it? A Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot?
Once I see that, I automatically cross that link off as invalid.

Why?
MH17 was flying at FL330, Su-25 cannot fly that high and tail the 777.
We see entry wounds at the front section of the aircraft, sorry, the Su-25 would not be able to inflict that sort of forensig evidence if it was tailing the 777.
The Su-25 has a reported Maximum Mach of 0.8, that would be Mach 0.8... oh hang on, we have a slight problem... the 777 cruises at mach 0.84.
So not only can it not have been at an altitude near the 777, it does not have the speed to tail it.

And then what about the air-to-air missile? What air-to-air missile can an Su-25 carry?
It can carry the K-13 and the R-60.
Unfortunately, these missiles are infra-red homing missiles and would not have resulted in the forensic evidence at the front of the aircraft (the fragmented warhead entry wound), because infra-red homing missiles would hit the engine.

For the Su-25 to go and cause that damage to the front section, it would have had to fly faster than the 777, then shoot it from the front.

Sorry, please let common sense prevail in you, if another aircraft did tail MH17, shot it down with an air-to-air missile and then finish it off with a 30mm cannon, it cannot be on an Su-25 Frogfoot.

If it was, say a Mig-29, yes it has the radar-guided missile, but if it was following/tailing MH17 and shot it, again, the missile would not cause a frontal aspect damage (eg: entry wounds on the cockpit ", and we would be seeing fragments on the tail fin... we didn't. So if a Mig-29 was trailing or shadowing MH17, it would still have to attack from the front, and there's no need for a 30mm cannon hit. A frontal aspect radar guided missile hit would yield the same result as what we're seeing.

Now, these so called "conspiracy theorists" are not even using that as a possibility, and they decided to use a more ridiculous notion of this tragedy being the work of Su-25 Frogfoots... utterly stupid and ridiculous.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 126):
Here a retired German Colonel Bernd Biedermann, an anti A/C missile specialist talks about why he thinks it was unlikely to be a Buk.

Working in aviation and aviation safety, one quickly learns to work with the facts and not the so-called reputation of sources. I've seen a retired former fighter pilot and air force chief of staff write more ridiculous things, so this German Colonel being way off, isn't exactly surprising?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):
New Straits Times is quite good:

Would you still say it's good if I tell you they used a.netters as an expert source?

OK, now can someone throw me a better conspiracy theory on the execution of this tragedy?
The facts as we know it is that the aircraft came down where it came down, FDR data has been said to have been consistent with rapid and massive decompression and shrapnel damage, and we have shrapnel damage visible in the front left cockpit and top front and lower front, with entry wounds.

With these facts, we still don't know who shot the plane down, we just know it was shot down by a missile (and in a frontal aspect bias hit).
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:01 am

Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein of Malaysia "said intelligence and evidence gathered from the fragments of the ill-fated aircraft clearly showed it was shot down by missiles that were launched to the air from the ground."

Also Humennyi said there’s a rational explanation for the 30mm holes.
“The bulletholes these theorists said came from the fighter could have come from any 30mm weapon used by the rebels.
“They could have come from their armoured combat vehicles after the MH17 hit the ground.”

I can't see any reason not to trust Malaysia on these issues.

http://www.nst.com.my/node/21682
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:11 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 123):
Did you see the video I posted?

Now, extremely loud, OK, it's a rocket... but how far would that be heard?
Visible? Yes it should be, under ideal conditions it should be visible for a looooong way away... but on the conditions of the sky that day, how far would it be visible?

The sonic boom also travels backwards from the location of the origin: see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

What range it could be heard from depends on how quickly it gets to Mach 1. (I can't find that information.)

Yes I watched a few of the videos, it is extremely loud and on a clear day visible for many miles.

In any case, not easy to conceal. People would have heard and seen it.

Can't do much more on this without more information.
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:19 am

mark787

Lie vs Conspiracy
A lot of people were in on the Iraq lie, in my mind that makes it a conspiracy to deceive the American public and the rest of the world. The media campaign to promulgate that lie was very effective propaganda. Many people believed the lie, not just gullible people.

(That leaves the question, what was Iraq actually about? Maybe oil and the currency it trades in and/or just a way for Republican linked companies to rip off the American public and steal Iraq's oil at the same time?)

US Warning to its Carriers
Yes not secret, but also it is not ICAO/IATA's job at this point to forward that information to other airlines. Looks like in the future they will be more proactive in this regard. The point is though, that the US had considered the risks but even after they warned their own airlines, they did not take active steps to warn other airlines in Europe, India, Malaysia etc. If they had this tragedy would not have happened.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 137):
Why did the Ukraine allow to remain open even though it didn't want any of it's own carriers flying there? But wait... Then why didn't Russia close it's airspace that borders eastern Ukraine?


That is a good question, to me that says Ukraine may have had bad intentions (shadowing or shoot down) and Russia has no idea a shoot down was a possibility. Russia certainly seems to have been taken by surprise, which points away from the separatists and towards Ukraine.

Zero Documented US Pax on MH17
There is not a lot more to say about this, except that on the face of it, it seems unusual. The only way to know how unusual would be to compare it to the 800 A/C that transited the war zone in the previous days. It could turn out to be quite common or not. Someone in Europe would need to retrieve the data from the pax manifests for all those flights.

Although the US has carried out extrajudicial killings of some US citizens, I do not think the authorities would let a situation develop where the Ukranians might shoot down an A/C with (documented) US citizens on board.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 136):
As the Ukrainian elites are deeply divided, linking a faction with the crime would give a clear path out of this embarrassing situation.

You could be right.

The other thing I wonder about is the odds of Malaysia losing two A/C in such unusual circumstances in such a short time. Is there something about Malaysia that has made it a target, or is it just a terrible coincidence?

[Edited 2014-08-09 04:33:37]
 
na
Posts: 9724
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):
The Western mass stream media are complete trash these days.

"Complete trash"? O-k, I´d like to know how you call "your media" then.
The West at least still has a free press, even if many are somewhat partial in the light of so much evidence against the Russian separatists.
Russia has no independent press. Its all propaganda nonsense. Or do you think in all earnest that you are well and objectively informed in your home country?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 132):
Besides, if Germans start separate DDR Germans from BRD Germans PUBLICLY , we have a problem.

Whats this?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 130):
what a "surprise"... meet Genosse Biedermann from the NVA:

Thanks L410Turbolet and unflug. I did not even bother to check their Background to be spot-on. I am a "Zeitzeuge", a contemporary witness. When i read that garbage I can identlfy who's behind such "opinion".

These Clowns dont even bother to camouflage . The scary part is, Soviet Union and DDR Mk 2.0 are alive and kicking and obviously Play a part in this Crash of a maialysian airliner. I don't say intentionally, but someone goofed up and instead of playing it open and admitting the horrible mistake., the old KGB Division "Desinformation" Comes in with the old comrades like Biedermann (the Brandtstifter) & Co.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 141):
The sonic boom also travels backwards from the location of the origin: see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

The soundwaves do, but not the sonic boom, which is a convergence of soundwaves creating a pressure shockwave, which is a Mach Cone after beyond Mach 1. Where the Mach Cone passes you, you hear the sonic boom. Now, the cone does not travel backwards. It's basic high school physics.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting mark787 (Reply 136):
Other non US carriers got the message obviously. BA, AF and QF just to name a few. Why didn't MH get the message as well as LH and a few others that continued to fly the route? What about the airspace in question?

That kind of comment leads me to wonder what the CEO's from many of the airlines are thinking.
It would be very interesting to be privy to some of their correspondence on this issue.
No doubt, they too would be asking a lot of pointed questions to some of the authorities involved.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 141):
That is a good question, to me that says Ukraine may have had bad intentions (shadowing or shoot down) and Russia has no idea a shoot down was a possibility. Russia certainly seems to have been taken by surprise, which points away from the separatists and towards Ukraine.

No, it points towards Russian government stupidity. If they were smart they wouldn't have supplied bunch of thugs with Buk system. And yes, they did supply them with one, that's a fact. It's also a fact that pro Russians were the ones who shot down MH17, they practically admitted it in twitter.

There's absolutely no question whatsoever about which side shot down the aircraft.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:13 pm

Mandala499 I really respect your analysis here.

The information that Malaysia had actually analyzed some shrapnel and believe it to be from a surface to air missile has just come out. I hadn't seen it until after your post.

I can't see any reason why Malaysia would dissemble on this issue, so it is probably settled that MH17 was brought down by a surface to air missile, most likely a Buk.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 138):
f it was, say a Mig-29, yes it has the radar-guided missile, but if it was following/tailing MH17 and shot it, again, the missile would not cause a frontal aspect damage (eg: entry wounds on the cockpit ", and we would be seeing fragments on the tail fin... we didn't. So if a Mig-29 was trailing or shadowing MH17, it would still have to attack from the front, and there's no need for a 30mm cannon hit. A frontal aspect radar guided missile hit would yield the same result as what we're seeing.

However, just in case there is a reversal of Malaysia's conclusions, I would like to suggest one other way the 30mm holes could have been made. (You might have already thought of this.)

It could be that an air to air missile from behind hits the engine and the A/C breaks apart and spins as it falls.
As the A/C falls and spins the aggressor A/C fires its cannons as MH17 falls past it. At some point the nose of the A/C is facing the aggressor. (In this case an examination of the angle of incidence of the cannon fire might have different entry and exit angles consistent with a spin. i.e. this hypothesis could be tested (rejected or accepted) by examination of MH17.)

I should also note that Malaysia is still asking for the Missing Ukranian ATC tapes: http://www.nst.com.my/node/21260
So perhaps the information sharing is not as transparent as we would expect.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 144):
The soundwaves do, but not the sonic boom

 checkmark 
Yes I agree. Well spotted!

[Edited 2014-08-09 06:29:29]
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 147):
It could be that an air to air missile from behind hits the engine and the A/C breaks apart and spins as it falls.
As the A/C falls and spins the aggressor A/C fires its cannons as MH17 falls past it. At some point the nose of the A/C is facing the aggressor. (In this case an examination of the angle of incidence of the cannon fire might have different entry and exit angles consistent with a spin. i.e. this hypothesis could be tested (rejected or accepted) by examination of MH17.)

The different sizes of the holes on the left cockpit does not agree with cannon damage. The single big hole does, the rest, doesn't.
If an AAM hits the engine, we would not get "sudden and massive decompression" frpm the FDR, and the crew is likely to have made mayday calls. An AAM to the engine would be obvious as soon as you compile the FDR data.

The argument for air-to-air that can stand based on the damage alone, makes it relatively limited to a frontal aspect radar guided missile... which is not too different from the BUK argument.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 147):
I should also note that Malaysia is still asking for the Missing Ukranian ATC tapes:

If they got something to hide I'm not surprised.
There could only be 2 parties that can shoot this plane down with a BUK... 1. The Ukrainian, 2. The rebels. I don't think the Russians would be that stupid to do the dirty work themselves and screw up.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 147):
Yes I agree. Well spotted!

Don't worry too much, it's a common mistake... and it's hell to explain.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 148):
There could only be 2 parties that can shoot this plane down with a BUK... 1. The Ukrainian, 2. The rebels. I don't think the Russians would be that stupid to do the dirty work themselves and screw up.

I agree.

I doubt the ability of the separatists to capture and operate a Buk.
I also think the Russians did not believe the separatists had or could operate a Buk.

The wind change in the US disposition on this issue is itself revealing.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos