KirkSeattle
Posts: 327
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 149):
The wind change in the US disposition on this issue is itself revealing.

What's the change? And provide a link while you're at it.

Russia just became less free press worthy, particularly for bloggers.

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-inter...it-easy-putin-stay-popular-1651078

Quoting mark787 (Reply 136):
One last thing, stating that MH017 was considerably absent of American passengers is not at all shocking when one considers that the vast majority of passengers from the US traveling to the eastern region of Asia will either transit on direct flights to Asian destination such as Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, etc and transfer there... or transit through the US west coast via airports such as LAX or SFO. SQ would be one of the oddities where one would travel east to FRA from JFK to get to SIN. Middle eastern carriers like Emirates and Qatar are trying to steal the show by routing through DXB and DOH, but Americans are usually rather shy of flying through these areas. Some might even use an European carrier as well and transit through say FRA or AMS, but air fares (from my previous experience), were rather expensive with those carriers.

  

Going non-stop to Asia and transfer or through a west coast gateway is most likely for Americans to get to KUL.

edit: added non-stop "to Asia and transfer"

[Edited 2014-08-09 09:10:53]
 
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pvjin
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 149):
I doubt the ability of the separatists to capture and operate a Buk.
I also think the Russians did not believe the separatists had or could operate a Buk.

Ukraine has compulsory military service, it's more than likely that some of the separatists had previous experience from operating a Buk system. Also it's entirely possible Russians supplied them with one.

Russians knew they had a Buk system, they just didn't think they would be stupid enough to shoot down aircraft without identifying it first. Separatists themselves posted pictures of their Buk in twitter days before MH17 got shot down.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aesma
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 133):
You are still fighting old battles, while the world has moved on.

Actually "New Russia" is fighting the old battle by trying to make the USSR 2.0, creating cold war 2.0 in the process.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:40 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 143):
These Clowns dont even bother to camouflage . The scary part is, Soviet Union and DDR Mk 2.0 are alive and kicking and obviously Play a part in this Crash of a maialysian airliner. I don't say intentionally, but someone goofed up and instead of playing it open and admitting the horrible mistake., the old KGB Division "Desinformation" Comes in with the old comrades like Biedermann (the Brandtstifter) & Co.

And their propagandists are trying to take over this "aviation" thread.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 149):
I doubt the ability of the separatists to capture and operate a Buk.
I also think the Russians did not believe the separatists had or could operate a Buk.

Then you totally ignore that facts - or are, as is your strategy, attempting to distract everyone else from the facts
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...created-conditions-shoot-down.html

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 144):

The soundwaves do, but not the sonic boom, which is a convergence of soundwaves creating a pressure shockwave, which is a Mach Cone after beyond Mach 1. Where the Mach Cone passes you, you hear the sonic boom. Now, the cone does not travel backwards. It's basic high school physics.

You don't think these conspiracy-theory-spinners are going to let somethimng as mundane as as high school physics interrupt their disinformation campaign, do you?      
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:43 pm

There are so many real Alpha men here.
You are big.
You are confident.
You are embodiment of freedom and democracy values.
Five eyes...or Five fingers ...or whatever else. Plus your aligned 25 tentacles, big and small.

Why can't you bear just a couple of opponents for a change?
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 154):
There are so many real Alpha men here.
You are big.
You are confident.
You are embodiment of freedom and democracy values.
Five eyes...or Five fingers ...or whatever else. Plus your aligned 25 tentacles, big and small.

Why can't you bear just a couple of opponents for a change?

Actually I think they're looking for worthy opponents.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 154):
Why can't you bear just a couple of opponents for a change?

Because your attempt at spin here is so incompetent and dishonest.

You may not know it but I am far from a right wing nationalist American. In 99 out of a 100 conversations with other Americans I would be very likely to take the side of the Russians (at least in my opponents eyes) in any kind of debate about foreign policy.

But the act of shooting down an airliner full of young people on their way for a holiday is over the top. And spewing shameless propaganda including the telling of lies in an effort to cover that fact up is disgusting behavior.

If you really are a friend of Russia, you should be displaying humility and apologetic behavior here. But instead the "friends of Russia" here are just exhibiting the same blockheaded behavior that has kept their country a pariah among civilized peoples for the last 100 years (actually longer than that.)
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:57 pm

Tailskid.

If you only knew how many hours I spent on WaPo discussing all aspects of the U.S. domestic policies, you would be surprised.
Sometimes I ask myself which of two countries I know better.

The MH17 issue is exactly this: it consolidated left, leaning left, indeps, right and TP supporters on one, an allegedly righteous universal platform of distrust/hatred to Russia.

And what's happening is an attempt to execute a massive, landslide-like change in the mindset of Americans and Europeans.

That's sad. The elites have been making billions of people divided in a Huntington-style manner.
It is an attempt to downgrade people to the basic "We vs. them."

This is not a political forum. In this respect, it reflects an average guy's reactions.

Nevertheless, my guts feeling is that this phase will be over. Though I tend to be an optimist.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 154):
Five eyes...or Five fingers ...or whatever else. Plus your aligned 25 tentacles, big and small.

Wow! The Russian media must have really given you some misconceptions about how Westerners look.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 154):
Why can't you bear just a couple of opponents for a change?

Your question points out the crux of your problem and the disrespect you get: no one here should be looking for "opponents"; everyone should be looking at the facts we already know; applying that knowledge to the situation; and determining what is an appropriate response to it. Instead, you (and about three real propogandists here) insist on ignoring the facts, creating your own false scenatios, and blaming everyone else - rather than the true perpetrators of the crime. Your attempts to cover-up for your beloved Putin and his cronies leads you to make outlandish and unsupportable theories, and only adds to the disrespect you feel here. In truth, pylon, you are only embarassing yourself with these continuing affronts to the truth.

You asked the question - I hope you can accept the answer.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 159):

Look, товарищ, we all understand that Russia did not wantonly shoot down MH17. We have all reasons to believe that the separatists did not want to shoot down MH17 too. At the moment, our consensus is that they shot it down due to carelessness.

Without any problems, Mr. Putin could say something along the lines of:

"We Russians deeply regret the shootdown of MH17, and we deplore the loss of the countless lives. We are still ascertaining from where the pro-Russian separatists got the Buk launcher, and we are trying to look into who exactly sat at the controls of that launcher. If criminal acts have been commited, we take honest and earnest measures to punish those responsible."

Assuming it were Russian soldiers launching the missile, it would be even worse - miltary honor would be at stake. After all, many crewmen of the USS Vincennes still regret the day the Iran Air plane was shot down.

But what do we hear?

Nothing that improves Europe's, Malaysia's or Australia's trust.


David

[Edited 2014-08-09 13:28:17]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:38 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 161):
Look, товарищ, we all understand that Russia did not wantonly shoot down MH17. We have all reasons to believe that the separatists did not want to shoot down MH17 too. At the moment, our consensus is that they shot it down due to carelessness.

You may be correct that these are majority opinions but they are not unanimous opinions.

This wasn't just poppycock; I stand behind this analysis which I posted above.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 65):
I would like to make a point here; above I raised the question of whether the operators of this particular BUK system were tricked into, or setup to, shoot down an airliner by their superiors (or maybe by one particularly malicious individual.) I notice that the details we are examining here support that premise.

We can see that the BUK TELAR that engaged MH-17 fired its missile at close to the earliest physical opportunity to do so; it disn't catch the 777 as it was almost passing out of range, or even at a midpoint of the effective range; the BUK TELAR clearly engaged MH-17 at close to the earliest possible engagement point.

This means that the BUK radar was almost certainly locked on to MH-17 before it came within range of the missile. Working backwards from here, we can surmise that the BUK radar was searching the particular part of the sky which belonged to airway L980 looking for a target. We can make this assumption from the fact that the TELAR radar is a tracking radar, not a search radar, and as such it has a very narrow view of the sky both in azimuth and in elevation.

It is possible of course that the acquisition of MH-17 was just "luck", the operators were blindly searching to the west and came across MH-17 by chance,

But it is also possible that the dupes operating the TELAR were told where to set up the launcher and were told which direction to scan for targets. If one wants to accept that MH-17 was targeted by random chance, they also have to consider that the location chosen for the launcher which was within a few kilometers of the intersections of airways; M70, L69 and L980 was also an act of "chance."

The United States has had its Edward Lansdale types trying to escalate tensions to suit their personal preferences for US policy, I suspect we have a sighting of a Russian counterpart to that kind of behavior.

IMO Lansdale should have been sent to prison for his actions in Vietnam in the early 50s. Here is a chance for Russia to leapfrog the west, or at least the US in the morality theme.

If I were a Russian I would be demanding a real investigation of how that TELAR wound up where it was scanning the L980 airway for targets. If this was an intentional setup on the part of some individual or faction of the Russian Military, as a Russian citizen I would want them hung by their heels.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 144):

Amongst all the political blather, your voice on these threads is still one of the most reasonable ones.
(And whilst I may not always fully agree with you, I definitely always respect your opinion.)

If your time permits, and you feel like it, would you be able to give us a run-down on what you think are the real facts that we know so far. I for one would really appreciate that.

Many on these threads challenge others to come up with the "facts" and with "evidence" when they themselves don't know any better (or less even) and all they are doing is blast others with their political opinions.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:05 pm

Wait, so now Mandala is a propagandist? I can't keep up. Lol

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Scipio
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 110):
BUK is pretty loud.

Buk launches etc.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXScnEKaP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Ea97DTwA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMhaFntrU

Except for the immediate vicinity of the launch, the sound is pretty much like an overflying jet. The Buk gets up to high speed and high altitude very quickly...

Now consider the evidence pointing toward the launch site being near Pervomaiskyi just south of Snizhne. This is just about 10 kilometers north of an area that has seen constant heavy fighting during the weeks before and since the MH17 crash, including air raids by the Ukrainian Air Force. In this area, the sounds of distant artillery and overflying jets cannot have been very unusual at the time MH17 was shot down. It would take someone with special skills to identify a Buk launch among these many background noises, unless he or she was very close to the launch site.

The sky was overcast, so the missile likely disappeared behind clouds within seconds of its launch, before the sound of its launch had reached people and made them look up...

So, it is unlikely that many people observed the launch and identified it as a BUK / SAM launch.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 161):
We are still ascertaining from where the pro-Russian separatists got the Buk launcher, and we are trying to look into who exactly sat at the controls of that launcher.

The problem is, Putin most likely knows exactly where the Buk and its crew came from. It is not his basic instinct to deal with problems by being transparent and revealing the truth... To the contrary, he is an obsessive-compulsive liar.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:36 am

Hi All,

This thread the last couple of days has gotten a little out of hand. There is a lot of disrespectful or flamebait posts that have been removed. Please keep our rules in mind when replying to the thread. Any trolling or disrespectful posts will not be tolerated. While we obviously allow criticism, please make sure it is constructive.

Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:18 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 164):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Ea97DTwA8

Based on this video, You won't hear a thing within 10-15 seconds of the launch..

Quoting Scipio (Reply 164):
This is just about 10 kilometers north of an area that has seen constant heavy fighting during the weeks before and since the MH17 crash, including air raids by the Ukrainian Air Force. In this area, the sounds of distant artillery and overflying jets cannot have been very unusual at the time MH17 was shot down. It would take someone with special skills to identify a Buk launch among these many background noises, unless he or she was very close to the launch site.

This would enable a frontal-left aspect of the missile attack from the view point of MH17.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 153):
You don't think these conspiracy-theory-spinners are going to let somethimng as mundane as as high school physics interrupt their disinformation campaign, do you?

Well, I know a troll "who calls others trolls" who just stamped my forehead with the label "propagandist straight out of a marxist textbook" in violation of Forum Rules 1.a, 1.b. 1.c. 1.e, and 1.f.    That's actually a new one in my almost 13 years on a.net forums.

The irony is that he's saying it's a missile and I'm putting arguments to support that and I get stamped a propagandist... Absolutely hilarious and I with over 10 years of experience moderating another aviation forum, I don't envy our moderators here when controversial topics become hot, but let them handle it and us not "muddying-the-waters".

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 161):
If your time permits, and you feel like it, would you be able to give us a run-down on what you think are the real facts that we know so far. I for one would really appreciate that.

I'll try when I have time (a scarce commodity these days)... unless the "anti-marxist thugs" get to me and put me under a false Stalinist style mock trial first... Oh hang on... did someone just tried?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:52 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 166):
Well, I know a troll "who calls others trolls" who just stamped my forehead with the label "propagandist straight out of a marxist textbook

You twisted that quote like an old hand.
My words: (exact words)
Quoting tailskid (Reply 162):
WoW An out and out propagandist promotes a closet propagandist to be the spokesperson for truth and reality. As if straight out of an old Marxist textbook.

I stamped your forehead with nothing.
I described the technique as being from a Marxist textbook.

If you read the above posts you will see that the Russian separatist apologists (the ones who had been trying to muddy the water as to who shot down MH-17 and murdered those 298 people) had lost control of the dialogue in this forum and felt a need to switch the conversation to a more banal subject because too many posters were heaping scorn on their cheesy propaganda attempts.

The apologist above knew that you are friendly to their cause so I naturally assumed that he was calling for you to change the subject.

If he or she had some other intent, I profusely apologize to you.

BTW
How did you manage to type all the above with both hands on your hips?
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:05 am

It all is a misunderstanding.
The moderator deleted the Mandala's original post.
As a result, we all have seen the words as quoting.
Thus, it is absolutely unclear to whom the Mandala's words related.

As to my forehead - the stamp is terrible, visible and painful  
Alpha inflicted me a terrible emotional stamp/trauma.
I think I have a case. Do I have a case?
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:39 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 167):
I stamped your forehead with nothing.

Well, from:

Quoting tailskid (Reply 162):
WoW An out and out propagandist promotes a closet propagandist to be the spokesperson for truth and reality. As if straight out of an old Marxist textbook.

Which one am I? The "out and out" propagandist or the "closet propagandist"?

Quoting tailskid (Reply 167):
The apologist above knew that you are friendly to their cause so I naturally assumed that he was calling for you to change the subject.

If he or she had some other intent, I profusely apologize to you.

1. I stated previously, that the ones who shot the airplane down is either the Ukrainians OR the Pro-Russian separatists.
2. I do not take sides on who I think out of those two shot MH17 down, my views are consistent in that as it stands with the available information at the moment, it's only either of those two.
3. I dismissed claims that it was a Ukrainian Su-25 that shot the MH17 down by stating the limitations of the performance of the Su-25 would not make it possible.
4. I dismissed the claim that just "because no one saw or heard the missile, it can't be BUK" because "surely someone would have heard the sonic boom", by explaining some high-school physics on the behaviour of mach cones. This therefore further weaken the argument that a Ukrainian jetfighter shot MH17 down.

And you're saying that makes it friendly to the Pro-Russian Separatist Apologists' cause?
I fail to see how that justifies referring to me as an "out and out propagandist" or the "closet propagandist".
I do hope you are familiar with forum rules 1.a, 1.b. 1.c. 1.e, and 1.f.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 167):
How did you manage to type all the above with both hands on your hips?

I don't... In case you're wondering. I put my hands on a table in front of a keyboard, thank you.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 138):
OK, now can someone throw me a better conspiracy theory on the execution of this tragedy?

The latest theory is that the intended target was the Aeroflot aircraft flying close by. Being a Russian aircraft and crashing into the Russian Rebel territory would allow Russia to keep the debris field away from western eyes. Russia would then blame the Ukraine and have grounds for a Russian invasion of the Ukraine. If the BUK had been taken to the 'Right' Pervomaisk village (there are 3 villages in Ukraine by that name) to the west of Donesk then the Aeroflot flight would've been downed instead. The Russian crew of the BUK went to the Pervomaisk village that is east of Donesk half way between Donesk and the Russian border.
 
mark787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:04 am

The use of a 30mm weapon would not have caused the break up of the 777 unless one of the bullets would have punctured the fuel tank causing it to explode. In addition to this, if that were used, the tell tale signs would have been evident (sadly) on the victim's bodies. As gruesome as it was to see, there were some intact enough to have easily seen injuries sustained from bullet fragments, and many didn't show that but rather severe and fatal injuries related to a very high impact most likely to rapid catastrophic decompression of the aircraft, as well as impact related to the crash itself. the damages to the fragments of the front part of the aircraft very clearly show what are holes that are consistent with shrapnel dispersed from a surface to air missile. Again, the direction that MH017 was traveling would automatically place the missile launch site to the north eastern side of the aircraft. Assuming that Putin has things slightly in control around the eastern portion of Ukraine, I would say that it would be very contradicting to him if the Ukraine military managed to launch a Buk missile in such close proximities to it's border and not have any serious repercussions.

This aside, looking up the stats of an Su22, the theory of a fighter jet shadowing MH017 is automatically dismissed from possible causes. Then, this eliminates the shoot down theory by another aircraft. You end up with the same conclusion regardless of what you read up on.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:09 am

Yeah..there was something like that.
Wait.
But Russian MoD took that shot and pointed out that it was made in Krasnoarneysk (billboard with KIA with dealership address,) which was taken by the UA army quite long ago.
No, this conspiracy is at C- level.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:10 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 171):
A monster looking decent. It's important for a professional propagandist, right?

Aren't propagandists usually hunched over typewriters in dark corners of basement offices?

Pylon I apologize for calling you a propagandist, I can see that you are for real, possibly sometimes a little too much steeped in wishful thinking but you do seem to be posting from what you believe.

I can't say the same for a few others who have been posting here of late, but I shouldn't have lumped you in with them,.

Over here the propagandists are all very well dressed and sit in rather plush offices with a liberal sprinkling of potted palms and ferns. They call them advertising executives. But you already know about that.
 
mark787
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:38 am

Sorry, I typed in the dark. I meant to say SU25 not 22. I have to consider going to sleep earlier. my mistake.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:57 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 177):
Bali is our usual place to get together and planning how to destroy the Bretton Woods system.

We just go there for the Blue Mushroom soup.
 
MicFish
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:03 pm

Let's get back on track:

rtlnieuws.nl is reporting (09 augustus 2014 20:21) about the status of the search efforts by the dutch forensic experts.

Only 3,5 of 60 km2 searched so far by them.

The debris field impacts are suggesting that the downfall happened from approximately north-west to south east.

The following map gives an overview of the debris field including the final crash location depicting the known findings.

Here the (google) translation for the NL legend description:

total shaded area is searched by Ukrainians, according to their own statements
yellow circles - Earth's surface impacts
green - searched by the international team
red - access denied
orange - area not searched (by international team)

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/bestande...40809-mh17-kaart-fasering-1600.gif

Link to the rtlnieuws.nl article in NL

Same link google translated to EN
 
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PW100
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 117):
Here is an interesting article discussing the details that suggest the Separatists did not have a working Buk.

I remain skeptical that they did not have working surface-to-air high-altitude missile system(s).
Can someone describe how several high-flying military transport aircraft (An-26s?), Su-25, and just this week a Mig-29, were downed as claimed by the separatists themselves? Highly doubt that AK-47 has that reach or accuracy . . . ?

Thanks,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
PanHAM
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 131):
Besides, if Germans start separate DDR Germans from BRD Germans PUBLICLY , we have a problem.

In West Germany we always had the right to an own opinion and we could always voice that opinion. The East Germans can do that since 1990. Most of the, but there are always the old comrades who plant stories about an airliner Crash that do not uphold with reality as we have found out not only in this Forum.

The difference between then and now is they do not even go to jail for that, which is perfetctly alright.

When I and others here highlight the fact that an SU25 cannot have shot down MH17, than this is not a division between east and west. It is my perrsonal opinion and only my opinion. How can that be a Problem? Prove me wrong if you can.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:31 pm

1. I believe no social net "evidence," images made by cell-phones or anything like that should be seriously considered.
2. We have a clear picture made from the Russian satellite showing dislocation of three vehicles.

Without pictures made from the U.S. satellite (which was above the same territory) we will never find out the truth.
The satellite images are the only evidence that can prove anything.
Because the angle deduced from the cockpit part of the airplane will be extremely close to the UAF position and the position of the alleged single launch vehicle of the rebels.

The satellite images can be easily verified via satellite position/shadows/weather.

Without U.S. assistance in this case, the whole investigation will end up by stating that the aircraft was affected by explosion
matching the characteristics of the BUK missile.

3. SU-25. I would draw your attention to the fact that the Russian MoD never claimed that the aircraft attacked MH17.
Russian MoD has just stated its presence.
Needless to say that the Russian military authorities could not confuse SU-25 with any other aircraft type.

4. There are many additional factors, which could be brought into this discussion. Like Ukrainian ATC meta-data and ATC-MH17 exchange.
However, this information is not released yet.

I would like to avoid speculations based on anything but hard evidence.
In my opinion, we don't have enough proof to make any conclusion(s) at the moment.

[Edited 2014-08-10 10:38:43]
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alfa164
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 189):
1. I believe no social net "evidence," images made by cell-phones or anything like that should be seriously considered.

You are awfully selective in your acceptance of evidence - or, perhaps more correctly, you wish to deny the credible evidence that is clearly out there, and are searching for an excuse to disregard it.

You believe no "social net evidence"... you do understand that the "social net" - in particular, VKontakte (VK), has been the method the "separatists" have used to communicate with the outside world (and, in particular, with Russians and the Russian media) since they began their campaign in the Ukraine? If you don't believe in any "social media", then how would you ever see their words or grasp what they are doing? "Social Media" is the only communication they use.

You won't accept "images made by cell-phones"... how about images made by Nikon cameras? Sony DSLR's? Canon EOS? You do realize that those cameras use the same imaging system as a cell phone - albeit usually with more pixels - don't you? It is like blaming the messenger; are you blaming (and deriding) the system used to take the photo?

By the way, I enjoyed your photo; you look like a young Putin! I hope it wasn't taken with a cell phone... I would have to doubt its veracity, wouldn't I? And since A.net is a "social media" website for those of us who are interested in aircraft, I guess I should disregard anything you say here, too...   
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tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 189):
. I believe no social net "evidence," images made by cell-phones or anything like that should be seriously considered.

I don't see why not. Especially the Social Media stuff from the VKontake site which was recorded in real time.

It's kinda hard to fake that.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:06 pm

From my point of view, his only weak spot is his son.
When the guy is mumbling - it is something.

And yes, C-SPAN is one of my favorite channels.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:27 pm

I obviously don't have a comment which would satisfy you.

Do I believe that Russian officials could give one TELAR to the rebel? NO.
Do I believe that the rebels could take one UAF TELAR? Quite possible.
Could the rebels launch the missile having a very limited information from TELAR's own radar? Hard to imagine - but possible.
If they had no idea that their airspace was full of commercial airliners for three days.

I don't know. I don't dismiss anything at this point.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:08 am

Here's a Russian site that estimates the location of the missile hit at 48° 7'24.35"N 38°32'13.15"E

That's almost 2 miles closer to the launch site than the Paris Match prediction.
http://sf.uploads.ru/cUoK2.jpg
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:22 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 192):
C2. Through independent verification (thanks to the journalists who went there to see it), it is likely that the launch site is SE of Torez (South of Snizhne) at N47°58'27" E38°45'37", based on the photograph given in B5. However, this doesn't rule out missile being launched from another location. Previously, it was thought that the likely site was N47°58'52" E38°45'24"

This is correct and even a Russian site I came across agrees with it. Those two locations are only a few hundred feet apart; they are just two representations of the same location.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 192):
D2. It is likely that Ukraine was inciting a shootdown as it is Ukraine's interest to bring more parties into the conflict either through direct involvement or through indirect action. This is sufficient motive, and whoever did it have resulted in Russia restraining itself from it's threats of outright invasion "in the protection of pro-Russian people", and enabling the Ukrainians to win some ground since the shootdown of MH17.

I can't imagine any reason to give this idea any credence. There is nothing at all to support this or indicate this. It appears to pulled out of thin air. This would be a hugely Machiavellian scheme with only imaginary benefits but disastrous, possibly nation ending consequences, if it was ever leaked.

The Ukrainian military situation was well in hand at the time, the people of Ukraine were supporting the war effort and the rebuilding of the army was well along its way. The proof of all this is the current situation with Donetsk completely surrounded and cut off from re-supply. There was an excellent synopsis of the military situation posted in the MH-17 political thread this morning.

Russia is not at all restrained, in the last week they are reported to have moved 30,000 troops to the border area and are currently holding military maneuvers. I can't imagine why anyone would have bet heavily that an airline shootdown would have slowed them down.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 192):
D3. I think the "intercepted call claiming they shot down an aircraft" may be false

Again, that's not a "call" that was a message on an internet site. I'll post this again:

The post (at 1522 GMT) by Igor Strelkovo aka Igor Girkin on the VKontake social media site after the shootdown (at 1415 GMT) bragging and taking credit for it is hard to ignore. He said it fell near Torez, near Progress mine, in an open field and that "civilians were not injured." It was posted so fast they didn't wait to confirm what was shot down. The post was changed at 1610 GMT after it was discovered to be a civilian airliner, it now basically said...'it wasn't us.' At 1656 GMT he added ... we don't have such weapons.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 192):
D4. The Russians may not be lying when they said there could be a military aircraft tailing MH17, this is an age old trick in warfare, in this case, a MiG-29 or Su-27 are likely candidates. Do this with an ESM pod and you'd get the EW situation of the theatre.

The Russians were specific as to type. They said it was an SU-25. Which could not "follow" a 777.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 192):
D5. Misidentification of the aircraft to be a military aircraft instead of a civilian airliner can be done to confuse inexperienced operator at the BUK's radar command module. MH17 would be transmitting IFF/Transponder squawk at mode 3/A. Most eastern bloc combat aircraft (except for the later built ones) operate in Mode2, which cannot be changed by the crew in flight and only has On and Off for the IFF code. They could have sent something to tail MH17, knew they were being tracked by a BUK system's radar, switch their military IFF on, once they got an acquisition and fire control radar warning on their ESM, they'd switch off their IFF and bug out... and all this could be done without MH17 knowing anything about it. I find it extremely hard that the pro-Russian separatists would just shoot down anything they see because I'm sure the Russians would have told them "the Ukrainians are still sending civilians over your airspace"... unless these BuK guys that fired it were total and utter baffoons, in which case, the "intercepted call" was valid.

A BUK TELAR does not have IFF capabilities, that function resides in the command module. A BUK TELAR consists of (only) a tracking radar and the missiles.
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:59 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 184):
Again, that's not a "call" that was a message on an internet site. I'll post this again:

There was a supposed call posted on the internet not long after the tweet, this was claimed to be an intercepted call. This is what I am refuting, not the so called "message on an internet site" you mentioned.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 184):
The Russians were specific as to type. They said it was an SU-25. Which could not "follow" a 777.

This will remain in question on why they were adamant it was an Su-25, while on the other hand, Ukraine has to also release ATC tapes to answer allegations of MH17 asking for FL350 but was told to remain at FL330. Both sides have a lot to answer.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 184):
A BUK TELAR does not have IFF capabilities, that function resides in the command module. A BUK TELAR consists of (only) a tracking radar and the missiles.

If you read what I wrote:
"Misidentification of the aircraft to be a military aircraft instead of a civilian airliner can be done to confuse inexperienced operator at the BUK's radar command module." Thank you for reiterating what I said.

Quoting tailskid (Reply 183):
Russia is not at all restrained, in the last week they are reported to have moved 30,000 troops to the border area and are currently holding military maneuvers.

NY Times seems to think Ukraine is betting on Russia restraining (published August 9)... http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/world/europe/ukraine.html
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 185):
NY Times seems to think Ukraine is betting on Russia restraining (published August 9).

I don't know how well you understood that NYT piece but here's today's Reuters lead on the Ukraine situation. Maybe it will be more clear to you.

(Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Monday that Russia is sending an aid convoy to eastern Ukraine despite urgent Western warnings against using humanitarian help as a pretext for an invasion.

With Ukraine reporting Russia has massed 45,000 troops on its border, NATO said there was a "high probability" that Moscow could intervene militarily in the country's east, where Kiev forces are closing in on pro-Russian separatists.

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso delivered a blunt message in a telephone call with Putin on Monday. "President Barroso warned against any unilateral military actions in Ukraine, under any pretext, including humanitarian," the Commission said in a statement.



Also, could you supply a link to the "supposed call posted on the internet not long after the tweet"?
I have no Idea what you are referring to. But then if you doubt the veracity of something nobody has ever heard of I guss it can't be all that important.
 
4holer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 186):

Also, could you supply a link to the "supposed call posted on the internet not long after the tweet"?
I have no Idea what you are referring to. But then if you doubt the veracity of something nobody has ever heard of I guss it can't be all that important.

I'm on your side of this, but you are being waaaay too aggressive and snarky towards Mandala499.
You can find that conversation all over the earliest of the crash threads, probably #1.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 187):
You can find that conversation all over the earliest of the crash threads, probably #1.

Then maybe you can supply a link to it.

I have followed this story in detail from the first day, I have followed several reputable websites including this one. I have used Google translate to help me understand French, Dutch and Ukrainian language - but I have never heard of whatever he is talking about.

If it is connected with the internet it cannot be a reference to the plane spotters west of the launch site as that was separate from the internet postings of the separatists.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 187):

  
I've lost count of the number of really knowledgeable and experienced contributors who've abandoned a.net in the last couple of years following repeated insults. The forum is poorer as a result.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
MicFish
Posts: 13
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 186):
Also, could you supply a link to the "supposed call posted on the internet not long after the tweet"?
I have no Idea what you are referring to. But then if you doubt the veracity of something nobody has ever heard of I guss it can't be all that important.

It is probably this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjJzBvfAtA
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 188):
Then maybe you can supply a link to it.

Try thread 3, post 53 et seq.

Perhaps you could offer mandala499 an apology.

[Edited 2014-08-11 12:15:06]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 191):
Perhaps you could offer mandala499 an apology.

To remove some of the fog that some people seem to prefer to work under, here is the post you are referring to:

Quoting M1chl (Reply 12):

Hey guy, there is a video floating around youtube (it gets deleted every time), it captures conversation between separatist. Here is transcript from that video (its obviously in Russian). Sorry if thats already being discussed, just strikes me as the most probable cause, so here it is.

I'm seeing another report to back this up at KyivPost.

Seems like the separatists fired a Buk or similar and asked questions later. They are assuming that any plane over their disputed area. Here is a transcript released by SBU (Ukrainian Intelligence Service) between rebels and their Russian masters regarding Cossak's who pulled the trigger

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...sation-full-transcript-356545.html

QUOTED BELOW
"igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Grek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on."
ogy!



Thanks for the link, I hadn't run across that story before, or I had forgotten about it (along with every body else) that is far from anything central to the MH-17 story, and it was the original poster's responsibility to describe what he was takling about and provide a reference to it. This was not the first time Mandella had referred to that story and had been questioned about it. This was not your job to provide the link. I owe mandella no apology.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:43 pm

@tailskid

What you said was:

Quoting tailskid (Reply 186):
if you doubt the veracity of something nobody has ever heard of I guss it can't be all that important.
Quoting tailskid (Reply 192):
I owe mandella no apology.

I guess civility is a lost virtue (along with the politeness to spell someone's name correctly).
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 192):
I hadn't run across that story before, or I had forgotten about it (along with every body else)

Not everybody, I remember it quite clearly as it came up very early in the discussion. As a matter of fact, it's probably the main reason (or one of them) that people think the separatists shot the aircraft down and has been referred to quite often.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 197):
Oh my gosh...

On this page I have stated facts and he has stated his version of facts. I don't see that he has come out ahead on "the facts."

I haven't read the AF 447 thread, but I have read him in the MH-370 thread.
 
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PW100
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 196):
Mandella (a handle not a name) . . .

Hey tailskidmark, can you please explain to non-native English speakers what is meant here? As I can't see any reason for name-calling here.

Thanks,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 194):
Not everybody, I remember it quite clearly as it came up very early in the discussion. As a matter of fact, it's probably the main reason (or one of them) that people think the separatists shot the aircraft down and has been referred to quite often.

I was aware of the Ukrainian intelligence report, in that I knew the gist of its contents. But I never sought out its source and it may be that I glanced at that post on thread 3 and intentionally didn't bother to read it.

Whatever comes from any intelligence agency is suspect, whatever comes from something as obscure as a Ukrainian intelligence agency can be considered as little more than gossip. That information was taken with a grain of salt by most everyone it seems. It wasn't central to anything anyway - it couldn't be used for a citation to prove anything.

I haven't seen many references to the content, and that is the only reference to its source that I know of. Russian sympathizers would never use it, and people looking for objective facts couldn't rely on it; so in my mind anyway it was just a piece of extraneous information.

Again, the onus of clarity of communication is on the person bringing the subject up. On the internet or anywhere else.
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 197):
Hey tailskidmark, can you please explain to non-native English speakers what is meant here? As I can't see any reason for name-calling here.

If you're like everyone else you have a name and I'm sure it's not PW100. PW100 is your handle on this site.

If you don't see any reason for name-calling then you probably shouldn't engage in name calling - right?
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 5744
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RE: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crashes In Ukraine Part 9

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 196):
On this page I have stated facts and he has stated his version of facts. I don't see that he has come out ahead on "the facts."

There is only one set of facts, not a "version of facts". His interpretation of the facts always amazes me, and that's why I respect him.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

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