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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 74):
"Worst" position? By what standard?
Quoting enilria (Reply 69):
I think DL is aggressively growing there, although they have gotten somewhat sidetracked with SEA. I think AA aggressively responded to DL which coupled with the likely future of PHX means they are committed to LAX. UA has not shown interest in defending their position IMHO.

I think I laid it out well there. UA has not shown interest in defending the market. If you don't do that in a place like LAX where there is no clear leader, you will lose share quickly.
 
Thomaas
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 97):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 108):
The 3x2 layout in Economy doesn't help either, no one likes a middle seat.

This makes the least sense, though. If people hate middle seats, doesn't it make it much better to have half as many of them on the 717/M88/M90 as compared to a 319 or 320 by switching from 3x3 to 3x2? You seem to be mixing and matching your arguments inconsistently.

I was comparing that part to a regional jet, if you're going to have the noisy engines in the back of the plane, then you might as well not give me a middle seat.
 
ouboy79
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
These routes were getting awfully long and thin to make sense. Both overnight at the outstations, which is probably the ideal schedule for O&D traffic, but the return flights still don't arrive NYC until mid-morning, making a day trip difficult. Meanwhile, they do not connect well to Europe flights eastbound, so that takes out a good chunk of connecting passengers on shorter EWR routes, they practically overfly ORD, and IAH and DEN aren't terrible backtracks for a lot of folks. Even with a fair amount of O&D demand (~100 PDEW TUL-NYC; ~160 PDEW OKC-NYC), I can see why UA has trouble. UA, by the way, got about a third of the O&D traffic in both markets in Q413.

Looks like the discussion is all for nothing. Flights return in March and the pull down is just due to local construction at EWR. We'll see if they change their mind on resuming service.
 
klwright69
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:58 pm

And I am not surprised IAH-GJT is going away also. Talk about a small market.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:30 pm

Since there is so much discussion about United and its bases, by coincidence there was a flight ops document that came out as part of crew base rebid that compares UA 2014 flying to 2011 by hub. Might be of interest here.

Avg. Mainline Daily Depatures by Hub - July 2011 - July 2014
CLE - 36 - 25
DEN - 164 - 137
EWR - 213 - 216
GUM - 12 - 14
IAD - 102 - 84
IAH - 289 - 253
LAX - 116 - 120
ORD - 229 - 214
SFO - 154 - 191

=
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jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):

Wow SFO got a lot of mainline love
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:10 am

So who is 4B flying CVN-DFW???
 
PHX787
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:39 am

Some of those UA flights are operated on some heavy machinery.... I wonder what's going on there.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*4B CVN-DFW SEP 0>3 OCT 0>3 NOV 0>3 DEC 0>3 JAN 0>3 FEB 0>3 MAR 0>3 APR 0>3

Who dat? 4B is a name I don't recognize.

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*AA DFW-CCS SEP 0.1>0 OCT 0.1>0 NOV 0.2>0 DEC 0.1>0 JAN 0.2>0 FEB 0.1>0 MAR 0.1>0 APR 0.1>0
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*AA MIA-MAR SEP 1.0>0.3 OCT 1.0>0.3 NOV 1.0>0.3 DEC 1.0>0.3 JAN 1.0>0.3 FEB 1.0>0.3 MAR 1.0>0.3 APR 1.0>0.3
Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*AA MIA-CAP OCT 0>1.0 NOV 0>1.0 DEC 0>1.0 JAN 0>1.0 FEB 0>1.0 MAR 0>1.0 APR 0>1.0
AA MIA-CCS SEP 4>1.1 OCT 4>1.1 NOV 4>1.2 DEC 4>1.1 JAN 4>1.2 FEB 4>1.1 MAR 4>1.1 APR 4>1.1

Venezuela continues to dig itself a deeper hole....

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
AM PHX-HMO SEP 1.0>0.0 OCT 1.0>0 NOV 1.0>0 DEC 1.0>0 JAN 1.0>0 FEB 1.0>0 MAR 1.0>0 APR 1.0>0

An ERJ to a city (HMO) with not too much traffic, competing with an A320 (?) with connection opportunities. AM didn't stand a chance. If they start MEX maybe.
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brilondon
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:26 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL CVG-CDG NOV 1.0>0.9 DEC 1.0>0.8

Wow, I just noticed this. Have they done this in the past as a winter only schedule change?
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 107):
Who dat? 4B is a name I don't recognize.
Quoting notdownnlocked (Reply 106):
So who is 4B flying CVN-DFW???

Boutique Air, Inc.
http://www.boutiqueair.com/
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:22 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 108):
Wow, I just noticed this. Have they done this in the past as a winter only schedule change?

Yes. They ran a less than daily schedule last winter as well.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:26 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):
Avg. Mainline Daily Depatures by Hub - July 2011 - July 2014

Which adds up to a decrease of nearly 5% in mainline departures over that time period.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 111):
Which adds up to a decrease of nearly 5% in mainline departures over that time period.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):
LAX - 116 - 120

Ironically, mainline at LAX actually *grew*
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 112):
Ironically, mainline at LAX actually *grew*

This data pretty much entirely misses the point that I and others were making, though, which that the vast majority of the reduction in United's mainline schedule - particularly in the short-haul/regional markets - at LAX occurred long before July 2011, let alone July 2014, and that most of the continuing United-branded schedule reduction that has occurred since July 2011, and continues to go on now, is with RJs, not mainline.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 113):

This data pretty much entirely misses the point that I and others were making, though, which that the vast majority of the reduction in United's mainline schedule - particularly in the short-haul/regional markets - at LAX occurred long before July 2011, let alone July 2014, and that most of the continuing United-branded schedule reduction that has occurred since July 2011, and continues to go on now, is with RJs, not mainline.
AA can win LAX considering they're behind in both NYC and ORD

as a point of reference, PMAA in summer 2013 was only 112 dept from LGA and 90 from JFK for a total of 202 (and trace amounts at EWR).

You have always argued PMAA (in various threads) is doing totally fine with 202 departures at their split hub (in a market even larger than LA), but now you're arguing UA's 200 dept hub at LAX is imploding to a point where businesses would abandon them ??

[Edited 2014-08-06 08:00:18]
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 108):
Wow, I just noticed this. Have they done this in the past as a winter only schedule change?

Yes. Not much travel during the winter for P&G
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 39):
Depends on how far back you want to go. If you look back to a decade or a bit more ago, pre-(United) 737 retirement, the "overall trend" is decidedly downward.

Just 5 years is a very long time in the airline industry. What happened 10-15 years ago is totally irrelevant in predicting the future.

Quoting commavia (Reply 113):
This data pretty much entirely misses the point that I and others were making, though, which that the vast majority of the reduction in United's mainline schedule - particularly in the short-haul/regional markets - at LAX occurred long before July 2011, let alone July 2014, and that most of the continuing United-branded schedule reduction that has occurred since July 2011, and continues to go on now, is with RJs, not mainline.

So where's the trend or writings on the wall that make a dire prediction of UA at LAX have weight? Cutting some marginal RJ routes isn't going to cut it. The data comparison with 2011 doesn't support a dramatic UA drawdown.

Quoting commavia (Reply 39):
I think what I and others are reacting to, though, is the fact that the other competitors in the market still clearly feel that it is worth maintaining service, at least at some seasonally-reduced level, and what that disparity between United and its competitors says about United's competitive position - both at LAX in particular, and perhaps in general.

You know, airlines will still fight stupid, losing battles that are based on emotions. Let's take DL's NYC fight for example. For years they've been trying to "win" New York. Only recently - in a time of record airline profits - did they declare that the NYC operation as a whole is profitable (LGA slot swap a big part probably). If I was an investor in the company, I'd wonder why they've been wasting my investment all these years trying to "win" something that clearly isn't worth winning. Obviously the NYC operation is still a drag financially compared to other aspects of the company. When other hubs are making huge profits, LGA and JFK are struggling to break even. We know that the margin is far lower. Simply put, this was a war that you couldn't win. You would never get your investment back. It's a case of a highly competitive market where airlines fear being the first to pull out and "lose", because once an airline or two gives up, the market becomes much more profitable and lucrative (but in reality that wouldn't happen for any length of time because the market is too competitive and someone would quickly fill the gap). LAX-BOS could be a similar situation. You have five airlines fighting away. Sometimes it's best to swallow your pride and understand this isn't a war anyone is going to win. Better to risk potentially losing a few elite customers than to keep flying a route that is costing you money. UA dropping this route during the slowest season may be what the other four should be doing, but out of pride won't.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 113):
This data pretty much entirely misses the point that I and others were making, though, which that the vast majority of the reduction in United's mainline schedule - particularly in the short-haul/regional markets - at LAX occurred long before July 2011, let alone July 2014, and that most of the continuing United-branded schedule reduction that has occurred since July 2011, and continues to go on now, is with RJs, not mainline.


But as I've mentioned before, you're wrong; UA's operation at LAX today is larger than the combined UA-CO was in 2008, post 737 retirements. Yes, UA is a significantly smaller carrier at LAX today (in terms of capacity) than it was in 2000. But so is AA. Yes, the relinquishment of the ex-CO gates in T6 suggests that UA does not plan major growth at LAX. Yes, at least in the short term, AA and DL will continue to add capacity at LAX. But the idea of massive AA and DL growth at LAX is just pure fanboy fantasy. My all time favorite thread on here is from last year in which you and dll1011man argued over whether T4 or T5 was better.... I mean, seriously? The terminal with one public bathroom vs. the terminal with two bathrooms (but the same number of overall toilets)

[Edited 2014-08-06 08:58:55]
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:16 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 114):
AA can win LAX considering they're behind in both NYC and ORD

What a relevant, applicable comment.   

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 116):
What happened 10-15 years ago is totally irrelevant in predicting the future.

I strongly disagree. There are market moves that occurred nearly 30 years ago that are still having a profound impact on the market today, and will continue to in the future.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 116):
So where's the trend or writings on the wall that make a dire prediction of UA at LAX have weight?

I've repeatedly listed the markets where United has dramatically reduced and/or entirely eliminated service in (roughly) the last decade. It's quite a long list. United also just gave four of its gates to its largest competitor in the market. Is that not "writings on the wall" enough about United's view of the market's long-term prospects? "Dire" is your word, not mine - but I do think these moves do tell us that, at a minimum, United likely doesn't view LAX as much of a growth story going forward.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 116):
Cutting some marginal RJ routes isn't going to cut it.

This is precisely my point: United clearly does see PDX, and SJC, and PHX, and TUS, and LAS, and RNO, and SMF, and on and on as markets that are "marginal" and can be cut or reduces, but AA and/or Delta both seem to view these very same markets as sufficiently important to warrant more flights with more premium capacity.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 116):
LAX-BOS could be a similar situation. You have five airlines fighting away. Sometimes it's best to swallow your pride and understand this isn't a war anyone is going to win. Better to risk potentially losing a few elite customers than to keep flying a route that is costing you money. UA dropping this route during the slowest season may be what the other four should be doing, but out of pride won't.

Again - I don't think anybody is debating that this is precisely the financial calculus United is making. I think many of us are just commenting on the fact that it's notable United is the only one of the five competitors in this market to make this financial calculus and come to this conclusion, and that this is even all the more notable given that United has been in this market for decades, has traditionally had such a strong (leading) presence at LAX, and still has a larger share of the overall market in LAX than all but one of these competitors.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 117):
UA's operation at LAX today is larger than the combined UA-CO was in 2008, post 737 retirements. Yes, UA is a significantly smaller carrier at LAX today (in terms of capacity) than it was in 2000.

Yet again - as I said repeatedly, much of what I'm talking about, with mainline route eliminations or downgauges, happened well before 2011, and even before 2008. And the steady reduction in routes and frequencies today is largely occurring on such routes that were long-ago reduced to just RJs.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 117):
But so is AA.

And yet, whether this is true or not, AA today has a larger market share at LAX than United, and Delta is now closing in. I do not believe that was the case in 2000.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 117):
But the idea of massive AA and DL growth at LAX is just pure fanboy fantasy.

"Massive" is a word used by you and others in this thread, not me (at least with respect to LAX growth). All I was discussing was whether current growth trends would continue for AA and Delta.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 117):
My all time favorite thread on here is from last year in which you and dll1011man argued over whether T4 or T5 was better.... I mean, seriously?

Simply amazing.   
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:30 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 118):
All I was discussing was whether current growth trends would continue for AA and Delta.

You mean the 16% annual growth rate achieved by DL at LAX to continue year after year after year? what do you call that ?

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 117):
pure fanboy fantasy.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 119):
You mean the 16% annual growth rate

No. I said "trends," not CAGR. A trend can be up or down - and need not necessarily be a specific percentage.

What I said - and meant - was that if "current trends" (plural, referring to both Delta and United) continue, Delta will overtake United.

[Edited 2014-08-06 09:34:41]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 120):

What I said - and meant - was that if "current trends" (plural, referring to both Delta and United) continue, Delta will overtake United.

Then you're still implying DL has any room to grow at LAX. The ONLY scenario where DL will overtake UA is if UA shrinks seat count by nearly 20%, and since most of the trim are coming from small RJs, that would equate to nearly 40% reduction in departures.

For that drastic a cut, most of the continuing feed will fail. LAX-LHR will become 788, NRT will be handed to NH, PVG and MEL will be cancelled, SYD will be 787.

THIS is the scenario you're essentially forecasting.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 118):
Yet again - as I said repeatedly, much of what I'm talking about, with mainline route eliminations or downgauges, happened well before 2011, and even before 2008. And the steady reduction in routes and frequencies today is largely occurring on such routes that were long-ago reduced to just RJs.

Again, the overall UA LAX operation is larger today than the combined UA-CO operation in 2008. Yes, the composition of the hub has changed; some destinations have been added/upgauged, some reduced/dropped. Your statement is not factual.

Quoting commavia (Reply 118):
And yet, whether this is true or not, AA today has a larger market share at LAX than United, and Delta is now closing in. I do not believe that was the case in 2000.

The combined AA-TW operation had 232 peak day departures in 2001; the combined AA-US operation has 185 in 2014.

And how are we measuring market share?
- revenues?
- local market share?
- capacity?

Seems to be the latter, which is clearly deceitful as all that capacity DL has added has generally been filled with low-yielding connections. UA's local market share hasn't deteriorated as much as it's being portrayed.
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 121):
The ONLY scenario where DL will overtake UA is if UA shrinks seat count by nearly 20%, and since most of the trim are coming from small RJs, that would equate to nearly 40% reduction in departures.

That could happen when you consider how many departures UA has from LAX that are E120 or small RJs. The E120's are on their way out and it's doubtful UA can hold on in many of the small RJ markets.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see UA permanently cut mainline routes like LAX-BWI, LAX-BOS and even LAX-SEA.

I could easily see UA getting down to about 100-120 departures a day (mainline+RJ).

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
Seems to be the latter, which is clearly deceitful as all that capacity DL has added has generally been filled with low-yielding connections.

How do you know this?
 
commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
Your statement is not factual.

You can keep repeating it all you want. It doesn't make it so. For the final time, as I've said - repeatedly - a great deal of the reductions I'm referring to happened even before 2008. What I have referred to - again, repeatedly - was that there are numerous markets out of LAX that today see dramatically less service, in terms of frequency and/or capacity - than they did 10-15 years ago.

For the final time, the list includes (but may well not be limited to): PHL, PIT, SEA, PDX, BWI, ATL, MIA, OAK, SMF, LAS, BOS, TUS, SJC, RNO, PHX, ELP and ABQ. All of these are markets that used to receive more service from LAX on United than they do today - most used to see mainline (and many lots of it), and many of these markets are now entirely gone from United's LAX schedule. This has been, and continues to be, "my statement," and it is entirely factual.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
And how are we measuring market share?
- revenues?
- local market share?
- capacity?

Market share means market share. In the airline industry, when speaking about a particular airport, this is typically defined by enplanements. Measured by enplanements, I believe - please correct me if I'm wrong - that AA and its various partners/subsidiaries (including USAirways, Envoy and Skywest) constitute a larger share of LAX enplanements than United and its various partners/subsidiaries. That was absolutely not the case in 2000. Someone can feel free to correct me, but I believe - though certainly could be wrong - that the same is also true of local market revenue, and also capacity.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
Seems to be the latter, which is clearly deceitful as all that capacity DL has added has generally been filled with low-yielding connections.

United may well be printing money on its LAX operation and Delta bleeding red ink (although I tend to doubt it on both counts), but either way, I never said anything about profitability.
 
alfa164
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
Seems to be the latter, which is clearly deceitful as all that capacity DL has added has generally been filled with low-yielding connections

As opposed to UA's low-yielding connections? Or AA's low-yielding connections?
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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 121):
For that drastic a cut, most of the continuing feed will fail. LAX-LHR will become 788, NRT will be handed to NH, PVG and MEL will be cancelled, SYD will be 787.

THIS is the scenario you're essentially forecasting.

Actually, I already outlined "the scenario [I'm] essentially forecasting," or at least think is plausible and imaginable:

Quoting commavia (Reply 39):
But United getting down to, say, around 100-120 daily flights to the hubs plus maybe 15-20 additional important domestic and international O&D or connecting markets, and shifting everything else to SFO? I think that's entirely plausible, and in fact is looking increasingly likely.

Domestically, I think the non-hub markets with the highest probability of maintain nonstop service to LAX under the scenario contemplated above would be BOS, CLE, LAS, JFK, MCO, PHX, SAN and SEA, plus all the Hawaii routes (except possibly ITO). All of the other remaining domestic connectivity could largely be shifted to SFO. On the international side, I could see LHR, NRT, SYD and MEL all staying (although yes, likely as 787s), along with MEX and possibly 1-2 of the Mexican beach markets, and PVG going away.

This isn't necessarily my prediction, but I don't find it unthinkable, either.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:41 pm

It'd be interesting to compare mainline departures by city in 2008 to today for UA. If they have grown in the hub markets and subbed RJ's in to some of the secondary markets, then certainly the reduction systemwide in RJ flying is going to have an impact. For LAX, if it's not a core hub the way that SFO, EWR, IAH, etc are, then the feed of the RJ's isn't going to be considered as important as it would at the big hubs. While UA is at 120 mainline departures today at LAX, it's the RJ/prop flying that I would think is the most vulnerable.

Regardless, UA is a shadow of its former self in the west, with SFO clearly becoming king (as it should). SEA has been decimated over the years and it's not hard to fathom LAX becoming much more "streamlined" moving forward. As MSPNWA said up-thread, perhaps UA has decided it isn't worth it to fight for market share in all of the ex-LAX (no pun intended) routes and is going to just hold on to what's relevant to it's corporate contract folks and overall network feed. That doesn't seem so strange to me when they have SFO just up the coast.

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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:47 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 127):
For LAX, if it's not a core hub the way that SFO, EWR, IAH

  

Exactly. Each of the network carriers now has a set of 4-5 "core" hubs that are strategically critical to the carrier's entire domestic and global networks, because they serve a unique function no other hub can replicate. Each of these carriers also has lesser, smaller "hubs" and/or focus cities that are very important either as specialized, regionalized connecting complexes, or markets with large O&D concentrations, or both. For AA, it's DFW, ORD, PHL, CLT and MIA in the first category, and LAX, PHX, JFK and DCA in the second. Delta's core hubs are ATL, DTW, MSP and SLC, with JFK, LGA, SEA and, increasingly, LAX, in the second. And for United, the core hubs - at least in my mind - are EWR, ORD, IAH, DEN and SFO, with LAX and IAD being secondary.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 127):
SFO clearly becoming king (as it should).

  

SFO is a phenomenal hub - it is the only west coast market that can ever support a true network carrier megahub, and United has it.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 127):
it's not hard to fathom LAX becoming much more "streamlined" moving forward.

  

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 127):
perhaps UA has decided it isn't worth it to fight for market share in all of the ex-LAX (no pun intended) routes and is going to just hold on to what's relevant to it's corporate contract folks and overall network feed. That doesn't seem so strange to me when they have SFO just up the coast.

  
 
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compensateme
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 124):
You can keep repeating it all you want. It doesn't make it so. For the final time, as I've said - repeatedly - a great deal of the reductions I'm referring to happened even before 2008. What I have referred to - again, repeatedly - was that there are numerous markets out of LAX that today see dramatically less service, in terms of frequency and/or capacity - than they did 10-15 years ago.
2008 was six years ago -- that's a fairly large sample size -- and UA has grown in that time. Suggesting that UA's position at LAX is deteriorating in 2014 because it shrunk so much between 2000-2008 is completely irrational. Like I said before, AA's capacity during that time frame shrunk just as much, if not more.

Quoting commavia (Reply 124):
Market share means market share. In the airline industry, when speaking about a particular airport, this is typically defined by enplanements. Measured by enplanements, I believe - please correct me if I'm wrong - that AA and its various partners/subsidiaries (including USAirways, Envoy and Skywest) constitute a larger share of LAX enplanements than United and its various partners/subsidiaries. That was absolutely not the case in 2000. Someone can feel free to correct me, but I believe - though certainly could be wrong - that the same is also true of local market revenue, and also capacity.

Different metrics have different use for different people. DL's added a significant amount of capacity at LAX, and while its overall market share has improved, it hasn't done much to help its local market share. Given the context of what you're asserting... I don't see how DL's position at LAX has improved while UA's deteriorated, given that UA's local market share is (more-or-less) stagnant.

Just a.net math I guess.
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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 129):
Given the context of what you're asserting... I don't see how DL's position at LAX has improved while UA's deteriorated, given that UA's local market share is (more-or-less) stagnant.

Just go look at the schedules. That's all that's required to very quickly ascertain the point I'm making.

In market after market where United was flying multiple daily 737s 10 years ago, and multiple daily RJs 5 years ago, it's flying maybe 1-2, if any, RJs today. And in many such markets, Delta (and AA) today is (are) flying multiple daily 2-class RJs in competition.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 129):
Just a.net math I guess.

Whatever. No point debating two versions of reality.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 129):
UA has grown in that time.

Just looking at this:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):
LAX - 116 - 120
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 104):
SFO - 154 - 191

On the west coast, the growth has clearly been at SFO over the past several years. While UA mainline departures remain solid, it's to a larger degree what's happening on the regional side that is the concern from my point of view. Additionally, as MSPNWA pointed out, the lust for market share at LAX may not be as strong anymore for UA because they - unlike any other legacy - have a megahub just up the coast in SFO. LAX doesn't have the same importance to them anymore as it did back in the day. They can afford to drop spokes, reduce frequencies, regauge, etc. because they can push a lot of stuff through SFO/DEN/IAH/ORD if they choose to.

Whether that means that they keep losing share or just stay stagnant, who knows? I don't really care personally as I am a SEA guy. It certainly lends itself to a reduction over time as they focus on their core strengths in an effort to improve their metrics systemwide.

-Dave
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compensateme
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:38 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 130):
Just go look at the schedules. That's all that's required to very quickly ascertain the point I'm making.

In market after market where United was flying multiple daily 737s 10 years ago, and multiple daily RJs 5 years ago, it's flying maybe 1-2, if any, RJs today. And in many such markets, Delta (and AA) today is (are) flying multiple daily 2-class RJs in competition.


LAX in 2009, post 737 retirements:

UA: 198 peak day departures, approximately 19,000 seats
CO: 25 peak day departures, approximately 4,000 seats

LAX in 2014:

UA: 208 peak day departures, approximately 23,500 seats

Quoting commavia (Reply 130):
Whatever. No point debating two versions of reality.

Sorry commavia, but facts don't lie.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 132):
UA: 208 peak day departures, approximately 23,500 seats

But my question would be "Where are those seats flying to?" I sincerely don't know, but if in 2008 mainline departures were to 20 cities and today they are to 12 cities (just an example), and they maintained a consistent percentage of overall seats onboard mainline aircraft, then they are likely ceding "markets" though not necessarily "market share" to the other guys. If those seats are becoming increasingly hub-concentrated, then at some point they can/might/will rationalize as the CRJ's draw down and that's when you might start to see a significant reduction (multiple points) in overall market share.

Just my thoughts on it.

Adios.

-Dave
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MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
bobnwa
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 116):
Obviously the NYC operation is still a drag financially compared to other aspects of the company.

Who is it obvious to other than you? Not to me certainly.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 132):
LAX in 2009

The goal posts keep moving, and yet the point is still the same: what I'm referring to happened a decade ago. Not three years ago in 2011. Not five years ago in 2009. Not six years ago in 2008. It happened before that. What I have repeatedly referred to is the general reductions in United's LAX schedule - reduced (fewer flights and/or smaller planes) or eliminated service in multiple markets - that stretches back to the early 2000s, in the years immediately following 9/11 when United parked many of its 737s.

Go back and look at United's timetable for the summer before 9/11, and compare that to United's schedule at LAX today. That illustrates precisely the "facts" - which are absolutely not debatable - that I am referring to.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 132):
Sorry commavia, but facts don't lie.

  

If only this were only about "facts." It's not. This is about interpreting them.

You continue to repeat - over and over - facts that allegedly prove a point I was never making. I was never arguing about the level of frequency or seat capacity on United out of LAX between today and 2011, or 2009, or 2008.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 132):
Quoting commavia (Reply 130):
Whatever. No point debating two versions of reality.

Sorry commavia, but facts don't lie.

What facts? Commavia was talking about ten years ago, not five.

Furthermore, he's making a very accurate statement. AA entered the UA markets of LAXSLC, LAXOKC, LAXSMF, LAXTUS, LAXABQ, LAXPHX and LAXELP about 3-4 years ago. Since then, AA is now larger than UA in every single one of those markets, with UA having slashed frequency or exited them all together.
a.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 135):

The goal posts keep moving, and yet the point is still the same: what I'm referring to happened a decade ago. Not three years ago in 2011. Not five years ago in 2009. Not six years ago in 2008. It happened before that. What I have repeatedly referred to is the general reductions in United's LAX schedule - reduced (fewer flights and/or smaller planes) or eliminated service in multiple markets - that stretches back to the early 2000s, in the years immediately following 9/11 when United parked many of its 737s.

Go back and look at United's timetable for the summer before 9/11, and compare that to United's schedule at LAX today. That illustrates precisely the "facts" - which are absolutely not debatable - that I am referring to.

If you wanna pretend to be objective, show every single airport that AA/DL has reduced/downgauged/eliminated since 2000 as a point of comparison. Otherwise you're attempting to paint a picture that UA only shrinks and AA/DL only grows.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):

The combined AA-TW operation had 232 peak day departures in 2001; the combined AA-US operation has 185 in 2014.

You have never attempted to even counter this point, so I presume you're admitting AA shrank departures by 20+% too.
 
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compensateme
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:21 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 135):
The goal posts keep moving, and yet the point is still the same: what I'm referring to happened a decade ago. Not three years ago in 2011. Not five years ago in 2009. Not six years ago in 2008. It happened before that. What I have repeatedly referred to is the general reductions in United's LAX schedule - reduced (fewer flights and/or smaller planes) or eliminated service in multiple markets - that stretches back to the early 2000s, in the years immediately following 9/11 when United parked many of its 737s.

My argument has been consistent; I maintained that since the 737 retirement - I was slightly off as they weren't fully phased out until 2009.

Quoting commavia (Reply 135):
Go back and look at United's timetable for the summer before 9/11, and compare that to United's schedule at LAX today. That illustrates precisely the "facts" - which are absolutely not debatable - that I am referring to.

Let's try this again:

AA-TW in 2001: 232 peak day departures
AA-US in 2014: 185 peak day departures

AA's position at LAX has equally deteriorated since 2001. AA itself would've likely experienced a slight dip in market share in 2014 (as a derivative of the loss in capacity given the 767 retirements) had it not merged with US.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 136):
What facts? Commavia was talking about ten years ago, not five.

Furthermore, he's making a very accurate statement. AA entered the UA markets of LAXSLC, LAXOKC, LAXSMF, LAXTUS, LAXABQ, LAXPHX and LAXELP about 3-4 years ago. Since then, AA is now larger than UA in every single one of those markets, with UA having slashed frequency or exited them all together.

Sorry MAH4546, you can't cherry pick markets to support a frivolous argument.

Yes, UA's market share slipped in the 2000s. But so did AA's. The ONLY carrier who experienced any significant growth in that time frame is WN.

Commavia's assertion that UA's market position at LAX is deteriorating because it shed so much capacity in the 2000s is absurd. UA's market position has already deteriorated and has been stagnant over the past five years -- a pretty long sample size in the airline industry.
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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:25 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 137):
If you wanna pretend to be objective, show every single airport that AA/DL has reduced/downgauged/eliminated since 2000 as a point of comparison. Otherwise you're attempting to paint a picture that UA only shrinks and AA/DL only grows.

  

Hahahaha. Yeah - that would be "objective." Every time anyone mentions a market where United has declined in absolute and/or relative terms over a given time period, they must also provide recitations on all the other places where competitors have similarly declined over a similar time horizon.

Simply breathtaking.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 137):
You have never attempted to even counter this point, so I presume you're admitting AA shrank departures by 20+% too.

I don't know if it's factual or not. I have no reason to doubt his numbers. Nonetheless, yet again, it isn't now nor has it ever been my point. The point I'm making is this:

In 1999 (used because I couldn't find numbers for the 2000 on archive.org), United had a larger market share at LAX of well in excess of 23.59% - not sure how much more, since SkyWest, at 3.29% of the market, operated for Delta out of LAX as well at the time, but at a minimum I think it's safe to say United's market share at LAX was at least 25%. The next largest carrier was Southwest, at about 12%, followed by AA at around 10% (including Eagle), and then Delta at around 9% (with regionals).

Today, the situation is markedly different. The same four carriers cumulatively have about the same overall market share, but the distributions have changed materially. AA is the market leader at around 20%, with Delta and United both around 16% and Southwest at about 12%. (Precise percentages are welcome.) Bottom line: the market has changed from where it was 15 years ago, in that United is not only no longer the market's leading carrier - by far - but the gap has also closed between United and yet another network carrier. That is my point.

[Edited 2014-08-06 12:35:30]
 
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compensateme
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 139):
Today, the situation is markedly different. The same four carriers cumulatively have about the same overall market share, but the distributions have changed materially. AA is the market leader at around 20%, with Delta and United both around 16% and Southwest at about 12%. (Precise percentages are welcome.) Bottom line: the market has changed from where it was 15 years ago, in that United is not only no longer the market's leading carrier - by far - but the gap has also closed between United and yet another network carrier. That is my point.

That's just an interesting logic to determine market leader.

You and MAH4546 are quick to point out that AA is the true market leader at ORD since it has a larger share of local traffic... but when that metric doesn't support other AAssertions, I guess you gotta pick a different one.

[Edited 2014-08-06 12:32:07]
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 138):
AA's position at LAX has equally deteriorated since 2001.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 138):
Yes, UA's market share slipped in the 2000s. But so did AA's. The ONLY carrier who experienced any significant growth in that time frame is WN.

Commavia's assertion that UA's market position at LAX is deteriorating because it shed so much capacity in the 2000s is absurd. UA's market position has already deteriorated and has been stagnant over the past five years -- a pretty long sample size in the airline industry.

In 2001, United's market share at LAX was around 22-23% and AA's was around 13-14%. Today AA is at about 20% and United about 16%.

How anyone could look at United's market share, and its schedule and capacity presence in market after market from 10-15 years ago compared to today, and conclude that United's market position hasn't deteriorated is completely beyond me. And only someone who drew that conclusion could call the examples of PHL, PIT, SEA, PDX, BWI, ATL, MIA, OAK, SMF, LAS, BOS, TUS, SJC, RNO, PHX, ELP and ABQ "cherry picking."

Incredible.   

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 140):
You and MAH4546 are quick to point out that AA is the true market leader at ORD since it has a larger share of local traffic... but when that metric doesn't support other AAssertions, I guess you gotta pick a different one.

Keep making stuff up and putting words in my mouth. Keep digging. In merger documents submitted to regulators several years ago, AA and USAirways claimed that their combined share of local O&D was higher than United's at ORD. I do not now, nor have I ever, believed that this alone necessarily makes the merged new AA the "market leader" at ORD - so please feel free to show me anywhere I've said that.

[Edited 2014-08-06 12:34:50]
 
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compensateme
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 141):
In 2001, United's market share at LAX was around 22-23% and AA's was around 13-14%. Today AA is at about 20% and United about 16%.

How anyone could look at United's market share, and its schedule and capacity presence in market after market from 10-15 years ago compared to today, and conclude that United's market position hasn't deteriorated is completely beyond me. And only someone who drew that conclusion could call the examples of PHL, PIT, SEA, PDX, BWI, ATL, MIA, OAK, SMF, LAS, BOS, TUS, SJC, RNO, PHX, ELP and ABQ "cherry picking."

Incredible.   

Like I said, it's just an interesting metric to choose market share. Especially since AA and UA have long held near-equal revenue share at LAX.

But hey, if it makes you sleep better at night.
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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 142):
it's just an interesting metric to choose market share.

Right ...

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 138):
UA's market share slipped in the 2000s.

My point, from the outset, was that if United doesn't want to fight for such high-profile markets as LAX-BOS, even in the dead of winter, when some of its more determined competitors do, it may well soon be facing the prospect of more serious threats to its market presence - as measured not just by market share, but other factors somewhat less "interesting" to the United fans, including local O&D share and revenue share.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 142):
But hey, if it makes you sleep better at night.

  

I'm not the one getting needlessly defensive in the face of reality. The reality, whether some want to accept it or not, is that United's market position at LAX - defined by virtually any metric there is - has declined materially in the last 10-15 years relative to its competitors. There are numerous markets - no cherry picking - where United today flies, if anything, 1-2 daily RJs, but where, 10-15 years ago, it sent multiple daily 737s. In many of those very same markets, airlines that 10-15 years ago had zero service - like AA and Delta - are today managing to fill multiple daily 2-class RJs if not mainline. I'm not making this up - again, all one need do is look at the schedules then versus now.

The growth trend at AA and Delta in the market, and United's relinquishment of its own real estate at such a capacity-constrained airport, and to one of these competitors no less, in the last few years tells the tale pretty well. No need to continue arguing reality.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 139):

Today, the situation is markedly different. The same four carriers cumulatively have about the same overall market share, but the distributions have changed materially. AA is the market leader at around 20%, with Delta and United both around 16% and Southwest at about 12%.

You don't even know how to cite facts do you ?? UA at 16% ? Are you still living on that LAWA fantasy-report land ? UA is much closer to 18-19%.

And FYI, AA's "20%" is because they merged and bought out US's 3% share plus their own 17% share - nothing organic about that number in the past 4 years.

Back in 2002 (your ancient timeframe of choice), AA was #1 in JFK and LGA and now #3 at JFK and #2 at LGA. I guess if you're complaining about losing market share because of events that happened WAY back in history, there's a prime candidate for you.

www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/air_traffic_report_2002.pdf
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:47 pm

I wish I had some popcorn and a lounge chair.

This is DB1B domestic revenue share for LAX. All predecessor carriers are combined.
AA DL UA AS WN Other
2001 Q1 31.6% 16.4% 31.5% 2.9% 10.3% 7.3%
2001 Q2 30.6% 16.3% 31.2% 2.9% 10.3% 8.7%
2001 Q3 28.8% 17.0% 30.6% 3.5% 9.9% 10.2%
2001 Q4 28.0% 17.7% 31.5% 3.1% 10.8% 8.9%
2002 Q1 28.6% 17.9% 31.6% 3.1% 10.8% 8.0%
2002 Q2 31.7% 16.3% 29.9% 3.2% 10.9% 8.0%
2002 Q3 29.3% 16.7% 29.6% 3.8% 11.0% 9.6%
2002 Q4 28.6% 17.0% 31.6% 3.1% 12.2% 7.4%
2003 Q1 29.9% 16.9% 31.4% 2.9% 12.2% 6.8%
2003 Q2 30.1% 15.9% 30.5% 3.4% 12.4% 7.9%
2003 Q3 28.8% 16.5% 29.9% 4.2% 12.1% 8.6%
2003 Q4 29.7% 17.1% 30.0% 3.6% 11.7% 7.9%
2004 Q1 30.6% 16.5% 30.5% 3.3% 12.4% 6.8%
2004 Q2 29.4% 16.9% 30.1% 3.5% 12.3% 7.8%
2004 Q3 29.2% 16.8% 29.5% 4.1% 12.3% 8.1%
2004 Q4 30.1% 17.7% 29.3% 3.8% 12.3% 6.8%
2005 Q1 30.8% 18.3% 29.0% 4.0% 12.2% 5.7%
2005 Q2 29.5% 17.8% 28.5% 4.6% 14.0% 5.7%
2005 Q3 28.9% 17.7% 27.9% 4.8% 14.3% 6.4%
2005 Q4 29.6% 17.5% 29.1% 4.3% 14.3% 5.2%
2006 Q1 29.7% 17.2% 30.0% 4.1% 14.6% 4.5%
2006 Q2 29.0% 17.5% 30.5% 4.1% 14.2% 4.6%
2006 Q3 28.0% 17.8% 30.2% 4.6% 14.1% 5.3%
2006 Q4 29.9% 17.7% 29.8% 4.0% 13.7% 4.9%
2007 Q1 29.8% 17.6% 30.0% 3.8% 14.2% 4.7%
2007 Q2 29.5% 17.1% 29.8% 4.2% 13.8% 5.6%
2007 Q3 27.9% 17.7% 29.4% 4.7% 13.7% 6.6%
2007 Q4 29.8% 18.6% 28.9% 3.9% 13.3% 5.5%
2008 Q1 29.3% 17.5% 27.7% 4.2% 14.3% 6.9%
2008 Q2 27.7% 16.8% 29.3% 4.6% 14.4% 7.2%
2008 Q3 26.7% 16.7% 28.4% 4.9% 15.4% 7.9%
2008 Q4 27.9% 18.3% 26.7% 4.4% 15.3% 7.4%
2009 Q1 28.9% 17.0% 26.3% 4.1% 15.8% 7.8%
2009 Q2 26.8% 16.7% 26.9% 4.7% 15.6% 9.4%
2009 Q3 25.0% 16.7% 27.4% 5.0% 15.1% 10.8%
2009 Q4 26.0% 17.1% 26.1% 4.8% 15.7% 10.3%
2010 Q1 27.0% 17.6% 25.6% 4.2% 15.5% 10.0%
2010 Q2 25.6% 17.5% 26.1% 4.5% 15.7% 10.7%
2010 Q3 24.1% 17.4% 26.4% 4.4% 15.3% 12.4%
2010 Q4 26.0% 17.4% 24.6% 3.7% 16.2% 12.1%
2011 Q1 26.3% 17.3% 24.1% 4.0% 16.5% 11.7%
2011 Q2 25.7% 17.0% 23.8% 4.0% 15.6% 13.9%
2011 Q3 24.1% 17.0% 24.5% 4.4% 15.3% 14.6%
2011 Q4 25.5% 17.5% 24.2% 3.5% 14.9% 14.5%
2012 Q1 27.3% 17.6% 22.3% 3.6% 15.1% 14.2%
2012 Q2 25.7% 17.3% 22.5% 4.1% 14.9% 15.5%
2012 Q3 25.0% 16.9% 22.1% 4.5% 14.9% 16.7%
2012 Q4 26.3% 17.7% 21.3% 4.0% 14.9% 15.8%
2013 Q1 27.7% 17.4% 21.7% 4.0% 14.7% 14.6%
2013 Q2 25.2% 18.1% 22.2% 4.2% 14.2% 16.0%
2013 Q3 24.0% 18.1% 22.5% 4.6% 14.1% 16.7%
2013 Q4 26.3% 18.2% 21.8% 4.0% 14.0% 15.7%
2014 Q1 27.1% 19.1% 21.5% 3.9% 13.9% 14.4%

[Edited 2014-08-06 12:48:10]
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:50 pm

VX represented 8.0% (part of other) in the most recent quarter
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 122):
The combined AA-TW operation had 232 peak day departures in 2001; the combined AA-US operation has 185 in 2014.
Quoting commavia (Reply 139):
but at a minimum I think it's safe to say United's market share at LAX was at least 25%. The next largest carrier was Southwest, at about 12%, followed by AA at around 10% (including Eagle), and then Delta at around 9% (with regionals).
Quoting commavia (Reply 141):
Today AA is at about 20% and United about 16%.

Wow don't you know love math. Going from 232 down to 185 flights would apparently increase market share from 10% to 20%. For both numbers to be true you'll have to more than double average seat count per plane.

Quoting commavia (Reply 143):
In many of those very same markets, airlines that 10-15 years ago had zero service - like AA and Delta - are today managing to fill multiple daily 2-class RJs if not mainline. I'm not making this up - again, all one need do is look at the schedules then versus now.

You mean like how AA used to fly LAX-EWR (possibly more than 1x daily historically), now completely cancelled, while UA does it 12-15x daily ? Yup, definitely AA chasing UA away.

You want some credibility from anyone other than MAH, please use some facts.
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:54 pm

So, basically:
AA is at a recent high, but down from the past.
DL is at an all-time high (in this timeframe), but only by a point.
UA is at an all-time low and has lost a lot since 2010.
AS is down a point from where they were.
WN has lost almost 2 points.
and
VX now has 8% from zero.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 8/8/2014: AA/DL/BIG UA Changes

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 1):
UA LAX-BOI DEC 1.8>3

Well at least ONE route under UA code is getting a boost!  
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?

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