IAHflyer97
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Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:45 am

So the way I see it, PHX has gotten the shaft in the mergers of AW/US and it's looking like US/AA is going to be the same. However, PHX is still a very strong domestic hub, so international service seems to be the problem here.

Recently, AA announced that LAX will be their primary pacific gateway. And to this, I said "why? You have a very good hub in Phoenix that nobody has done anything with yet."

So my question is this. Why did AA take LAX over PHX? PHX isn't situated perfectly, I get it. But couldn't PHX still be used as an international connecting point for anyone in the Southern half of the United States? Also, PHX doesn't have any Asian FFC's. AA could easily make PHX an Asian fortress... Right? Now let's look at LAX from that perspective. Another legacy hub (UA), and a strong presents from DL. FFC's everywhere, and potential for gate issues if AA decides to do a major increase. It just doesn't seem desirable for any legacy carrier to increase LAX with that much competition.

Please note that I am not an expert with LAX or PHX, but someone here had to have thought the same thing.

What are your thoughts?
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):

In the new AA network, PHX offers nearly no advantage over DFW to Asia

Either go for the largest O&D (LAX) or go for the largest feed (DFW)

ORD has all the right elements to make it work as well but they must put some focus in it instead of autopilot neglect
 
TUSDawg23
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:59 am

I think the problem IAHflyer is that PHX is really a low yield seasonal market. PHX has strong enough O&D demand domestically to make a lot of city pairs work, but internationally it's not seen as a world class destination and the business community has struggled to convince the airlines that the demand is there for any far reaching destinations other than LHR.

There has been talk for a long time about an NRT flight, but one hasn't quite come to fruition. UA recently started NRT from DEN, but that's due in large part to the fact that UA has a huge presence in SE Asia. AA's presence in the region has a lot of catching up to do. Yes there's competition at LAX, but it's a year round destination with huge demand and the Asian population greatly surpasses that of PHX.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:01 am

I do think PHX will be downsized but remain a true hub. Us had nothing else to work with dfw and lax give alot more options but phx still is needed for connections.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:05 am

PMUS didn't have any TPAC going from PHX, so it would have been moving the LAX traffic from a region that is much larger, and has plenty of Asian business ties (automakers, Forever 21, etc) to a smaller city where all that traffic would have to backhaul. I am not even sure how many TPAC routes are approves from PHX.

Plus UA has a tendency to flee from competition.
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IAHflyer97
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting Tusdawg23 (Reply 2):
but internationally it's not seen as a world class destination

I would think the same thing, but look at ATL. I'll tell you right now that Atlanta, Georgia is NOT a world class city. But look at their airport. It's massive! My thought process comes in when I think that AA could turn PHX into another anomaly like ATL.
A man is only as big as the amount of strings on his guitar.
 
UALFAson
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 5):
I would think the same thing, but look at ATL. I'll tell you right now that Atlanta, Georgia is NOT a world class city. But look at their airport. It's massive! My thought process comes in when I think that AA could turn PHX into another anomaly like ATL.

There's a lot more to it than where you'd like to take a summer vacation. ATL has a much bigger and stronger economy, with the HQers of at least 15 Fortune 500 companies while I found about 6 for PHX.
You also have to consider demographics and cultural ties to Asia, which L.A. has in spades over PHX. There's also that pesky hub-in-everything-but-name operation that WN has at PHX to compete against.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 3):
US had nothing else to work with

Bingo!
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777STL
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 am

It's pretty simple. PHX isn't the international hub that LAX is and it's not the domestic hub that DFW is, so there's really no reason to favor PHX over either airport. PHX itself doesn't have the O&D traffic to drive any large scale expansion.

As far as its current role, PHX does a yeoman's job as a western regional hub, but given it's geographical position, it's never going to be a powerhouse, fortress hub like an ORD or a DFW is. For connecting purposes, it really only makes sense for pax in the southwest(Utah, NV, AZ and NM) and southern California. Anything farther north or east is asking too much.
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chrisair
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 4):
PMUS didn't have any TPAC going from PHX,

PMUS doesn't have any transpac service period (unless you count Hawaii, which it serves from PHX).
 
travaz
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:34 am

AS someone who lives in PHX I would love to see it. Do I think it is going to happen? No I don't. People don't mind a quick 50 minute flight west to Lax to connect to an Asian flight. I have done it 9 times. Passengers will not (for the most part) back haul to only fly back over LAX to get to Asia. Phoenix will offer a lot for AA but it will never be an Asian gateway, There are just too many options to Asia from LAX without a connection to make PHX effective. Phoenix will be a good connection from the east, markets like SFO SEA etc. No bad weather and lots of capacity with not too many serious ATC delays. I am making a trip to SFO next week and there is no way I am going to connect to get to SFO out of PHX. There are 19 NS and another 20 options thru LAX , LAS, DEN, or SLC so why would you connect somewhere? Same situation for LAX to Asia.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):
So the way I see it, PHX has gotten the shaft in the mergers of AW/US

Nope.... LAS got the shaft. PHX is doing pretty well for itself.

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):
Recently, AA announced that LAX will be their primary pacific gateway. And to this, I said "why? You have a very good hub in Phoenix that nobody has done anything with yet."

Because they have a very good hub in LAX that has FAR more traffic and ties to Asia than Phoenix could ever hope to have.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:17 am

Might have something to do with the fact LAX sits the middle of a MASSIVE metropolis. In addition, PHX in the height of summer can hit 120+ degrees and that does not help long range international aircraft performance-wise.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:28 am

Los Angeles is Los Angeles. There was 0 chance PHX would be a "primary pacific gateway" over LAX. Talk about the better connectivity all you want, the Los Angeles local market more than makes up for that.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:33 am

It all comes down to O&D.

LAX-Asia, even with all the competition, is many times larger.

I think thats why AA shot for a middle ground at DFW. Its certainly no LAX or ORD when it comes to O&D to Asia, but it has a lot more than PHX to Asia. It also has the massive hub and connectivity that PHX doesn't.
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Beardown91737
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 7):
For connecting purposes, it really only makes sense for pax in the southwest(Utah, NV, AZ and NM) and southern California.

Also useful for NoCal to TX and the South. PHX kicks LAX butt as a domestic hub,

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 11):

Might have something to do with the fact LAX sits the middle of a MASSIVE metropolis

Not really the middle. Nothing to the west but fish.
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aklrno
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:16 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 11):
In addition, PHX in the height of summer can hit 120+ degrees and that does not help long range international aircraft performance-wise.

Don't they close the airport at 118F? Closed airports really doesn't help long range performance.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:35 am

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 14):
Also useful for NoCal to TX and the South.

Not really. What AA learned with the short-lived hubs in SJC, BNA and RDU is that nobody wants to connect when there is a non-stop, even if it's not (gasp!) on AA. Why change in PHX when you can fly non-stop SFO/SMF/SJC/FAT to DFW on AA mainline, or coast-to-coast on AA and US.

If connecting, LAX offers Eagle service for SMF/SFO/SJC/MRY/FAT along with MFR/EUG/RDM in Southern/Central Oregon. Yes, PHX offers some other connections that have shifted or previously withdrawn Eagle service, such as OAK, SBP and SBA, but LAX is still key for many more markets.

HP hubbed at PHX as it was an available airport that wasn't already a strong hub/station for another carrier. But there were days they couldn't get a 737 off the ground because of the heat. I just don't see a 777/330/350 taking off very long-haul with any sort of load from PHX in summer except perhaps at 3:00am when it's cooled down a little. LAX is the center of the third largest metro area in the country, a much larger business center than PHX with year 'round demand, and a VLA can always get off the ground for a long-haul.

For the most part, PHX serves more as a way-port for connections, but major markets need a higher percentage of O/D traffic to fill the plane economically, which LAX has in spades over PHX. What AA is likely to do with PHX is offer the low-fare connections, keeping the seats open on the Coast to DFW/other longer haul non-stops for higher yielding fares. Read: domestic, narrow body flights. (That's what they tried with STL post-TWA, combining local fares {point-to-point governed fares requiring a routing over STL} at lower prices rather than through fares to try to fill the STL flights. It didn't work in the long-run, and STL was de-hubbed too.)
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:34 am

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):
So the way I see it, PHX has gotten the shaft in the mergers of AW/US and it's looking like US/AA is going to be the same.

Please explain the logic underlying this conclusion, as PHX remains a hub and doesn't appear to be losing any flying at present.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 15):
Don't they close the airport at 118F?

No.
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:39 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 16):
LAX is the center of the third largest metro area in the country

It's the second largest, and it's not close.
 
Prost
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting Beardown91737 (Reply 14):
Not really the middle. Nothing to the west but fish.

But a lot of the fish have relatives in Asia. VFR, baby, VFR!
 
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United_fan
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:28 pm

I wonder if the high summer temps would affect longhual flights out of PHX? Or are the runways long enough?
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jfk777
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 5):
I would think the same thing, but look at ATL. I'll tell you right now that Atlanta, Georgia is NOT a world class city. But look at their airport. It's massive! My thought process comes in when I think that AA could turn PHX into another anomaly like ATL.

Phoenix is not Atlanta with Florida to its south( large population). PHX has that large state, California, next door with 2 huge international airports. The two big international airports on the east coast, JFK & MIA, are far away. ATL is also within 500 miles if 100,000,000 people. How many live with in 500 miles from Phoenix ? The only place PHX can draw tons of traffic on is Tucson. Arizona, Nevada and New Mexico are sparsely populated.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 16):
HP hubbed at PHX as it was an available airport that wasn't already a strong hub/station for another carrier. But there were days they couldn't get a 737 off the ground because of the heat. I just don't see a 777/330/350 taking off very long-haul with any sort of load from PHX in summer except perhaps at 3:00am when it's cooled down a little

Dubai is a dessert and Emirates has proved that long haul can be doen from a place with high temperatures.
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:45 pm

I can see PHX getting some of the fringe nonstop markets shifted over from LAX. Some of the express flying is shifting that way. It makes sense if you are somewhere in SoCal where LAX isn't the most convenient airport to connect in PHX to go east. No one would connect at DFW to backtrack to DEN, ABQ or a lot of the Mexican vacation spots. That said I anticipate a lot of destinations beyond the Mississippi River outside of ORD, JFK PHL, CLT and MIA to start getting axed. DFW and ORD make better connections than PHX that far east. That's also the same reason PHX never had a shot at getting transpacific flights moved over from LAX. There are too many people in California to cede that market so connections to Asia are going to go via LAX. PHX might get a flight to NRT eventually but it never had a chance at more in Asia.
 
ckfred
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting Tusdawg23 (Reply 2):
I think the problem IAHflyer is that PHX is really a low yield seasonal market. PHX has strong enough O&D demand domestically to make a lot of city pairs work, but internationally it's not seen as a world class destination and the business community has struggled to convince the airlines that the demand is there for any far reaching destinations other than LHR.

You make an interesting point. There are cities which, for one reason or another, are major draws for international tourists. I've been to Calgary and Banff in Alberta, and both cities are major draws for Asian tourists. While flying on AA between ORD and YYC, there was an Asian tour group with at least 40 people.

Orlando and Las Vegas seems to draw very well from Europe, espeically the U.K. I've seen many people with British passports at MCO and LAS, and ORD seems to be a major conecting hub for people flying between the U.K. and LAS.

From what people who know a thing or two about British vacation preferences, the British don't need a destination by the water, but they do want warm weather. However, they also need some sort of draw, whether it's casino gambling (Las Vegas) or theme parks (Orlando). Phoenix is just a city in the desert. It's the Americans and the Canadians who show up with golf clubs and/or tennis racquets.
 
yegbey01
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:49 pm

The only international flights that AA will run out of Phoenix will be to Mexico and Western Canada (YYC, YEG and YVR).
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 22):

I can see PHX getting some of the fringe nonstop markets shifted over from LAX. Some of the express flying is shifting that way.

Such as?
a.
 
cle757
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:57 pm

Maybe UA should shift its hub from LAX to PHX as a domestic hub, allowing SFO to be primarily international?
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ripcordd
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:09 pm

2 Reasons Yield and O/D something PHX will never be able to get over on LAX.
 
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:52 pm

The reason is that Phoenix does not add to anything that Dallas or Los Angeles has going, and you would definitely pick those two over Phoenix.

here's something I posted a while back about which cities make good hubs. It's based on the size of the economies in all of the metro areas of the United States.

1) New York (no surprise)
2) LA
3) Chicago
4) Washington DC (does not include Baltimore)
5) Houston
6) Dallas and Fort Worth
7) Philly
8) San Francisco (does not include San Jose)
9) Boston (Surprise! Whose hub is this?)
10) Atlanta

So according to this ranking, Dallas makes a better place to put a hub than even San Francisco does, and much better than Phoenix. Los Angeles is a more obvious winner over Phoenix.

For fun, here are some other major hubs in the US:

11) Miami
12) Seattle
13) Minneapolis
14) Detroit
15) Phoenix
18) Denver
21) Charlotte
23) Pittsburgh29) Cincinnati34) Las Vegas
42) Salt Lake City
45) Memphis49) Raleigh (but not Durham, which is 61)

Source: 2012 figures from Bureau of Economic Analysis, US Commerce Dept. http://www.bea.gov/iTable/index.cfm


Since Atlanta was raised as a comparison, Atlanta has about a 100 year head start on Phoenix for being a transportation hub. (Look up the history of Atlanta: its reason for existing was to be a transportation hub.) Atlanta is the biggest economy in the southeast. The same cannot be said of Phoenix. Both Los Angeles and if you call it southwest, Dallas, are bigger economies than Phoenix is. That's why there's simply not much to gain by forcing Phoenix into an Atlanta style mold.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Quoting aklrno (Reply 15):
Don't they close the airport at 118F?

No.

Back in 1990, NW flew 727s into PHX. The summer temp rarely exceeded 120 degrees but that year it did a few times. The problem was that the T/0 charts and tabulated data only reflected limits up to 120 degrees, so a couple of times the T/0s were postponed until the temp dropped. The whole problem was quickly fixed when Boeing faxed the weight limit data with higher temps to NW. As a second officer at the time, I distinctly remember having copies of the faxed pages stuck in the weight manual.
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 16):
Not really. What AA learned with the short-lived hubs in SJC, BNA and RDU is that nobody wants to connect when there is a non-stop, even if it's not (gasp!) on AA. Why change in PHX when you can fly non-stop SFO/SMF/SJC/FAT to DFW on AA mainline, or coast-to-coast on AA and US.

I said to TX, not to DFW. More like SJC-SAT is useful for PHX. Yes I have heard how much better it is to backhaul at DFW. I disagree with taht.

Also, when it is my choice, I will take US ONT-PHX-DFW over AA ONT-DFW. Just my experience with AA and their dumpy MD80s.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
Phoenix is not Atlanta with Florida to its south( large population). PHX has that large state, California, next door with 2 huge international airports....] How many live with in 500 miles from Phoenix ? The only place PHX can draw tons of traffic on is Tucson.

All of Southern California is within 500 miles of PHX, along with Vegas. These places have their own airport, while Tucsonans may take a 2 hour drive if the fare difference is low enough.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 23):
However, they also need some sort of draw, whether it's casino gambling (Las Vegas) or theme parks (Orlando).

Arizona has several Indian Casinos which offer odds equal to that on the Vegas Strip. The problem is it isn't Las Vegas.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 26):

Maybe UA should shift its hub from LAX to PHX as a domestic hub, allowing SFO to be primarily international?

Who knows? They seem to run from any aggressive moves that DL and AA make.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 23):
the Canadians who show up with golf clubs

I've seen planes coming and going from Canada with nearly 100 sets of golf clubs.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 15):

Don't they close the airport at 118F?

No. Last summer it hit 118, and as a result all CRJs were grounded for about two hours as their performance charts only go to 47C (116.6F). Since everything is officially measured in Celsius, once it hit 48C (118.4F), no more flying.

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):


Back in 1990, NW flew 727s into PHX. The summer temp rarely exceeded 120 degrees but that year it did a few times. The problem was that the T/0 charts and tabulated data only reflected limits up to 120 degrees, so a couple of times the T/0s were postponed until the temp dropped. The whole problem was quickly fixed when Boeing faxed the weight limit data with higher temps to NW. As a second officer at the time, I distinctly remember having copies of the faxed pages stuck in the weight manual.

HP had that issue that summer too, except Boeing wasn't as quick for the 732/3 numbers being updated.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
rwsea
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):
However, PHX is still a very strong domestic hub, so international service seems to be the problem here.

Why would you say it's such a strong domestic hub?

- It's not in a good location. It geographically is best suited to California-Southern US traffic or Western US to Mexico traffic. This is redundant for a large part with the service already offered at LAX and DFW.
- It's not a major business market. Sure the area has lots of tourism and leisure traffic, but not much in the way of business travel.
- There's a heavy WN presence at the airport, which further trashes yields.

PHX can play a niche role for Mexico and for smaller cities in the Mountain West and California, but for anything else it's totally redundant with DFW and LAX. Don't see much use for a large hub in a low-yield market with significant competition on a go-forward basis.
 
jporterfi
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 16):
Not really. What AA learned with the short-lived hubs in SJC, BNA and RDU is that nobody wants to connect when there is a non-stop, even if it's not (gasp!) on AA. Why change in PHX when you can fly non-stop SFO/SMF/SJC/FAT to DFW on AA mainline, or coast-to-coast on AA and US.

        

In line with this, consider that other airlines have hubs in the region (SLC, DEN, SFO), so there are many nonstops between western cities. what Wingtips56 said is especially true when it comes to short stage lengths. No one is going to fly TUS-PHX-PDX when they can fly TUS-PDX on AS, unless the prices are radically different. Even if they are, many people will pay for a n/s.
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 33):
No one is going to fly TUS-PHX-PDX when they can fly TUS-PDX on AS, unless the prices are radically different. Even if they are, many people will pay for a n/s.

Your point stands for sure, but most of the time N/S flights are more expensive and many times much more expensive. The other thing is though on a route like TUS-PDX there is only one nonstop so having connecting options gives a much wider variety of departure and arrival times. Though, if I am connecting TUS-Anywhere-PDX I may as well just drive to PHX and get the nonstop.
 
uberflieger
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Thread starter):
PHX has gotten the shaft in the mergers of AW/US and it's looking like US/AA is going to be the same

Post merger growth at PHX is impressive. Doesn't look at all like it's 'getting the shaft'

Largest US Airline Hubs Summer '14 (by FL787 Jul 24 2014 in Civil Aviation)

American increased seats at PHX 9.3% YOY, flights 6.9% YOY. Of all the hubs only ORD added slightly more seats post merger, but Sky Harbor easily beats it for number of flights.
 
steex
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 35):
American increased seats at PHX 9.3% YOY, flights 6.9% YOY. Of all the hubs only ORD added slightly more seats post merger, but Sky Harbor easily beats it for number of flights.

I don't know what the real figures are without looking at schedules, but neither of those growth numbers is truly accurate. Note the caveat listed in the introduction of the thread you linked:

Quote:
NOTE: AA and US are combined in the numbers for this year but not the numbers for YoY comparisons. Even though the resultant AA/US hub increases aren't really new capacity, it does show how much the hub has really grown with the merger.


[Edited 2014-08-05 16:09:24]
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

Exactly. LAS used to be a big hub for America's Pest, I mean, America West. The merger killed LAS America West, and PHX got the nod.

Punks.
 
RobertPhoenix
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:20 pm

Many years ago I heard a lecture from Conway (or was it Beauvais ! ) who said that if you folded a map of America in two, that Atlanta landed on top of Phoenix, meaning that Phoenix had the potential to be as big a hub as Atlanta.

I don't know how many other flyers are like me, but if I go to Europe I want to take off as late as possible so as to arrive at my destination with the least amount of day left to survive. Sure I lose the day when I arrive, but I've already worked a day on the day of departure. And then there is no comparison for the next day of my Europe trip.

So my thought is that Phoenix could be a hub for west coast passengers, with 787 and A350 flights direct to cities in Europe and beyond. Yes, you have to change planes in Phoenix, but that saves changing in whatever European hub you fly to. And with the good weather on the west coast and in Phoenix the connection times can be a lot shorter than when you fly into Europe and change planes.
 
uberflieger
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 36):
Note the caveat listed in the introduction of the thread you linked

  
FL787 only combined AA/US for total numbers of seats & flights listed, but excluded the respective merger partner for YOY increases at each of the hubs, at least that's how I read it?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:37 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):
Back in 1990, NW flew 727s into PHX. The summer temp rarely exceeded 120 degrees but that year it did a few times. The problem was that the T/0 charts and tabulated data only reflected limits up to 120 degrees, so a couple of times the T/0s were postponed until the temp dropped. The whole problem was quickly fixed when Boeing faxed the weight limit data with higher temps to NW. As a second officer at the time, I distinctly remember having copies of the faxed pages stuck in the weight manual.

I'm aware. I was working at KPHX that day for CO and many of our aircraft diverted.

The next day the performance charts were updated to something like 128F, IIRC. My point was that there's no "we close the airport at X temperature" rule in PHX.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
steex
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 39):
FL787 only combined AA/US for total numbers of seats & flights listed, but excluded the respective merger partner for YOY increases at each of the hubs, at least that's how I read it?

I believe what he meant is actually that the 2014 figures include both airlines combined, but the 2013 numbers used for the YOY comparison include only his numbers from the 2013 list (which would've been only the hub carrier without its merger partner).

As a result, in a hypothetical stagnant scenario where US had a "hub" with 100 flights and AA had 10 flights at the same airport, it would've shown up as a 10% YOY increase because the combined AA/US had 110 flights in 2014 and the hub carrier (US) had 100 flights in 2013.
 
allegiantflyer
Posts: 360
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 32):
Why would you say it's such a strong domestic hub?

- It's not in a good location. It geographically is best suited to California-Southern US traffic or Western US to Mexico traffic. This is redundant for a large part with the service already offered at LAX and DFW.
- It's not a major business market. Sure the area has lots of tourism and leisure traffic, but not much in the way of business travel.
- There's a heavy WN presence at the airport, which further trashes yields.

Wrong? AA's LAX domestic market isnt as big as everyone on here is making it sound to be. Sure PHX Is less populated, that's a no brainier, But at the same time The Phoenix Metro Area still has around 4.5 million people in the area, and is growing believe it or not. why? because of BUSINESS many businesses are coming into town because of low taxes so to say PHX isnt much of a "Business market" is rather incorrect. I will agree that it will be downsized a bit, But Im sure it will stay as a DCA sized hub, there's just to much local traffic for the entire market to get cut.

http://www.workforce.az.gov/pubs/dem...ity%20Population%20Projections.pdf
 
32andBelow
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting RobertPhoenix (Reply 38):

Many years ago I heard a lecture from Conway (or was it Beauvais ! ) who said that if you folded a map of America in two, that Atlanta landed on top of Phoenix, meaning that Phoenix had the potential to be as big a hub as Atlanta.

I don't know how many other flyers are like me, but if I go to Europe I want to take off as late as possible so as to arrive at my destination with the least amount of day left to survive. Sure I lose the day when I arrive, but I've already worked a day on the day of departure. And then there is no comparison for the next day of my Europe trip.

So my thought is that Phoenix could be a hub for west coast passengers, with 787 and A350 flights direct to cities in Europe and beyond. Yes, you have to change planes in Phoenix, but that saves changing in whatever European hub you fly to. And with the good weather on the west coast and in Phoenix the connection times can be a lot shorter than when you fly into Europe and change planes.

Going backwards makes 0 sense. Absolutely 0. Everyone East of Phoenix can just go an extra few minutes. Everyone West of Phoenix can just go direct. It would be like making people in NYC go to DTW on the way to Europe.
 
rwsea
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 34):
Your point stands for sure, but most of the time N/S flights are more expensive and many times much more expensive. The other thing is though on a route like TUS-PDX there is only one nonstop so having connecting options gives a much wider variety of departure and arrival times. Though, if I am connecting TUS-Anywhere-PDX I may as well just drive to PHX and get the nonstop.

But AA (and other airlines) look for routes with high yields. They don't want to chase the price-sensitive traveller willing to add hours of connecting time to save $50.

Quoting RobertPhoenix (Reply 38):
So my thought is that Phoenix could be a hub for west coast passengers, with 787 and A350 flights direct to cities in Europe and beyond. Yes, you have to change planes in Phoenix, but that saves changing in whatever European hub you fly to. And with the good weather on the west coast and in Phoenix the connection times can be a lot shorter than when you fly into Europe and change planes.

All the west coast cities already have one if not multiple daily flights to Europe. Additionally they are all well-connected to midwest/east coast hubs that offer the most important destinations. Many see connecting in Europe vs. the US as an advantage anyway, as you get the longer flight on an EU carrier that likely has better service, and don't have to stress about going through immigration and re-checking luggage on the flight back to the US. Being SFO-based, I ALWAYS connect in Europe (assuming there's no non-stop) as the connections are much easier and save hours of time.
 
travaz
Posts: 853
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RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting AllegiantFlyer (Reply 42):
because of BUSINESS many businesses are coming into town because of low taxes so to say PHX isnt much of a "Business market" is rather incorrect

Intel, Boeing, Honeywell, General Dynamics,L3 Communications, Amazon, First Solar and on and on to name a few all have large operations in the Phoenix Area
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting travaz (Reply 45):
Intel, Boeing, Honeywell, General Dynamics,L3 Communications, Amazon, First Solar and on and on to name a few all have large operations in the Phoenix Area

Are those companies enough to support the hub?
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting travaz (Reply 45):

Intel, Boeing, Honeywell, General Dynamics,L3 Communications, Amazon, First Solar and on and on to name a few all have large operations in the Phoenix Area

The interesting thing about your list is that it did not even include any of the Fortune 500 companies that are headquartered in Phoenix such as Avnet, Republic Services, Freeport McMoRan, PetsMart, or Insight.

Quoting D L X (Reply 46):


Quoting travaz (Reply 45):
Intel, Boeing, Honeywell, General Dynamics,L3 Communications, Amazon, First Solar and on and on to name a few all have large operations in the Phoenix Area

Are those companies enough to support the hub?

Apparently so because 2 major carriers have hubs in PHX.
 
RobertPhoenix
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:00 am

RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting rwsea (Reply 44):
All the west coast cities already have one if not multiple daily flights to Europe. Additionally they are all well-connected to midwest/east coast hubs that offer the most important destinations. Many see connecting in Europe vs. the US as an advantage anyway, as you get the longer flight on an EU carrier that likely has better service, and don't have to stress about going through immigration and re-checking luggage on the flight back to the US.

I don't see any direct connections from West Coast to Budapest, Zagreb, Belgrade, Athens etc but maybe there is not enough traffic even if you grab all that is available from the whole west coast.

But your comment about US customs and border control is a valid one, and one that precludes quick connections on the way back.
 
travaz
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

RE: Why Did AA Take LAX Over PHX?

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 47):
The interesting thing about your list is that it did not even include any of the Fortune 500 companies that are headquartered in Phoenix such as Avnet, Republic Services, Freeport McMoRan, PetsMart, or Insight.

My list was by no means complete just an example of some of the better know large companies.

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