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Sandgroper
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PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:19 am

Just announced and certainly will be loved by all those with extreme charges from Taxis, proposed underground rail link connecting all terminals into the city:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-0...ink-to-be-sunk-underground/5650550
Sandgroper
 
bunumuring
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:35 am

Great idea!
Just hope it doesn't become a "Sydney Airport rail link Mark 2" with ridiculous prices and non-dedicated carriages! I sometimes catch it and love it but the price!?!?!
Now, about that Tullamarine rail link, it is still happening, isn't it?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
RickNRoll
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 1):
Just hope it doesn't become a "Sydney Airport rail link Mark 2" with ridiculous prices

Did you say you want ridiculous prices? OK, you shall have them.  
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:28 pm

I wonder why they have decided to tunnel?

Quote:
with tunnelling to start in the marginal seat of Forrestfield.

Alrighty, thats cleared up then... Never going to get built though.
BV
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:34 pm

$1.9 billion to build that in PER? No chance.

It has some of the most inflated construction costs around, which will certainly make it a massive challenge to get this built.

Great idea though.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 4):
It has some of the most inflated construction costs around, which will certainly make it a massive challenge to get this built.

$1.9bn for 8.5km of rail line seems inflated enough already acording to standard rail construction costs a full 8.5km twin track tunnel and 5 stations should cost $950m.

We can pour $1bn into a pointless stadium so that amount should be possible to allocate to a rail line.
BV
 
SKAirbus
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:48 pm

The Sydney Airport rail link is a huge rip off... $17.20, an inflated cost to feed the fat cat company execs and to travel on local trains. Also, SYD is unusual that they charge for transfers between terminals.
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jrfspa320
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:02 am

Apparently there will be two stations, one at the T1/T2 area, and one at T3/T4...seems a waste when the long term plan is to consolidate around the international side.
 
DexSwart
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:23 am

In other news, the Melbourne airport link is starting progress soon! I can just use my Myki card to get there, as it'll be a regular metro service. Which would cost me around $10, as I'm from a regional centre, close to the middle of Victoria. Metro services cost nothing for regional travellers.

I find it ironic that the capital for the Mining State of Australia has such a ridiculous hush cost for a not very long journey at all. That being said, everything in WA is crazy expensive.   
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
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Dan23
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 7):

The new station at T3/T4 is not a waste as that area is slated to eventually become a large 'business park' after consolidation of the terminals in the T1/T2 precinct. There are also residential areas well within the catchment.

As part of the project, a third station is also proposed to the east of the airport at Forrestfield.
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stlgph
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:51 am

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 5):
$1.9bn for 8.5km of rail line seems inflated enough already acording to standard rail construction costs a full 8.5km twin track tunnel and 5 stations should cost $950m.

Inflated? Hell that's a bargain if that's the actual cost (which, likely isn't). In New York City it's $2.3B u.s. dollars per 1 u.s. mile for subway line ... and increasing.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:00 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
Inflated? Hell that's a bargain if that's the actual cost (which, likely isn't). In New York City it's $2.3B u.s. dollars per 1 u.s. mile for subway line ... and increasing.

RBA figures suggest $50m per km plus $60m per station. Perth is not difficult terrain for tunneling as far as I know and access should be relativly simple, also the integration into the existing system is straighforward so those figures should be pretty close.
BV
 
QFA380
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:08 am

There was an AFR article over the weekend outlining Australia's grossly expensive infrastructure costs, how it is mostly driven by government rather than contractors or labour costs. Endless studies and they still can't meet cost and time requirements.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
Also, SYD is unusual that they charge for transfers between terminals.

Brisbane charges $5 for transfers, Sydney is $5.40. I find it easier and cheaper to use the ordinary bus between them for 87c. No lugging things up endless flights of stairs.

They can't let you just get on without paying for a ticket. It is of course possible to buy a transfer and get on the train, buy a ticket at a gateless station if need be.
 
keen2fly
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:46 am

Well done PER! Meanwhile, us in AKL can all but dream for such a link...
 
SKAirbus
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
Brisbane charges $5 for transfers, Sydney is $5.40. I find it easier and cheaper to use the ordinary bus between them for 87c. No lugging things up endless flights of stairs.

I still it is wrong to charge people to transfer... Sydney is already awkward enough in that you have to cross a runway to get from international to domestic, but then to charge them on top... Hardly a big advertisement for a hub airport. I'd sooner use MEL where you can walk.

At LHR all busses (even the local TFL ones) are free within the airport zone, also the Heathrow Express is free between T1,2,3 and T5.

Oh well! I'm happy that PER is getting a train link... Beats rip-off taxis for sure!
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Zkpilot
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:02 am

Well done PER. Will make a big difference!
As for why tunneling? Won't that save about 2km off the length rather than going around the runways?
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Cubsrule
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
They can't let you just get on without paying for a ticket.

Sure they could--it's just that no one wants to shoulder that cost. Heck, at BOS one can get anywhere served by the T for free if he boards the Silver Line at an airport terminal.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bwwt
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 8):

In other news, the Melbourne airport link is starting progress soon! I can just use my Myki card to get there, as it'll be a regular metro service. Which would cost me around $10, as I'm from a regional centre, close to the middle of Victoria. Metro services cost nothing for regional travellers.

Is that actually happening soon? I was under the impression it was delayed. Again.
 
DavidByrne
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 11):

Quoting stlgph (Reply 10):
Inflated? Hell that's a bargain if that's the actual cost (which, likely isn't). In New York City it's $2.3B u.s. dollars per 1 u.s. mile for subway line ... and increasing.

RBA figures suggest $50m per km plus $60m per station. Perth is not difficult terrain for tunneling as far as I know and access should be relativly simple, also the integration into the existing system is straighforward so those figures should be pretty close.

The costs for going underground will vary hugely according to the depth and construction methodology, the number and depth of the stations, geological conditions, surface disruption and many other factors. In the Auckland City Rail Link project, the cost (admittedly including extra rolling stock) for 3.5 km under the central city is estimated at $NZ2.86 billion - around $NZ820 million ($A744 million) per km. Some of that is cut and cover, some of it is deep tunnelling through volcanic material. Of the two new stations, one will be relatively shallow, and one at 30m+ depth - it's very steep terrain on the surface. From the Perth costs quoted above, I'm assuming that most of the line will be "cut and cover" and that it's pretty flat? Even then, around $A100m all-up per km seems very light.
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BoeingVista
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:24 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
There was an AFR article over the weekend outlining Australia's grossly expensive infrastructure costs, how it is mostly driven by government rather than contractors or labour costs.

No, the cost is driven by government idology (both sides) that tries to avoid 'spending' on infrastructure so gets into convoluted PFI schemes with industry that a) cost 3 times as much as just paying for the damn thing in the first place and b) grant private firms a milking licence for the the general public.
BV
 
Razza74
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:24 pm

I do not see this happening at all

Twice the current Liberal government has promised a rail line to a population centre at Ellenbrook - nothing, they promised an inner city light rail line - nothing and now they are promising after the next election an airport line . . . me thinks not going to happen

Lets put this in to perspective 2 billion = 50 million $40 taxi rides (most likely the taxi fare in to Perth from the airport)

IMHO it is a great deal of money that could be better spent on other infrastructure (20 grade separated interchanges for example) that would be of greater economic benefit to Perth

Razza74
Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
 
DexSwart
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting bwwt (Reply 17):
Is that actually happening soon? I was under the impression it was delayed. Again.

Last time I heard of it, but then again, our wise old Premier might just have some "delays" for the future. Either way, anything beats those awful SkyBusses.  

They have ads on TV all the time, though. They mention it. Along with finishing the East-West link and adding extra lanes on the Tullamarine freeway, which heads out to MEL to handle extra traffic.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 20):
IMHO it is a great deal of money that could be better spent on other infrastructure (20 grade separated interchanges for example) that would be of greater economic benefit to Perth

Ridiculous, Perth does not need 20 grade separated interchanges, it needs more public transport. Whether this is best public transport scheme for the money is the debate.

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 20):
Twice the current Liberal government has promised a rail line to a population centre at Ellenbrook - nothing, they promised an inner city light rail line - nothing and now they are promising after the next election an airport line

A fair point, this is probably a distraction... So whats Troy Busswell done now  
BV
 
DexSwart
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 20):
Twice the current Liberal government has promised a rail line to a population centre at Ellenbrook - nothing, they promised an inner city light rail line - nothing and now they are promising after the next election an airport line . . . me thinks not going to happen

I think most of Australia voted liberal because of Tony's propaganda campaign to "stop the boats" (before I get flamed, look up the amount of asylum seekers that fly in, compared to those that come by boat.)

And also his promise to stop the Carbon Tax. Which he actually delivered on!

And the worst budget in modern Australia's history. I get to look forward to higher Uni fees next year. Exciting.   

Although, I digress, politics are a necessary evil, and I'll get back on topic before I make enemies on this site.

But I agree, Razza. We've been hearing a lot of promises over the past few months. Especially to do with strengthening transport links and airports themselves. I'm assuming it'll get the green light, get delayed, and again, and again, and finally it'll get shelved with an alternative replacing it.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
Razza74
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:59 pm

I am a great fan of public transport but the way it is organised here in Perth is retarded - If I took public transport to work a net distance of 15km I would have to travel 55km on public transport.

Perth is one of the largest low density urban areas on Earth 150km long by 40 km (6000 square km) and growing, with 2.5 million people public transport will always struggle to reach a critical mass,

Whether 2 billion is spent on roads or other infrastructure (apart from the airport link) one would expect to get a lot of bang for your buck for that kind of money

Razza74
Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
 
777boi
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:58 pm

I find the public transport system here in Perth more than adequate! If I drive to work in the CBD, it takes me >20 mins, plus the time it takes me to find a park and then to walk to work! How ever, if I take the train, 8mins and I am in the city and 5 min later I am at my work! I welcome this new link and, as a frequent traveller, will be sure to avail of its use!
 
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jetfuel
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:13 pm

$1.9B would buy an awesome fleet of electric buses and and an express lane
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
psa188
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 24):
I am a great fan of public transport but the way it is organised here in Perth is retarded

Based on old experience [1998], Perth's public transport system is fine if you're headed to the central area but lackluster if you're taking a bus somewhere. I recall the bus to the PER domestic terminal not running that often. Maybe the service has been improved since 1998.
 
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csturdiv
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 1):
Great idea!
Just hope it doesn't become a "Sydney Airport rail link Mark 2" with ridiculous prices and non-dedicated carriages! I sometimes catch it and love it but the price!?!?!

Last summer (well summer for the Northern Hemisphere) I was in the Sydney area for an extended business trip. The company apartment was in Mascot and I would ride the line that stops at the airport when I went into the city. I think roundtrip was something like $5.40. When I was flying home, I took the train from Mascot to the International Terminal, it was two stops away and the one way ticket was over $7.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
DexSwart
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:09 pm

Let's face it, they really should ask for Melbourne's help on this one. They can manage to move hundreds of thousands more than Perth a day. {duck

What type of ground does Perth have? Clay? That might increase the cost, slightly. Not to 1.9B though.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:51 pm

In Brisbane the Airport link is priced such that (from where I live anyway) if 2 people are going to the airport then cost of Taxi/train is similar and if 3 people then cheaper to catch a taxi.

In my experience everything to do with airports is expensive. I doubt it has to do with the retailers, more the Corporation which owns the Airport, is charging huge rents.

Of course if you own Sydney Airport Shares they are doing pretty well.

Ruscoe
 
fiscal
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 29):
What type of ground does Perth have? Clay? That might increase the cost, slightly. Not to 1.9B though.

The soil varies, but most of it is sand. Also, quote a high figure, and come in under it at the conclusion and you can say you were under budget. Always a good thing for a government.

Mind you, I doubt it will get much patronage, it will be a status thing. Most fly in fly out's live anywhere except along the railway line, and local use from Forestfield will not be great either.

I am not yet convinced it is good value for money.
 
bill142
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:48 am

1.8bn for 8.5Km of tunnel? Sounds like a bargain compared to the $1bn per kilometre we're paying for the 5km BAT tunnel in BNE.
 
Razza74
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:41 pm

Perth does not have at the moment have a 24/7 public transport system, as PER is curfew free and a number of flight do arrive depart after midnight along with the FIFO departures around 6am a major overhaul of our public transport system would be required to enable those passenger to benefit,

Razza74
Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
 
psa188
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RE: PER - $1.9B Underground Rail Link To City

Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 6):
The Sydney Airport rail link is a huge rip off...

The "gouge the airport traveller" mindset exists in the USA as well. JFK, EWR, SFO and soon OAK charge a rip-off fee to use the "Airtrains" or BART services to the airport.

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