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adicool
Topic Author
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:05 am

I was wondering if in the near future we will see some more international frequencies at BSB.

As for now, the only international routes ex BSB are

AF - CDG
TP - LIS
AA - MIA
AR - EZE
CM - PTY
Z8 - VVI
DL - ATL

considering BSB is the airport to the capital of Brazil, I was wondering if there will be some more flights to the cities like LIM, SCL, ASU, BOG or even MAD and FRA, possibly AMS (if AF does well).
I know that the city is mainly government, but it's the government of one of the most populous countries in the world. Also, yields shouldn't be too bad considering that the income in the BSB area is one of the highest in Brazil.

Especially the missing link to LIM, SCL and BOG seems somewhat odd. AV could perfectly fly BOG-BSB and have O6 take care of any further destinations.

How are TP, AF, DL and AA doing on their respective BSB routes?
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:13 am

Personally, I want to see IAH-BSB. I knew there isn't much if a market from IAH alone, but perhaps throughout the UA system there is. Just my   
A man is only as big as the amount of strings on his guitar.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2977
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
Especially the missing link to LIM, SCL and BOG seems somewhat odd. AV could perfectly fly BOG-BSB and have O6 take care of any further destinations.

The lack of lights between BSB and LIM/BOG may have more to do with frequency restrictions on the respective bilateral than if there's a demand.
BSB international catchment area does include Goiania and that adds up a different kind of traffic but other major Brazilian cites potential may show up more on international airlines looking to expand outside of SAO and RIO right now than Brasilia; CNF, POA and perhaps SSA.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
As for now, the only international routes ex BSB are

TAM operates BSB-MIA 4x weekly with the B-767-316ER.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 2):
The lack of lights between BSB and LIM/BOG may have more to do with frequency restrictions on the respective bilateral than if there's a demand.

AV found a way to get around that by having TA operate SJO-BOG-BSB. Both T0 and LP flew LIM-BSB. LATAM wants to resume LIM-BSB; however the flight could be operated by either LP or JJ...
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5827
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:00 am

I guess IB flying MAD-BSB when they get their A359s would make the most sense next. Brazil is now a Oneworld fortress yet the two only European non-stops are Skyteam and Star Alliance.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 4):
Brazil is now a Oneworld fortress

Perhaps you were referring to BSB? TAM operates a major domestic hub at BSB and LATAM is interested in building up its operations at BSB...

TAM at BSB:

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Photo © Ricardo Hebmuller

 
adicool
Topic Author
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:51 pm

because of its geographical location in Brazil, I am sure BSB could function very well as a hub for for example SCL-BSB-MAO/REC/FOR, avoiding GRU. Also, with O6 having a certain presence there, LH could serve cities like ASU and VVI via a code-share with O6 via BSB.
After all, I am mostly puzzled that there are no direct flights from SCL and LIM to BSB. To me, that seems very odd in some way, but JJ/LA and AV must have their reseaons
 
rg787
Posts: 118
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RE: Future Of BSB

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:32 pm

BSB is the biggest domestic hub in number of flights from what I've heard. LIM somehow didn't work but maybe the reason is that it was started by two companies almost at the same time and if I remember correctly it was quite a busy time in BSB for starting international routes. Would someone care to search for the loads on BSB? I would do it myself but I don't even know where to start.
 
VC10er
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RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:07 pm

How long is the flight from MIA or ATL to BSB? What equipment is used? Can a 757 make it?

I wonder if UA put BSB from IAH would they use an ac with flat beds? I know IAD has it's issues, but has UA dispensed with the capitol to capitol concept?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1993
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RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 8):
How long is the flight from MIA or ATL to BSB? What equipment is used? Can a 757 make it?
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-bsb,+iad-bsb,+mia-bsb

I don't think the 757 has legs for these non-MIA fights.
 
migair54
Posts: 2452
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 4):
I guess IB flying MAD-BSB when they get their A359s would make the most sense next. Brazil is now a Oneworld fortress yet the two only European non-stops are Skyteam and Star Alliance.

I also think that IB will serve BSB, but i´m not sure when, however it could be also as as triangular route, first I think SSA, REC or FOR could get the new flights but one of them could work with BSB also initially.

Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
possibly AMS (if AF does well).

No chance at all, because AF is already there, so unless the place is a gold mine you will never see KLM starting the route.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8587
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 8):
How long is the flight from MIA or ATL to BSB? What equipment is used? Can a 757 make it?

Should be about 7 hours from MIA and about 8 from ATL. 757 should be able to make it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:26 pm

AA currently flies the 757 MIA-BSB-MIA. 7:38hr southbound, 7:48hr northbound. Booked just shy of full tonight southbound, and is booked full on the return tomorrow.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5827
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RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 10):
I also think that IB will serve BSB, but i´m not sure when, however it could be also as as triangular route, first I think SSA, REC or FOR could get the new flights but one of them could work with BSB also initially.

I can't see the logic of a triangular flight with REC/FOR/SSA. It would lose any competitive advantage compared to flying BSB-GRU-Europe.

Iberia tried REC/FOR and it was a failure. Those are also mainly tourist destinations from Europe. BSB is mainly a high-income (for Brazilian standards) local market. And Iberia under IAG seems to target more those markets rather than holiday destinations.

Whenever IB receives those A359 (fewer seats and lower costs), IMO BSB would be one of the best "secondary" destinations that they could open from MAD. They could just start with a 3 or 4 weekly (like AF does).

LATAM (Oneworld) is strengthening their BSB base with connections to secondary Brazilian cities and likely to some nearby international destinations. To some extent, GRU / BSB could eventually work (at least from Iberia's PoV) as JFK / PHL for AA (saving all differences)... GRU and JFK focused on O&D traffic and BSB and PHL (smaller O&D) on connections. I assume being the capital city, there is some reasonable TAM-OW FF customer base.

Brand-new plane and MAD being an excellent hub (compared to LIS or CDG) and also much less of a hassle compared to changing planes at GRU. IB is also expanding their European network (at least on par with TAP) and improving their soft-product.

I can't see a reason why a MAD-BSB wouldn't work in a few years time with the A359.
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3916
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 9):

Quoting VC10er (Reply 8):
How long is the flight from MIA or ATL to BSB? What equipment is used? Can a 757 make it?
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-bsb,+iad-bsb,+mia-bsb

I don't think the 757 has legs for these non-MIA fights.

Delta currently flies the 757-200 from ATL to BSB.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
RAGAZZO777
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:33 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
LATAM wants to resume LIM-BSB; however the flight could be operated by either LP or JJ...

Yet JJ is only deploying a "small" A320 to LIM from GRU these days. Pretty pathetic for an airline that has 767s and 777s in its fleet..
JESÚS, TE AMO !!
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 15):
Yet JJ is only deploying a "small" A320 to LIM from GRU these days. Pretty pathetic for an airline that has 767s and 777s in its fleet..

I'm not sure if you are aware that LA/JJ operate the LIM-GRU route jointly as one carrier, (LA 763 daily, LA/JJ A320 10x weekly); JJ deploys wide-body a/c on two regional routes, (GRU-EZE and GRU-SCL).
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3595
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:09 pm

I am a bit surprised no NYC or LON flights?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:18 pm

Yes BSB is somewhat in the geographical center of Brazil but not the economical center. To the North and the West we may see around 5% of the Brazilian GDP while to the East, Southeast and South we see around 90%
And that regions do not have that gain....

The Brazilian interaction with the West is limited. Our ties to the Latin America that side (Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador) is very limited, and this also limits BSB.

BSB also is a new city, with few immigrants and the city does not have the ties in terms of economic activities to other markets (such as oil & gas for Rio de Janeiro or Financial & Industrials for Sao Paulo). Also, due to its limited business activity Brasilia is always dependent on major markets.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 17):
I am a bit surprised no NYC or LON flights?

Negatives
1) Limited number of Americans and English people living in Brasilia
2) Limited businesses (government in general)
3) Limited extra activity (Congress, Fairs, Sports Events, etc)
4) Limited VFR
5) Not a leisure destination

Positives
1) Good leisure origin
2) Good connectivity for domestic markets (but be in mind that only 5% of GDP make optimal connections thru BSB for LON or NYC, as for many markets they require longer domestic flights which are not so comfortable as some long haul planes)
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 17):
I am a bit surprised no NYC or LON flights?

Pan Am had one or two weekly flights that stopped in BSB (among a variety of other stops) as early as 1960. In 1969 it was a once-weekly 707 nonstop from JFK. Continued to GIG.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:46 am

BSB is relevant domestically for being the capital and because the markets to the West and to the North are so remote and unaccessible. Even though these markets are less relevant economically, they tend to be more reliant on air service within the country, which explains why the traffic is significant domestically.
The fact that Brazil has very weak ties to most South American countries also explains why BSB has limited international service.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3091
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
I was wondering if there will be some more flights to the cities like LIM, SCL, ASU, BOG or even MAD and FRA
LP LIM-BSB thrice a week with 319 was shelved in 2011.
Brasilia didn't work for both Bogota and Lima. However, CM PTY-BSB 4x weekly started in 2011 and it's 11x weekly nowadays. Where's the difference?




.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 10):
it could be also as as triangular route, first I think SSA, REC or FOR could get the new flights but one of them could work with BSB also initially

Bear in mind how the triangular IB MAD-FOR-REC-MAD 3x weekly with 343 was dropped three years ago.
I don't believe if any longer segment than [FOR-REC] might work successfully at BSB, taking into account how the dedicated TP LIS-BSB 7x weekly and AF CDG-BSB 3x weekly are attending the traffic heading to Europe.




.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
AV found a way to get around that by having TA operate SJO-BOG-BSB.

Brazil and Costa Rica is regulated by an open skies agreement, in terms of the air transportation relationship.
AV found a niche back in 2012 by launching the SJO-BOG-BSB 4x weekly operated by LACSA from Costa Rica and involved within GRUPO TACA, in those days.
Due to the decentralization of AV in San Jose, that route was suddenly canceled.

Regards.

[Edited 2014-08-09 19:16:41]
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
rg787
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:28 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:43 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
LP LIM-BSB thrice a week with 319 was shelved in 2011.
Brasilia didn't work for both Bogota and Lima. However, CM PTY-BSB 4x weekly started in 2011 and it's 11x weekly nowadays. Where's the difference?

CM is pretty good for connections to the US. Probably cheaper.

As for LIM, BOG and the likes, I actually live in BSB and I may be saying BS but until sometime ago, people only had eyes to the US, mainly MCO. Time has passed and people are starting to look to Europe. Europe was seen as very expensive and many didn't even bother looking at prices. Latin america is seen, in my perception, as mainly Buenos Aires, Santiago and Bariloche. This may change in the future tough, and I hope so, but as for using BOG and LIM for connections it doesn't seem to make much sense for us. Going to GRU isn't that much worse when the full trip is only 5 hours or so long, door to door.

TP did a very good job when it started LIS from BSB. It was the only international flight at the airport and I had a perception that after this, traffic to Europe boosted dramatically. AR and Pluna also did a good job.

I don't think BSB isn't capable of being an international HUB. North of GRU is almost always the same travel time or less going thru BSB instead of GRU. When going from everything south of bolivia to Europe, BSB would also be a good connection point.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3091
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting rg787 (Reply 22):
CM is pretty good for connections to the US.

I concur there related to a better connectivity through PTY as compared to both LIM and BOG: more destinations and more weekly frequencies.
Not only from the United States, Panama City offers a variety of non-stop flights to other stations placed in the Caribbean and Mexico which are not available through Bogota and Lima.




.

Quoting rg787 (Reply 22):
BSB isn't capable of being an international HUB. North of GRU is almost always the same travel time or less going thru BSB instead of GRU. When going from everything south of bolivia to Europe, BSB would also be a good connection point.

I remember an older thread stating that BSB was ranked among the top destinations in Brazil.
The conclusion is that the traffic at BSB is mostly oriented to the domestic demand of passengers.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
The fact that Brazil has very weak ties to most South American countries also explains why BSB has limited international service.

Not true at all, Brazil is a top trade destination for several nations in South America, including Argentina, Uruguay and even Paraguay and Bolivia. Argentina is the third-largest trade destination for Brazil.

There is a massive amount of regional trade and business between Brazil and its regional partners.

In addition, the non-business traffic between Brazil and its regional partners has been growing tremendously over the recent years. Brazilian tourism to Argentina, Chile and Uruguay is very active.

The potential for greater aviation traffic between Brazil and its regional partners is tremendous. Brazil's future lies in its economic, political and cultural ties to its regional partners.
 
adicool
Topic Author
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 10):
Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
possibly AMS (if AF does well).

No chance at all, because AF is already there, so unless the place is a gold mine you will never see KLM starting the route.

never say never. The CDG-BSB route has just been introduced, and I am assuming nothing will happen before AF would go daily on the route. But looking at other destinations (LIM, PTY, BOG), AFKL pursue the strategy of rather introducing another link between their two hubs to a destination already served from either CDG or AMS, than increasing frequencies, as it just happened with BOG (KL will introduce flights AMS-BOG-Cali) and LIM.

Quoting rg787 (Reply 7):

BSB is the biggest domestic hub in number of flights from what I've heard. LIM somehow didn't work but maybe the reason is that it was started by two companies almost at the same time and if I remember correctly it was quite a busy time in BSB for starting international routes. Would someone care to search for the loads on BSB? I would do it myself but I don't even know where to start.

the strong focus on domestic destinations is a huge advantage BSB would have in terms of becoming a international hub. GRU and GIG are congested and slot restricted (at least GRU, GIG as well?). Since O6 is very present in BSB (unlike in other cities), *A could make fantastic use of the already strong presence there.

In my mind, a LH FRA-BSB-SCL route would be perfect, thrice weekly, and offering both legs in codeshare with O6, hence introducing a direct capital to capital service between BSB and SCL and making BSB a good point to reach remotes cities.

As it was mentioned here before, BSB could be what PHD is for AA - and airport mainly used for connections, yet also offers as the capital of one of the biggest countries in the world, decent yields and somewhat OD traffic to sustain them. *A has to start making more use of O6 as to me, it is one of the top assets the Aviance group brought to *A, yet isn't used enough.

Anyone heard anything new about those possible O6 and Azul merger rumors?
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3091
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting adicool (Reply 25):
The CDG-BSB route has just been introduced, and I am assuming nothing will happen before AF would go daily on the route

AF CDG-BSB 3x weekly just began in March 2014 and it's too early to visualize this flight operating on a daily basis.
They're not alone in this scenario, TP LIS-BSB 7x weekly is attending the traffic heading to Europe, but it's just the first step for any European SkyTeam carrier.
On the other hand, G3 already operates a vast amount of flights bearing the AF code and touching Brasilia such as CNF, GRU, CWB, CGR, MAO, REC, FOR, GIG, SDU, GYN, IMP and so forth. This is the first step for the growth of KL-AF through BSB, in terms of connectivity.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
adicool
Topic Author
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:16 am

i know that TP entered a codeshare agreement with G3, does anyone know from which airports and to what cities this goes?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 24):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
The fact that Brazil has very weak ties to most South American countries also explains why BSB has limited international service.

That's not my quote.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:01 am

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 24):
Brazil is a top trade destination for several nations in South America

If that were a deciding factor, there would be multiple daily flights between Brazil and China.

Unfortunately Brazil is still an island within South America and Brazilians are oblivious to Spanish American countries.

Surely you can argue that the relationship and integration have evolved in the last few years, but the rhythm is really slow.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2977
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 29):
Unfortunately Brazil is still an island within South America and Brazilians are oblivious to Spanish American countries.

There's some truth to that.

Quote:
Surely you can argue that the relationship and integration have evolved in the last few years, but the rhythm is really slow.

Bet CM is doing its best to speed it up.
It's a mater of months PTY-BSB goes twice daily and yet another Brazilian airport comes in CM network.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
BNAOWB
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:01 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting adicool (Thread starter):
DL - ATL
Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 14):
Delta currently flies the 757-200 from ATL to BSB.

How critical are G3 connections at BSB for DL for the success of this ATL-BSB nonstop? And, which G3 destinations would typically have a decent number of connecting passengers to this DL flight?
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:07 pm

What routings do diplomats and Brazilian government officials based in BSB usually take to Africa and Asia?

Would be great to see EK servicing BSB-DXB, but this is probably near impossible!
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3091
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Future Of BSB

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting BNAOWB (Reply 31):
How critical are G3 connections at BSB for DL for the success of this ATL-BSB nonstop? And, which G3 destinations would typically have a decent number of connecting passengers to this DL flight?

I've just noticed how most of the Brazilian destinations listed on my earlier input are included within the DL-G3 codeshare agreement through Brasilia.
I don't get further information.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Future Of BSB

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
That's not my quote.

Apologies if misquoted!

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 29):
Unfortunately Brazil is still an island within South America and Brazilians are oblivious to Spanish American countries.

Surely you can argue that the relationship and integration have evolved in the last few years, but the rhythm is really slow.


My point is that economic, cultural and political interaction between Brazil and its neighbors is intense, and is growing. It is not true at all that "Brazilians are oblivious" to what happens around them. In fact, Brazilians are traveling more to regional centers than ever before, especially popular destinations in Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. Brazilians are found everywhere on the streets of Buenos Aires, on the beaches all over Punta del Este, on the mountains in Bariloche, and strolling through Santiago. Brazilian companies are setting up shop all over the continent and there is substantial interest in Brazil throughout the region.

BSB is an important destination and, just like all other large metro markets in Brazil, will see tremendous traffic growth with destinations in South America over the coming years.

In fact, it may only be a matter of time until all nations agree to completely homogenize and deregulate the commercial aviation sector in South America, eliminating restrictions on cross-border ownership and even permitting domestic cabotage by regional carriers. The trend is towards less restrictions, not more, especially if the policy making environment in Brasilia changes later this year.

BSB has a very favorable future, indeed!

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