29erUSA187
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When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:08 am

Hello all, I was at LAX a month ago and saw an A343 from air Tahiti Nui. I have heard that air Tahiti's load factors are not great, and the A343 is a pretty big but somewhat inefficient a/c. When will these planes be retired, and what will replace them? A338's? B788's?
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:16 am

I doubt that they can afford to replace them, even though them going out would do wonders for them.

TN is in a double bind, I'd say.
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747400sp
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:18 am

It more likely going to be A339s, are better yet, A359s. I will miss see those A340s when it happens.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:31 am

Any chance AF/KL has included some aircraft in their orders for TN (to be leased to TN maybe)? Isn't there a fair degree of cooperation there?
 
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mercure1
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:07 am

Whenever the politicians in Tahiti with blessing of French Parliament decide.

I predict A350 eventually.
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goldorak
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 3):
Any chance AF/KL has included some aircraft in their orders for TN (to be leased to TN maybe)? Isn't there a fair degree of cooperation there?

      why would they order some aircrafts for a competitor? They have no relationship outside a code-share agreement and an application for a JV with DL (that has not been approved, or sure about the current status TBH).
 
DeltaB717
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:03 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 5):
They have no relationship outside a code-share agreement

Thanks, that answers my question.
 
varig md-11
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:51 am

TN is purely dependant of the €€€ sent from Paris to buy new planes
Theres is no market logic....TN will be granted Metropolitan France taxpayers subsidies to buy A330neo only when local government will blackmail Paris enough
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Superfly
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:57 am

Hopefully they'll keep their gorgeous A340s around for a long time to come.
Their aircraft type is the least of their worries.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RWA380
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:43 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 2):
I will miss see those A340s when it happens
Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Hopefully they'll keep their gorgeous A340s around for a long time to come.
Their aircraft type is the least of their worries.

I bet that TN ends up being one of the last carriers flying the A-340 because they'll never be able to afford to replace them.

When they draw down their A-340 flying, we will discuss it here, many hoping TN will do a one last PPT-LAX-CDG flight with the last one in the fleet, a lucky few will do one leg or the other, then the type will be retired forever.

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 7):
TN will be granted Metropolitan France taxpayers subsidies to buy A330neo only when local government will blackmail Paris enough

Could it be possible to see TN get a "good deal" on some used 350s a decade down the line from somewhere in France?
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Superfly
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:08 am

Many of the armchair CEOs here in the forums see a 4-engine aircraft an assume that is the reason for all of Air Tahiti Nui's financial problems. They have a staff of over 800 employees an only 5 aircraft.
Sounds like their main financial problems are on the ground, not the number of engines their aircraft has.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
I bet that TN ends up being one of the last carriers flying the A-340 because they'll never be able to afford to replace them.

That is possible.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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scbriml
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Hopefully they'll keep their gorgeous A340s around for a long time to come.

I hope so, it's one of the best looking planes out there.    Unfortunately, in the UK we typically only see it at 35,000ft on its way to Paris.
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United_fan
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:49 am

Wouldn't TN have to go through legnthy ETOPS requirements?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
varig md-11
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:02 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
Could it be possible to see TN get a "good deal" on some used 350s a decade down the line from somewhere in France?

See, that's another possibility....once AF is sick and tired of the A350 they've been forced to buy while they wanted to concentrate on Boeing, TN can have them at unbeatable price.
Either way, TN will be "supported" by big daddy (= central state which still has its word to say at AF and/or decides on subsidies for remote territories)
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mercure1
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:05 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Many of the armchair CEOs here in the forums see a 4-engine aircraft an assume that is the reason for all of Air Tahiti Nui's financial problems. They have a staff of over 800 employees an only 5 aircraft.
Sounds like their main financial problems are on the ground, not the number of engines their aircraft has.

Employee count today is under 700, and over 80% are crew members.

TN is staff well, per outside analysis conducted in 2013.

Airline is 100% longhaul except for AKL, so its reliance on large compliment of crew members exist. Crews can be gone from PPT for 8 days on single trip to Paris for example or 5 days for Japan, so lots of crews are required to fly the schedule.

On the A340, yes its inefficient. Per study published by parliament committee last year, even A330 would produce 14% net savings benefit for TN. A350 far higher.
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varig md-11
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 14):
8 days on single trip to Paris for example

Isn't that a bit to much?
I mean for 12 hour flight time from BKK, TG crew spend one night at CDG and fly back
I understand flight time is longer but still
The crew is the same from PPT or they change at LAX?
If they swap at LAX I really don't understand the 8 days.
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mercure1
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:18 pm

Here is a fast Paris trip.


Day 1. PPPLAX
Day 2. arrive, rest
Day 3. LAXCDG
Day 4. Arrive CDG rest
Day 5. CDGLAX
Day 6. Rest
Day 7. LAXPPT
Day 8. Arrive home.

Above schedule works only in summer if all flights daily.
During winter Paris rotation can be as long as 12 days.

Paris trip generate about 40hrs duty for crew, nearly half of monthly allowed duty.
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Capt.Fantastic
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:20 pm

How long have they been flying PPT-LAX-CDG?
What equipment did they use before acquiring the A340?
 
747400sp
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Wouldn't TN have to go through legnthy ETOPS requirements?

Why go though at that! Look, there are airlines that are retiring their A345/6s, and I believe they would sell them at dirt cheap prices. So why can't TN buy some used A340 NGs, that where built after 2004. Most airliners have a good 20 years or more life span, and Tahiti is more of an vacation market than a business market, so I think using older jets will not really hurt them. TN would not be TN without A340s. Well I thought DL would not be DL with L1011s, so who knows.


PS, I would love to see that beautiful TN livery on an A340 NG.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 17):
How long have they been flying PPT-LAX-CDG?

LAX 1998, CDG 2002.

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 17):
What equipment did they use before acquiring the A340?

A340 has been the sole type TN has had since its formation.
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clickhappy
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 18):
beautiful TN livery on an A340 NG.

Or a DC-10-30 
 
MD80Nut
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:23 pm

I saw Air Tahiti's lovely A343 while transiting through LAX. It's one of my favorite looking A343s.

The A342 and A343 have grown to be among my favorite looking planes. They have the grace of the A330 with 4 engines. I've read posts saying their engines look like hair dryers, which they do, but they aren't the only 'buses with engines that look like that. The RR powered A330s and IAE powered A32Xs come to mind, yet they never get knocked for it.  

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nicode
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:29 pm

When will they have a decent codeshare with AF (and not one weekly IIRC) ?
AF doing CDG-LAX et TN LAX-PPT...

With the spare aircraft, maybe they could open a new route ?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting nicode (Reply 22):
When will they have a decent codeshare with AF (and not one weekly IIRC) ?
AF doing CDG-LAX et TN LAX-PPT...

Not anytime soon. Earlier this year authorities rejected inclusion of TN in the AF/DL JV Atlantic venture.

Quoting nicode (Reply 22):
With the spare aircraft, maybe they could open a new route ?

They already have a spare a/c. 5th A340 has been for sale.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
goldorak
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting nicode (Reply 22):
When will they have a decent codeshare with AF (and not one weekly IIRC) ?
AF doing CDG-LAX et TN LAX-PPT...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Not anytime soon. Earlier this year authorities rejected inclusion of TN in the AF/DL JV Atlantic venture.

You are confusing 2 different and unrelated things. Asking for approval of a simple code-share agreement or for a complex JV with revenues/loss sharing and fares coordination is not the same. The recent refusal of the US DOT for inclusion of TN in AF/DL JV does not mean anything in case they would apply for a simple code-share with AF operating solely CDG-LAX and TN operating solely LAX-PPT. Politics is only involved here, and we all know that when politics are involved, we can only fear the worst... Such a split of operations is the only viable option, as AF did with SB for NOU service via Japan (and Korea for a while). I'm 100% sure that this split of operations between AF and TN will happen one day. The only unknown thing is when it will happen.
 
zkncj
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting nicode (Reply 22):
With the spare aircraft, maybe they could open a new route ?

Highly unlikely, they couldn't even make PPT-SYD work!


I'd say its just time before, TN becomes outsourced to an contracted airline. For example the Cook Islands, pay NZ to Operate there SYD-RAR and LAX RAR services.
 
ivanpaneque
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:10 pm

I hope to fly for a long time are more precious

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Azure
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:19 pm

Speculations on TN getting used A350s from AF (or another carrier) are pretty wild IMHO.
Not only they ignore the financial schemes TN can get would be much more interesting if these aircraft are purchased new rather than used due to its overseas carrier status under French law, but they conveniently forget when A350s get onto the second hand market, TN's A340s will be around 30 years old.

In my views, the whole business case should be revised. TN needs to follow SB example and should turn into a regional carrier, e.g. codeshare with AF on LAX-CDG and concentrate on trans-pacific routes.

Certainly the A340s are not the most economical aircraft (even if I am a big fan of these quads). They add to the already high unit cost.

Now to answer the OP, TN got their A340s between Dec 2001 and June 2005. These aircraft can make it until the end of this decade.


Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Wouldn't TN have to go through legnthy ETOPS requirements?

Like AF on LAX-PPT (or NZ on AKL-PPT). Not that lengthy.
Rumors are Airbus is seeking for ETOPS 420 certification on the A350 XWB btw.



Quoting zkncj (Reply 25):
I'd say its just time before, TN becomes outsourced to an contracted airline. For example the Cook Islands, pay NZ to Operate there SYD-RAR and LAX RAR services.

French taxpayers money used to directly subsidize a foreign airline ? You'd have to be very creative to sort out a plan matching the legal requirements. Let alone the political turmoil it would result in. Good luck.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 17):
What equipment did they use before acquiring the A340

The A340's they have now are 300 Versions. But they once had a 200 Version.
 
Viscount724
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 15):
The crew is the same from PPT or they change at LAX?

It would never be legal for the same crew to operate PPT-LAX-CDG. That's over 21 hrs. eastbound and over 22 hrs. westbound.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 17):
How long have they been flying PPT-LAX-CDG?

LAX 1998, CDG 2002.

The also operated JFK-PPT nonstop for a couple of years, even more unprofitably than the rest of their routes.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 7):
TN will be granted Metropolitan France taxpayers subsidies to buy A330neo only when local government will blackmail Paris enough

  

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Their aircraft type is the least of their worries.

  

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
even more unprofitably than the rest of their routes

Which really is quite an achievement.

I doubt even AKL is breaking even for them, so the rest of the network must be drowning in red ink.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 30):

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Their aircraft type is the least of their worries.

  

Really? Sure TN is a basket case but with only 5 Aircraft and marginal routes bar LAX surely a much more efficient and smaller A332 would be far better for them now, if only they could get some somehow.

And i'm well aware that ETOPS played a role in their initial purchase of A343s.
 
zkncj
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 27):

French taxpayers money used to directly subsidize a foreign airline ? You'd have to be very creative to sort out a plan matching the legal requirements. Let alone the political turmoil it would result in. Good luck.

Nothing saying it has to be a foreign airline e.g AF could do a twice weekly PPT-AKL-PPT service
 
Azure
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 32):
Nothing saying it has to be a foreign airline e.g AF could do a twice weekly PPT-AKL-PPT service

AF has plans to withdraw from PPT, not to increase ops. The costs of a crew base in PPT are enormous. I'd love to see AF back on the routes the former UTA used to fly, but this is not going to happen anytime soon I'm afraid.

The best bet would be SB. It is partly privately-owned and better managed than TN. Merging the two entities to create a French carrier in the South Pacific should be evaluated. TN and SB combined networks would be among the densest in the region actually.
 
goldorak
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
The best bet would be SB. It is partly privately-owned and better managed than TN. Merging the two entities to create a French carrier in the South Pacific should be evaluated. TN and SB combined networks would be among the densest in the region actually.

Absolutely   
 
savethequads
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:52 pm

ATNs problem is the Euro and FPs remote location and much cheaper alternatives.

The cruel reality is nothing can make ATN profitable. Fuel price are too high even for the most fuel efficient planes.

ATNs biggest issue is Hawaii. You pay a third of the price for 80% of the island experience. I go to Hawaii yearly and I can take a family of 5 for $4,000+1500 for activities/meals. My wife and I spent about $5000 (trip/hotel)+$2000 meals/activities just for the 2 of us. Now... FP is much more beautiful than Hawaii but I can fly round trip on AS or Hawaiian for 450 a person. But ATN costs $2,100 p/p dollars for 1,300 more (nautical) miles? That's the Euro problem right there. Even if they used A330s and cut down the amount of employees the tickets would still be way more expensive than those to Hawaii because everything is more expensive in FP. Even if you shop at a regular store in FP the prices are extremely high for everyday items. Where as in Hawaii they are really no more expensive than the mainland.

However I will say, the 2 times I have flown on ATN/VT all flights were full or just about completely full in April.

My opinion is they need 3 A330-200s (like FIJI) (2 dedicated to LAX and one as a spare). They need to focus on LAX and drop regular service to CDG, NRT and AKL entirely. Let AF JAL and NZ do that work. They can operate more like a charter Airlines

ATNs AKL problem is the Cook Islands. Why go to France when you can stay in NZ? If you ask a Kiwi, Aitutaki is better than Bora Bora or Maupiti anyway. (I only asked one, but he claimed he was disappointed in FP)

During my month total in FP I did not hear very many Australian or NZ accents. The people were predominately American followed by French. I saw very few Asians the whole time, I was expecting to see a lot more. I guess Guam and Hawaii are a better deal for them too.

I think ATN will get A330-200s within the next 8 years. French Polynesia is amazing and people with money will always want to go there and there will always be demand. They will always lose money though as they try to balance keeping hotel rooms full and charging the proper amount for the ticket. Our next trip to FP will likely be on Hawaiians Saturday flight. $1100 p/p rt.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:29 pm

The A340-300 is not the most efficient airframe out there, but doesn't TN have fundamental problems with their business model that no aircraft - no matter how efficient - is likely to rectify?
 
zkncj
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting savethequads (Reply 35):

ATNs AKL problem is the Cook Islands. Why go to France when you can stay in NZ? If you ask a Kiwi, Aitutaki is better than Bora Bora or Maupiti anyway. (I only asked one, but he claimed he was disappointed in FP)

During my month total in FP I did not hear very many Australian or NZ accents. The people were predominately American followed by French. I saw very few Asians the whole time, I was expecting to see a lot more. I guess Guam and Hawaii are a better deal for them too

Tahti is so much more expensive than the Cook Islands, the Cook Islands have the added benefit that they used NZD so everything is in your home currency.
 
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mercure1
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting nicode (Reply 22):
When will they have a decent codeshare with AF (and not one weekly IIRC) ?

The only reason AF codeshares on TN 1x weekly is meet their service guarantee commitment to FP.

AF-TN not very interested otherwise.

The proposed JV would have covered the LAX-CDG, much to the benefit of AF/DL segment but was denied.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 24):
would apply for a simple code-share with AF operating solely CDG-LAX and TN operating solely LAX-PPT. Politics is only involved here, and we all know that when politics are involved, we can only fear the worst... Such a split of operations is the only viable option, as AF did with SB for NOU service via Japan (and Korea for a while).

Simple codeshare does not explain or manage the critical revenue split issue. Carriers need a formal JV.

AF-SB since 2000 have a had such formal joint-venture for their NOU-NRT-CDG. Matter of fact JV in 2013 was even extended to cover KLM AMS services.

Even under old days, AF-UT overseas agreement, the airlines had agreement far deeper than codeshare to allow for proper revenue management for enterprises between them.

Quoting Azure (Reply 33):
The best bet would be SB. It is partly privately-owned and better managed than TN. Merging the two entities to create a French carrier in the South Pacific should be evaluated. TN and SB combined networks would be among the densest in the region actually.

I don't see any chance. The legal and practical conditions are very different between FP and NC.

Geography wise Noumea and Papeete are 4,600km apart. That's like London and Jeddah.
Where would headquarters be? who would manage? how does each national government ensure their interest protected?

Second New Caledonia is essentially independent country, with 20-year transition planned to end in 2018. FP is still a French territory. The political interest between then are quite differing. Matter of fact the feeling in New Caledonia is to move away from French influence, not be drawn back in. FP on the other hand is still quite integrated from metropolitan France.

I simply do not see it. Current or former French overseas territory airlines like Air Calin, ATN, Air Caraibes, Air Austral, etc have very different situations and cannot be seen as combined.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
The also operated JFK-PPT nonstop for a couple of years, even more unprofitably than the rest of their routes.

I selfishly wish they still flew JFK-PPT. Great airline!
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
A342
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 38):
Geography wise Noumea and Papeete are 4,600km apart. That's like London and Jeddah.
Where would headquarters be? who would manage? how does each national government ensure their interest protected?

Simple, base it in Wallis et Futuna.  
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Azure
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RE: When Will Air Tahiti Nui Replace Their A343's?

Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 38):
I don't see any chance. The legal and practical conditions are very different between FP and NC.

Geography wise Noumea and Papeete are 4,600km apart. That's like London and Jeddah.
Where would headquarters be? who would manage? how does each national government ensure their interest protected?

Second New Caledonia is essentially independent country, with 20-year transition planned to end in 2018. FP is still a French territory. The political interest between then are quite differing. Matter of fact the feeling in New Caledonia is to move away from French influence, not be drawn back in. FP on the other hand is still quite integrated from metropolitan France.

I simply do not see it. Current or former French overseas territory airlines like Air Calin, ATN, Air Caraibes, Air Austral, etc have very different situations and cannot be seen as combined.

Re: a TN/SB merger
Distance should not be an issue here. EY manages an alliance between airlines that are far more than 4,600 kms apart. Corporations around the world work on a daily basis with branches located on the six continents. What's the deal here ?!

Of course politics would play against a TN/SB merger.
But economically it can only make sense. What kind of future do these small unaligned, regional, loss-making airlines have? Size is a critical issue, don't you think ? How about looking for costs synergies and economies of scale ?

You mentioned other overseas players like Air Caraibes and Air Austral. Both are profitable now, but they cannot be compared with TN or SB : they benefit from massive traffic flows from their respective base to mainland France and vv, which is not the case of TN or SB, needless to say.

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