Cathay Pacific Reduces A330 Premium Economy

LondonCity · Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:29 am

Interesting development in the Asia-Pacific region. Premium economy is a relatively new development at Cathay Pacific, yet the airline has now decided to cut back on the number of seats it offers.

So far, according to the report in the SMH, it will affect only those A330s which ply between Hong Kong and Cathay's Australian cities.

I don't believe it suggests that premium economy is a failure within Asia because the region's most successful carrier, Singapore Airlines, has already announced it will launch this product in 2015.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...cific-to-slim-down-premium-economy

KarelXWB · Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:46 am

Seven seats will be removed, they are just optimizing the Hong Kong - Australia routes. Premium Economy is fairly new, give them some time to figure out the best amount of seats for each route.

Quote:
The reconfiguration of 13 aircraft will remove seven of the 28 premium economy seats and replace them with 16 additional economy class seats for a total increase of nine seats per aircraft.

“The decision to deploy the reconfigured aircraft to and from Australia is mainly due to high demand for economy class seats on these routes,” a Cathay spokeswoman said.
“We believe the configuration change will better suit the current demand in the Australian market.”

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...economy-seats-20140804-1004ru.html

[Edited 2014-08-08 02:47:22]

RyanairGuru · Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:16 am

Hong Kong-Australia Y+ sales have been disappointing for CX, but remember that QF have also said that Y+ is a poor performer on Australia-Asia (they offered it on 747 and A380 services to SIN and HKG).

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
Singapore Airlines, has already announced it will launch this product in 2015.

It's going to be very, very interesting to see how they do with Y+ to Australia. The cabin sells well to Europe, and that transfer traffic might be enough to prop up SQ on Australia-SIN, but I doubt they will do any better in the local O&D market. Do we know how many Y+ seats SQ are going to put on the A330 fleet yet? That will be a real guide to how they perceive the market.

fiscal · Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:49 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 2):
QF have also said that Y+ is a poor performer on Australia-Asia

Pricing on QF Y+ has never been attractive and so take up was low, however, I was taken to understand that Y+ was being used as an upgrade incentive anyway, and so low revenue sales was not really a problem?

qfvhoqa · Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:40 am

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
So far, according to the report in the SMH, it will affect only those A330s which ply between Hong Kong and Cathay's Australian cities.

CX will also remove Y+ all together from A330s that are used to the Middle East and India. These aircraft will revert to 2-class layout.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 2):
Do we know how many Y+ seats SQ are going to put on the A330 fleet yet?

I believe SQ will not fit Y+ to regional aircraft, so the A330 will not get it. This also means that their routes to Australia will only have Y+ if they are operated by long haul frames.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 3):
Pricing on QF Y+ has never been attractive and so take up was low,

QF's Y+ performance is kind of self fulfilling. It is positioned as J- and priced accordingly, meaning on shorter routes pax don't see much value. J- works better on long haul.

seahawk · Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:51 am

Too close to J in price. The European Airlines have a better concept imho.

LondonCity · Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting fiscal (Reply 3):
Pricing on QF Y+ has never been attractive and so take up was low, however, I was taken to understand that Y+ was being used as an upgrade incentive anyway, and so low revenue sales was not really a problem?

It seems that some airlines will fill their Y+ cabins with upgrades or special prices. Much depends on the routing and how busy the flight will be. As far as BA is concerned, it tempts passengers to upgrade from Y to Y+ with special rates. Of course this will depend on the routing and the flight loading.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 4):
CX will also remove Y+ all together from A330s that are used to the Middle East and India. These aircraft will revert to 2-class layout.

That's interesting to know. The Middle East market is not used to Y+ because, after all, none of the big carriers currently offers Y+. I believe it's only a matter of time before one Gulf airline launches Y+ and then the others in the area will follow.

ClassicLover · Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
Interesting development in the Asia-Pacific region. Premium economy is a relatively new development at Cathay Pacific, yet the airline has now decided to cut back on the number of seats it offers.

Definitely happening quite quickly. I have a flight on 5 January SYD-HKG on Cathay and the seat map has already changed from 4 rows of Premium Economy to 3. Doesn't bother me, it should be even more private now

davidho1985 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:01 pm

Because their Y+ product is really poor for intra-Asia routes.
Basically same product as Y apart from larger legroom and priority boarding.
That's all.

ClassicLover · Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 8):
Because their Y+ product is really poor for intra-Asia routes.
Basically same product as Y apart from larger legroom and priority boarding.
That's all.

Plus a Business Class meal which is always worth it, and 25kg baggage allowance instead of 20kg. Not to mention the amenity kit. Plus if you get a front row seat there is tons and tons of legroom!

musapapaya · Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:40 pm

On LH though, premium economy gives you 2 x 23kg baggage allowance and lounge access, which CX does not offer. These offered by LH sounds like it is worth the premium you pay. I look forward to flying with them on their 748s soon.

MIflyer12 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting LondonCity (Thread starter):
I don't believe it suggests that premium economy is a failure within Asia because the region's most successful carrier, Singapore Airlines, has already announced it will launch this product in 2015.

You have confidence this is the right product for the market(s) even though, if I'm following this correctly, SQ hasn't yet sold any premium economy seats at any price?

RyanairGuru · Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting fiscal (Reply 3):
I was taken to understand that Y was being used as an upgrade incentive anyway

It sells well with revenue passengers on long-haul routes to Europe and the USA, but on regional flights it is a non-seller. In the past QF could fill Y+ to SIN (and HKG) with LHR passengers, and any O&D passengers were just some icing on the cake, but since LHR moved to DXB sales on regional routes have been very soft.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 4):
This also means that their routes to Australia will only have Y if they are operated by long haul frames

Right, so just SYD and MEL.

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 4):
QF's Y performance is kind of self fulfilling. It is positioned as J- and priced accordingly

Fair enough. That said, I still believe that QF had the best approach to introducing Y+: take your short haul business class and shove it on longhaul. Good enough to bare the word "premium", without competing properly with your long haul business class.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 5):
he European Airlines have a better concept imho

Definitely not. Compared to QF and NZ they are offering a really poor product. If they are offering economy plus then QF and NZ are offering business minus. When comparing QF and BA in Y on SYD-LHR the fares are normally pretty similar. I, honestly, cannot think of a single reason to choose BA over QF if the price is the same (that said, the same applies in Y, it is J where things become more competitive).

flyenthu · Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:12 pm

I think for airlines like CX and SQ, that have pretty good Y product, it doesn't make a big difference if you are traveling Y or premium Y. It is not a huge upgrade, but you are paying quite a bit more. I don't think it will work for SQ either.

[Edited 2014-08-08 15:12:39]

9w748capt · Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 13):

I think for airlines like CX and SQ, that have pretty good Y product, it doesn't make a big difference if you are traveling Y or premium Y. It is not a huge upgrade, but you are paying quite a bit more. I don't think it will work for SQ either.

So true. CX's Y has to be one of the best out there. While their Y+ looks comfy, not sure I'd pay an extra $1000 for it. I do wonder how it's selling on HKG-US/Canada routes? Seems to be reasonably priced.

I do wish CX had Y+ on routes like HKG-DPS, however. Yes it's a leisure market but if there are people paying (probably miles burners) for J, then surely higher end leisure pax would pay for Y+ on a 4+ hour flight.

hz747300 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:17 pm

I agree, the pricing for Y+ is not that great for what you actually receive in difference, and it's hard to get comfortable in the seats to sleep. On the Australia route, I would typically be upgraded anyways to Y+.

seahawk · Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 12):
Definitely not. Compared to QF and NZ they are offering a really poor product. If they are offering economy plus then QF and NZ are offering business minus. When comparing QF and BA in Y on SYD-LHR the fares are normally pretty similar. I, honestly, cannot think of a single reason to choose BA over QF if the price is the same (that said, the same applies in Y, it is J where things become more competitive).

In my experience European carriers usually ask for 30-80% more for Y+ compared to Y, while Asian carriers are closer to 60-110% more. Therefore the price is rarely the same and it seems like the European style Y+ is more appealing to customers.

davidho1985 · Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 9):
Plus a Business Class meal which is always worth it, and 25kg baggage allowance instead of 20kg. Not to mention the amenity kit. Plus if you get a front row seat there is tons and tons of legroom!

So sad to tell you that on inter-Asia flights,
Your meal is completely identical to Y's meal and you won't get any amenity kit onboard such flights.

flythere · Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:11 pm

Y+ clearly is the territory for long-haul markets. The incentive for people to pay extra for Y+ is much less so in shorter flights as people would think they can 'endure' the discomfort for a couple of hours. Same concept can be illustrated by the fact that there are so few regional routes providing First Class services as people think J class is good enough for that few hours.

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 14):
I do wonder how it's selling on HKG-US/Canada routes?

According to different sources, the cabin is filling quite well and the yield looks pretty promising.

BestWestern · Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:04 pm

The original article mentioned that India passengers aren't willing to pay for Y plus as the flights are rather short.

It also said that traffic to the gulf was polarised around either low yield feeder traffic of high yield business traffic - and premium economy was unattractive to both.

With no.changes to cabins on the 777 fleet, we can assume that the cabin is right sized.

AirNiugini · Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:01 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 12):
It sells well with revenue passengers on long-haul routes to Europe and the USA, but on regional flights it is a non-seller. In the past QF could fill Y+ to SIN (and HKG) with LHR passengers, and any O&D passengers were just some icing on the cake, but since LHR moved to DXB sales on regional routes have been very soft.

Is NRT classed as regional long haul for QF? It would be interesting to see how QF's Y+ performs at NRT. I think I have seen, from other posts on this site that NRT is quite a high yield operation.

BreninTW · Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 9):
Plus a Business Class meal

Interestingly enough, I have flown Y+ a few times this year with CX, and also been in J a few times -- all on the same routes.

HKG-TPE there is no "Y+" at all -- sure the cabin is there, but it's not sold as Y+. If you book the lower Y+ fare, you get a Y class ticket TPE-HKG. If you book the higher Y+ fare, you get a J ticket TPE-HKG. The service in the back is Y as is the meal (which on TPE-HKG is generally not appealing).

It's the long-haul segments that make Y+ appealing. I typically fly TPE-HKG-JNB, and after my first Y+ flight this year I was absolutely sold on the concept. The meal is not quite J, but I honestly found it better than the meals I've been served in my subsequent J legs (and how often do you get lamb in an airline meal?) The leg room is more than adequate and the recline makes it a comfortable flight for me.

On my JNB-HKG legs, the Y+ cabin has been packed, even when the Y cabin has had seats available (one flight, I would have put the Y cabin at about 60% full, Y+ had three available seats).

Carfield · Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:05 am

Just want to clarify - CX offers Premium economy fares on Hong Kong to Taipei market. I have bought a couple since its regional launch!

But regional Premium Economy CX basically gives you priority check-in, more baggage allowance, and a better seat. The meals on regional Premium economy are the same as regular economy, and many F/As do not even bother to close the curtains between PE and EY during service.

Carfield

BreninTW · Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
Just want to clarify - CX offers Premium economy fares on Hong Kong to Taipei market. I have bought a couple since its regional launch!

But regional Premium Economy CX basically gives you priority check-in, more baggage allowance, and a better seat. The meals on regional Premium economy are the same as regular economy, and many F/As do not even bother to close the curtains between PE and EY during service.

However, when you click through, you get the message that "Y+ is not available on this segment and you have been offered an appropriate alternative" which is a Y fare -- I have received this notification on each of the six TPE-HKG flights I've tried to book Y+ so far this year, one time I was given a Y fare, twice I've been given a J fare/seat (return in each case). In all three cases, there have been plenty of Y+ seats available at the time of booking, so there is no reason for CX to offer me a J seat if I have actually bought a Y+ ticket. In all cases, I've booked the TPE-HKG legs of my flights on the A330. I'm not sure how it works for flights operated by 777 or 747 equipment.

shengzhurou · Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:08 am

i agree on most people saying that the current new Y class is one of the best out there and i have flew it many times on 14+ hrs of flight, but on those long flights PEY is really worth to pay for, i am only 170cm but i hate to have a knee pain after a long flight and touching another person's shoulder for such a long flight.
let me get back to the A330 on cx, they used most on flights 9hours ish.. or less most people really don't need PEY , what cx offers on the Y cabin is good enough already, that's why they are reducing PEY, and most passengers won't paid for extra, they always book a ticket at the lowest non-refundable ticket price. CX also has a very good IFE on board.

fiscal · Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 24):
and most passengers won't paid for extra,

You are correct and wrong at the same time

True, people will not pay excessive fares, but they will pay a fair price. Most suppliers of Y+ do not price their Y+ fairly because they fear it will cause business clients to abandon their J product and therefore a subsequent loss of revenue. This may well be true, but it sad that leisure passengers with the ability to pay a fair price are caught in the middle of the airlines need to maximize revenue from corporate clients and the need to fill an economy section with budget minded passengers who are super price conscious.

The future of Y+ is therefore limited as a revenue raiser. Mind you there are still a few airlines out there that do try to make the Y product a little more comfortable, like QR and MH (on their older aircraft), and there may be others that give you a seat pitch greater then 31in and width greater than 17in, but I think they are few and far between.