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b727fan
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4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Hi Folks,
Just wondering how come the 4 engine Avro Jets are still popular in Europe, and phased out in US? It was nice flying them on NW and UA back home a while back. I recently had a couple of hops within Europe on Swiss and Brussels Airlines. Just wondering how come they are still viable in EU and not in the US. How much longer will we see them around?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.  
 
FlyHossD
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:39 pm

There wasn't a whole lot of BAe146 flying that could be done under the scope clauses at the time. Now, they're not cost effective and they weren't particularly reliable, either (IMHO).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
N766UA
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:44 pm

They're not particularly efficient jets, given that they do with 4 engines what is normally done with 2. They're also niche, because they're not really regional jets when it comes to seating capacity. They're also old.

I flew one for the first time this spring over in Europe, and frankly I wasn't particularly impressed. Noisy, slow climber, and uncomfortable. We must have used a pretty low power setting, because I thought the Avros were supposed to be good on short runways, but our takeoff roll was pretty significant.
 
Someone83
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting b727fan (Thread starter):
Hi Folks,
Just wondering how come the 4 engine Avro Jets are still popular in Europe, and phased out in US?

They are not popular anymore, and most are just waiting to be phased out. Swiss and Malmø Aviation are just waiting for their CSeries. Blue1 and Lufthansa parked theirs a while ago, and then it is just CityJet and Brussels among the major operators, but they are financially struggling
 
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mayor
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 1):
Now, they're not cost effective and they weren't particularly reliable, either (IMHO).

Bring Another Engine
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Andy33
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:05 pm

BA replaced theirs with E170s and E190s, Flybe with Q400s and E190s, Aegean with A320s, to name three more European airlines who had BAe146/Avro RJs and no longer do.
 
N766UA
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
Bring Another Engine

Haha I hadn't heard that one; nice.
 
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enilria
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:40 pm

Not long. Fuel burn is horrible and engine maintenance is almost as big a problem.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:44 pm

I can't remember what airline (maybe PSA?), but I seem to recall that they.were still using the BAe146 back in the 90's and were flying them out of couple of airports in CA. Reason: They were the only aircraft (or cost feasible AC) that met the noise requirements of those airports.
 
Someone83
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting b727fan (Thread starter):
Hi Folks,
Just wondering how come the 4 engine Avro Jets are still popular in Europe, and phased out in US?

One more thing, from what I remember the US operators where flying the older Bae-146, while the remaining European operators mainly use the newer Avros
 
LH707330
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
Bring Another Engine

One engine fails, you have four, but you'd need six to climb properly....
 
BAeRJ100
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
I flew one for the first time this spring over in Europe, and frankly I wasn't particularly impressed. Noisy, slow climber, and uncomfortable. We must have used a pretty low power setting, because I thought the Avros were supposed to be good on short runways, but our takeoff roll was pretty significant.


I'm only cabin crew on the 146/Avro RJ so I'm not that big on the technical side of things, but I generally find flying out of 'normal' airports to be boring, comparable to any other jet. It's the smaller fields that get exciting, sitting on what feels like full power for a while before the breaks are released, airframe shaking from the engines, passengers looking nervous   Whenever I'm on a ferry flight I'm always in awe at how quickly they manage to rotate these things.

Shame to hear you weren't a big fan - I personally prefer the 146 over the Avros, they're lovely old birds with a lot of character and individual quirks IMO. The Avros feel too 'new' and sterile in comparison.

[Edited 2014-08-08 10:04:39]
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting someone83 (Reply 9):
One more thing, from what I remember the US operators where flying the older Bae-146, while the remaining European operators mainly use the newer Avros

I can't speak for anybody else, but Mesaba (NW Airlink) had the Avro RJ70.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Someone83
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 12):

I can't speak for anybody else, but Mesaba (NW Airlink) had the Avro RJ70.

RJ-70 = the 737-600/Airbus A318 of the Avro series
 
azjubilee
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 12):
I can't speak for anybody else, but Mesaba (NW Airlink) had the Avro RJ70.

Mesaba operated the RJ85, but had seating for 69.
 
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enilria
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 14):
Mesaba operated the RJ85, but had seating for 69.

Scope restriction.
 
steex
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:22 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 12):
I can't speak for anybody else, but Mesaba (NW Airlink) had the Avro RJ70.

Mesaba actually had the Avro RJ85, not the RJ70. They were configured with only 69 seats (16F/53Y) in order to fall within scope. This made them great from a pax perspective as they had the best seat width and pitch in the domestic NW fleet, but also meant they were pretty inefficient from a number crunching perspective as fuel prices escalated.

In the end, the greater demand for the type from European carriers priced them above the appetite of US operators as leases expired. As relatively few routes demanded their STOL capabilities, NW had little difficulty replacing Avro routes with a mix of CRJ and DC-9 service.
 
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:49 pm

Brussels Airlines and Swiss are still flying them into BSL, and as I do gardening under the departure path... I've flown the RJ100 on a holiday charter (ZRH - Chios, Greece). I think we flew pretty low all the time, as we had a very good view of Venice when overflying northern Italy.

On the flight from Chios via SKI to ZRH, first the slide was activated somehow, leading to the slide being stowed and the exit inoperable. So it flew with the passengers to SKI, returned to us at Chios, and then we flew to ZRH.

Well, before we flew the pilots had tankered too much fuel, which they had to burn while sitting on the ramp... but we had a very gay atmosphere during the wait. The passengers could fetch drinks and snacks whenever they wanted, the FAs just told us to help ourselves. And so we had lots of time to chat with the crew... 


No, I thought that its engines would be of remarkable reliability, as they are also used in the Chinook helicopters AFAIK. And as a passenger, I didn't experience anything negative.


David
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azjubilee
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
No, I thought that its engines would be of remarkable reliability, as they are also used in the Chinook helicopters AFAIK. And as a passenger, I didn't experience anything negative.

Yes, the engine reliability has turned into a famous aviation joke. IN reality the RJ series had many improvements, not only with the engines, to actually lay those jokes to rest. Alas... they still continue but are often entertaining, because the BAe146/AvroRJ are such unique planes, with an interesting history.
 
penguins
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:04 pm

I fly on LX ARJs to VCE every year and love it. I like to think its the closest thing to a 707 we have these days.
 
drgmobile
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 16):
Mesaba actually had the Avro RJ85, not the RJ70. They were configured with only 69 seats (16F/53Y) in order to fall within scope. This made them great from a pax perspective as they had the best seat width and pitch in the domestic NW fleet, but also meant they were pretty inefficient from a number crunching perspective as fuel prices escalated.

Similar situation to Jazz, which has an airframe that is essentially a CRJ-900 but is certified for just 75 passengers and thus is called a "CRJ-705." Most mistakenly believe it is a CRJ-700.
 
tupolev141
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
I think we flew pretty low all the time, as we had a very good view of Venice when overflying northern Italy.

They usually flew around FL270. Some of the ones still flying now (I believe all of the SN machines) were retrofitted to be RVSM able and can now be found flying around F300.

As far as I know, some operators had a hard time looking for a replacement as they have quite the range. An AVRO RJ85 can fly 1700NM with 100 passengers, for comparison a B717-200 could only manage 1350NM.

[Edited 2014-08-08 11:13:08]
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting BAeRJ100 (Reply 11):
I'm only cabin crew on the 146/Avro RJ so I'm not that big on the technical side of things, but I generally find flying out of 'normal' airports to be boring, comparable to any other jet. It's the smaller fields that get exciting, sitting on what feels like full power for a while before the breaks are released, airframe shaking from the engines, passengers looking nervous   Whenever I'm on a ferry flight I'm always in awe at how quickly they manage to rotate these things.

Shame to hear you weren't a big fan - I personally prefer the 146 over the Avros, they're lovely old birds with a lot of character and individual quirks IMO. The Avros feel too 'new' and sterile in comparison.

I've never flown on one, but I hope I get the opportunity some time. I've read somewhere that they have a very distinctive "howl" sound upon flaps retraction?

One reason I believe they're still in use in the EU is because of London City airport. They're just about the only jet that can fly in and out of there with the exception of the steep approach/short field version of the Airbus A318.
 
Someone83
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 22):
One reason I believe they're still in use in the EU is because of London City airport. They're just about the only jet that can fly in and out of there with the exception of the steep approach/short field version of the Airbus A318.

The Embraet E-jets operated into LCY as well, and soon the CSeries.

BA cityflyer the biggest player at LCY has fleet of only E-jet (E170 and E190)
 
Andy33
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 22):
One reason I believe they're still in use in the EU is because of London City airport. They're just about the only jet that can fly in and out of there with the exception of the steep approach/short field version of the Airbus A318.

No longer the case, E170 and E190 are certified for LCY. Indeed BA have replaced their entire LCY-based Avro fleet with a mixture of E170s and E190s. AZ, LH and Luxair have all operated E190s into LCY as well.
 
BAeRJ100
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 22):
I've never flown on one, but I hope I get the opportunity some time. I've read somewhere that they have a very distinctive "howl" sound upon flaps retraction?

This might be strange, maybe not, but it's my favourite plane-related noise (if there's such a category). There's a heap of takeoff vids on YouTube that you can hear the flap howl. It does it for both retraction and extension. There's a ton of takeoff vids on YouTube that feature it.

Here's a good one (skip to around 2:25)

Hope you get the chance to fly on one!

(sorry for the off topicness, folks)

[Edited 2014-08-08 11:58:30]
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting someone83 (Reply 23):
The Embraet E-jets operated into LCY as well, and soon the CSeries.

BA cityflyer the biggest player at LCY has fleet of only E-jet (E170 and E190)
Quoting someone83 (Reply 23):
No longer the case, E170 and E190 are certified for LCY. Indeed BA have replaced their entire LCY-based Avro fleet with a mixture of E170s and E190s. AZ, LH and Luxair have all operated E190s into LCY as well.

Totally forgot about those E-jets.   I wonder if the Bombardier CS100 will be certified too..

Quoting BAeRJ100 (Reply 25):
This might be strange, maybe not, but it's my favourite plane-related noise (if there's such a category). There's a heap of takeoff vids on YouTube that you can hear the flap howl. It does it for both retraction and extension. There's a ton of takeoff vids on YouTube that feature it.

Here's a good one (skip to around 2:25)

Hope you get the chance to fly on one!

Thanks! I completely understand why that's your favorite plane noise.  
 
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 14):
Mesaba operated the RJ85, but had seating for 69.

Oops my bad. Of course you're right. I just remembered the number wrong  
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
MCOflyer
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 8):

It was indeed PSA. One of them got hijacked and flown into the ground by disgruntled ex employee.

PSA_Flight_1771" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_1771

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Toni_
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:25 pm

You know you're getting old when the jets you grew with are getting outdated.   

The Discovery chan used to have this show called "Flight Deck" back in the 90's, and did an episode on the 146 too: http://youtu.be/iweZkX_mwR0

Sad to see these 'Jumbolinos' disappear.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 8):
I can't remember what airline (maybe PSA?), but I seem to recall that they.were still using the BAe146 back in the 90's and were flying them out of couple of airports in CA. Reason: They were the only aircraft (or cost feasible AC) that met the noise requirements of those airports.

You are correct that PSA (and Air California) few Bae146s but it wasn't just for noise. The 737-200 could meet the SNA noise requirements. At the time, they were very efficient airplanes.

PSA was however able to start the CCR-LAX route, in which only the BAE was really able to operate from CCR.
 
sandyb123
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting BAeRJ100 (Reply 25):
Here's a good one (skip to around 2:25)

Used to fly on the old BA Avro whisper jets down to LCY from EDI all the time. Remember that noise well.

For reasons I don't remember there sometimes was a longer than normal flap down departure from LCY which would great a LOT of noise as airspeed increased.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
I think we flew pretty low all the time

They do fly low. Typically we'd fly back up the Uk at ≈ 25,000 ft which would give a good view all the way on a clear night. Today it's more like 35,000 ft + on the E190 / A320.

One of the features I also remember was the slowly increasing 'altitude wobble' were the plane would start with a very slight undulation which would gradually increase into a notable and vomit-inducing vertical yaw. Like riding a ship on a swelling sea. Had that a good few times on the Avro.

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zrs70
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:41 pm

I loved flying the 146 jets. I had chances on Air Wisconsin, Aspen Air, and Business Express. Compared to the props of the era, the 146's were extraordinary!!!
21 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2021
 
Someone83
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:42 pm

I liked the approach, as it foten felt like it really did a nose dive while the tail speed brake was having full effect
 
Doona
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:56 pm

I remember flying a United Express BAe 146-300 back in the early 00's, ORD-LNK. Air Wisconsin, I believe. Full flight. All the other times I've taken that flight since it has been a CRJ-200 operated by Skywest, after Air Wisconsin switched to operating for US Airways Express. I still remember that flight, the F/As were in a good mood, rolling out quite a few cliche jokes: "The cabin lights will be dimmed for take-off and landing to improve the looks of your cabin crew," and after the rather hard landing: "Please remain seated while Captain Kangaroo bounces us to a complete stop at the gate and has switched off the fasten seatbelt sign." Gave me a good laugh after a Kafka-esque journey from CPH, flying CPH-MXP-CDG-CVG-ORD-LNK in less than 24 hours (Back then my dad picked up the tab and would conjour up very cheap, rather can convenient, tickets). I think I remember the captain making special mention of the fact that the A/C had four engines, and I was thinking that it was ironic that the smallest aircraft of five flown that day was also the one with the most engines.

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ikramerica
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:12 pm

The reason they didn't stay around through the 90s: Unions, unions, unions. That's the answer. Pilots insist they be flown under mainline, but airlines didn't want that. E190/195, CRJ900, same thing.
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:58 pm

Used to a joke around at Northwest Airlines. The RJ-85 were powered by four APUs.
They were quiet and had good short field capabilities.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Wingtips56
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 30):
You are correct that PSA (and Air California) few Bae146s but it wasn't just for noise. The 737-200 could meet the SNA noise requirements. At the time, they were very efficient airplanes.

AirCal and PSA did get them primarily for SNA (BAe-146-200) because they were quiet. That was at the time that the Airport had to let in new entrants, but to keep under a stringent cap on the number of operations, slots were taken from the incumbent carriers AirCal and Hughes Airwest and given to PSA, AA and others. AirCal was allotted a declining number of "noisy" slots for the 737-100s/200s, along with the DC9-80 (though they were replaced with the quieter 737-300), so the BAe-146 allowed for additional slots. As a quiet airplane, they were sometimes allowed to land at SNA after curfew, when late. (SNA would turn off the lights for a late arriving 737-100/200.) At 85 seats, they carried half the load of the D98, but at least some flights could be maintained. They did fly other routes, like SMF-LAX as a right-sized aircraft.

AA held on to the six OC 146s for a while after the merger, even reconfiguring them for First Class (giggle), at IIRC F8Y63. Note they were AA Mainline, not Eagle.

At OC, we did often say BAe - Bring Another Engine, with others (having been in the Industry longer) would say "If it's a BAC, you better walk.) Most of the door hinges broke, and one of them, N142AC, had some braking condition that required a minimum of a 20 minute cool down for hot brakes after landing, which caused problems trying to maintain our allotted 10-minute turnaround times. The early winter morning cloud of fog rising from the floor vents and the pre-sunrise flaming hot-starts --at eye level-- freaked-out the passengers. Post-AA, most if not all six ended up with Malmø. Good riddance! OC got them new in 1985-86, so they would be old birds by now.

USAir hung on to the PSA birds for a while, but I don't know where they went.

Others in the U.S. briefly operated them, like failures Tristar and Royal West (BAe-146-100), plus Air Wisconsin and Aspen (later both ZW and AP operated them for UAX). Later the NW and UA regionals ended up with a bunch, as the small capacity didn't make money at mainline union pay scales.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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Viscount724
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
I flew one for the first time this spring over in Europe, and frankly I wasn't particularly impressed. Noisy, slow climber, and uncomfortable.

You probably weren't on LX or SN. They use very spacious 5-abreast seating. Those with 6-abreast seating like CityJet are horrible, but at 5-abreast the Avro/BAE146 is probably the best thing flying in Europe. And when LX installed new Recaro seats (same seats as on their A320 family aircraft) a few years ago it made the Avros even better as they didn't reduce the seat pitch but the new lightweight seats add about 2 inches of effective legroom so it made seating much more spacious. The LX Avros have always been one of my favorite aircraft in Europe. And I've never found them noisy, and why should passengers care about the rate of climb?

The problem is their excessive fuel consumption. LX can't wait to get rid of them to reduce their fuel bill about 25% but they'll probably be stuck with them longer than expected due to the problems with the CSeries and likely late deliveries.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
We must have used a pretty low power setting, because I thought the Avros were supposed to be good on short runways, but our takeoff roll was pretty significant.

Try taking off from LCY. As you say, airlines use flexible thrust depending on runway length on all aircraft typs. I've flown GVA-LCY-GVA a few times on LX and the takeoff run with an identical passenger load is much longer departing GVA (runway almost 13,000 ft) than from the 4.950 ft. LCY runway where they also have to climb steeply after takeoff. If memory correct, from LCY they run up the engines to full power before releasing the brakes. Reducing power when you have runway to spare reduces maintenance costs.
 
Jetfixr757
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:59 am

I used to work on one for an airline back in the late '80's, British Caribbean Airlines, they had 1 airplane a -200 used to run
to Tortola from Miami M W F would do a charter on the weekends here and there. For the most part nice little airplane,
it loved the Lycoming engines, nothing more than a Chinook engine with a fan on the compressor. The jet we had spent a lot
of time sitting around before we started operations, then the reps showed up and told the story about the history of the
airplane. Pretty reliable frame and APU.
Jet
 
71Zulu
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:21 am

They are also plenty tough...

http://youtu.be/4c0eaofrdTo
 
JAAlbert
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 8):
I can't remember what airline (maybe PSA?),

PSA did indeed have the BAE 146 back in the day. I flew on one back in 1986 on a memorable flight between LAX and SFO.
We flew up the coast in the midst of a pacific storm and the plane was bounced around the sky like a carnival ride.
The flight was filled with Japanese school girls on vacation who screamed with every bump. It was kinda hilarious.
As for the plane, I remember thinking how much fun it was - small cabin, wings above the cabin with those little jet engines. I enjoyed the plane a great deal.
 
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mayor
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:46 am

As I recall, Atlantic Coast Airlines and Business Express both flew 146s as regionals for DL in the late 80s and 90s.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Viscount724
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 41):
Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 8):
I can't remember what airline (maybe PSA?),

PSA did indeed have the BAE 146 back in the day. I flew on one back in 1986 on a memorable flight between LAX and SFO.

One of their BAE 146s was lost in this unfortunate event in December 1987 en route from LAX to SFO, killing all 43 persons aboard.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19871207-0

Excerpt:

A recently discharged US Air employee boarded the flight after bypassing security. He carried a borrowed 44 caliber pistol. His former supervisor was on board the flight.

At 16:13, the pilot reported to Oakland ARTCC that he had an emergency and that gunshots had been fired in the airplane. Within 25 seconds, Oakland Center controllers observed that PSA1771 had begun a rapid descent from which it did not recover. Witnesses on the ground said the airplane was intact and there was no evidence of fire before the airplane struck the ground in a steep nose-down attitude. The CVR tape revealed the sounds of a scuffle and several shots which were apparently fired in or near the cockpit. The pistol was found in the wreckage with 6 expended rounds. FAA rules permitted airline employees to bypass security checkpoints.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:13 am

In the end, the BAe 146/Avro RJ85 existed for one reason: the safety margin these planes offered when flying in and out of LCY with its relatively short runway. But once the Embraer 170/175 and Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 became available, that pretty much replaced the BAe 146/RJ 85 at many regional airlines.
 
AirCalSNA
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:14 am

I think that PSA also used them during the short time that Concord (Contra Costa County) had airline service.

If I recall from my only flight on this type, the fuselage had a strange cross-sectional dimension so that the window seats were, compared to other types, rather far away from the windows.
 
penguins
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 45):
If I recall from my only flight on this type, the fuselage had a strange cross-sectional dimension so that the window seats were, compared to other types, rather far away from the windows.

Yes, they had 2-3 seating, even though 3-3 seating was possible.
 
bunumuring
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:10 am

Quoting BAeRJ100 (Reply 11):
I'm only cabin crew on the 146/Avro RJ so I'm not that big on the technical side of things, but I generally find flying out of 'normal' airports to be boring, comparable to any other jet. It's the smaller fields that get exciting, sitting on what feels like full power for a while before the breaks are released, airframe shaking from the engines, passengers looking nervous   Whenever I'm on a ferry flight I'm always in awe at how quickly they manage to rotate these things.

Mate, you instantly had my respect when you stated that you were cabin crew on the 146/RJ...
I love the plane, absolutely adore it. Flown on it with every possible Aussie operator except Cobham and the freight lines. My fav flights were around the Kimberley on Ansett WA back in the day...
And all flights were as a paying passenger.
Mate, good luck with the flights on it. I'm glad that an enthusiast like you is 'working them' and appreciating it.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
Burkhard
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:28 am

A reason not mentioned is that BAe was very active to find second homes for aircraft that have been returned, so airlines could set up regional jet operations easily.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: 4 Holer Regional Jets Why In EU But Not US?

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:43 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 46):
Yes, they had 2-3 seating, even though 3-3 seating was possible.

PSA started out with 3-3 and 100 seats as BAe had advertised. They went with standard seats that were a bit tall....people in the window seats had to lean into the next person's air space. They later decided to go with new seats and to go down to 2-3, and to 85 seats. They had a really cute commercial showing the plane landing and doing a quick turn into park. The door opened and seats started being thrown out.

AirCal followed as the second local 146 carrier and started with that lesson at 2-3 and 85 seats. BAe actually did a world tour sales promotion with the 146 in OC livery prior to turning it over to OC. I have a paper copy of an ad somewhere in my mess. G-... registration on it.

Cheers! (AirCalSMF -> LAS ->SMF)
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC

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