Air India Can't Sell Its Last Three 777-200LRs

BiggerJetsPlz · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:01 pm

http://www.financialexpress.com/news...-now-offers-them-for-lease/1270654

This article is almost a month old, but I just came across it, and saw no mention of it on here. It looks like AI failed to get any offers on their last three 777-200LRs (which they put up for sale in April 2014, after successfully selling the first five last year to EY), so now they're trying to lease them out. I have a feeling this won't work either, especially considering that one of them is essentially scrapped (VT-ALH, the newest one).

All three frames are barely 5 years old.

VT-ALF has been flying short hops recently.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VTALF

VT-ALG hasn't flown in over 4 months
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VTALG

VT-ALH hasn't flown in over 2 years and probably won't ever fly again: http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...-maharashtra-shivajis-airport.html

Do you think these planes will ever find customers? Do you think VT-ALH will even ever fly again?

[Edited 2014-08-12 16:14:37]

Thomaas · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:08 pm

I'm guessing current operators would be the best candidates. I think these frames would be a prime opportunity for Air Canada to add some lift especially with all those 767s going to Rouge and the 787 delays.

opethfan · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:10 pm

If they haven't received a single offer in several months for pretty new frames, then there's likely some substantial issues with the condition of the aircraft. Not to mention that the LRs are essentially niche aircraft at this point, with the 787 and A350 poised to match its range and the 77W's improvements making more passengers viable over longer distances.

[Edited 2014-08-12 16:13:24]

mffoda · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:19 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 2):
If they haven't received a single offer in several months for pretty new frames, then there's likely some substantial issues with the condition of the aircraft. Not to mention that the LRs are essentially niche aircraft at this point, with the 787 and A350 poised to match its range and the 77W's improvements making more passengers viable over longer distances.

My guess would the the A/C record keeping is the main problem regarding resale or lease. Air India is not know for their meticulous records...

Kaiarahi · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:21 pm

AC kicked the tires long ago and declined. MX records were not acceptable.

BiggerJetsPlz · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:40 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 4):
AC kicked the tires long ago and declined. MX records were not acceptable.

So in other words, VT-ALA/B/C/D/E were extremely lucky to have found a new owner with EY as A6-ALA/B/C/D/E and be back in ULH service.

[Edited 2014-08-12 16:41:38]

n471wn · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:55 pm

Air India has said all three of these a/c will be repaired

dtw2hyd · Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 4):
AC kicked the tires long ago and declined. MX records were not acceptable.

Those were VT-ALA to ALE. Happily flying with EY now as A6-LRA-LRE. It took two years but apparently AI sold for more than book value. I have no idea about the accounting, but lightsaber said so.

AI decided to sell VT-ALF-ALH only in May 2014. Switched to sell or lease in July 2014.

Right now ALF & G along with B744s are used to evacuate Indian workers from Iraq and Libya.

http://www.bangaloreaviation.com/201...bstacles-rescuing-nurses-iraq.html

ALH status still not clear. Someone posted it has been cleaned up or could be just monsoon season.

[Edited 2014-08-12 17:22:32]

Prost · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:00 am

Longshot, I wonder if Delta would be able to take the frames and complete the win ddown of the NRT hub to provide lift for SEA-BKK and SEA-SIN. Now, whether the market could support these routes, I have no idea.

compensateme · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 9):
Longshot, I wonder if Delta would be able to take the frames and complete the win ddown of the NRT hub to provide lift for SEA-BKK and SEA-SIN. Now, whether the market could support these routes, I have no idea.

We're more likely to see ATL-BGW than SEA-SIN/BKK.

Prost · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:18 am

As I said, a longshot. With so few 777-200LRs in operation, I was just wondering what current operators could make use for them. The number obviously increases if we add the 777-300ER operators, but I don't see many adding 3 LR to their fleet.

pnwtraveler · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:20 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 4):
AC kicked the tires long ago and declined. MX records were not acceptable.

Plus the asking cost at the time and cost to upgrade the interiors fried any further chance of a deal.

goldenstate · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:25 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 9):

Longshot, I wonder if Delta would be able to take the frames and complete the win ddown of the NRT hub to provide lift for SEA-BKK and SEA-SIN. Now, whether the market could support these routes, I have no idea.

No interest in either the specific aircraft or in those hypothetical routes.

RyanairGuru · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 2):
there's likely some substantial issues with the condition of the aircraft

I thought that another major issue was that, like TG with their 345s, AI weren't willing to take a book loss on the aircraft and were therefore trying to sell them for much more than their (limited) market value?

It doesn't matter, though, they only need to wait until the Abu Dhabi-India bilateral comes up for re-negotiation

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 10):
We're more likely to see ATL-BGW than SEA-SIN/BKK.

Unfortunately this is true, yields between North America and South East Asia are notoriously dire.

seabosdca · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
It doesn't matter, though, they only need to wait until the Abu Dhabi-India bilateral comes up for re-negotiation

Very revealing that EY hasn't bid this time around.

The universe of operators who might even be able to use 3 x 777-200LR effectively is very small: AC, DL, EK, EY, and QR covers it.

We have folks in the know on this thread saying AC and DL aren't interested.

EK is taking delivery of new 777-300ERs as fast as they can find crew to fly them and really doesn't need a few random LRs.

QR and its white gloves taking a used aircraft is flatly impossible to imagine.

That leaves only EY... and they're not bidding.

Edit: One other rumor that has bounced around is that AA wants a few LRs to fly to Johannesburg. But I think they will just wait for the 787-9 to do that mission.

[Edited 2014-08-12 17:57:01]

b747400erf · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:18 am

I am surprised a company like White has not purchased them for cheap to operate like they do for Ceiba. There isn't a market for these long range airplanes with African or European carriers?

BiggerJetsPlz · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 17):
One other rumor that has bounced around is that AA wants a few LRs to fly to Johannesburg. But I think they will just wait for the 787-9 to do that mission.

That article can be found here: http://www.exmiami.org/index.php/ame...-start-miami-johannesburg-flights/

I would be very surprised if AA would take ex AI frames, even though these three frames would be perfect for this one ULH route, MIA to JNB.

[Edited 2014-08-12 18:31:45]

dfambro · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I don't get why almost every time an aircraft comes onto the market that is not new, someone has to talk about DL taking them.

You're certainly right that someone always brings that up! At least in this case DL is a current operator of the type, along with only a very small handful of others.

dtw2hyd · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
It doesn't matter, though, they only need to wait until the Abu Dhabi-India bilateral comes up for re-negotiation

Not going to happen. Keep in mind EY has its own Indian Wide Body Aircraft parking service called 9W. It will be a while before they put all sun bathing 9W WBs back in service/leased/sold.

Prost · Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I don't get why almost every time an aircraft comes onto the market that is not new, someone has to talk about DL taking them.

Well, you could have sent me a PM to ask me, but as you felt the need to ask in public, I will answer in public.

Fact: DL has 777-200LR in their fleet, few airlines due.
Facr: DL has an RFP for widebody aircraft to expand replace older widebody capacity in their fleet.

I hardly feel my asking if this was a possibility would be such an afront on so many gentle readers sensibilities, but I guess I should defer to others.

[Edited 2014-08-12 19:17:54]

The777Man · Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:19 am

I think I read somewhere that Ceiba Intercontinental was looking to add more 777s to its fleet of just one that they currently have. Turkmenistan Airlines also are adding more routes and may want to add more 777s. They may want to add these AI 77Ls.

The777Man

nws2002 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:46 am

I heard that Omni was looking at the aircraft, but I guess either the price was too high or they didn't like the condition.

777Jet · Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 27):
Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I don't get why almost every time an aircraft comes onto the market that is not new, someone has to talk about DL taking them.

Well, you could have sent me a PM to ask me, but as you felt the need to ask in public, I will answer in public.

Fact: DL has 777-200LR in their fleet, few airlines due.
Facr: DL has an RFP for widebody aircraft to expand replace older widebody capacity in their fleet.

In addition to those excellent points you make, and as you would know, DL has a habit and it well known for taking up used frames

It would be silly not to consider DL taking up the said frames...

Qantas744er · Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:25 am

Keep in mind the AI frames have small AFT cargo doors. That is another downside to these frames. Any carrier wishing to maximize the -200LR pallet carrying capability will be restricted to the forward hold.

MCOflyer · Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:29 am

I think if DL were to take on additional a/c like these, the books would have to be perfect. The records here for these a/c are not.

KH

ist2014 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:30 am

these 8(7) frame were a good options for TK, but i do not know why, they looked and then not interested

syncmaster · Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 29):
or they didn't like the condition.

An uninformed comment, but I suspect this has more to do with why they are unable to rid themselves of these aircraft then anything else.

mhockey31091 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:52 am

I understand that the 787 and 77L were designed for two completely different roles, but if an airline is struggling to utilize the aircraft they currently have, why would they accept deliveries of the new 787's when they got them?

iahcsr · Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:11 am

Seems the only way to sell them will be to go super low on price or agree as part of the sell to pay all costs for the equivalent of a D check/repair.

Prost · Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:15 am

I wonder if these frames will meet the same fate as some A318s, worth more as parts (for 777-300ERs) than as complete aircraft.

TC957 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:42 am

Perhaps the Russian carriers could check these 77L's out, Orenair or Norwind for example who have recently acquired used 777's.

waly777 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:57 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 30):

What habit is this if I may ask? Because they picked up used 717's it's a habit?

It's one thing to purchase airframes on the cheap for shorthaul where non fuel costs make up the majority of operating costs and another to purchase used wide bodies where fuel could easily account for 50% plus of trip cost.

I don't think Delta has taken up used wide bodies outside a merger for quite a number of years.

With regards to the post, it's very unlikely they will find buyers. EY has enough of those for the routes it's required and with 789 & 380 arriving in the last quarter, there's no need for more used 77L in the fleet.

chiad · Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Thread starter):
It looks like AI failed to get any offers on their last three 777-200LRs

Of course they can sell them.
I would buy them if the price was right!
PS! I would require them delivered also!

bunumuring · Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:53 am

Hi guys,
I agree that an operator like White or HiFly could operate these jets.
Delta, Ceiba or Turkmenistan would be my choice for a 'mainstream' operator. How about Biman Bangladesh? Could they use them to supplement their 777-300ERs?
The other option is of course as VIP birds. Would the Indian Air Force be interested?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

[Edited 2014-08-13 03:37:05]

na · Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:26 am

Air India or not, the 777LR is not quite what the world is waiting for. Sad, as its the best looking 777 variant.

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Thread starter):
It looks like AI failed to get any offers on their last three 777-200LRs (which they put up for sale in April 2014

In fact they are trying to get rid of them since 2 years or more.

flylku · Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:34 am

Quoting chiad (Reply 40):
Of course they can sell them.
I would buy them if the price was right!
PS! I would require them delivered also!

Exactly. Unless the cost of returning them to service exceeds the price the seller is willing to accept.

dtw2hyd · Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:53 am

Sale tender is open until 12/31/14.

My take AI is not in a hurry to sell these three. They are substitutes for 77Ws,778s,domestic/regional high-density routes (though I disagree) and now Middle East evacuations.

Previous government neither released allocated funds nor helped with financing new deliveries. That is resolved with new administration. They have $1+ Billion budget allocation, $280 Million external operational finance and $400 Million external finance for B787 deliveries this year.

Only near term potential customer is Iran, if they want to use the temporary sanction waiver.

RWA380 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 2):

If they haven't received a single offer in several months for pretty new frames, then there's likely some substantial issues with the condition of the aircraft

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 13):
I thought that another major issue was that, like TG with their 345s, AI weren't willing to take a book loss on the aircraft and were therefore trying to sell them for much more than their (limited) market value

I've understood by reading A.net, that AI didn't want any negative equity in the deal to rid themselves of the type. EY bought the best five of the eight planes. The three left AI is likely trying to get premium cash for three less than desirable aircraft.

Liverpoola380 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:01 pm

Would the European Charter carriers see a need for a 777, If they could get them at a reduced price they could be able to fill them up on trips to Orlando or other load heavy bucket and spade destinations.

That said it could be too much of an aircraft for a charter operator.

AA777223 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:11 pm

3 frames, eh? Just the perfect amount for a certain halo route that no one has been able to try yet. I wish that our friends with the kangaroo on their tail would take the opportunity to open a SYD-LHR service. BA bought a tiny fleet of niche aircraft just for LCY-JFK. The LR is the only aircraft I think could even attempt the service. I know it would never happen, but we can dream.

newbief1yer · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:18 pm

Spotted this in LAX last week. A6-LRB

9MMPD · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:26 pm

What about HY Uzbekistan Airways? They are looking to expand and the 77L would allow them to offer NYC direct and open other Oil and Gas destinations such as IAH. Plus as a national prestige factor UZbekistan could boast they operated the 777 like their neighbours Turkmenistan.

Flighty · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:36 pm

Astounding that political corruption (?) puts AI in a position to sign for new 777s and GE engines, then save a few bucks by trashing those airplanes through noncompliant maintenance. It boggles the mind.

brilondon · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 6):
Air India has said all three of these a/c will be repaired

Do they also sell used cars? I have heard that before...then you purchase it and it still needs more work. I would not trust anything from AI. I would be very weary of these fast talkers.

bunumuring · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 36):
Only near term potential customer is Iran, if they want to use the temporary sanction waiver.

Hi mate,
Great call! I hadn't thought of Iran but I think you are right. Iran could well be a good customer for these IF the sanctions allow it. Imagine Tehran-NYC on a 777-200LR? Maybe never happen, but one can only dream...

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 39):
3 frames, eh? Just the perfect amount for a certain halo route that no one has been able to try yet. I wish that our friends with the kangaroo on their tail would take the opportunity to open a SYD-LHR service. BA bought a tiny fleet of niche aircraft just for LCY-JFK. The LR is the only aircraft I think could even attempt the service. I know it would never happen, but we can dream.

Hi mate,
Nope, can't ever see Qantas buy just 3 777-200LRs like that... Unlike the BA A318s, the QF 777s would be a totally new type in the QF fleet...
I would LOVE it to happen, but I can't see Qantas buying any of this generation of 777s...

Cheers,
Bunumuring.

AA777223 · Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 44):
Nope, can't ever see Qantas buy just 3 777-200LRs like that... Unlike the BA A318s, the QF 777s would be a totally new type in the QF fleet...
I would LOVE it to happen, but I can't see Qantas buying any of this generation of 777s...

I realize it would never happen, for a myriad of reasons, hence this sentence:

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 39):
I know it would never happen, but we can dream.

lightsaber · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:21 pm

AI is dreaming if they think they can be made whole on these frames. ULH frames need to be depreciated on an accelerated schedule due to their limited role.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 7):
Those were VT-ALA to ALE. Happily flying with EY now as A6-LRA-LRE. It took two years but apparently AI sold for more than book value. I have no idea about the accounting, but lightsaber said so.

I said EY overpaid as part of the 9W deal. They actually sold for less than AI's book value. If you're going to quote me, actually find the thread and quote me. This is far enough out of context to be incorrect at best.

Lightsaber

dtw2hyd · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
I said EY overpaid as part of the 9W deal. They actually sold for less than AI's book value. If you're going to quote me, actually find the thread and quote me. This is far enough out of context to be incorrect at best.

Indian Aviation Thread Part 106 (by EK413 Jun 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=6104920&searchid=6143537&s=indian+aviation#ID6143537
Post #34

Quote:
Wait a second, the loan was less than the sales price... It is a matter of depreciation schedule (20 year for depreciation but 12 years for the loan...) So AI did ok. Not a bad deal for AI. In particular with the A359 entering the world fleet; a plane that will fly most (all?) of today's 77L missions.

I didn't get the sense of EY overpaying from this post, I read it as AI did a OK.

bunumuring · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 45):
Quoting AA777223 (Reply 39):
I know it would never happen, but we can dream.

Mate, I so agree with you! A nonstop Sydney-London flight on a 777 would be my idea of heaven...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

dtw2hyd · Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 43):
I would not trust anything from AI.

AI has Boeing/GE managed MRO. On the other hand AC takes their planes all the way to the East to the cheapest possible MRO. Are you suggesting a third party maintenance is better than OEM MRO?

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