Andie007
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Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:43 pm

In the wintertime, Thai Airways will just go on one daily flight btw BKK and Frankfurt (besides the daily LH flight plus the TG flight to MUC).

Instead of this, TG will (re-)introduce Dusseldorf as nonstop destination (4x per week)

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Dusseldorf (DUS) — Bangkok (BKK)
TG927 Abflug: 13:15 Ankunft: 05:50 Boeing 747

Bangkok (BKK) — Dusseldorf (DUS)
TG926 Abflug: 00:55 Ankunft: 07:00 Boeing 747
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


(btw: same flight number they used 20 years ago).
 
TC957
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:01 pm

On that basis, could TG reduce LHR to once daily and try 4 a week from MAN ?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 1):
On that basis, could TG reduce LHR to once daily and try 4 a week from MAN ?

Not quite the same. DUS is an alliance hub for TG, helping it's chances of success on the route.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:10 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 2):

DUS is marginally considered a LH hub .... most of the regional stuff is thrown off to germanwings already
 
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MD80
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:19 pm

Loss-making Thai probably wants to compensate the declining demand of capacities between Thailand and several important Asian markets (China, Japan, South Korea)?
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
Andie007
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:14 pm

4U still will carry a lot of the folks through Europe
(plus airlines like SK, A3, OS, LX, LO, etc.)
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
DUS is marginally considered a LH hub .... most of the regional stuff is thrown off to germanwings already
Quoting Andie007 (Reply 5):
4U still will carry a lot of the folks through Europe
(plus airlines like SK, A3, OS, LX, LO, etc.)

Exactly. However they do it, they offer connections which they couldn't through MAN.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
behramjee
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:12 am

Isnt there a mandate for TG to seriously examine its long haul operations in particular in light of heavy losses and below average demand for inbound tourism into Thailand?

Or has that once again been put aside in the hope that by launching new routes in EU, no matter how big of a loss they end up becoming, the extra boost that those flights would give the Thai economy in turn would off set it?

I see no DUS-BKK-DUS flight loaded on Sabre thus far so as it stands now, this new flight is not yet official.
 
nethkt
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:49 am

Last year they were going back to Vienna but with the overall situation e.g global economy, Thailand political issues et all. VIE didn't make the cut.

Still, I heard DUS, HEL, GVA and VIE are in their wishlist.

THAI has stronger presence in Germany than UK, so I don't think MAN will be their next European destination.
THAI would continue to look at the nonstop routes to Europe as they think it's one of the selling point.
The Government will save them over again and again should anything happen.

Having said that, they are trying hard to re-organize, we are not saying about cost-cutting but more of getting rid of the corrupted actions against the company.
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
behramjee
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:51 am

Quoting nethkt (Reply 8):
THAI has stronger presence in Germany than UK, so I don't think MAN will be their next European destination.


Just in 2013, the comparison stats were as follows:

MAN-BKK...116K pax
GVA-BKK...55K pax
DUS-BKK...60K pax
HEL-BKK...87K pax

On a pro-rated basis, yields on GVA-BKK are about 50% higher than the other mentioned above destinations !

Both GVA-BKK + DUS-BKK can maximum support a 4 weekly nonstop service where as MAN can easily support a B777 daily service with onward feed bound to Australia/NZL/MNL/HKG/China/Japan/SIN/KUL.

[Edited 2014-08-16 04:00:34]
 
SCQ83
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:00 am

Wasn't DUS-BKK one of the planned "Eurowings" long-haul routes?

Quoting nethkt (Reply 8):
Last year they were going back to Vienna but with the overall situation e.g global economy, Thailand political issues et all. VIE didn't make the cut.

Bad timing then. Germany just entered a recession. And North-Rhein-Westphalia (for which DUS is its capital) is really not among the most dynamic German regions.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Bad timing then. Germany just entered a recession. And North-Rhein-Westphalia (for which DUS is its capital) is really not among the most dynamic German regions.

But it is, by far, the most populous and industrialised!
 
uberflieger
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Germany just entered a recession

While GDP contracted 0.2% in 2Q, Germany has a post reunification all time low unemployment rate and rising personal income, likely increasing domestic spending. It is way too early to consider Germany an economy in recession.
 
aviationaware
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:21 pm

Great to see a 744 at DUS!

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Germany just entered a recession.

The economy slowed down, that is something entirely different to a recession. The definition of a recession is negative growth in two subsequent quarters; the German economy grew .7% in the first quarter and contracted .2% in the second, thus Germany will only be in a recession if the third quarter turns out to be negative growth as well.

A .2% decline is not really something that would indicate a worsening environment for such a flight in a society as wealthy as the German. North Rhine Westphalia generates 22% of the German GDP, there is always potential for long distance tourism there.
 
CiC
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:37 pm

Maybe just a smart *A move against AB and EY, as DUS is besides BER (TXL) an AB hub...???
 
LJ
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 13):

A .2% decline is not really something that would indicate a worsening environment for such a flight in a society as wealthy as the German. North Rhine Westphalia generates 22% of the German GDP, there is always potential for long distance tourism there.

And DUS is close to The Netherlands (despite the 2 dailies at AMS, some Dutch pax still get to DUS for an EK flights).
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 9):
On a pro-rated basis, yields on GVA-BKK are about 50% higher than the other mentioned above destinations !

I remember reading something in the archives about a previous attempt on that route that didn't turn well for them.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:43 am

Why doesn't TG get more creative and try LED, HEL and WAW to add more European destinations without hurting existing routes? Are these viable?
 
TC957
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:08 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 17):
try LED, HEL and WAW to add more European destinations without hurting existing routes? Are these viable?

I'd say HEL is well covered by the existing AY service, LED most unlikely now given that Russian tourism is in the doldrums now with tour operators there going bust recently, maybe WAW could work 3 x weekly.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:42 am

Quoting CiC (Reply 14):
Maybe just a smart *A move against AB and EY, as DUS is besides BER (TXL) an AB hub...???

I think this, and ANA flight to DUS as well, are the first signs of how the Star Alliance plans to counter the ME3. If Hub-Hub traffic is lost, they rather lose it to another airline, preferably one the have a JV with, within Star Alliance.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:44 am

How about Ham?EK has alot of passengers going form HAM to BKK via DXB. Here is a link to the loadfactors ....http://www.therouteshop.com/profiles/hamburg-airport/
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:49 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):
I think this, and ANA flight to DUS as well, are the first signs of how the Star Alliance plans to counter the ME3. If Hub-Hub traffic is lost, they rather lose it to another airline, preferably one the have a JV with, within Star Alliance.

There are some major differences IMO.

Dusseldorf has a large (the largest?) Japanese community in Europe. Some Japanese companies are still HQed in the area. There is nothing comparable about Bangkok and NRW.

The impact of the ME3 for Europe-Japan flights is way smaller than for BKK. It is a longer detour, a higher yielding destination and the ME3 have a much smaller presence in Japan compared to Thailand. For instance, EK flies two daily to Tokyo (1 HND, 1 NRT) and 6 dailies to BKK. Not very different for QR, EY or TK.
 
TC957
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:05 pm

Once TG get more 787's, surely they have the ideal aircraft to try new long-haul services.
Maybe they can re-introduce the non-stop LAX with them, or try SFO or YVR given the big UA & AC *A connection possibilities.
 
cityairline
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:42 pm

As usual GOT is totally forgotten.
What I think people don't seem to know here is that the average Swede travel to Thailand twice more often than Britons, thrice more often than the French and FOUR times more often than the Germans. All based on January-July figures of this year.
Then again, yes, Sweden has a smaller population, but when looking at the volumes traveling to Thailand, you'd be amazed.
And I know yields don't have to be great, but neither are they on the other Scandinavian routes. TG is chasing volume here in Scandinavia.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 9):
Just in 2013, the comparison stats were as follows:

MAN-BKK...116K pax
GVA-BKK...55K pax
DUS-BKK...60K pax
HEL-BKK...87K pax

Behramjee, I remember you posting the same type of numbers but for 2012, where you also included GOT-BKK O/D numbers. IIRC GOT almost reached the same number as HAM/TXL/DUS.
Do you have the figures available for 2013?

/Alex
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
aviationaware
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 21):
Dusseldorf has a large (the largest?) Japanese community in Europe. Some Japanese companies are still HQed in the area. There is nothing comparable about Bangkok and NRW.

Also, the direct flight to DUS really hurt ANA's FRA loads. Like REALLY hurt. ANA cannibalized themselves with that flight much more than hurting the ME3, who (as has been pointed out by others) have very limited Tokyo traffic as Dubai is a major detour to Japan (from Europe). The farther north you get in East Asia, the more of a detour DXB naturally becomes, and the farther South you go (like Bangkok, Philippines etc.) the more attractive does Emirates become, an effect only strengthened by the lower yields in those markets making them less attractive for EU operators.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Once TG get more 787's, surely they have the ideal aircraft to try new long-haul services.
Maybe they can re-introduce the non-stop LAX with them, or try SFO or YVR given the big UA & AC *A connection possibilities.

Not enough range.

LAX-BKK is 8270miles, and with headwinds becomes equivalent of over 9000.
mercure f-wtcc
 
aviationaware
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:17 pm

TG should really start HAM and screw EK out of all the BKK pax.
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Maybe they can re-introduce the non-stop LAX with them, or try SFO or YVR given the big UA & AC *A connection possibilities.

I disagree. LAX is just hanging in as it is, and there's talks TG might axe it and pull out of North America altogether.
If LAX doesn't work, SFO doesn't stand a chance. TG will never get landing rights in Canada in a million years. Because the way Canadian bilaterals are issued, they would have to jump backwards to prove substantial O&D between Canada and Thailand, and even if they managed to do it, the would not be able to get daily flights, which would be a death sentence even before the route started. The fact that TG and AC are in the same alliance doesn't mean much. Ask SQ about their ambitious Canada plans that were put to shelves after fierce opposition by AC, eventually driving SQ to pull out of Canada altogether. That was years ago. More recently, star airline BR also had plans to expand Canada service and got the AC welcome!
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting Andie007 (Thread starter):
In the wintertime, Thai Airways will just go on one daily flight

TG BKK-FRA is 13x weekly for the time being.
I think the daily flight deploying the 380 will be the sole available operation in winter time.




.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 25):
LAX-BKK is 8270miles, and with headwinds becomes equivalent of over 9000.

Singapore Airlines used to fly the EWR-SIN segment with the 345 aircraft and this route was 15% farther than BKK-LAX. I ignore further information about the autonomy of their 787s.
DL BKK-NRT-LAX is routed with a tech stop at Tokyo Narita and it usually involves changing planes, in spite of the same flight number.
Having said that, probably the BKK-LAX non-stop service would never happen profitably.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
tommy1808
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:15 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 21):

There are some major differences IMO.

There are lots of differences of course, but i still have the feeling that is the strategy. I guess we will see if there will be non-stop CA flights after the LH/CA commences.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
galleypower
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:54 am

You make it sound sound like there are some idots rolling the dice were to fly to next.

How about HAM, A, B, C,... jeez. Routeplanning ist a highly specialized business with lots of factors to be considered. Get real!
 
LondonCity
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:07 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 28):
TG BKK-FRA is 13x weekly for the time being.
I think the daily flight deploying the 380 will be the sole available operation in winter time.

Yes TG will operate only 1x flight daily FRA-BKK. It just shows how much of the market has shifted to TG's rivals. After all the winter season is the busiest time of year for travel between Europe/Scandinavia and Thailand, SE Asia, Australia etc.
 
elephantboy
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:45 pm

From The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/busi...-tap-regional-market-30241130.html

It said that TG will focus on regional routes especially Sapporo and Yangon which are highly profitable. The other destinations are Perth, Narita, China and Scandinavia.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:04 pm

Long-Haul to DUS -> certain way to burn money. DUS is no hub, never will be and does not have the yields for long.haul.
 
arn777
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting cityairline (Reply 23):
As usual GOT is totally forgotten.

I agree with you. I believe there is a market for either TG or DY to BKK and perhaps even DY to JFK a couple a times a week, and last but no least QR 319 to DOH. QR should have been at GOT years ago..
 
bavair
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 33):
Long-Haul to DUS -> certain way to burn money. DUS is no hub, never will be and does not have the yields for long.haul.

I have to disagree. The connectivity is, by no means the same as FRA, MUC or even ZRH and VIE (while just staying in the LH group), but nevertheless, there is still comparable with the likes of BRU or even WAW which also support their own long haul. DUS also has the added advantage of having a huge catchment area with lots of O&D demand. While I don't work in route planning, I know the people that do are extremely good at it (I can only talk for LH, but I assume the same for TG), and the general opinion seems to be that DUS definitely has the potential for a few long haul routes. I think that without having any numbers at hand, it is extremely difficult to judge, but LH, AB (and LTU) all seem to think it's worthwhile to run long haul from there.
 
MAN2SIN2BKK
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:49 pm

OK, which FRA flight is supposed to be dropped as 2 of my family have booked TG923/TG922 in December returning January. And this morning the TG schedule is still stating 13 a week to BKK-LHR and no reference to BKK-DUS.

I did notice they had altered the MUC schedules to night flight BKK-MUC rather than day which in my personal opinion is a bad move, but.................
 
Andie007
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting arn777 (Reply 34):

Long-Haul to DUS -> certain way to burn money. DUS is no hub, never will be and does not have the yields for long.haul.

Don't underestimate the yields on certain DUS routes (I know that some German forums can be really hard on this w/o having really insights).

LH's DUS-EWR for example is a route which generates pretty solid and good yields in C and Y.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:00 pm

Even though DUS is more like a focus city than a hub for LH, the combined Star long-haul network there is certainly a lot more complete with this add :

LH (with UA JV)
DUS-ORD
DUS-EWR

CA (with LH JV)
DUS-PEK

NH (with LH JV)
DUS-NRT

TG
DUS-BKK
 
Andie007
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:56 pm

It's still listed in the LH board magazine as one of their 3 hubs in Germany (with connection maps).  
 
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seahawk
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:57 am

Quoting Andie007 (Reply 37):
Don't underestimate the yields on certain DUS routes (I know that some German forums can be really hard on this w/o having really insights).

LH's DUS-EWR for example is a route which generates pretty solid and good yields in C and Y.

Yes, New York works and always worked, but BKK on 4/7 is a very tourist heavy route. Even AB dropped the direct connection and they flew this routes for ages (even back in the LTU times).

But in the end I think long-haul from DUS should be stopped. The train ride to FRA is so short, the daily service is a waste.
 
bcworld
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:11 am

Quoting Man2SIN2BKK (Reply 36):

OK, which FRA flight is supposed to be dropped as 2 of my family have booked TG923/TG922 in December returning January. And this morning the TG schedule is still stating 13 a week to BKK-LHR and no reference to BKK-DUS.

TG922/3 is the one to be dropped...the A346 flight.

The schedules are slow to update, but the DUS flight is starting to show up in some places, for example ANA's popular *A award search engine:

BKK Bangkok Metro / Suvarnabhumi Intl TH = BKK DMK [VTBS]
DUS Dusseldorf Metro / Intl DE = DUS NRN QDF [EDDL]
SAT 20 Dec 2014 (20 Dec 2014 - 26 Dec 2014) | 1 Seat

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- -------------
TG 926 BKK 00:55 DUS 07:00 744 0 FS- CS- YS-
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +1 DUS 07:00 +1 *** 0 FS- CS- YS-
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +2 DUS 07:00 +2 *** 0
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +3 DUS 07:00 +3 *** 0 FS- CS- YS-
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +4 DUS 07:00 +4 *** 0
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +5 DUS 07:00 +5 *** 0 FS- CS- YS-
TG 926 BKK 00:55 +6 DUS 07:00 +6 *** 0

...meanwhile TG922/3 shows zero availability in December, which I could understand in the Xmas peak period, but in the first week of December, not very likely at all!

BKK Bangkok Metro / Suvarnabhumi Intl TH = BKK DMK [VTBS]
FRA Frankfurt Metro / Intl DE = FRA HHN [EDDF]
TUE 02 Dec 2014

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- --------------------------------------------------
TG/LH 7662 BKK 12:25 FRA 18:45 343 C4 D0 J0 Z0 U4 Y4 B4 M4 H4 Q4 V4 W4
TG 922 BKK 13:15 FRA 19:05 346 F0 A0 P0 C0 D0 J0 Z0 Y0 B0 M0 H0 Q0 T0 K0 S0 V0 W0
TG 920 BKK 23:40 FRA 05:30 +1 380 F7 A7 P7 C9 D9 J9 Z0 Y9 B9 M9 H9 Q9 T9 K9 S9 V9 W9
 
tommy1808
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 40):
Even AB dropped the direct connection and they flew this routes for ages (even back in the LTU times).

AB dropped the direct connection because the order from..ah... cooperation with the new shareholder Ethiad demanded routing all Asia bound traffic through AUH.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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seahawk
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:53 am

Because AB was making no money on those routes? And if one is honest this concept is sound. The traffic from secondary airports like DUS is not sufficient for more than feeding the real hubs. Be it the European, US or ME3. TG will not make money on the route, surely not with a 744.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:20 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 43):
Because AB was making no money on those routes?

So you are saying AB, and LTU before, did fly to Bangkok for 20something years without making money?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 43):
The traffic from secondary airports like DUS is not sufficient for more than feeding the real hubs.

The O&D traffic in DUS is plenty enough for a select choice of non-stop destinations. There are 10 Million people in the Rhine-Ruhr Metropolitan Region.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 43):
Be it the European, US or ME3. TG will not make money on the route, surely not with a 744.

They save 10% of flying compared with the ME3 alternatives, that should make up for a good part of the fuel inefficiency. Which other aircraft should they send?
A333? Not enough range and probably the runway in DUS is a bit short.
A346? Much to premium heavy
77E/77W? Seem logical, but they are needed elsewhere, and being 9-Abreast, not the typical choice for a leisure heavy route
A380? DUS is not ready yet, but this mostly being a tourist route, 3/7 A380 flight would offer the same capacity for some 20-25% less cost. So, maybe in the future, they have them parked anyways.

That leaves the 744.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9319
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
So you are saying AB, and LTU before, did fly to Bangkok for 20something years without making money?

Since EK entered to market, AB had trouble making money to BKK, yes. Especially since EK went 2 daily to DUS:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
They save 10% of flying compared with the ME3 alternatives, that should make up for a good part of the fuel inefficiency. Which other aircraft should they send?

None. It is a route that won´t work. The 744 will also be runway limited. Maybe if they could spare a 787 but then there a probably more interesting markets than DUS to fly those to.

Apart from that the whole Rhein-Ruhr-Region is well within the FRA catchment area, especially for long-haul. 90 minutes by train.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12218
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 45):
The 744 will also be runway limited

Nope. Unless it is a very hot day a 744 can carry its maximum structural payload out of DUS to BKK, a full cabin + bags will never be a problem with plenty of weight for cargo to spare.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 45):
Apart from that the whole Rhein-Ruhr-Region is well within the FRA catchment area, especially for long-haul. 90 minutes by train.

And of course someone from Düsseldorf will gladly hop on a train instead of just catching a non-stop flight at his doorstep. That must also be the reason why no-one is flying EK to DXB or AB to AUH.... oh wait, people do.
You can assume with almost 100% certainty that a lot of the capacity is already sold to tour operators.

Plus of course, most of the Rhein-Ruhr Region is not within 90 Minutes of FRA. The non-stop train from Münster takes almost 4 hours to FRA and i can imagine people loving switching trains with all their luggage. DUS would not be operating at 100% capacity if "its withing FRA catchment area" would be a valid point.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9319
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:49 am

Who really has DXb or AUH as their destination, most people connect via DXB / AUH.

A little late for the route for tour operators as winter season 14/15 is already open for booking for 6 weeks +. So the deals were made 7-8 months ago.

We will see how the flight goes, I predict it won´t last long.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12218
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:13 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 47):
Who really has DXb or AUH as their destination, most people connect via DXB / AUH.

Exactly my point. People prefer the Airport at their doorstep even if they have to transfer at some hub. You really think they won´t prefer a non-stop at the doorstep over both alternatives they currently have?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 47):
A little late for the route for tour operators as winter season 14/15 is already open for booking for 6 weeks +. So the deals were made 7-8 months ago.

And what makes you assume they didn´t know about the route coming online before the general public did? You don´t think the Thai Airlines Sales staff did probe first thing in the morning after they knew the route was considered? And of course, we have this cute little thing called "the Internet" these days, Tour operators are not slavishly bound to their catalog printing cycle anymore.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 47):
We will see how the flight goes, I predict it won´t last long.

And i predict its here to stay. DUS´s catchment area has about 10.000 travelers to Thailand per month, Thai brings about 6500 seats/month to DUS. They already had quite some of them traveling on TG 922/923, after flying or taking the train to Fra.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
vfw614
Posts: 3822
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Thai Airways: Frankfurt 1x Daily // 4/7 BKK-DUS

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:28 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 40):
Yes, New York works and always worked, but BKK on 4/7 is a very tourist heavy route. Even AB dropped the direct connection and they flew this routes for ages (even back in the LTU times).

DUS-BKK is one of the oldest longhaul routes from DUS. In the 1970s DUS was a stopover for KLM's Bangkok service, later Thai, LTU and airberlin served the route. So overall it is a route with some solid demand. The big question is if enough passengers are willing to pay a premium to fly nonstop from DUS or have one-stop services to other destinations in Thailand and will fly TG instead of EY or EK. My guess is that by now there will be enough passengers. TG for sure have analyzed carefully the origin of passengers using the FRA flights. I suppose they have come to the conclusion that by offering pax who in the past traveled via FRA by train or LH feed and passengers that have taken EY/EK as a one stop a more convenient choice and triggering additional demand with a new nonstop service, they can fill the plane sufficiently. I guess they will have also watched closely what Air China and All Nippn have pulled off at DUS.

Btw, I just had an interesting discussion with the owner of a travel agency in the DUS area who is also organizing specialized inclusive tours. She mentioned that initially people were quite happy to go via DXB and AUH because it was often combined with stop-overs. But apparently there is a growing clientele that prefers to not go via the ME if there is a choice. So she is quite happy about all those new longhaul nonstops from DUS like PEK, NRT and BKK.

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