Skywest Ends LAX - Yuma Service.

LAXintl · Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:13 am

Another Skywest Brasilia at-risk route goes bye-bye.

Double daily LAX-YUM ends December 2nd.

United Express to discontinue service to Yuma in December
http://www.yumasun.com/news/united-e...2-2505-11e4-b618-001a4bcf6878.html

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Yuma is left with only service to PHX on US Express.

dsuairptman · Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:33 am

I'd say this has more to do with OO retiring EM2s to staff the 175 aircraft. I know several west coast markets are losing OO EM2 UA service. Any idea if this flying will cease alltogether and if not how many aircraft will be left?

usxguy · Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:30 am

I'm wondering what will happen to Eureka/Arcata...

as739x · Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:04 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 2):

ACV will most likely remain. There is sufficent demand, as well as picking up the CEC loads once they lose EMB service. My opinion is that it will go to 3 daily CR2 flights when the time comes.

PHX787 · Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:23 am

Maybe this is some more impetus for that railway line they're proposing to have a route go to Yuma....

Currently in AZ they're looking at options for building a rail line between TUS and PHX....As well as a high speed line between PHX, LAS, and LAX.

Maybe the line should head down to Yuma as well?

[Edited 2014-08-17 04:38:05]

Goldenshield · Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:27 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Currently in AZ they're looking at options for building a rail line between TUC and PHX....

I know that Phoenix has a large latino population, but I doubt a rail line to Argentina would solve anything.

PHX787 · Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:39 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
I know that Phoenix has a large latino population, but I doubt a rail line to Argentina would solve anything.

I lived in PHX for a long time and i STILL mistake the TUC and TUS codes...probably because none of us at ASU would ever consider going anywhere near UofA

Goldenshield · Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I lived in PHX for a long time and i STILL mistake the TUC and TUS codes

No worries. I still sometimes confuse STL for SEA, and I work with them daily.

LAXintl · Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:52 pm

As far as what else might get dropped in the future, anything in the 5290-5480 flight number range is OO pro-rate operations on the UA side so those could be at risk.

IMissPiedmont · Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):

Probably couldn't read a map to get there.

travaz · Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 9):
Probably couldn't read a map to get there.

People that went to ASU don't need a map. We learned how to use a GPS.

phlwok · Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:59 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):

Maybe this is some more impetus for that railway line they're proposing to have a route go to Yuma....

Currently in AZ they're looking at options for building a rail line between TUS and PHX....As well as a high speed line between PHX, LAS, and LAX.

Maybe the line should head down to Yuma as well?

TUS-PHX should be the focus for a rail line for now - new rail projects in the US need to focus on high frequency, high traffic, regional services to be successful for now. The distances out to YUM are longer than between PHX and TUS, and the demand likely low without the potential for through traffic to SAN, PSP and the LA Basin. And rail can't compete on speed versus flying between PHX/TUS and the SoCal airports, in part because of the mountains in southern California.

Amtrak actually already serves Yuma, though only three times per week on the Sunset Limited via Union Pacific tracks. The train routes LA-Palm Springs-Yuma-Maricopa-Tucson then all the way to New Orleans (some cars through to Chicago via the Texas Eagle at San Antonio) with, of course, a bunch of stops in between.

CIDFlyer · Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:34 pm

I wonder if AA might consider starting LAX-YUM?

LAXintl · Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):
I wonder if AA might consider starting LAX-YUM?

On what equipment?

30-seater E120 goes out with 50% LF, its going to be far worse on the 50/70 seat RJ.

AA can stick to the seemingly better YUM-PHX route which has operated with frequency as high as 4-5 daily.

mke717spotter · Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:38 pm

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 11):
TUS-PHX should be the focus for a rail line for now - new rail projects in the US need to focus on high frequency, high traffic, regional services to be successful for now.

I might add that US currently runs PHX-TUS about 10x daily, and most of those flights are with CR9s. Though I'm guessing its almost completely connecting passengers and we'll have to see whether or not there's reductions as the integration progresses.

777ord · Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:40 am

With the retiring of OO 120's, does anyone know if Carlsbad (CLD) will be closed or swapped? I love flying out of that airport!!

LAXintl · Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:46 am

CLD is a at-risk route, not something UA is paying for, so yes eventually it might also get the chop unless OO wants to send RJs there.

Cactus739 · Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):

That must make for some might interesting dispatch paperwork.

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting cactus739 (Reply 17):
That must make for some might interesting dispatch paperwork.

Oh, that's fine. It's when talking on the phone gets involved. :P

UnitedFlyer · Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:39 am

What might this mean for MFR? I'm sure there is sufficient demand for all RF service.

LAXintl · Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:32 pm

MFR is a CPA market for UA and is already half E120 half CRJ. Suspect UA will elect to move remainder to CRJ also.

ScottB · Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting dsuairptman (Reply 1):
I'd say this has more to do with OO retiring EM2s to staff the 175 aircraft.

It's not really about staffing. The E120's have been scheduled for gradual phase-out for several years. If anything, OO has been stretching out the retirement of the fleet. At the end of 2010, they only expected to have 9 Brasilias in the fleet at the close of this year, but the plan as of the end of last year was to still operate 26 at year-end, with 11 in the fleet as of the end of 2017.

The wholesale retirement of 50-seat RJ's from the OO & EV fleets should be more than sufficient to address the staffing needs of the incoming E175's.

mcdu · Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:42 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 21):
It's not really about staffing. The E120's have been scheduled for gradual phase-out for several years. If anything, OO has been stretching out the retirement of the fleet.

If this was scheduled why did the Skywest pilots agree to phantom raises for the E120 if the airplanes were going away? Sounds like the Skywest pilots were very short sighted in that agreement to take less money for the E175 to give E120 raises and then the company starts parking those planes. Perhaps having ALPA on the property to vet that agreement could have been beneficial.

I am glad to see these planes being retired. They are well past their useful lives. I would like to see a new turboprop replace these and Skywest be relegated to only turboprops as mainline recaptures flying. What delta is doing with regards to their regionals is admirable. Let's hope the other remaining mainline carriers follow delta's lead.

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
I would like to see a new turboprop replace these and Skywest be relegated to only turboprops as mainline recaptures flying.

So, with no viable replacements, you want the airline to be left with.... nothing. Oh, wait, that's what you've been wanting anyway.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
What delta is doing with regards to their regionals is admirable.

Throwing in a 717 here and there to supplement demand isn't phasing out regional flying.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
If this was scheduled why did the Skywest pilots agree to phantom raises for the E120 if the airplanes were going away? Sounds like the Skywest pilots were very short sighted in that agreement

It's been known that the company was going to park them sooner or later. There was nothing short-sighted here.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
Perhaps having ALPA on the property to vet that agreement could have been beneficial.

You mean get them a paycut and increase their dues.

ScottB · Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
If this was scheduled why did the Skywest pilots agree to phantom raises for the E120 if the airplanes were going away? Sounds like the Skywest pilots were very short sighted in that agreement to take less money for the E175 to give E120 raises and then the company starts parking those planes. Perhaps having ALPA on the property to vet that agreement could have been beneficial.

I dunno, why do the XE pilots accept less pay than the OO pilots when they're also paying union dues for the privilege? The OO fleet plan has been public knowledge for years; they disclose it every year in their annual report. And I can see the OO pilots accepting slightly less pay for the E175 in order to get the aircraft on the property; OO competes with other regional carriers for the flying and other regionals pay less.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 22):
What delta is doing with regards to their regionals is admirable. Let's hope the other remaining mainline carriers follow delta's lead.

UA is the poster child for replacing mainline with regional carriers.

mcdu · Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
UA is the poster child for replacing mainline with regional carriers.

Except the tide has turned and scope at all the majors is very similar. UA is actively looking for used airplanes to add to the fleet (Listen to the 2Q conference call). These airplanes will be used to replace Express service and hopefully make the commuter airlines, commuter once again.

The E120's are the first of the wave. The 50 seaters are going away and there are not going to be replaced one for one with 70 seaters so the need for commuter pilots and staff will diminish.

I would think you would be very grateful for UAL. Without the codeshare agreement just how many people would be at Skywest?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 24):
And I can see the OO pilots accepting slightly less pay for the E175 in order to get the aircraft on the property;

Then I hope you don't complain when there is no rate reset and you don't get a bump in wages for the E175.

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):
The E120's are the first of the wave. The 50 seaters are going away and there are not going to be replaced

So, tell me, Mcdu, just how many 737's is UA going to put on the LAX-YUM route?

mcdu · Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 26):
So, tell me, Mcdu, just how many 737's is UA going to put on the LAX-YUM route?

I may be wrong but wasn't YUM a Skywest "At risk" flight? If so then UA didn't put the plane on YUM, Skywest did. I think you will see mainline return to many of the routes they ceded in the RJ proliferation era. DL isn't just adding a handful of 717's they are loading up with a good replacement for RJ's. The RJ was sold as the airplane to supplement the mainline routes with added frequency and airline management used the willingness of the express employees to work at severely reduced wages and benefits to cover the lower the bar. Over the past few years many of the RJ pilots especially have seen the damage they did to their own careers and are saying no to continued reductions in contracts.

If you look at what DL is doing they are taking the 6 RJ's out and putting in 3 717's. To the passengers it is invisible as they are buying connections and not single segment RJ flights for the most part. As a result you have happier passengers being transported on real airliners flown by those that have a vested interest in the success of the flight. The realization that outsourced flying is bad for product consistency and especially for reliability has finally dawned on the major carriers.

So to answer your question, UA will not put a 737 on YUM. Will Skywest put their "at risk" to a 50 seat RJ on that route?

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
So to answer your question, UA will not put a 737 on YUM.

Then stop crapping your obtuse "were taking our flying back" opinion all over it.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
Over the past few years many of the RJ pilots especially have seen the damage they did to their own careers and are saying no to continued reductions in contracts.

Excuse me? How did they "damage" their careers? By working at the regionals? By working flights that YOU didn't want anything part of? How is THAT damaging?

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
DL isn't just adding a handful of 717's they are loading up with a good replacement for RJ's.

And what's United doing? Buying bigger airplanes that still fall way behind the competition.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
As a result you have happier passengers being transported on real airliners flown by those that have a vested interest in the success of the flight.

When United puts a vested interest in its own flights and product, let me know. They're constantly falling behind the competition in everything. They just don't care.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
The realization that outsourced flying is bad for product consistency and especially for reliability has finally dawned on the major carriers.

When United puts a vested interest in the reliability of its regional product, let me know.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
airline management used the willingness of the express employees to work at severely reduced wages and benefits to cover the lower the bar

A job is a job. If mainline's not hiring, then go to the one who is.

[Edited 2014-08-18 13:17:08]

aztrainer · Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 11):
TUS-PHX should be the focus for a rail line for now - new rail projects in the US need to focus on high frequency, high traffic, regional services to be successful for now. The distances out to YUM are longer than between PHX and TUS, and the demand likely low without the potential for through traffic to SAN, PSP and the LA Basin. And rail can't compete on speed versus flying between PHX/TUS and the SoCal airports, in part because of the mountains in southern California.

The sad fact is that they have been "planning" this for a very LONG time now. I grew up here and we would always hear of the rail, high speed rail, commuter rail between Phoenix and Tucson, but it never has happened. I would be shocked if it were to happen in the near future.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 14):
I might add that US currently runs PHX-TUS about 10x daily, and most of those flights are with CR9s. Though I'm guessing its almost completely connecting passengers and we'll have to see whether or not there's reductions as the integration progresses.

You are correct as the flights are as follows:
6:00
7:10
8:10
8:40
10:35
12:05
13:29
15:20
17:01
18:10
21;22

SANFan · Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:22 pm

Time for someone to resurrect Bonanza! LAX-SNA-SAN-IPL-YUM-PHX on an F-27 3x daily each way with ~:07 ground times at each airport (with the starboard prop left running while at the gate to help save time!)

Pardon my flashback to the good old days...

bb

Maverick623 · Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
As a result you have happier passengers being transported on real airliners flown by those that have a vested interest in the success of the flight. The realization that outsourced flying is bad for product consistency and especially for reliability has finally dawned on the major carriers.

The vast majority of passengers sort their flight selection by price, then time, then equipment. The first two probably account for the decisions of 95% of the flying public, with the latter only making a difference with aviation geeks who want to say they flew a 737-3AScombiERLRWOMG.

The two reasons 50-seaters are being parked is because of fuel prices (the main reason) and labor costs (which are no longer sustainable at a price that makes up for the high cost of gas).

ScottB · Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):
UA is actively looking for used airplanes to add to the fleet (Listen to the 2Q conference call). These airplanes will be used to replace Express service and hopefully make the commuter airlines, commuter once again.

I read the conference call transcript and here's what was said:

Quote:
One of the things that we're looking at right now is the used aircraft market. And that market varies widely, based upon which aircraft type you're talking about. And I'll give you an example. The 737-800, a 10-year-old 800 is not priced as low, relative to a new 800, as like an Airbus or some of the other older-generation planes. So we need to be opportunistic with respect to which particular aircraft types we look at if we're looking at the used market.

This was in response to an analyst question, and IMO it does not convey the impression that they are actively combing the market for used aircraft in the way that others are; it's more of a statement that used 737-800's aren't as attractively priced (compared to new) as other models. I don't think it is at all a commitment to purchase used mainline aircraft in the way that DL & WN have done, and the only fleet development touted in the call is the replacement of 50-seat capacity with 76-seat capacity.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 25):
Then I hope you don't complain when there is no rate reset and you don't get a bump in wages for the E175.

Fortunately not my problem, but regional pilots these days actually have career opportunities at the mainline carriers -- and that may be their best leverage going forward.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
If you look at what DL is doing they are taking the 6 RJ's out and putting in 3 717's. To the passengers it is invisible as they are buying connections and not single segment RJ flights for the most part.

Um no, that's not what they're doing. The deal DL made with its pilots allows them to add 70 more 76-seat RJ's in exchange for adding the 88 717's. And they'll end up parking somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 50-seaters. So what they're really doing is more like parking 10 50-seaters while putting in 3 717's and 2 CR9's/E175's. Mainline gets larger but then so does the mainline-like product at the regionals.

And the 76-seaters are a better deal for elites at DL; the CR9 and E175 have the same number of F seats as the A320 so upgrades are much, much easier.

mcdu · Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:22 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 32):
And the 76-seaters are a better deal for elites at DL; the CR9 and E175 have the same number of F seats as the A320 so upgrades are much, much easier.

An F seat on a CRJ is like a coach seat on a 717. That is a horrendous airplane at 50 seats as a passenger and making it longer only makes more painful on larger scale. Perhaps the E170 is a little better but to think that elites embrace the upgrade as anything more than an E+ seat on a mainline airplane is off the target.

The total number of airframes are being reduced at the commuter level and that is very good for the job market. Not sure all the commuter pilots that think they are going to walk into a major job are going to be rewarded. UA hosted an ALPA only event (sorry again Skywest, no dues. no news) for a job fair and had many more takers than spots available. It will be the same going forward. There will be commuter pilots left without an island after much of the upheaval that is coming down the pike.

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 33):
An F seat on a CRJ is like a coach seat on a 717.

Now I know you're making things up to "better" your position.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 33):
Perhaps the E170 is a little better but to think that elites embrace the upgrade as anything more than an E+ seat on a mainline airplane is off the target.

Have you even tried first class on a Delta regional? I think not.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 33):
There will be commuter pilots left without an island after much of the upheaval that is coming down the pike.

You'd be a great politician. You spout things, but rarely are they ever true.

[Edited 2014-08-18 14:30:21]

Tomassjc · Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 30):
Time for someone to resurrect Bonanza! LAX-SNA-SAN-IPL-YUM-PHX on an F-27 3x daily each way with ~:07 ground times at each airport (with the starboard prop left running while at the gate to help save time!)

Rode a Hughes Airwest F27 LAX-IPL-YUM-PHX back in the day just so I could take off and land, while the rest of the fam damily went nonstop on a WA 720B. Flashing back right there with 'ya BB !

Tom SJC

Osubuckeyes · Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 33):
An F seat on a CRJ is like a coach seat on a 717

That is kind of funny considering that the CR7/9 F cabins both have the exact same seat dimensions as the 717 F cabins. The E-Jets have the same pitch at 37", but are .4" wider.

EDIT: correction the CR7 has 36" pitch not 37". 1" less than the 717

[Edited 2014-08-18 16:11:55]

C767P · Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
As a result you have happier passengers being transported on real airliners flown by those that have a vested interest in the success of the flight.

WHAT?!

First, what is a fake airliner?!

Second, WHO was it that put all these RJ's in service? It wasn't the regional pilot.

And vested interest in success of the flight? So regional pilots have no interest in the success of any given flight???! Really?

SANFan · Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 35):
Rode a Hughes Airwest F27 LAX-IPL-YUM-PHX back in the day just so I could take off and land, while the rest of the fam damily went nonstop on a WA 720B. Flashing back right there with 'ya BB

Yeah, the family was smart and you, well, you were/are a airplane nut! Simple fact. (Not only that but the family probably got champagne too from Wally!)

So you got on one of the later offerings (the Flying Banana) that didn't include the Santa Ana or San Diego stops; that's too bad.

It was all good Tom!

bb

mcdu · Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting C767P (Reply 37):
And vested interest in success of the flight? So regional pilots have no interest in the success of any given flight???! Really?

If regional pilots had a vested interest they would make PA's during normal and irregular operations, turn off the seat belt sign and out forth a modicum of effort to assure and on-time operation. On the rare occasion a pilot does make a PA's it is often slurred so much it rivals that of a CTA train operator. It often sounds as if the pilot is using his last breath on this earth to make that tiresome PA.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 36):
That is kind of funny considering that the CR7/9 F cabins both have the exact same seat dimensions as the 717 F cabins. The E-Jets have the same pitch at 37", but are .4" wider.

You stuff the seat in a narrow tube not intended for an airliner. The E170 is about the best of the large RJ's, the CRJmega is just torture.

Floor to ceiling heights
DC9-MD80 81"
ERJ170 74"
CRJ7/9 67'!!!! Awkward head lean to get to the seat and a full over bend for most humans.

Goldenshield · Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 39):
On the rare occasion a pilot does make a PA's it is often slurred so much it rivals that of a CTA train operator. It often sounds as if the pilot is using his last breath on this earth to make that tiresome PA.

Funny, I heard one just last week at your airline who sounded he could give two s***s. Of course, this was a 737, so you'd skirt around the issue and say that it's an sCO problem...

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 39):
If regional pilots had a vested interest they would make PA's during normal and irregular operations

OMG, really? If the success of a flight hinged on how someone spoke into a microphone, the entire airline industry is doomed.

#FirstWorldProblems

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 39):
You stuff the seat in a narrow tube not intended for an airliner.

Again, really? Were Convairs, and DC props "Fake", too?

deltal1011man · Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 32):

Um no, that's not what they're doing. The deal DL made with its pilots allows them to add 70 more 76-seat RJ's in exchange for adding the 88 717's. And they'll end up parking somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 50-seaters. So what they're really doing is more like parking 10 50-seaters while putting in 3 717's and 2 CR9's/E175's. Mainline gets larger but then so does the mainline-like product at the regionals.

not completely true. While Delta did get 70 more jets so far they have only order 30.

Maverick623 · Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 39):
If regional pilots had a vested interest they would make PA's during normal and irregular operations, turn off the seat belt sign and out forth a modicum of effort to assure and on-time operation.

Yep. God forbid they actually care about the safety of the passengers.

I really would like to know how they should assure an "on-time operation" if they're constantly making PAs?

SonomaFlyer · Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:02 am

All the the bickering and finger pointing is tiresome folks, lighten up.

As to the regionals, their business model is broken; not enough military pilots are coming over to fly and the cost to become a pilot the civilian route is extreme. Who wants to rack up 65k to 100k of debt to get the hours needed to fly at a regional that will pay 25k per year with a punishing schedule?

The retirements coming up at the mainline airlines mean the big boys have to start building quality of life and pay back into the flying profession. The regionals can't fill their training classes. Endevour I believe had four folks show up out of the 16 or 20 offers they made.

The demise of the YUM service is a combo of retiring the a/c type and the reality that the regional airline in question will have more staffing issues going forward. They are focusing on their most profitable at-risk routes and trying to fulfill their contracts to the legacy carriers.

The model you'll see in a few years will be the E70/75 etc going to mainline carriers. Those planes will fly to the smaller destinations in the network of DL and UA etc. The regional carriers will try to survive shifting their flying elsewhere, that is if they can find people to fly the a/c.

DL, AA and UA are all hiring atm.

oosnowrat · Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:13 am

"If you look at what DL is doing they are taking the 6 RJ's out and putting in 3 717's. To the passengers it is invisible as they are buying connections and not single segment RJ flights for the most part."

It is very much visible to the passenger who now has half as many connections to choose from with layovers of less than an hour. I bet most passengers would prefer an RJ flight now over a mainline flight in 2-3 hours.

bkircher · Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:42 am

I think it would feasible for AA to start or potentially start LAX service from YUM. The cost would be the main thing, UAL was 90% of the time more expensive than US. I used to work for US in Yuma, and saw first hand the differences in cost between the two, its amazing they have lasted that long in Yuma. I hope that AA adds the additional service to LA, and in the future to DFW. It all depends on what happens with PHX after 2 years, when the dot agreement is fulfilled.

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