AWACSooner
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AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:30 am

Video link:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/373040022...se/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips

Obviously, there's two sides to this issue. But I want to discuss the fact that there's now a great deal of folks in Y who flat-out refuse to adhere to the flight attendant's requests that the front lav is for first class only and proceed to march past drawn curtains and loiter in the F cabin (I've seen this on several occasions flying domestic US first). It doesn't surprise me that there have been FA's who have given up trying to enforce this request, and that it's lead to what amounts to a frivolous lawsuit.

Please, no bashing AS...and we all know where this lawsuit will go...I'd like to keep this discussion to the topics of pax rights vs. FA's requests.
 
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spinkid
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:11 am

Granted you should be allowed some perks in First Class, but on a narrow body aircraft where you may only have a limited number of F seats, its hard to justify the private use of the bathroom.

You don't see this on larger aircraft.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:30 am

Quoting spinkid (Reply 1):

Granted you should be allowed some perks in First Class, but on a narrow body aircraft where you may only have a limited number of F seats, its hard to justify the private use of the bathroom.

Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities..

Want to use the forward lav? Pay for it.

Quoting spinkid (Reply 1):
You don't see this on larger aircraft.

Huh???      
Flying around India
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:39 am

For those who'd prefer not to sit through a 5-min. video to get the gist of the story:

Alaska Airlines restroom-use squabble leads to wrongful detainment, $11,500 lawsuit claims
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Revelation
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:51 am

Such squabbles are going to become more and more frequent as airlines add seats and remove lavatories.
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AWACSooner
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:56 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
For those who'd prefer not to sit through a 5-min. video to get the gist of the story:

Thanks westy...I was looking for a real article, but the video was all I could find.
I can honestly see both sides. When I've sat up in F, it's driven me nuts to see the constant parade of Y pax headed to the front lav...I paid for the comfort and the privacy of sitting up front. But when there's only 2 lavs in the back for 120+ pax (depending on aircraft), it creates a proverbial Catch-22. IMO, it comes down to airlines enforcing...just like the carry-on debate.
 
VC10er
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:03 am

Personally I loath people who just push the curtain aside to use a premium cabin lav, UNLESS they ask an FA nicely because it's urgent and the Y lavs each have 2 people ahead of them etc...AND then I believe the FA should say "yes".

On a UA 767, there are lavs by the galley, then come the blue see-through curtains dividing BF and Y. Folks sitting in the first few rows of E+ often just move fast and pass the curtain and use the often occupied lavs and will loiter around the little hallway or get on the C class line. On a 3 class 767 there are only 2 lavs for business and UA has large BF cabins, especially on a 767-400's.

So just say "please, the lavs in the back are in full use with lines, may I use a business lav?"

If they are very lucky they will get a red Carnation and/or a table napkin tied around the wall handle!
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scbriml
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities..

Where in the terms of carriage are you guaranteed use of a specific lav to the exclusion of others?
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nclmedic
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:47 am

I think the issue is possibly more around the allegation that an airline employee caused intentional injury to a passenger. The airline is not being sued for non-exclusivity of the bathroom. It sounds like they are going to need to get their cheque book out.

[Edited 2014-08-18 04:47:40]
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:47 am

Quoting spinkid (Reply 1):
You don't see this on larger aircraft.

You don't..? It's actually very strictly enforced by class on long haul/widebody flights. It's only domestic narrowbody flights where FAs have given up enforcement.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities..

Damn straight! It drives me crazy to have people walking up and down the aisle from Y to use the F lav. I often take an aisle seat, and it seems like half of them use my seat as a handrail or bump into me, which isn't exactly easy to sleep through when you're in a cabin which you expect to relax! The only time I'm not annoyed is if it's a child or elderly person while the cart is in the aisle.

F pax pay good money for certain expectations -- it isn't that difficult asking for a private lav for 12-20 pax. If the Y cabin is 80% full on a 739 with a mid-cabin lav like UA, the pax to lav ratio in Y is less than twice the ratio for F. With a ratio that good, there should be no reason to use the lav in F. If you pay a bargain price, you can wait in line in Y as you're supposed to, not skip it and use the F lav instead. It's rude and it's utilizing a service you haven't paid for.
 
BA0197
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:57 am

I do have to say that, as an American citizen having lived in the USA for quite a while and now living in the UK, this is nothing short of typical American anti-elitism that is an unfortunate trend in our society.

The fact of the matter is that all people are not equal on aircraft. We do not live in a communist regime where everyone gets the same service. The reason we have First class is because the people sitting there have paid for it and its associated benefits; this in most cases reserves the forward loo for F class pax.

Y class pax, paying less for their tickets have accepted that they must queue longer for the toilet, they accept they will not get a three course meal and they accept that they have to pay for bags. That is the service they paid for. It is not discrimination; it is life.

I hope the courts make an example of this. We are a country are veering towards far too much entitlement that has put a lot of countries in the terrible positions they are in today.
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Want to use the forward lav? Pay for it.

LOL tool. On a narrowbody jet like a 737, you have 2 lavs for 140 people and 1 for, what, 6? The ratios don't even come close. As a result, if the "first class lav" is open and there's no service going on, it's absolutely 100% fair game for ANYONE on the jet. You shouldn't be forming lines, both for safety reasons and because I don't think anyone in F class wants a pile of people in their cabin, but if it's free, use it.

Screw your phony sense of entitlement. It's a bathroom, get over it.
 
BA0197
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
Screw your phony sense of entitlement. It's a bathroom, get over it.

Might I add- the exact same phrase could be redirected at you!
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:02 pm

I remember it was the whole lavatory issue that prompted me to join a.net Nice to see the discussion is alive and well.   

Here's the thing: while I agree that Y passengers should be limited only to their lavatories in the back, we can't deny that airlines these days pack the section with passengers and then only have two lavatories. To me, it seems somewhat disproportional that 12 people have the convenience of a lavatory while 120 + the FAs have to share the two in the back.

IF no one in F is using their lavatory, and there's a queue and/or service, I, as an F passenger, would have no trouble with an individual going up to our lavatory. That being said, should a queue form up front, I'd draw the line.
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N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
That is the service they paid for. It is not discrimination; it is life.

You don't pay for a bathroom. You pay for seat, you pay for food, you pay for service. Bathrooms, being an inherent physiological requirement, are not reserved for classes of passengers. It isn't 1912 anymore and you're not on a steamship.

That having been said, F class pax do pay for a smaller cabin and, similarly, a bit of privacy. As a result, there should be no forming of lines, no leaning on people's seats, etc. etc. If, however, as I said, the rear lavs are occupied, the front lav is open, and a Y class passenger can use it discretely and quickly, the only thing creating an issue is attitudes of those in the F class cabin. If you're, purely on principle, going to make another human being suffer because they "don't deserve" your bathroom, you're a jerk.

[Edited 2014-08-18 05:12:40]
 
BA0197
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
You don't pay for a bathroom. You pay for seat, you pay for food, you pay for service. Bathrooms, being an inherent physiological requirement, are not reserved for classes of passengers. It isn't 1912 anymore and you're not on a steamship.

I can name several places/countries (including in the US) where you have to pay to use the toilet. Food is an inherent physiological requirement as well might I add; you do not see people going up and taking F class food do you? The fact of the matter is, is that on most airlines it is part of the service element of the cabin and often includes flowers, better toiletries and added amenities.

I am not saying at all that common sense and leniency for the elderly or infirm should not be applied, but it should never be common practice.
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:20 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):
Food is an inherent physiological requirement as well might I add; you do not see people going up and taking F class food do you?

Yeah, you can carry any amount of food you want on a jet. You can't carry a bathroom on with you.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):
but it should never be common practice.

Agreed. If the rear lavs are free, Y class pax should stick to them. They should also not deny usage of the forward lav to F class pax, or congregate in the F class cabin.

But the forward lav is not "strictly reserved" for F class pax.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:23 pm

Reminds me of the early days of train travel. They had carriages with open roofs for the cheapest seats. Not because it cost too much to put a roof on, but to make people pay more for the better seats.
 
N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 pm

I think a major part of the issue is that the quality of the F class product these days, domestically anyway, is far inferior to even coach class products of 20 years ago. Yes, your seat is wider, but the legroom isn't that much better, you don't even get food half the time, and the rest of the travel experience is just as lousy as everyone else's. The result is people pay 4 grand, realize it totally wasn't worth it, at all, and then have to grab at straws to justify their expense.

I was deeply unimpressed with, for example, UAL's F class the last time I flew it ORD-DEN. I got a bag of chips chucked at me and there was nary a pillow or blanket to be found.
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:32 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
Where in the terms of carriage are you guaranteed use of a specific lav to the exclusion of others?

If you're going to allow Y tickets the use of the F lavatory, hell, why not let them have a sit in the F seats, perhaps have a drink before departure and get priority luggage delivery ?

You are being pedantic. It is accepted that the curtain is there for a reason and that your ticket grants you access privileges onboard commensurate to the class you have paid for.

For anyone who objects to such class divide, travel in future on one class airlines; it's that simple.
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N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:44 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 19):
For anyone who objects to such class divide, travel in future on one class airlines; it's that simple.

How about this instead: assuming the rear lavs are occupied, the curtain is not drawn, and there is no service going on in the F class cabin, I am going to go ahead and get up from my seat, walk forward in the aircraft, and use the forward lavatory. It takes me 2 minutes, and I'm discrete.

Nobody will stop me because, as "accepted" as it may be that the forward lav is reserved, it is- in fact- not, and if you have an issue with it you're welcome to body block me and get arrested at the gate for threatening another passenger!

The funny thing is that I mostly agree with you, if I paid for F I wouldn't want a constant parade of Y class going by me, but to say that all coach pax are universally excluded from the forward lav is ridiculous.
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 16):
They should also not deny usage of the forward lav to F class pax, or congregate in the F class cabin.

On virtually all narrowbodies and quite a few widebodies, congregating by the F lav isn't allowed regardless of ticketed class of service due to the lav's proximity to the cockpit.
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N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
On virtually all narrowbodies and quite a few widebodies, congregating by the F lav isn't allowed regardless of ticketed class of service due to the lav's proximity to the cockpit.

Yeah I already pointed that out on various occasions that there should be no congregating.

I might also mention that the "I paid for it" argument is ludicrous considering over half of the F class cabin did not, in fact, pay for their seat. So, then, using the "I paid for it" logic, should upgrades, non-revs, and deadheading crew be forced to walk to the rear of the aircraft?
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
LOL tool.

Charming.   

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
Screw your phony sense of entitlement. It's a bathroom, get over it.

It's a bathroom for which, on most carriers with a separate premium cabin, an announcement is made that the forward restroom is only for the use of those seated in First Class. You agree to their conditions of carriage when you purchase a ticket and abiding by crew's instructions comes under that.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
If you're, purely on principle, going to make another human being suffer

Queueing now invokes the Human Rights Act does it..? Spare me; tie a knot in it or queue or buy a more expensive ticket which allows access to those facilities.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
As a result, if the "first class lav" is open and there's no service going on, it's absolutely 100% fair game for ANYONE on the jet.

If I'm in First on a transcon, the last thing I want is people from Coach tramping through the cabin; I've paid for that cabin because I like to sleep on long flights. First gives me that opportunity, but not if my seat is going to reverberate from the passing few Coach passengers who think their $99 Super Coach Last minute standby no bags ticket entitles them to the privileges other passengers have paid considerably more for.

As it is clearly a matter of class divide for you, I suggest you consider travelling only on one class airlines in future, thus allowing those of us who pay for and enjoy First Class the privileges of it in peace and quiet.

Rgds
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BA0197
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 20):
The funny thing is that I mostly agree with you, if I paid for F I wouldn't want a constant parade of Y class going by me, but to say that all coach pax are universally excluded from the forward lav is ridiculous.

Yes, like you said, discretion should be used by the cabin crew, and with their permission I agree, the use of the forward toilet can be allowed for Y pax, but it should be an exception in rare circumstances. A queue in the back loo should not discourage you from going back there and waiting.

If you approached a checkin desk for Y-class that was packed; it would be most improper to go to the First class checkin area. Now, if you were going to miss your flight because you were late checking in, a member of staff may approach you and offer you to use the F class checkin area as a courtesy; but I for one, would not feel it appropriate at all for me to use that if I was not entitled to do so.

[Edited 2014-08-18 05:52:41]
 
N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
If I'm in First on a transcon, the last thing I want is people from Coach tramping through the cabin; I've paid for that cabin because I like to sleep on long flights. First gives me that opportunity, but not if my seat is going to reverberate from the passing few Coach passengers who think their $99 Super Coach Last minute standby no bags ticket entitles them to the privileges other passengers have paid considerably more for.

You will note that I said in at least 1 post that I do not think Y class passengers should be impeding on the privacy of F class for that very reason.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
As it is clearly a matter of class divide for you

Nope, actually it's a matter of physiological needs.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
I suggest you consider travelling only on one class airlines in future, thus allowing those of us who pay for and enjoy First Class the privileges of it in peace and quiet.

Oh so now I'm not just excluded from your bathroom, but your entire airline?!
 
N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 24):
Yes, like you said, discretion should be used by the cabin crew, and with their permission I agree, the use of the forward toilet can be allowed for Y pax, but it should be an exception in rare circumstances. A queue in the back loo should not discourage you from going back there and waiting.

If you approached a checkin desk for Y-class that was packed; it would be most improper to go to the First class checkin area. Now, if you were going to miss your flight because you were late checking in, a member of staff may approach you and offer you to use the F class checkin area as a courtesy; but I for one, would not feel it appropriate at all for me to use that if I was not entitled to do so.

Agree completely. Perhaps a major issue here is that I'm looking at this from my own point of view and, being a courteous person, I get offended when people go out of their way to make my life difficult.

Ordinary Y class passengers, in fact ordinary ALL class passengers, are dicks. They pile up in front of the gate, they jam their elbows into your sides, they watch their ipads with the volume all the way up and no headphones... yeah, I totally get why we want to discourage these people from impeding on your cabin.

But me, the guy who actually uses his head, just wants to quietly take a piss, and I'm not going to let your elitism stop me because, at the point when I'm in coach and decide to use the forward lav, it's entirely practical, and only a total jerk would have an issue with it.
 
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:00 pm

Somehow i knew this was going to turn into some BS marxian debate....  
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities..

This is the reason why this lawsuit will be thrown out.... end of story. That's why airlines create classes of seating.
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Cubsrule
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
If I'm in First on a transcon, the last thing I want is people from Coach tramping through the cabin; I've paid for that cabin because I like to sleep on long flights.

I understand that sentiment, but my last F flight (last week) was AA DFW-BNA. I think there were 7 or 8 of us in F and Y was full or virtually full. Not one passenger used the lav during the flight. I don't know that I would have noticed or cared if a Y passenger or two came up and used "our lav." I might well have figured that it was someone seated in one of the rows of F behind me. I think I'm with this sentiment:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 24):
discretion should be used by the cabin crew, and with their permission I agree, the use of the forward toilet can be allowed for Y pax, but it should be an exception in rare circumstances.
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N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
I don't know that I would have noticed or cared if a Y passenger or two came up and used "our lav." I might well have figured that it was someone seated in one of the rows of F behind me.

lol like everyone in Y class is just partying like they're on the new year's train in "Trading Places" while F class is trying to slumber.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
I suggest you consider travelling only on one class airlines in future

Likewise! Perhaps a share of a fractional jet would be more up your street?

[Edited 2014-08-18 06:22:46]
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:24 pm

Wow. The sense elitism from some of the F pax here is borderline disgusting. Especially people referring to the F bathroom as "our bathroom". Your issue should be with the manners of people who come to use the bathroom, not about whether they've "paid" for the use of that bathroom or whether, let's be honest, people you think below you should be up in "your cabin". If someone quietly enters the F cabin, uses the bathroom and quietly leaves, it's no different than someone from an F seat behind you doing the same thing. I expect there's a lot of true issues here that some F pax are going out of the their way not to voice.
 
N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:33 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
. Your issue should be with the manners of people who come to use the bathroom, not about whether they've "paid" for the use of that bathroom or whether, let's be honest, people you think below you should be up in "your cabin"

      If anyone wants to approach this one from an "everyone from Y class is rude and inconsiderate and therefore I get upset when they use the forward lav" standpoint, I'm right there with you. Unfortunately, that's not the way people seem to think.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
That's why airlines create classes of seating.

Actually they do it to make $$$. That's literally the only reason.

By the way, with regard to the original post, suing the airline? Seriously? How self-absorbed do you have to be to waste a court's time with that one?

[Edited 2014-08-18 06:35:52]
 
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RWA380
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:36 pm

Quoting spinkid (Reply 1):

Granted you should be allowed some perks in First Class, but on a narrow body aircraft where you may only have a limited number of F seats, its hard to justify the private use of the bathroom.

The Y passengers who have flown Y more than once, are quite aware of the limited facilities onboard a modern aircraft. If easy access to a bathroom is an issue then pay for F, then you have a 1 in 16 chance of it being your turn instead of 1 in 50.

I pay for F, I am losing value when Y passengers invade our F cabin. I and my fellow F passengers are paying a premium for an intimate & private cabin with a great staff to customer ratio.

We are losing the peace & quiet we paid a huge premium for, when there is a steady stream of Y passengers bumping into aisle seats, coming & going, all the while we are trying to enjoy the experience that we spent good money for. The F/A is hindered by the extra activity in the aisles, in what is already a small cabin to move around in.

Quoting AWACSooner (Thread starter):
But I want to discuss the fact that there's now a great deal of folks in Y who flat-out refuse to adhere to the flight attendant's requests that the front lav is for first class only and proceed to march past drawn curtains and loiter in the F cabin (I've seen this on several occasions flying domestic US first). It doesn't surprise me that there have been FA's who have given up trying to enforce this request,

OK, I'll try to be brief. Last year flying LIH-PDX with AS on a 738. Firstly it was the very first day of the winter schedule, so there was a revised schedule starting that date and I guess AS was short handed at LIH plus they didn't have the new routine down. There were 3 or 4 AS agents in total that we saw, but never more than 2 at any given time.

Anyway at the time we were checking in, it was down to one agent checking people in at the ticketing lobby, he was checking in F passengers one after the other, quickly as possible, however taking no Y passengers until the F check in line was emptied, this caused a woman in the Y line, which was growing quickly, to start getting loud in queue.

The man behind the counter said in a nice but firm voice, that by contract F passengers are given priority when checking in, he went further to say if anyone wanted to avoid this issue in the future, they could pay for F and avoid the wait, she asked how much, he said something like $1800.00 and then it got quieter, then she just mumbled stuff about being too rich to those of us who were in the F line that she had to wait for.

That whole 5h 45m flight she went in and out of the F cabin dozens of times, despite repeated F/A announcements that the forward lav was for F passengers and cockpit crew only. One F/A finally stood at the curtain to F and told her to walk the other way, that AS crew handled the situation with professional grace.

And to all of those who say, that it's O.K. as long as the lav is open, that is B.S. By the time a Y passenger decides to jump the curtain just to see if a lav is open, he/she will stay even if it isn't. They will find a spot to stand by the main door until it opens up, even if one of the other F passengers is waiting in their seat like we are all supposed to do, when the lav is adjacent to the cockpit door.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities.
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 5):
.I paid for the comfort and the privacy of sitting up front. But when there's only 2 lavs in the back for 120+ pax (depending on aircraft), it creates a proverbial Catch-22. IMO, it comes down to airlines enforcing...just like the carry-on debate.
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 9):
F pax pay good money for certain expectations -- it isn't that difficult asking for a private lav for 12-20 pax. If the Y cabin is 80% full on a 739 with a mid-cabin lav like UA, the pax to lav ratio in Y is less than twice the ratio for F. With a ratio that good, there should be no reason to use the lav in F. If you pay a bargain price, you can wait in line in Y as you're supposed to, not skip it and use the F lav instead. It's rude and it's utilizing a service you haven't paid for.

I pay for F, I am one of those passengers airlines like I rarely upgrade, I pay F it's the easiest way to fly any longer, I can't travel as often as I'd like, but when I go, I do it right.

I do pay attention to the announcements onboard and the front lavatory is for first class passengers and crew, they do not want a bunch of people coming and going from near the cockpit & galley, plus they want one lav to remain nice during a 5-6 hour flight for premium customers.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
Screw your phony sense of entitlement

Sorry, it isn't phony at all, it costs quite a bit of money to get that entitlement.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
are not reserved for classes of passengers


Really? Why does every flight attendant making the announcements, on every commercial flight I take, indicate that the forward lavatory(ies) are for the premium cabin I'm sitting in?

Maybe I don't fly the same carriers that you do, therefore my experience may have varied from yours.
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max999
Posts: 1157
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Sorry, but if I'm paying 6+ times the cost of someone else's bargain cheap coach ticket, I expect the privileges of my ticket to be honoured and that includes use of the First class cabin and its amenities..

Want to use the forward lav? Pay for it.
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 9):
F pax pay good money for certain expectations -- it isn't that difficult asking for a private lav for 12-20 pax. If the Y cabin is 80% full on a 739 with a mid-cabin lav like UA, the pax to lav ratio in Y is less than twice the ratio for F. With a ratio that good, there should be no reason to use the lav in F. If you pay a bargain price, you can wait in line in Y as you're supposed to, not skip it and use the F lav instead. It's rude and it's utilizing a service you haven't paid for.
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
Y class pax, paying less for their tickets have accepted that they must queue longer for the toilet, they accept they will not get a three course meal and they accept that they have to pay for bags. That is the service they paid for. It is not discrimination; it is life.
Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 23):
As it is clearly a matter of class divide for you, I suggest you consider travelling only on one class airlines in future, thus allowing those of us who pay for and enjoy First Class the privileges of it in peace and quiet.

I have nothing against bathrooms usage based on cabins, but I'm laughing at the number of times you all used the word 'pay.' The amount of free upgrades and non-revenue passengers will make you rethink the use of this word when it comes to domestic first class in the US. Depending on the flight, time of day, etc - few of those first class passengers may have actually paid for it.
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mats
Posts: 557
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:42 pm

My understanding is that US law strictly forbids passengers from aft cabins from using the first class cabin washroom on inbound flights to the US.

So the sharing of lavatories across cabins is fine with me, but the law gets in the way when it comes to arriving international flights on US carriers.
 
N766UA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):

Sorry, it isn't phony at all, it costs quite a bit of money to get that entitlement.

The reason I think it's phony is because, despite the cost, the actual experience isn't commensurately better, at least domestically speaking. You get a marginally better seat and, often times, not much more. That's why it strikes me as phony. And, like I already said before, many if not most of the F class cabin did not actually pay for it, so the 2 guys that did getting all defensive about it is silly, if not phony.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):

Really? Why does every flight attendant making the announcements, on every commercial flight I take, indicate that the forward lavatory(ies) are for the premium cabin I'm sitting in?
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):

Maybe I don't fly the same carriers that you do, therefore my experience may have varied from yours.

While I have heard that statement in the past, I haven't heard it in a long time. Now I hear "don't congregate" which, in a way, actually approves the usage of the forward lav by anyone, assuming they obey the rules. I would be willing to bet our experiences are different. That said, even that announcement should not *automatically* preclude the use of the forward lav by anyone, so long as they are courteous and discrete, and assuming many of the other per-requisites we've already discussed have been met. Realistically, it's a statement made to discourage.

To be clear, as if I haven't already been, I don't think it's open season on the forward lav. I just think trying to universally bar people from using it is a jerk move, and the attitude that seems to cause people to make that argument is annoying.

[Edited 2014-08-18 06:48:28]
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:48 pm

Again an illustration that airlines are incapable of operating without government interference. Congress WILL pass a law in the not too distant future that all airlines have sufficient bathrooms for all customers.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14165
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 31):
By the way, with regard to the original post, suing the airline? Seriously? How self-absorbed do you have to be to waste a court's time with that one?

Assuming the f/a really battered her (or that there's a legitimate factual question about whether a battery occurred), that strikes me as a legitimate use of the court's time. Do you disagree?

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
By the time a Y passenger decides to jump the curtain just to see if a lav is open, he/she will stay even if it isn't. They will find a spot to stand by the main door until it opens up, even if one of the other F passengers is waiting in their seat like we are all supposed to do, when the lav is adjacent to the cockpit door.

Okay, but isn't the solution there to send the Y passenger back to his seat?
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BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:57 pm

At the end of the day, people will have very different opinions of this.

I see people using the world entitlement in two ways- one way referring to the apparent "eliteness" of F class pax and the other, Y class pax's false sense of entitlement to use the F lavs when, technically they are not allowed to.

I do have to say, that it is somewhat of a mentality on how one looks at the class divide on aircraft. I for one, when flying Y, know that the F lav is not mine to use. I didn't pay for it nor am I expected to use it.

However another opinion would be.... it's a toilet, get over yourself.

These mentalities will vary by country it must be said. Speaking as a dual national (American British) I have to say, you would not find this nearly as frequently on BA then you would on AA. Americans try to pretend the class system does not exist and that everybody should always be treated equally (As is the American mindset) yet the British recognise the the world is a fair place, but within what you pay, and that's the way it is. In a few words, the British feel strongly about etiquette and correctness (hence the nation known for queuing). Americans feel less so. It must be said, of all the places of start a lawsuit about this, it would be in America.

From a loyal, flag waving American Brit!
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 36):
Again an illustration that airlines are incapable of operating without government interference. Congress WILL pass a law in the not too distant future that all airlines have sufficient bathrooms for all customers.

Let's not forget that people go the bathroom all at the same time on a flight- as soon as the seatbelt signs are extinguished and before landing. I assure you, even with 1 bathroom for 80 people, there is enough time for everyone to go on a two hour flight. A lot of the times as well, people just do not want to be sitting.

Why do we not see this on FR or EZY for instance nearly as often?

[Edited 2014-08-18 07:01:06]
 
N766UA
Posts: 8252
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Assuming the f/a really battered her (or that there's a legitimate factual question about whether a battery occurred), that strikes me as a legitimate use of the court's time. Do you disagree?

I didn't see anything about battery. I saw "couple sues AS over first class bathroom," which suggests to me exactly what it says. If the title was "couple sues AS over assault and battery" I'd probably have a different opinion. Neither the title of the article nor the OP said anything about battery, and I can't view videos, so could you fill me in on that one?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14165
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:03 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 40):
I can't view videos, so could you fill me in on that one?

All I know on this point is from the article linked in Reply 3:

Quote:
When DeWitt eventually made it into the restroom, the flight attendant slammed the door shut, the suit states. DeWitt said her shoulder was hurt, and she asked for the flight attendant’s name, Patton said.
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N766UA
Posts: 8252
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
All I know on this point is from the article linked in Reply 3:

From what I can tell, the lawsuit has nothing to do with the lavatory at all. They're suing because they felt embarrassed because they were "wrongfully detained," which seems like a legitimate grievance to me. The lavatory is just sort of ancillary.

I don't really get why the woman didn't just get up and wait for the bathroom, though? She just sat there and let 120 people from coach walk past her?
 
evomutant
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:10 pm

It's a toilet. A depository for urine and feces.

If you really went to get snobby over that, go ahead. But I reserve the right to think you need to get a life.

[Edited 2014-08-18 07:10:34]
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2213
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:18 pm

Everyone who is fixating on the class system snobbery doesn't get it. The bathroom issue was merely the catalyst. The point is the alleged behavior and actions of the flight attendant.
 
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Tugger
Posts: 9571
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Thread starter):
keep this discussion to the topics of pax rights vs. FA's requests.

A request is fine. It does not mean however that I will obey it without question or not challenge if needed. I may make my own request. It is well within my rights as a Y passenger to do so.

If I am near the front of coach and the rear lavs are queued or the service is ongoing and I must use the bathroom I will use the front as needed. I am polite, I often will query the FA first, I will make sure the restroom is free before I move forward, and I am discrete and quick (and I don't pee all over the toilet   ).

No fuss, no muss. Very easy.

Tugg
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RWA380
Posts: 5612
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 35):
While I have heard that statement in the past, I haven't heard it in a long time. Now I hear "don't congregate" which, in a way, actually approves the usage of the forward lav by anyone, assuming they obey the rules

I can assure you that there is not one person I know that pays for F, that wants this issue to contend with on a flight. The several carriers I regularly fly, state the forward lav is for the premium cabin passengers, then they nicely point out where the coach cabin will find the lavs for their use.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 35):
so long as they are courteous and discrete

They aren't however, and once you open pandora's box there is no stopping it, you can't discreetly open a shut curtain, walk past every row of seats, past the F/A, maybe bumping a few seats in and out, leave a stink in the bathroom and tell me that is any level of courtesy or discreteness. The fact there are additional people in what is already an intimate cabin is a loss of value from the expense of my ticket.
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mhockey31091
Posts: 58
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:35 pm

While I understand both sides of the story and have been on both sides of the curtains numerous times, as a first class passenger I do find it annoying when people push past the curtain with their crying babies and go up to the first class bathroom. On the other hand I understand that not waiting to wait in the back in a long line. Short of putting a door blockading the route, I don't see how you can stop this problem from happening.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Thread starter):
Please, no bashing AS...and we all know where this lawsuit will go...

You seem to be the only one to know where the said lawsuit will go.
When I doubt... go running!
 
kdhurst380
Posts: 347
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:52 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:36 pm

I have to say that on the odd occasion I have flown a in a premium cabin on a shorthaul, as a treat, where it's something I've saved up for, it makes me livid to have passengers from 'down the back' push through the curtain and subsequently make those who have paid to sit in that particular cabin wait, one of the further advertised benefits of many premium cabins is the fact that it's quieter and more private, letting people just go straight through ruins that ambience.

I would hasten to add that I'm not a premium class snob, 99% of my flying is in economy cabins, more often than not on low cost airlines, which is why when I fly premium, I expect to be able to receive premium benefits!

Most airlines operating business class cabin have a lower density down the back anyway, so the toilet to passenger ratio is still lower than that of a 189Y 737-800!

[Edited 2014-08-18 07:38:09]

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