Maverick623
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Thread starter):

Obviously, there's two sides to this issue.

There's actually upwards of a dozen sides, especially for these people:

Quoting AT (Reply 72):
This is a frivolous lawsuit, and a waste of time.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
This is the reason why this lawsuit will be thrown out
Quoting N766UA (Reply 40):

I didn't see anything about battery. I saw "couple sues AS over first class bathroom," which suggests to me exactly what it says. If the title was "couple sues AS over assault and battery" I'd probably have a different opinion. Neither the title of the article nor the OP said anything about battery, and I can't view videos, so could you fill me in on that one?

Who can't be bothered to click a link. And for you, as well, for being rather misleading about the premise of the lawsuit.

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 8):
I think the issue is possibly more around the allegation that an airline employee caused intentional injury to a passenger. The airline is not being sued for non-exclusivity of the bathroom. It sounds like they are going to need to get their cheque book out.

Bingo. I'm surprised it only took 8 replies for someone to actually read about and comprehend the situation.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
The reason we have First class is because the people sitting there have paid for it

The vast majority of F passengers in the US have not paid for it with dollars. Most are frequent fliers either getting comped or cashing in miles.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 19):
For anyone who objects to such class divide, travel in future on one class airlines; it's that simple.

One could say the same about those who support such class divide: if you want your own private bathroom, travel on a bizjet.

Please note that I am NOT saying that; just playing a bit of the Devil's advocate.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
The sense elitism from some of the F pax here is borderline disgusting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcSm0ShU8Y8

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
We are a country are veering towards far too much entitlement

Says the guy who thinks he's entitled to sneer at "the lower classes" because he has more zeros in his bank account. "Let's hope the courts make an example of this" bahahahaaa. It's too bad your elitism prohibits you from actually knowing what this lawsuit is about.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 100):
The vast majority of F passengers in the US have not paid for it with dollars. Most are frequent fliers either getting comped or cashing in miles.

Several people have repeated this point (I just grabbed yours because it was last), but I don't understand the relevance. If paying F passengers are entitled not to be "bothered" by Y passengers and we all acknowledge that some people buy F, how is it relevant that others don't buy F?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ipodguy7
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting mrcomet (Reply 95):
Screw the elite. We don't need them.

Without the "elite," airlines wouldn't survive. Ever heard of the 80/20 rule? 20% of the cabin (First class/Business Class) supply 80% of the profit. While not 100% accurate on the bare numbers, the theory behind it obviously holds true. I travel in F/Intl J on paid fare (as in paid by me, not by a company) 90% of the time, get upgraded 10% of the time, and hold AAdvantage Gold for the past three years with a 1.37 Elite Qualifying Points/Miles Ratio. There are many more like me who PAY for F, not just upgrades. If you are flying in first class, you should have exclusive access to your cabin section (including Lavs). Just my 2c

[Edited 2014-08-18 13:33:23]

[Edited 2014-08-18 13:50:27]
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
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shengzhurou
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:32 pm

i flew with ua one time on the 747, i went up there to the door 2 to politely asked for using the door 2 window to take a picture with the wing and engine, the hkg based male fa gave me a mean look an pointed me to go back to the coach cabin ,economy plus where i was seated. in alaska's case, if you are seating near by the fwd lavatory and first row of coach seat... it's just a normal reaction to go to the closest one when you really have to go or holded for a time.
Sheng Zhu Rou
 
strfyr51
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:45 pm

the United 739ER's have a toilet on the left side aft of the 1st class curtain. Where i should be.
 
AT
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:48 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
Several people have repeated this point (I just grabbed yours because it was last), but I don't understand the relevance. If paying F passengers are entitled not to be "bothered" by Y passengers and we all acknowledge that some people buy F, how is it relevant that others don't buy F?

I agree with you that functionally there is no distinction. But the argument used in a number of posts above is that F class passengers have paid x, THEREFORE they deserve y; the key being the 'therefore. A majority of F class passengers are business travelers (not paying a cent of their own $), or upgrades (here one can make a case that they ARE paying, just with miles, rather than cash).

Ultimately this is all an academic argument, as once on board, airlines differentiate passengers by class of service; not by the actual cost or fare bucket they were booked in.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:54 pm

I'm waiting for the ULCC model to start charging a pay-to0use blue juice or Hazmat disposal fee. For those of you who were around in the 1970's crawling under is not a option.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 100):
The vast majority of F passengers in the US have not paid for it with dollars. Most are frequent fliers either getting comped or cashing in miles.

Which they have paid for in dollars. So whether they have paid for the F seat in dollars, or they have earned hundreds of thousands of miles paid for in dollars ... the result is the same ... that F seat was not "free".
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:28 pm

To turn things around somewhat, I recall that many NW DC-9s didn't even have an F class lavatory for their first few years with NW since they were inherited from various regional carriers with one-class service, although NW installed F class seats when the aircraft were acquired. Some years later NW updated the DC-9 cabins which included installation of an F class lavatory on the aircraft that didn't have one.

Until then F class passengers had to walk to the rear of the aircraft and wait their turn with all the Y passengers. I remember a couple of NW DC-9-30 flights in F in the early 1990s and being surprised to discover that the only lavatories were at the rear.
 
hh65man
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:33 pm

Hum, makes me wonder how many times a F passenger has discovered their toilet/s occupied then rambled to the back of the plane to use the Y toilet. If my memory serves me correctly I've seen it happen on a few occasions.....
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 107):
Which they have paid for in dollars.

Not always. Most miles are from corporate travel used for upgrades on personal travel. Either way very few in premium cabin pay from their own pocket. This will be fixed to certain extent as future miles will be based on fare paid.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:38 pm

I always hear the announcement "it's a FAA regulation" to use the lavs assigned in your class. Is this the real deal? Is it an FAR? That's all I want to know.

[Edited 2014-08-18 15:02:57]
 
Mir
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 99):
My take is this: yes, First Class passengers are entitled to better treatment. But I'm not sure that preferential access to a toilet should be included in that.

Preferential access should be. But not absolutely exclusive access.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ikramerica
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
You don't pay for a bathroom. You pay for seat, you pay for food, you pay for service.

Says who? You are choosing to remove one aspect from the list of things you pay for without giving any justification.

You DO pay for the privacy of F/J and part of that is the bathroom. On many international carriers, the bathrooms in these cabins are bigger and nicer and on some, tidied after every use.

And it makes a difference. When I flew QF F transpac, the 747 bathroom was very nicely appointed, kept very clean, and I never had to step in puddles of urine even toward the end of the flight like happens in Y.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
N867DA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 112):
Quoting AT (Reply 99):
My take is this: yes, First Class passengers are entitled to better treatment. But I'm not sure that preferential access to a toilet should be included in that.

Preferential access should be. But not absolutely exclusive access.

-Mir

  

This is literally the only proper answer to this issue.

If someone has urgently go to the bathroom and there is a line for other lavs and/or carts in the way the only choices are to do the job in the seat and pants or cut up to F. I would bet that 99% of people understand that the F lav is for F pax, unless an emergency comes up.

Or maybe we should seat the smelly person with poo-poo pants in F!   
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
reality
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:42 pm

"Thank you for voting!

"The flight attendant: Coach passengers need the restroom, too. It's doubtful she meant to hurt Jessica DeWitt with the door. 32.54% (1,254 votes)


"The plaintiffs: They had a right to be upset. And having them taken into custody is way over the top. 25.66% (989 votes)


"Neither: Both sides contributed to the problem. 14.12% (544 votes)


"I don't know: It's tough to tell because we've only heard from the plaintiffs. 28% (1,067 votes)


"Total Votes: 3,854"

From:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Alaska Airlines restroom-use squabble leads to wrongful detainment, $11,500 lawsuit claims
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i..._restroom_use_on.html#incart_river

[Edited 2014-08-18 15:44:48]
 
homer787
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:47 pm

As someone who exclusively PAYS to fly domestic F class here is what I have to say to Y class passengers:

1 Use your cabin's toilet.
2 Keep your bags out of my overhead bin.
3 Don't get in line to board the plane with your zone 5 ticket when they are calling zone 1.
4 My headrest is not your handrail.
5 Pick up your carry on. Guess what? The aisle gets narrower behind the curtain, and if you can't control it now you are in a lot of trouble.
6 Don't expect your guitar, or other stupid oversized item to have a home on board the aircraft unless you purchase a seat for it.

If you don't like the elitism, fly SW, F9, B6, etc.

FLAME ON!
 
neutronstar73
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):

Last I checked, I didn't see one. You make a very good and pertinent point. No where in there does it say "if you paid for Y, don't even think about going forward to use the F cabin lavatory"

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
do have to say that, as an American citizen having lived in the USA for quite a while and now living in the UK, this is nothing short of typical American anti-elitism that is an unfortunate trend in our society.

Anti-elitism? WTF are you on about? I guess you want a caste society then. It's a damn bathroom on the plane, not your personal space. It's not about anti-elitism, it's about convenience and opportunity. It makes no damn sense to have a long queue at the economy lavatory when the F-cabin is sitting idle.

Then again, you probably feel that sine you drive an expensive car, you are entitled to "extra" privileges on the road.
 
reality
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 111):
I always hear the announcement "it's a FAA regulation" to use the lavs assigned in your class. Is this the real deal? Is it an FAR? That's all I want to know.

Me too. No one knows the answer? On A-net?/)(*&%!!
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting homer787 (Reply 116):
If you don't like the elitism, fly SW, F9, B6, etc.

Not a huge fan of elitism. Or arrogance. If you think you're better than other people and deserve to be treated as a better human because of the money you've paid for something, you're entitled to that opinion. It doesn't, however, change of my opinion of what sort of person you are.
 
32andBelow
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 111):

I always hear the announcement "it's a FAA regulation" to use the lavs assigned in your class. Is this the real deal? Is it an FAR? That's all I want to know.

No they say per FAA regulation no line may form in front of the cockpit
 
eal46859
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:17 pm

Ok... Lets review for a second...assume that they paid for FC without any discount... and the folks wanting to use the lav
were not just going up there one at a time, but milling around waiting in the aisle for their turn, in and around the
passenger seating area near the front of FC..so is it ok then to allow a line of people to wait standing around in FC?
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 99):
My take is this: yes, First Class passengers are entitled to better treatment. But I'm not sure that preferential access to a toilet should be included in that.

What many F fliers are saying here, without actually saying it, is that if you get an upset stomach and there's a queue in ecomony, they'd rather you s**t yourself in the Y aisle rather than bring your common, smelly self into their special, expensive, exclusive world. If I knew that the F cabin was filled with these people on my next flight, I'd not only use "their" bathroom, but I'd hold in farts especially to cropdust their seats on the way up there.
 
hz747300
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:27 pm

I remember flying from JFK to PHX on a DL 738. I've done the route a few times on the visit the family circuit when we go home. One time, it was cheap enough to F so we did. I was not appalled by the use of the bathroom by Y passengers, mainly because I was asleep. Historically, I've found too, that whether Y or F, most people leave the bathroom in ok condition and very few people #2 on a plane anymore.

But what appalled me on this trip, was as soon as the plane pulled in at the gate, a family of six, Mom, Dad, and four sons, from what seemed to be 15 to 8 or 9, rushed first class and pushed their way to front door to get off first. The only bag I saw with any of them was the mom had a purse. Funny enough, we saw them again waiting at the baggage claim, and that's when I realised a priority bag tag in domestic DL means nothing. Everyone has to wait for an hour....
Keep on truckin'...
 
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CALTECH
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:33 pm

Just to throw it out there, the FWD Lav is considered a security issue in certain situations. For somewhat obvious reasons, they do not want people loitering around the cockpit door area. Much easier to deal with 1st Class passengers who usually stay in their seat until the FWD Lav is unoccupied then having to deal with a bunch of coach passengers standing in the aisle. It will not be a FAA FAR, but more of a FAA Guidance.


http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6239
Crew Training

In January, the FAA issued new guidance for training crew members in dealing with potential threats, especially hijackings.

•The new guidance represents a shift in strategy from passive to active resistance by crewmembers.
•Because it contains sensitive security information, the actual training guidance cannot be made public. However, it is possible to highlight some general aspects of the FAA’s guidance:
◦The aircraft captain should include any securityinformation specific to the flight or to the airline during the preflight crew briefing.
◦Any passenger disturbance, even those seemingly harmless, should be considered suspicious; it could be a diversion for other more serious acts.
◦In a threat situation, crewmembers must act as a team. If a threat arises, the cabin crew and flight crew must communicate in clear, concise, plain English.
◦In any suspected or actual hijack attempt, the flight crew should land the airplane as soon as possible to minimize the time hijackers would have to commandeer the aircraft and use it as a weapon of mass destruction.
•The new FAA guidance emphasizes that updated training is a responsibility shared by the agency, the carrier and the carrier’s employees. Training shouldchange as new threats are identified.
You are here.
 
ipodguy7
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 122):
What many F fliers are saying here, without actually saying it, is that if you get an upset stomach and there's a queue in ecomony, they'd rather you s**t yourself in the Y aisle rather than bring your common, smelly self into their special, expensive, exclusive world. If I knew that the F cabin was filled with these people on my next flight, I'd not only use "their" bathroom, but I'd hold in farts especially to cropdust their seats on the way up there.

Ahh a Dane with a Jante attitude, not surprised. In most parts of the world, success and wealth is not as villified as it is Scandinavia.
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
N867DA
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:40 pm

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 125):
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 122):
What many F fliers are saying here, without actually saying it, is that if you get an upset stomach and there's a queue in ecomony, they'd rather you s**t yourself in the Y aisle rather than bring your common, smelly self into their special, expensive, exclusive world. If I knew that the F cabin was filled with these people on my next flight, I'd not only use "their" bathroom, but I'd hold in farts especially to cropdust their seats on the way up there.

Ahh a Dane with a Jante attitude, not surprised. In most parts of the world, success and wealth is not as villified as it is Scandinavia.

Actually, he is not vilifying success so much as promoting hygiene for all passengers who happen to be in an enclosed area for several hours. Read the post again.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
AT
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting homer787 (Reply 116):
As someone who exclusively PAYS to fly domestic F class here is what I have to say to Y class passengers:

1 Use your cabin's toilet.
2 Keep your bags out of my overhead bin.
3 Don't get in line to board the plane with your zone 5 ticket when they are calling zone 1.
4 My headrest is not your handrail.
5 Pick up your carry on. Guess what? The aisle gets narrower behind the curtain, and if you can't control it now you are in a lot of trouble.
6 Don't expect your guitar, or other stupid oversized item to have a home on board the aircraft unless you purchase a seat for it.

If you don't like the elitism, fly SW, F9, B6, etc.

FLAME ON!

Ouch-- how about an alternative view: if the thought a mere mortal Y class passenger passing by you en route to her/his seat is so problematic, why don't you fly by private jet where you won't have to deal with them? I'd like to see some of the people complaining here about their toilet exclusivity being violated survive a five, let alone 15 hour flight in coach.

Most people don't have a choice- they are compelled to fly Y. If I were blessed enough to afford to fly First, I would feel grateful, enjoy the experience, and not belittle those who can't.
 
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DexSwart
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:46 pm

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 125):
Ahh a Dane with a Jante attitude, not surprised. In most parts of the world, success and wealth is not as villified as it is Scandinavia.

Rude, but ok.

As for this, I definitely understand that the FAA sees this as a security risk. Excuse my privilege upbringing here, but the issue isn't "commoners" or whatever else Y passengers were called on this thread (haha). As a student, I fly Y almost all of the time. I don't have an issue here in Australia with using the lavs, even on five hour cross country flights on narrowbodies.

I think the actual issue is the airlines removing access to passengers in Y to their dedicated bathrooms. That's the actual issue. The lawsuit should be against the airlines (or airline, in the case of AS.) Reducing the number of available lavatories.

If you pay (through miles, business or cash) to use F (or J everywhere else), you deserve access to your own lavatory.

If you're at a nice restaurant, having a meal, and randoms just wander in to use the toilets, you're gonna get annoyed. There is a public bathroom available, but it's further than the restaurants.

It just doesn't work.  twocents 

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 122):
upset stomach and there's a queue in ecomony, they'd rather you s**t yourself in the Y aisle

.

If you feel an upset stomach coming on, you get up and make your way to the toilet.

You don't sit there until you're about to crap yourself to dart over. It's common sense.

[Edited 2014-08-18 16:48:06]
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
seat38a
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:30 am

Bring back those HEAVY / THICK curtains! This used to be less of a problem before they removed those curtains with none or that see through crap. Security yeah yeah yeah but really, they can probably work something better out with video camera's or something like opening it up only when the cockpit door needs to be opened etc.. Rest of the world still uses the thick heavy curtains maybe its time we brought it back. It used to be the barrier that no one dared to cross, now its a free for all. If you crossed it, the FA would imediately send you back.
 
eastern747
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:19 am

The lav in the front of the aircraft is a lav for the aircraft. Domestic first is a joke, and what pisses me off is most people up there are UPGRADES. Airlines have taken lavs, ovens, and galleys out for more seats. This whole blog is also a joke. Unless the airlines put a door in the separation, then that lave is open to the whole aircraft.......Oh hey, the Captain has to pee....should he go to the rear lav?
 
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DexSwart
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting seat38a (Reply 129):
This used to be less of a problem before they removed those curtains with none or that see through crap.

This seems to be an American issue. Sorry for putting it so bluntly. VA just has a "thou shall not pass" red velvet rope in between the two cabins and it does the job. At least from what I've seen.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
spacecadet
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 119):
If you think you're better than other people and deserve to be treated as a better human because of the money you've paid for something, you're entitled to that opinion.

It's not an opinion; it's the system we've set up. If an airline has first class, it's inviting people to pay more to be treated better. Your beef is with the airline, not the people willing and able to pay.

Fly airlines without a first class then, if you believe everybody should be treated equally.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Skydrol
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:46 am

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 94):
I've thought about this a lot on Air Canada Embraer 190 flights across Canada.
I mention the Embraer 190 because it has an exceptionally high seat to lavatory ratio in Economy and flies relatively long transcontinental flights.
Embraer 190 = 88
Airbus A319 = 53 or 59
Airbus A330 = 38

The Embraer with that 88 Y pax / lav layout should not be allowed in the air. It is the most pathetic airplane ever for having Y passengers queued at the rear the entire flight, and many times five deep.
Even with an endless queue for the single rear Y lav, I have witnessed FAs turn Y pax back on many occasions if they attempt to invade royalty to access the gold-plated throne reserved for the delicate by-products produced by 8 very special people.
A319 proves it is possible to have a much better ratio in a narrow body airplane, even though it still doesn't match the comfort level of the A330 or B777.

Even small airplanes such as Dash 8 are 37:1, and Beech 1900D 18:1... don't believe Y class passengers can get it any better than B1900D with 1 lav for 18 pax.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
prebennorholm
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
Such squabbles are going to become more and more frequent as airlines add seats and remove lavatories.

That is the whole issue, no more, no less. Optimists among us may assume that this trend will be reversed due to normal competition rules. Or maybe the regulators in some countries will step in?

A few days ago I talked to my neighbor over the hedge. He looked like a disaster, like a new client for a nursing home. I asked "jet lag?" knowing that he had just returned from a holiday in the US.

He told me that it was much worse than that. He had planned for a little rest on the 9 hours TATL night flight back home, but he got seated at the aisle near the lav and got rubbed on his shoulder all 9 hours by a constant queue varying from half a dozen to well over a dozen all way.

He said that I should tell everybody to never use X airline because their lav configuration is totally inadequade.

Maybe in a couple of years the airlines will tell us in their adverts: "We have X number of lavs on our planes so you won't risk the mother of all disasters when you travel with us".

Am I too optimistic? Maybe. Hopefully not.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
26point2
Posts: 1082
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 2):
Quoting VC10er (Reply 6):

You and all the rest sound so elitist and surely think of yourselves as such. Lighten up dudes. Can't we all just get along and share you f...ing toilet when we need?
 
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DexSwart
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:08 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:57 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 135):
Can't we all just get along and share you f...ing toilet when we need?

Alas, the days of the commune have ended, and people pay for everything. If you pay more, you expect more.

Following on from that, why don't people just waltz into the lounges? Surely those elitists don't need all those private toilets and showers! And priority boarding!

It's a cycle. It'll never end.

I just grabbed your post as it was easiest, this wasn't directed at you completely.  

[Edited 2014-08-18 19:00:57]

[Edited 2014-08-18 19:01:37]
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4714
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
Several people have repeated this point (I just grabbed yours because it was last), but I don't understand the relevance. If paying F passengers are entitled not to be "bothered" by Y passengers and we all acknowledge that some people buy F, how is it relevant that others don't buy F?

As far as my post was concerned, I was pointing out the error in the other poster's statement.

If you're sitting in F, you should be entitled to whatever benefits the AIRLINE markets in that cabin, regardless of how you got there. How people "pay" for F is and the relative merits of it are best left to the forum that Flyers Talk in.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 111):
I always hear the announcement "it's a FAA regulation" to use the lavs assigned in your class. Is this the real deal? Is it an FAR? That's all I want to know.
Quoting reality (Reply 118):

Me too. No one knows the answer? On A-net?/)(*&%!!

There is no FAA regulation that you must use the lavs in your assigned cabin.

However, every airline has their own OpsSpecs, all of which state that passengers are not allowed to congregate in the galleys or near the flight deck door. OpsSpecs are approved by the FAA, and carry the weight of a federal regulation.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
26point2
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:06 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 136):

Perhaps. But in America they don't pay more .....they get upgrades and act as though they payed more.

To qualify, I am a corporate pilot and spend as little time travelliing commercial as possible (thankfully) but did fly an HA KSJC-PHOG-PHKO trip today. Hated it. I don't get frequent flyer miles because I loathe airline travel and refuse to play their game but I do spend half my life at Marriott hotels and they take care of me but I would never presume to stop someone from using the loo in "my" lounge because "I earned it".

[Edited 2014-08-18 19:14:15]
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7020
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 138):
...in America they don't pay more .....they get upgrades and act as though they payed more.

Yup, and not just in America. This issue is to significant degree related to FF schemes. The airlines want to offer something extra to some precious metal card holders (PMCHs). But since they really have nothing special to offer, and those PNCHs are normal people with no special needs who just want a fairly comfortable transport from A to B, then the airlines need to make travel for non-PMCHs artificially uncomfortable to create a difference. One of those artificial differences is to have a too high Y-pax to Y-lav ratio.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 117):
Anti-elitism? WTF are you on about? I guess you want a caste society then. It's a damn bathroom on the plane, not your personal space. It's not about anti-elitism, it's about convenience and opportunity. It makes no damn sense to have a long queue at the economy lavatory when the F-cabin is sitting idle.

Yes, anti-elitism. It is a bathroom dedicated to the use of first class passengers. What is so hard to accept about that?

Flying is not about convenience and opportunity. We all know that flying in economy is always terrible, but we get what we pay for. It makes perfect sense in my mind for a Y pax to wait for his lav to become free. The F lav is reserved for the use of F pax and when they want to use it, they can, thankful with the knowledge that it is stocked with upgraded amenities and a reduced pax load for the washroom.

Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Which is all well and good, but runs up against the issue of practicality. Let's say I'm flying DL, and I'm on a 739. I'm in row 11 (2nd row of Y cabin), the lavs are in the very back at row 37. The drinks carts are at row 18 at the moment, and moving toward the rear at the normal slow drinks service pace. I'll wait if I can, but if I've simply got to use the toilet right then and there, I'm going to have to go use the one in the F cabin, since that's the only one I can get to at the time. And I will, and if some people in F get pissy about that then that's their problem. We're all human, and it's not asking a lot to let someone use a bathroom when they really need to, even if they're not really supposed to. I'll be nice about it, and I'll apologize to the FAs, but I will be using that toilet.

Like I said, I have no problem with pax asking the cabin crew to use a lav they are not entitled to. Common sense (with respect for the rules) and discretion should always take place, but it should not be a god given right and should be considered as a courtesy if they allow you to break procedure. I refer you to what I said earlier:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 24):
Yes, like you said, discretion should be used by the cabin crew, and with their permission I agree, the use of the forward toilet can be allowed for Y pax, but it should be an exception in rare circumstances. A queue in the back loo should not discourage you from going back there and waiting.

If you approached a checkin desk for Y-class that was packed; it would be most improper to go to the First class checkin area. Now, if you were going to miss your flight because you were late checking in, a member of staff may approach you and offer you to use the F class checkin area as a courtesy; but I for one, would not feel it appropriate at all for me to use that if I was not entitled to do so.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 100):
The vast majority of F passengers in the US have not paid for it with dollars. Most are frequent fliers either getting comped or cashing in miles.

Pax with upgrades have paid for it in some way. Whether that is because of their FF programmes or a paid- F ticket.

Also, why are we restricting this debate to the USA? I'll tell you if I were travelling BA WT+ and tried to use the CW washrooms (which are nearer) the cabin crew would be very quick to put me in my place and send me back a cabin to WT to use their washrooms. Why? Because I'm not entitled to use the CW washrooms.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 100):
Says the guy who thinks he's entitled to sneer at "the lower classes" because he has more zeros in his bank account. "Let's hope the courts make an example of this" bahahahaaa. It's too bad your elitism prohibits you from actually knowing what this lawsuit is about.

Firstly, I would like to point out that I fly economy for a considerable portion of my flights. I am a student at university that travels for my degree. I do not believe in lower forms of human beings and I do not think we like in 1912. I do however, know my place. I will never take something I have not paid for, full stop. The fact of the matter is, is that we live in a world with classes (Whether Americans accept that or not is another debate entirely). We have F class on aircraft because people pay extra for privileges and service.

When I fly economy, I do not have the privilege of availing myself of any of the premium services, and I know this. I have not paid for it. I'm not going to go to the F class checkin desk because the Y class one is full. I'm not going to go through Fast track at security. I'm not going to go and take food from the higher classes. I fail to see why this is a debate? You have not paid for the privilege of having a lav with a lower pax count and the added amenities there are in there. There are usually two lavs dedicate to Y and I know to use those. If that involves queuing, tough for me. I respect rules and etiquette. Some people seem to think that they do not have to because they deem it to be something that they SHOULD be entitled to, but in fact, are not. The curtain/rope is there for a reason.


Like I said, why limit this discussion to US airlines? Why do we not hear things about this on FR, EZY, EI, IB, BA? Like I said, I would be whipped back into my seat if i tried this on a BA LH flight, AF LH flight etc...
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 138):
But in America they don't pay more .....they get upgrades and act as though they payed more.

That is irrelevant. For whatever reason, that person is entitled to sit in the F class section and has full F class rights/privileges. They have paid for it in some way or another, I can assure you.
 
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DexSwart
Posts: 745
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 138):
I would never presume to stop someone from using the loo in "my" lounge because "I earned it".

That's a very elitist thing to say.

If you travel in the class, you're entitled to it's perks.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 138):
an HA KSJC-PHOG-PHKO trip today. Hated it.

Oh no. You had to descend through the bowels of hell to fly commercial. Anything but that. It's not like most of the world who travels doesn't.

Not to discount your opinion, but try not to be so biased. All I really got out of your post was "I don't care. I'm not bothered by the likes of peasants flying on commercials. Most of them don't pay anyway! they don't deserve the perks airlines advertise."
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:49 am

Gotta wonder how many posters here have even bothered to read the article linked to the original message. From what I read and hear, the suit is NOT about the lav use. It's about the battery the passenger suffered when the FA slammed the door.

However, it was obviously an exceptionally slow news day! I can't believe a TV station would actually call in two "experts" to discuss the incident!
 
seat38a
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:29 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 138):
Perhaps. But in America they don't pay more .....they get upgrades and act as though they payed more.

Thanks for this generalization. Maybe I should ask for a refund on the ticket I paid for in $$$$ for my trip in October? Obviously I'm the sucker here for PAYING $$$$ for the bigger seats up front.
 
crj900lr
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting homer787 (Reply 116):
As someone who exclusively PAYS to fly domestic F class here is what I have to say to Y class passengers:

That's an awful lot of rules you are telling the Y class passengers but I guess when you pay and fly 1st class once a year like you do it gives you the right to do this. You might want to see the whole picture before you post things like that. If someone has a medical condition (diabetes, bladder issue, kidney problems) you take the first open lav that is available weather its in F or Y. I guarantee if you have a medical condition they will have no objections to you using the F lav if its open.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting copter808 (Reply 143):
However, it was obviously an exceptionally slow news day! I can't believe a TV station would actually call in two "experts" to discuss the incident!

I must agree with you there! I think AS has no case for abuse onboard! The debate started because this women felt entitled to use the F class lav, proceeded to go to it after the cabin crew told them no, got near the lav door and was slammed shut with it!
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:05 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 137):
If you're sitting in F, you should be entitled to whatever benefits the AIRLINE markets in that cabin, regardless of how you got there. How people "pay" for F is and the relative merits of it are best left to the forum that Flyers Talk in.

I've never seen a US-based airline market a private bathroom to First Class passengers, although most have policies requesting that passengers attempt to use the restroom in the cabin they're ticketed in.

The problem is that most flights go out nearly full, and in addition to the passengers, the flight crew also use the rooms. Most medium-sized aircraft only have three bathrooms, including one in First -- this means that 150-160 people only have two bathrooms. Obviously this can be problematic. The Flyers who Talk take the position that 'if you're in coach, poop your pants before using the first class rest room, as I'm entitled and it's not my problem there's insufficient restrooms in the back.' If they paid full-fare for their tickets, I'd be empathetic toward this argument... but heck, when they don't get upgraded, guess which bathroom they're using if the ones in the back are occupied?

I recently flew a full DL 738 from CUN-DTW, seated in the first row of Economy Comfort. I had gotten travelers diarrhea the last few days of my vacation and shortly after takeoff nature called. But the service carts were blocking me from making the coach restrooms, and I couldn't wait 30+ minutes, so I used the First bathroom.

Bottom line: when nature calls... especially when you don't know the health of the people around you (IBS, etc.)
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 133):
don't believe Y class passengers can get it any better than B1900D with 1 lav for 18 pax.

Many Beech 1900s have no lavatory.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting copter808 (Reply 143):

Gotta wonder how many posters here have even bothered to read the article linked to the original message. From what I read and hear, the suit is NOT about the lav use. It's about the battery the passenger suffered when the FA slammed the door.

However, it was obviously an exceptionally slow news day! I can't believe a TV station would actually call in two "experts" to discuss the incident!

I think the lawsuit is irrelevant and least interesting of this discussion. Clearly, the tangent topic struck a nerve.

It is a slow news day indeed. Our local news (in NYC) opened with a story of an unknown runway model who was missing and then found in a hospital.

Quoting AT (Reply 127):

Most people don't have a choice- they are compelled to fly Y. If I were blessed enough to afford to fly First, I would feel grateful, enjoy the experience, and not belittle those who can't.

That would be my feeling as well.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 116):
As someone who exclusively PAYS to fly domestic F class here is what I have to say to Y class passengers:

I have no problem with people flying first, either on their own dime or by upgrade, and no problem with a higher standard of service and access. Even restrooms, which I'd only ask to use if really desperate if I'm flying in coach/economy. I've flown first class just once in my life, a rebooking from a mechanical cancellation. I was polite, and appreciative. I've assumed all these years that most of the people I pass in FC are similar, appreciative. I'm hoping that the dominant opinion expressed by FC passengers on this thread is an aberration of humanity, and that most people in first are regular people, perhaps affluent, but regular, and not by nature rude and obnoxious. I may be wrong, if Homer787 here is typical.

-Rampart

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