Carfield
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:19 am

Just want to clarify - the passengers suing Alaska Airlines are in first class. They are not suing Alaska Airlines for allowing coach passengers to use the first class bathroom. They are suing Alaska Airlines for the first class F/A's slamming the lavatory door, which hurt the woman, and according to FOX News clip, the medical treatment is being validated and maybe that's why Alaska Airlines tried to settled it by paying the medical expenses in the first place. I also don't think this couple is really suing for purely financial gain, so Alaska Airlines is going to face a tricky situation. On one hand, it wants to settle, like those two legal advisors stated on FOX News Clip, as the damage to Alaska Airlines brand will be severe if this will go on trial. $11,000 is nothing, compared to the possible legal costs and damage to the brand. At the same time, it also wants to stand by its employees and Alaska Airlines is trying to portray itself as a caring company for its employees. If Alaska settles, it sort of implies the F/A on that flight was on a bit of a power trip, and that might invite more legal troubles in the future for Alaska and other US airlines.

I have actually been on flights, when the F/As told the coach passengers to stand behind the curtain and specifically tell them that first class passengers have preferred access to the forward lavatory. There were even stricter F/As, who specifically instruct first class passengers not to stand near the entrance door too, and tell them to wait in the seats till the lavatory is vacant. S/he will call on the passenger when the restroom is ready. I really don't think most first class passengers are elitists or find coach passengers disgusting. However, you will feel really annoyed if there is constant stream of people going up and down the aisle too, especially when the service is finished, and people bumping into your shoulders all the time is not fun. One of the benefits on flying first class is the lower passenger to bathroom ratio, so you don't have to wait long if you need to use the facility.

I personally always use the lavatory designated in my cabin, and always use the bathroom before boarding so I won't need to visit the facility at all during short flights and at least the first 90 minutes of the flight when service is going on. Even on mono class cabin, I tend to use the bathroom in the aft especially F/As say don't form a line in the front of the cabin. It is just common courtesy.

We will see how Alaska Airlines plans to settle this lawsuit after this news makes it beyond local.

Carfield

[Edited 2014-08-18 21:23:23]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 122):
What many F fliers are saying here, without actually saying it, is that if you get an upset stomach and there's a queue in ecomony, they'd rather you s**t yourself in the Y aisle rather than bring your common, smelly self into their special, expensive, exclusive world. If I knew that the F cabin was filled with these people on my next flight, I'd not only use "their" bathroom, but I'd hold in farts especially to cropdust their seats on the way up there.

I think for the most part you went way beyond what most people actually are saying. And disgustingly so.

Quoting seat38a (Reply 129):






Bring back those HEAVY / THICK curtains!

They worked pretty well in World War Z.....well, for awhile.

Quoting seat38a (Reply 144):
Maybe I should ask for a refund on the ticket I paid for in $$$$ for my trip in October? Obviously I'm the sucker here for PAYING $$$$ for the bigger seats up front.

I think to a degree this is one of the rubs for First Class passengers. Often times in life (in America anyhow) you spend a lot of money for something only to see other people get access or privilege to for free. I had a conversation today with one person discussing that we are sending our daughter off to college this week, paid for entirely on money we have saved. They then informed me that because of their income/status/whatever that the state was paying for their schooling, including giving them $5000 in spending money, to the tune of $9000. Then I was later talking with someone else about my son getting his [$5000] braces off, paid for with money that we saved. Again, this person said that they were getting their daughter braces paid for by the state. That's $16,000 in expenses that we paid for that others were getting given to them for free, and it got me thinking "Am I the stupid one? The one who doesn't get it?" lol

Anyhow, I would imagine most people understand "desperate times call for desperate measures", but as someone who doesn't fly first class, if I were up there I'd want the experience that I am paying for, including the quiet, less-interrupted cabin environment. If someone got permission to use the bathroom, that's great, but there should at some point be a respect for the person who through dollars or miles has paid for the better experience.

I don't think that's elitist, and I think some of the pushback that I might give would come from seeing how people nowadays want something for nothing, and are not bothered at all to take advantage of others.

Just my two cents.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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compensateme
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:38 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 152):
Anyhow, I would imagine most people understand "desperate times call for desperate measures", but as someone who doesn't fly first class, if I were up there I'd want the experience that I am paying for, including the quiet, less-interrupted cabin environment. If someone got permission to use the bathroom, that's great, but there should at some point be a respect for the person who through dollars or miles has paid for the better experience.

Most narrowbody aircraft active since the 1980s have had bathrooms in the front & rear of the aircraft (the 757 being the exception). It was fairly commonplace for coach passengers seated near the front of the aircraft to use the First Class restroom -- this didn't become a big deal until the 2000s, when forums like FT became mainstream among so-called entitled frequent travelers, who then collectively voiced their displeasure of such practice.

I'm all for First Class passengers having their own private bathroom, but I'm also realistic. Many midsize aircraft carry up to 170 passengers and crew but only 3 bathrooms. When nature calls, nature calls. In the 1980s, many 757 had 5 bathrooms -- and while they carried about 180 people, load factors were significantly lower. If those conditions prevailed today, sure, it'd make sense.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 130):
The lav in the front of the aircraft is a lav for the aircraft. Domestic first is a joke, and what pisses me off is most people up there are UPGRADES.

Is that the problem?

There might be upgraded passengers in F class? So all of F class needs to be treated like dirt?

These day the only people being awarded domestic upgrades are Platinum flyers. And those flyers have more than paid for their upgrades with the amount of flying they've done and the money they've spent buying tickets.
 
opethfan
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 am

Guys, this is simple. It's called "discretion" and "common sense." 1/70 Y pax washrooms full? What's more inconvenient for everyone on board, crew or guests - a biohazard accident requiring diversion or a pleb shitting in the fancier hole in the ground?
 
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thebatman
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:12 am

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
The fact of the matter is that all people are not equal on aircraft. We do not live in a communist regime where everyone gets the same service. The reason we have First class is because the people sitting there have paid for it and its associated benefits; this in most cases reserves the forward loo for F class pax.
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
We are a country are veering towards far too much entitlement that has put a lot of countries in the terrible positions they are in today.

I couldn't agree more! You are 100% right and have just been added to my "respected user" list. This whole philosophy of "everyone gets a trophy" is what's killing this country. You want F class perks? BUY THE [email protected]#N TICKET. Otherwise, patiently wait your turn like everyone else.
Aircraft mechanics - because pilots need heroes too!
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 153):
It was fairly commonplace for coach passengers seated near the front of the aircraft to use the First Class restroom -- this didn't become a big deal until the 2000s

  

I respectfully disagree; I remember even as a kid flying in F in the mid 70s the flight attendants up front directing traffic back to the main cabin lavs. It certainly continued into the 80s, 90s, and beyond; not just a 2000s problem.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jtl11968
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:58 am

The people sitting in F these days don't pay anything for their seats except the tax. It's all award travel. So the argument being that Joe Blow paid six times more than the Y pax is irrelevant. Maybe Joe has bought the $99 seat more often and accrued enough miles to treat himself to the use of the F loo but he, most likely, never paid for a full fare ticket in Y or F.
 
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AirAfreak
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:00 am

Here are a few thoughts I would like to share:


+ We live in a society where generally, an individual can make choices. (I said "generally").

+ If your employer flies you in Economy, choose to pay the difference out-of-pocket for a seat in First Class. So, here it goes again, we can make our own choices of how we fly and with whom we fly.

+ If you desire First Class and want a 100% guarantee for exclusive-use of a lavatory, then CHARTER your own flight. Otherwise, deal with it. There are bigger fish to fry.

+ Look up NetJets, Marquis, Delta AirElite, etc... if you cannot afford to Charter, then please remain silent and accept your CHOICE of choosing public transportation and therefore, a SHARED PUBLIC SPACE.

+ PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION includes commercial airline travel, shared mini-van services, trains, subways, ... So guess what? There will that 2% chance of a passenger in a different ticketed-cabin using a different lavatory.

+ Regarding all of these attacks I keep reading throughout these threads: One should not make such generalizations of fellow forum members always being upgraded as payment for a First Class Seat.

+ I would like to understand how an airliners.net member knows exactly who paid for their First Class Seat versus a Complimentary Status Upgrade? If you do know how a member "paid" for their seat, then you are a stalker and a weirdo.

+ Not all airliners.net forum members are doing sole bookings in higher Y fare categories for an upgrade.

+ Not all passengers seated in the First Class Cabin are bad human beings.

+ Not all passengers seated in the Economy Class Cabin are bad human beings.

+ Some members on this forum pay out-of-pocket/un-reimbursed First Class Travel (more than once). This is directed at the fellow forum member who claimed another fellow forum member only flew once a year in paid First Class. I think it was Regina George, but it could have been Gretchen Wiener. (Google it if you don't know)

+ Since February 2014, I have spent $26,428.00 of my own personal money for (6 Personal Roundtrips) First Class Travel. (I feel the need to mention this as I have read many passing judgments throughout this thread thus far). I've spent far more time in Coach in my twenties. Thank goodness for our thirties to right the wrongs of our youth!

+ If someone needs a First Class lavatory, then for the sake of humanitarian purposes, please be my guest... just clean up after yourself, please and thank you very kindly! The operative word here is "need," such as the pig who sucked down 4 McDonald's Cheeseburgers and 40 Chicken McNuggets, AND an order of "America's Favorite Fries" INSIDE THE PLANE leaving the remaining passengers smelling like French Fries after the long flight from Cincinnati to Los Angeles... thanks for being so considerate, douchebag.

+ Oh, and one last thing to my fellow First Class Travelers: Lose the awful running shoes, dad jeans, and un-tailored baggy wovens and oxfords... I have never seen so many unattractively-dressed businessmen (?) - where did MOST everyone's sense of self-pride go? This all mixed with self-entitlement reminds me of that old saying, "When you're ugly inside, you're ugly outside." ( I said, "MOST" and not ALL).


"I wish we could all bake a cake and fill it with rainbows and smiles." - from 'Mean Girls'



Have a neat day!!!

AirAfreak  
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ipodguy7
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting airafreak (Reply 158):
Here are a few thoughts I would like to share:

Well Said Airafreak! Could not agree more on your point of attire in first class. I yearn for the days when even economy pax would wear only their Sunday finest clothes to take flights. Sadly I was born a few generations late to experience this first-hand.
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
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AirAfreak
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:22 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 159):

Quoting airafreak (Reply 158):
Here are a few thoughts I would like to share:

Well Said Airafreak! Could not agree more on your point of attire in first class. I yearn for the days when even economy pax would wear only their Sunday finest clothes to take flights. Sadly I was born a few generations late to experience this first-hand.

Happy Airliners.net Anniversary, ipodguy7!!! I'll drink to that!!!  

And yes, even at 35 years old, I was able to experience a world of individual self-pride. Now, I mostly see self-entitlement and board shorts and flip flops and tank tops and mom jeans and dad jeans and... occasionally, I will fly to a leisure destination and see an entire plane nicely dressed. For example, I flew to Tahiti in May and everyone was nicely-dressed. Even when I walked to Economy Class, even the children were properly dressed, too! It was very refreshing!  
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
F9Animal
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:51 am

This is not just Alaska that does this. I also think it may be somewhat related to security? I know that a standing line near the flight deck is frowned upon. Maybe a flight attendant can answer that question? Perhaps adding a bathroom on a narrow body between First Class and Coach? Remove the very forward law instead?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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fallap
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:04 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 159):
I yearn for the days when even economy pax would wear only their Sunday finest clothes to take flights. Sadly I was born a few generations late to experience this first-hand.

Here we go again, I for one is glad to be born in 1990 and thus, being able to enjoy flying at a relative inexpense to destinations all over the world. Had I been born in the 1930's, I would most likely not had been able to see 56 nations on an aircraft technician's salary

In the so called "Golden era" of aviation, only the elite and wealthy had the luxury of flying, today most people can enjoy such privilege.

Who in their righteous mind would subjugate themself to wear a tight suit and tie for a long flight? There are easier ways to hurt yourself. (Like reading through this thread for instance)

[Edited 2014-08-19 01:06:24]

[Edited 2014-08-19 01:09:55]
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
jah718
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:47 am

I find this lawsuit to be ridiculous and I am so tired of the economy passengers feeling like they have some right to the first class bathroom. I have done a lot of flying in my time, the majority of which was in economy, and I have never felt the need to go beyond the curtain. If someone pays extra for first class, then they deserve to have better amenities. I know, if I was in first class, I wouldn't want people constantly shuffling through the aisle and not being able to use the bathroom myself due to too many people. Do you also think it is unfair that you cannot go into a restaurant and use the toilet, or go into a hotel and use the bed for free?

This is just further evidence of the envy of people who are successful in business and the desire of unsuccessful people to want all things to be equal. This is more of the 1%/99% nonsense whereby, people who put the work in, get a good job, pay for the better things in life, are punished for their efforts. The 99% are saying that it's okay not to work hard, everyone should be equal. The successful wealthy people should, for some reason, be forced to share their success and their money with everyone. For a country, that was so staunchly opposed to communism in the past, people are seriously flirting with the idea now. Maybe we should also give up our right to land ownership and all live together on collective farms? If you want to use the first class toilet, then pay up. End of story. All things in life come at a price.

[Edited 2014-08-19 01:57:34]

[Edited 2014-08-19 02:02:07]
 
AWACSooner
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:25 am

You know? I started this thread, in a bit of a guilty pleasure, to see the varied responses about lav usage...and compare them with some of your past posts regarding charges for carry-ons, checked luggage, etc. Without outing individual posters, I've noticed quite a few of you who are incensed at the "elitism" of segregating the lavs between F and Y are some of the same ones who have absolutely no problem with the airlines doing all those ancillary charges, stating "you get what you pay for." Just saying...you can't have it both ways guys.

I appreciate the fact that, with only a few exceptions, this thread hasn't completely de-evloved into an all-out flame war.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:35 pm

I don't know why everyone keeps harping on whether the F passengers actually paid for their seat. The bottom line is that the airline's marketing and yield management experts have decided who sits there. If someone is sitting there, then they have "paid" for that privilege in a way the airline deemed acceptable. If one is not sitting there, then they have not "paid" for that privelege.

With that seat comes the rights and privileges.

The grey area seems to be the lav. And this topic arises a lot on here. But where do you draw the line?

Yes, a bathroom satsfies a bioligical need, but so does the food served. Why one and not the other? Y class passengers should demand F food, as they are hungry too. How about Customers of Size? Clearly their biological need to not suffer DVT would be satisfied with a larger seat. It seems a very grey area that can only be dealt with on a person to person basis decided by the FA.

For the record, I have seen FAs allow Y passengers to use the J lav when needed. Also give juice and chocolate bars to a Y passenger when he seemed to be suffering from low blood sugar. And yes ... I recall a COS discreetly upgraded to J when clearly he was in great discomfort in his Y seat.

The big problem often is not the J passengers, nor the Customer nor FA. The biggest problem appears to be the other Y passengers who "want what the other guy is getting ... how come him and not me ..... waaaa waaaa waaaa". That being the case, often it is just easiest to draw a clear black border where the grey area once existed.

Last week, I was working a YYZ-YVR flight and toward the end of the flight, I was in the forward galley when a FA brought up a woman and her daughter from Y to use the J lav. When the daughter was in the lav the woman was waiting in the galley. She saw the large wicker basket full of "movie snacks" for the J passengers. She then started to fill her purse with Lindor chocolates, Miss Vickies crisps and a bottle of Perrier. I very politely told her that those were intended for Executive Class passengers. She just said "oh they wont miss it".

I just keyed myself back into the cockpit shaking my head chuckling.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
AT
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:02 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 165):
Yes, a bathroom satsfies a bioligical need, but so does the food served. Why one and not the other? Y class passengers should demand F food, as they are hungry too.

yes, but you can bring your own food with you (as many Y passengers do). You can't bring your own toilet on board!

Here is how I would ultimately summarize the situation:
25%: First Class passengers not wanting to share what they have got
25%: Economy passengers feeling entitled to something they haven't got
50%: Logistics-- the high passenger:toilet ratio.

How about implementing a sector length based rule: for flights more than X hours, the passenger to toilet ratio must be at least ___.
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 128):
If you feel an upset stomach coming on, you get up and make your way to the toilet.

You don't sit there until you're about to crap yourself to dart over. It's common sense.

And if there's a queue in economy and the F lav is empty?
 
shufflemoomin
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting jah718 (Reply 163):
This is more of the 1%/99% nonsense whereby, people who put the work in, get a good job, pay for the better things in life, are punished for their efforts.

No, this is about people thinking that because they have more money that they're better than everyone else. Just like you're being with your comments. I don't care if you've got a million dollars in the bank, that doesn't automatically make you a better person than someone with nothing. You might like to think so, and I hope it helps you sleep at night, but you're wrong. I'd rather hang out with a poor person who sees everyone as an equal than a millionaire who thinks he's above people.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:15 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 166):

yes, but you can bring your own food with you (as many Y passengers do). You can't bring your own toilet on board!

But what if you couldn't? What if traffic caused your delayed arrival at the airport and you had to run through the terminal, not allowing you to purchase your own food. What if a close connection also stopped you from buying food? Does that entitle one to demand food from F due to "biological needs"?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:17 pm

I honestly see no problem with the solution that Coach passengers line up behind First, while they wait their turn for the F lav. It solves the problem of having the small cabin up front having a line down the aisle, and passengers using the top of the seats as arm rests.

Everyone in F needs to understand that while they’ve paid for calm, personalized service, they’re also on public transportation, and with that comes sharing the facilities available in a limited space.
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DexSwart
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 167):
And if there's a queue in economy and the F lav is empty?

I've never in my life and near 440 flights ever seen a queue for a lavatory.

But, like I said. You make your way over before the crap hits the fan.

[Edited 2014-08-19 07:53:16]
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:06 pm

I've seen plenty of lines - especially on flights where you have extended "remain seated" periods owing to turbulence or flights which had lengthy runway/taxi hold times before the aircraft reached cruise altitude. You also see lengthy restroom queues after a large (relatively) meal is served.

I'm mixed on the subject. I fully agree that there is a class distinction between first and coach class and that it is made explicitly clear to passengers that the first class lavatory is supposed to be reserved for passengers ticketed in that cabin while the lavatories elsewhere in the cabin are reserved for those ticketed in economy.

I also fully agree that one who has a first class ticket -rarely- has bought a first class ticket. Perhaps 1 in 5 passengers actually paid for it (at least domestic US). The rest are all upgraders. Indeed, I will be willing to bet good money that there are several passengers in economy whose last-minute paid economy class ticket has a higher cost than someone who paid for a first class ticket four months in advance. So, who paid more for a ticket might be a more relevant question!

That all being said, I think there is a legitimate safety concern with people from coach charging up to the first class lavatory - given its proximity to the cockpit. I believe that part of the exclusivity policy on single-aisle aircraft is to limit the number of people that appear to be charging up to the cockpit area - raising concern that someone is making a run at the cockpit (regardless of how secure the cockpit door is).

I've had my youngish son use the first class restroom on occasion. This was done when we were in the first couple rows of economy and either 1) the queue for the coach lavs was long or 2) a service trolley was blocking the aisle. From my viewpoint, he can either discretely use an unoccupied lav, or have an accident - resulting in the aircraft being taken out of service temporarily to clean the seat/floor.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:28 pm

I honestly have to laugh watching that video, as these self-anointed "experts" talk about how the "law" states you have to use the lav in the cabin you're ticketed for (it doesn't) and how the "law" says that flight attendants are there to provide excellent service (they're not, technically), etc. Just utter hogwash all the way around.

I personally find it offensive to see Y class customers constantly making a beeline for the F lav, as I respect the arrangement airlines ask customers to abide by - but if it's an emergency, I don't see an issue. That all said, I don't see where two F/C customers could make a scene and demand a flight attendant bar customers from using the F/C lav. It's one thing if a F/C customer were waiting and couldn't get in because of the heavy flows of Y customers to that lav, but it's another thing entirely for them to ask them to be the potty police just because.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ipodguy7
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 161):
This is not just Alaska that does this. I also think it may be somewhat related to security? I know that a standing line near the flight deck is frowned upon. Maybe a flight attendant can answer that question? Perhaps adding a bathroom on a narrow body between First Class and Coach? Remove the very forward law instead?

Did you just not bother to read any of the 150+ replies ahead of you?
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lpdal
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RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 172):
I also fully agree that one who has a first class ticket -rarely- has bought a first class ticket.
Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):

I might also mention that the "I paid for it" argument is ludicrous considering over half of the F class cabin did not, in fact, pay for their seat.
Quoting questions (Reply 61):
In the US few F passengers "pay" for an F ticket.
Quoting questions (Reply 61):
The majority are entitled upgraders flying in Upgrade Class.
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 92):
How many of those F passengers really pay for their ticket? With many ways to redeem miles and complimentary upgrades, odds are that the guy seated in 12C may have paid hundreds more than you. He'd be just as entitled (if not more) to use the forward lavatory just because he "chose to pay more money".

Here's one guy that flies in paid domestic F.

I'd like to extend Carfield's comment. Here are the minimum dollars you must spend to attain any sort of status on DL and UA:

Delta
-Silver Medallion: $2,500 USD
-Gold Medallion: $5,000 USD
-Platinum Medallion: $7,500 USD
-Diamond Medallion: $12,500 USD

United
-Premier Silver: $2,500 USD
-Premier Gold: $5,000 USD
-Premier Platinum: $7,500 USD
-Premier 1K: $10,000 USD

So, upgrading on the basis of your status isn't "free" at all, or even close. Silver and Gold members hardly ever get upgraded from what I hear, and even Platinum Medallions on Delta have an extremely difficult time getting an upgraded on an flight to or from ATL. So unless you're the highest or second highest level of status on an airline, it would be a miracle to be "regularly upgraded".

-LPDAL  
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14175
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 175):
So unless you're the highest or second highest level of status on an airline, it would be a miracle to be "regularly upgraded".

On DL, full fare is generally upgraded at the time of booking regardless of tier status. I don't think I've ever missed an upgrade as a silver on a Y ticket.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 176):
On DL, full fare is generally upgraded at the time of booking regardless of tier status. I don't think I've ever missed an upgrade as a silver on a Y ticket.

Regardless, $2,500 and above is not considered free. No such thing as a free lunch...

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 170):
I honestly see no problem with the solution that Coach passengers line up behind First, while they wait their turn for the F lav. It solves the problem of having the small cabin up front having a line down the aisle, and passengers using the top of the seats as arm rests.

...except my most previous employer banned queueing for the forward lavatory. Many other carriers do the same, some authorities mandate no blocking of the flight deck door. Therefore, if not for reserving the lavatory on grounds of class paid for, there are also other reasons.

Perversely, if economy/coach passengers were allowed to use the First lavatory but had to queue in the aisle, but behind the curtain/divider, I would have no doubt there would be a thread on here from someone who recently travelled on airline X in the front row of coach and throughout the flight all they had was the ass of some other coach passenger queueing for the privilege of using the forward lav.

Rgds

Rgds
Flying around India
 
jcwr56
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:11 pm

Why don't any of you folks who actually work for the airlines look up their official corporate policy and put it up here or at least provide a link.

I'm not talking procedures, I'm talking corporate policy on use of Lavs on aircraft. I'd love to see the differences each carrier has.

Hmm, matter of fact I just might mass email U.S carriers myself and see how they respond.

Personally, I don't care who uses what. I'm a human being and will respect each person as such. Not like some who feel they can dump on others.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 175):
United
-Premier Silver: $2,500 USD
-Premier Gold: $5,000 USD
-Premier Platinum: $7,500 USD
-Premier 1K: $10,000 USD

Not quite true. The dollar requirements are waived for all levels except 1K if you spend $25k on a UA branded credit card. For me, spending $25k on a credit card took about 3 months. Or you get a United MileagePlus Presidential Plus℠ Card which includes a United Club membership.

So, the barriers are not that steep.

[Edited 2014-08-19 10:32:21]
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 168):
No, this is about people thinking that because they have more money that they're better than everyone else. Just like you're being with your comments. I don't care if you've got a million dollars in the bank, that doesn't automatically make you a better person than someone with nothing. You might like to think so, and I hope it helps you sleep at night, but you're wrong. I'd rather hang out with a poor person who sees everyone as an equal than a millionaire who thinks he's above people.

No one is arguing who's better, please stay on point about Y passengers using F passengers' amenities.

Put yourself in their shoes, if you paid a premium to use the amenities, would you let some other passengers use what you paid for without paying the same without saying anything? If you're all that generous about paying a premium for amenities for someone else to use, I suggest you pay for my F/C ticket all the time.

Can I just say, if you want to use toilet all that much, fly private, have all the toilet time you want!

F class paid (regardless if they paid with money, miles or points) for F class service, and that includes F class food, F class seats, F class "entitlement" to F class toilet. If you paid Y class service then know that you will get Y class food, Y class seats, Y class "entitlement" to Y class toilet. Seat comfort and pitch in F cabin shouldn't be a concern of Y passengers, cause they didn't pay for it. If it's worth it or not also isn't a concern for Y passengers.

I'm just over annoyed that some freeloaders think it's the same plane, I can use the other cabin's service!

I'm quoting this scene from Iron Lady (2011) to remind you. http://youtu.be/8cHWYgbcVSA?t=1m5s
"May I say, on behalf of those who have had to fight their way up, and don't feel guilty about it. We resent those slackers who take take take, and contribute nothing..."

Try that on EK, see if they'll let you on their F lav with your Y ticket!!!

People just got to realize, not all tickets are equal. Even there are F tickets who don't get all the points and there are those get extra points. NO ONE is better than another, but there are better tickets than another, it's up to you to choose if you want to pay the premium for "better" access to service.
Viva Las Vegas
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 181):
F class paid (regardless if they paid with money, miles or points) for F class service, and that includes F class food, F class seats, F class "entitlement" to F class toilet. If you paid Y class service then know that you will get Y class food, Y class seats, Y class "entitlement" to Y class toilet. Seat comfort and pitch in F cabin shouldn't be a concern of Y passengers, cause they didn't pay for it. If it's worth it or not also isn't a concern for Y passengers.

Where your argument falls apart is that some passengers pay a Y class fare but the ticket value is higher than what someone paid for a F class fare - its that all the F class seats were purchased before the Y class passenger bought the ticket.

This has happened to me.

Flight from DCA to CLT. Ticket cost me $1500 round trip - in coach class. F class was zeroed out two days before hand. Most likely all but one or two were upgrades.

Who should be more entitled? Someone who paid $500 round trip and got upgraded at five days from departure or me who paid $1500 round trip but is in row 10 (exit row)?
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 182):
Who should be more entitled? Someone who paid $500 round trip and got upgraded at five days from departure or me who paid $1500 round trip but is in row 10 (exit row)?

Someone who paid $500 round trip and got upgraded at five days from departure, is also the same someone spent countless time and money prior to his/her $500 flight to achieve a status or level (or whatever airlines want to call it). So comparing that to the $1500 return in Coach, they still spent more. Your argument is still invalid.
Viva Las Vegas
 
airbazar
Posts: 9902
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 181):
No one is arguing who's better, please stay on point about Y passengers using F passengers' amenities.

You're making the assumption that the bathroom is a F class ammenity which is not always the case. It's pretty hard to justify a lav for 12 seats only. In most cases it is a consequence of the aircraft's configuration and the fact that short haul aircraft were never designed to have a F class cabin in the first place. That's like saying that door L1 is a F class ammenity and Y passengers should not use it. Also hard to justify. The alternative would be to install the lavs at the rear of the F class cabin and let the bathrooms be shared, like you see on widebody aircraft, but that would take away valuable revenue space on such a small airplane.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7506
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 181):
I'm just over annoyed that some freeloaders think it's the same plane, I can use the other cabin's service!

I am sure the % freeloaders in premium cabin will be way higher than main cabin. Isn't it the reason airlines are fixing their frequent flyer programs? And it is still a public toilet, even in premium cabin.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting airafreak (Reply 158):
"I wish we could all bake a cake and fill it with rainbows and smiles."
 

Made my day!   
Viva Las Vegas
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 183):
Someone who paid $500 round trip and got upgraded at five days from departure, is also the same someone spent countless time and money prior to his/her $500 flight to achieve a status or level (or whatever airlines want to call it). So comparing that to the $1500 return in Coach, they still spent more. Your argument is still invalid.

Two errors there:

#1 I also get upgraded 5 days out. So its a wash. In any event, your assertion ignores the fact that one paid for first class service yet paid less than what one paid for coach service. See the problem here?

#2 There are lots of people that fly 50,000 miles a year and do it for less than $3000 a year. Don't automatically assume that 50k miles automatically means big spender. I used to do 50,000k a year for about $4000 a year.

[Edited 2014-08-19 12:18:21]
 
drgmobile
Posts: 984
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 165):
Last week, I was working a YYZ-YVR flight and toward the end of the flight, I was in the forward galley when a FA brought up a woman and her daughter from Y to use the J lav. When the daughter was in the lav the woman was waiting in the galley. She saw the large wicker basket full of "movie snacks" for the J passengers. She then started to fill her purse with Lindor chocolates, Miss Vickies crisps and a bottle of Perrier. I very politely told her that those were intended for Executive Class passengers. She just said "oh they wont miss it".

Some people just have no class no matter what letter is on their boarding pass.... But they're almost always in Y.

This whole argument is quite silly. People seated in a premium cabin are there for a premium product. The manner in which they got there is irrelevant. It is reasonable to dedicate one lavatory or a set of lavatories to that cabin. It is reasonable for an airline to ask passengers not seated in that cabin to avoid using it.

Passengers not seated in the economy cabin also have a reasonable expectation to be able to use a lavatory. If the front facility is available and the back is not, and won't be for quite some time, it is not unreasonable to use the facility in the front. If the facilities provided are inadequate to meet the reasonable needs of passengers in Y, then the airline has a decision to make to either ensure the integrity of its service offerings to passengers across all cabins or deal with the fall-out. And the fall-out is that passengers WILL show the same disregard for the airline and its policies as the carrier shows the passengers for their needs.

Who decides what's reasonable? Most people know what's reasonable. It's the rest who end up in the press/courts/jail.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 184):
The alternative would be to install the lavs at the rear of the F class cabin and let the bathrooms be shared, like you see on widebody aircraft,


Don't think all is shared, and CX 744 only has 9 seats sharing 1 toilet, but yet you're not allowed to "share" with other class pax, not even J, let alone Y. And yes it is quite extravagant in CX F toilets!



I agree, if need is there, I don't think I'll have problem with Y pax using F toilets, but i'm simply talking about once you let one in, the rest of Y class think it's ok. And yes, please clean after yourself, thank you!
Viva Las Vegas
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 187):
So its a wash. In any event, your assertion ignores the fact that one paid for first class service yet paid less than what one paid for coach service. See the problem here?

Problem I see is you paid for Coach, and others paid for First, that's the problem you failed to realize. Regardless of how much or how they paid, they still paid for First, and you paid for Coach. Period.

[Edited 2014-08-19 12:37:38]
Viva Las Vegas
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 185):
I am sure the % freeloaders in premium cabin will be way higher than main cabin. Isn't it the reason airlines are fixing their frequent flyer programs? And it is still a public toilet, even in premium cabin.


I would suggest you try to get into EK's First class toilet next time you get on without a F/C ticket, see if they'll agree with you. Oh, and let me know how it turns out, be sure to bring your argument on here to them, I'm dying to find out.   

[Edited 2014-08-19 12:38:58]
Viva Las Vegas
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 188):
The manner in which they got there is irrelevant.

This is exactly what I'm talking about!!! How much they paid or how they paid is not your concern, they get what they reserved for, you get what you reserved for, just because the cost of your reservation is higher than the rest doesn't mean you're "entitled" to their service, even if the price you pay in Coach is higher than First.
Viva Las Vegas
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 168):
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 168):
No, this is about people thinking that because they have more money that they're better than everyone else. Just like you're being with your comments. I don't care if you've got a million dollars in the bank, that doesn't automatically make you a better person than someone with nothing. You might like to think so, and I hope it helps you sleep at night, but you're wrong. I'd rather hang out with a poor person who sees everyone as an equal than a millionaire who thinks he's above people.

Why are you turning this into a human rights and socioeconomic debate. We are talking about an airline with two distinct classes of service. The OP never said that he was a better person! However, if a person has paid for a premium service and all its included amenities, then yes, they are entitled to more privilege than someone in Y. That is the entire point of premium class travel- they are entitled to more because of their ticket!
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 193):
That is the entire point of premium class travel- they are entitled to more because of their ticket!

Truer words have never been written!
Viva Las Vegas
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15004
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 184):
You're making the assumption that the bathroom is a F class ammenity which is not always the case. It's pretty hard to justify a lav for 12 seats only.

Why? Again, this is your opinion, not any sort of fact. I think its justifiable as an amenity.

And the lav is also used by the pilots and FAs. Not like they can't share with Y. But its true.

Why don't airlines let every paying pax into their clubs? Why don't they give every pax priority tags. Let everyone board first. Let everyone through priority screening. Hard to justify so many checkin agents for so few F pax. Eliminate that perk too...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 181):
People just got to realize, not all tickets are equal. Even there are F tickets who don't get all the points and there are those get extra points. NO ONE is better than another, but there are better tickets than another, it's up to you to choose if you want to pay the premium for "better" access to service.

What a brilliant answer and thank you for putting that in perspective (read your post after I posted mine)!



Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 172):
Perhaps 1 in 5 passengers actually paid for it (at least domestic US).

I can assure you, this is wrong. Full stop. People often forget that domestic F class pax may be international pax continuing their travel abroad in F or J! I say this as former AA staff.
'

Quoting longhauler (Reply 165):
Last week, I was working a YVR flight and toward the end of the flight, I was in the forward galley when a FA brought up a woman and her daughter from Y to use the J lav. When the daughter was in the lav the woman was waiting in the galley. She saw the large wicker basket full of "movie snacks" for the J passengers. She then started to fill her purse with Lindor chocolates, Miss Vickies crisps and a bottle of Perrier. I very politely told her that those were intended for Executive Class passengers. She just said "oh they wont miss it".

What a shame that people (And I have met a fair few with similar stories) are stealing from an airline! She didn't pay for that service and she didn't pay for that snack. And doing so after being escorted up to the front lav by an FA as a courtesy....... what is this society coming to?

[Edited 2014-08-19 12:51:21]
 
AT
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 181):
NO ONE is better than another, but there are better tickets than another, it's up to you to choose if you want to pay the premium for "better" access to service.

It is grossly inaccurate to label this s a choice. Over 90% of the flying public does not have a choice-- they simply have to fly coach. so there's no really 'it's up to you' in the equation.

I don't disagree with the basic premise that if you pay more, you should get more. The problem is that the airlines have been squeezing out every amenity from the Economy cabin and there comes a point where one has to draw the line.

How about having a general discretionary policy that eases restroom access while still maintaining some exclusivity for F class.

-in general passengers should use the restroom in their ticketed cabin.
-passengers can not congregate by the front rest rooms / cockpit door
-in cases where there is a queue of more than say four or five passengers waiting in Y, the flight attendant can direct a few of them to the F class cabin. Then, if a F class passenger needs to use the restroom, the attendant may usher them in front of the Y class passenger.


thoughts?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7506
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 191):
I would suggest you try to get into EK's First class toilet next time you get on without a F/C ticket, see if they'll agree with you. Oh, and let me know how it turns out, be sure to bring your argument on here to them, I'm dying to find out.

Not going to happen, because I don't fly ME3 as a principle. There are enough toilets on long haul WBs. Any Y trying to F lav on a long-haul without FA's permission being nosy.

This discussion is related to domestic travel and use of F lav by Y "with FA's permission".

May be F potty police should grab the PA system from FA (right after safety demo) and announce so no Y would dare to use F lav. Then see what happens.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 197):
so there's no really 'it's up to you' in the equation.

The choice you made is to NOT PAY for the service you want, that's the choice you made. Instead argue it into "entitlement" and "human rights".

Quoting AT (Reply 197):
in cases where there is a queue of more than say four or five passengers waiting in Y

You cannot congregate at entries of lav anyways due to FAA regulations. But you can, however, turn around to look the back of the plane every 5 seconds and see if anyone gets out and you get up fast enough to get there. Or you pay the premium and don't have to worry about that. That's the choice you make.

[Edited 2014-08-19 13:04:40]

[Edited 2014-08-19 13:05:29]
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