pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 198):
May be F potty police should grab the PA system from FA (right after safety demo) and announce so no Y would dare to use F lav. Then see what happens.

I thought the big 3 already does that, AA, UA & DL all include that into their safety demo.
Viva Las Vegas
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 197):
It is grossly inaccurate to label this s a choice. Over 90% of the flying public does not have a choice-- they simply have to fly coach. so there's no really 'it's up to you' in the equation.

Oh, do not be fooled. It is a choice. Whether or not it is a wise choice is why the majority of pax travel in Y (myself included). But there is a choice, although reality requires most to travel in the rear.

Quoting AT (Reply 197):
How about having a general discretionary policy that eases restroom access while still maintaining some exclusivity for F class.

-in general passengers should use the restroom in their ticketed cabin.
-passengers can not congregate by the front rest rooms / cockpit door
-in cases where there is a queue of more than say four or five passengers waiting in Y, the flight attendant can direct a few of them to the F class cabin. Then, if a F class passenger needs to use the restroom, the attendant may usher them in front of the Y class passenger.


thoughts?

I have no problem with CC using discretion and common sense. But I feel it would be unwise to establish a policy for it. Then a true misuse would occur as people would be told of the "policy" and purposefully misuse it to their advantage. Much easier to say- front lav is for F class pax and all others may use the rear 2 lavs, for example (and as is the case).
 
evomutant
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:10 pm

I frequently fly in J longhaul. I usually go to the Y lavs to stretch my legs, and to get out of the cloying and simpering service that is a hallmark of the airline I am often forced to fly with to get to where I need to go (the assumption that because you can afford a better seat means you wanted to be waited on hand and foot irritates me). Probably considered a phillistine by some of the haughty folk on here.

The attitudes of some of the people on this thread are starting to make me think I am better off saving some money and travelling Y instead, lest I be associated with the incredible smugness some of my fellow premium passengers seem inflated with.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7507
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 200):
I thought the big 3 already does that, AA, UA & DL all include that into their safety demo.

Announcement says do not loiter, do not congregate at lavs and main cabin pax use lavs in main cabin.

It also says "ALL pax are required to follow crews' verbal instructions(apart from all displayed signs)". If FA says let Y pax use the F lav, F pax has no say.

Not following FA's instruction is major offense than using F lav on FA's permission.
 
AT
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:20 pm

Not to nitpick (and I appreciate that this is drifting further away from the gist of the original topic),

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 199):
he choice you made is to NOT PAY for the service you want, that's the choice you made. Instead argue it into "entitlement" and "human rights".

I'm not arguing it so, and nor am I saying that Y class passengers should have access to F facilities (I'm all for a case by case exception). I'm only saying that "choosing" to fly First versus Economy is not always a choice.
Let's say person A has $1000; person B has $10000. Now an economy class ticket to destination X costs $500; a F class ticket costs $1500. Person B indeed DOES have a choice. Person A does not. That's all.
 
pasu129
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:20 pm

Don't get me wrong, if there's a person in need, please do use the lavatory in front, I am most certainly rest of the fellow F pax wouldn't enjoy a smelly plane. But when it comes to "entitlement" no one is entitled to anything, not Y pax and certainly not even for F pax. Yes F pax paid for premium seats (regardless if it was a premium cost), they are still bind by the same TofC with the airline they are flying with, regardless of cabins they are booked and flying in.

Reality of it is, some people choose to pay for premium seats, and able to do such, and there are some who want to pay for premium seats, but are not able to do so. And we are not talking about privilege or "better than others". It is a simple "Willing and Able" fact.

If you are not willing and able to sit up front, then you'll have to sit in the back, that's all it is. I have flown many Y class myself and I was in my teens, but now I am willing and able to fly a class that offers a bit more.
Viva Las Vegas
 
airbazar
Posts: 9902
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 195):

Why? Again, this is your opinion, not any sort of fact. I think its justifiable as an amenity.

It is not just my opinion. Which airline lists dedicated F class lavs as an amenity in their narrowbody aircraft? I'm pretty sure it is at best a discretionary amenity.
Here's a link to AS's First class amenities. Nowhere does it list dedicated lavatories for F class passengers.
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 203):

It also says "ALL pax are required to follow crews' verbal instructions(apart from all displayed signs)". If FA says let Y pax use the F lav, F pax has no say.

  
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9587
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 93):
I know where it's going ---the trash can.

Actually more like to the bank per Copter's post above.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 73):
I'm sure everyone who flies in economy would love to see seat pitch go up, unfortunately prices will go up accordingly which is something the travelling masses have said they don't want.

Actually that is not necessarily true. The question is always how much are the airlines willing to provide for the price offered. Most airlines could offer better seat pitch etc. however the price would have to be the same as all people see six months before when they book their tickets is the price, not the seat and amenities.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 102):
If you are flying in first class, you should have exclusive access to your cabin section (including Lavs). Just my 2c

I don't think I have ever seen any domestic touting anything regarding the lavatories and exclusivitiy. Ever. Have you? Does any of your FF information from AA say anything regarding the lavs? The only thing I see is about the meals, the boarding, the seat space, the service, and other amenities. That's it and all I expect. If an exclusive lav facility were promised I would expect it and demand it, but it is not offered or promised. And the FA announcement and airline policy don't count, it is what is promised to me in the program I participate in or seat contract I have purchased.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 104):
the United 739ER's have a toilet on the left side aft of the 1st class curtain. Where i should be.

You know there are medication for that, you should see you doctor!   (Though perhaps you meant "it" instead of "i"    )

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 128):
If you feel an upset stomach coming on, you get up and make your way to the toilet.

You don't sit there until you're about to crap yourself to dart over. It's common sense.

To be fair that doesn't always work. Sometimes you are fine, or think you are fine and then something happens, there is that stomach gurgle and you think to your self, "oh crap" (literally and figuratively   ). I am fortunate, in my years of flying that has only happened a couple times. And often people do not want to use the lav on the plane and will try to hold out until they land.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 140):
It is a bathroom dedicated to the use of first class passengers. What is so hard to accept about that?

Again, where is that promised to you in any of the material or advertising regarding First class? Often the location of the seating on the plane dictates it and not anything the airline promised when it sold yuo the seat. (And I am talking domestic, I know some overseas airlines have very exclusive lavs that even a US Domestic F class passenger wouldn't be allowed to use).

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 147):
I've never seen a US-based airline market a private bathroom to First Class passengers, although most have policies requesting that passengers attempt to use the restroom in the cabin they're ticketed in.

The problem is that most flights go out nearly full, and in addition to the passengers, the flight crew also use the rooms. Most medium-sized aircraft only have three bathrooms, including one in First -- this means that 150-160 people only have two bathrooms. Obviously this can be problematic. The Flyers who Talk take the position that 'if you're in coach, poop your pants before using the first class rest room, as I'm entitled and it's not my problem there's insufficient restrooms in the back.' If they paid full-fare for their tickets, I'd be empathetic toward this argument... but heck, when they don't get upgraded, guess which bathroom they're using if the ones in the back are occupied?

I recently flew a full DL 738 from CUN-DTW, seated in the first row of Economy Comfort. I had gotten travelers diarrhea the last few days of my vacation and shortly after takeoff nature called. But the service carts were blocking me from making the coach restrooms, and I couldn't wait 30 minutes, so I used the First bathroom.

Bottom line: when nature calls... especially when you don't know the health of the people around you (IBS, etc.)

  

Quoting rampart (Reply 149):
I think the lawsuit is irrelevant and least interesting of this discussion. Clearly, the tangent topic struck a nerve.

  

You can see where peoples passions are here. It is pretty interesting and a good discussion.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 150):
I have actually been on flights, when the F/As told the coach passengers to stand behind the curtain and specifically tell them that first class passengers have preferred access to the forward lavatory. There were even stricter F/As, who specifically instruct first class passengers not to stand near the entrance door too, and tell them to wait in the seats till the lavatory is vacant. S/he will call on the passenger when the restroom is ready. I really don't think most first class passengers are elitists or find coach passengers disgusting. However, you will feel really annoyed if there is constant stream of people going up and down the aisle too, especially when the service is finished, and people bumping into your shoulders all the time is not fun. One of the benefits on flying first class is the lower passenger to bathroom ratio, so you don't have to wait long if you need to use the facility.

  
That is a good FA that properly monitors their section yet also properly accommodates the passengers on their flight.

Tugg

[Edited 2014-08-19 13:51:03]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
silentbob
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 9):
F pax pay good money for certain expectations

Very few F passengers that I see actually pay for their own ticket. Between the free upgrades and those flying on someone else's dime, the number of people actually springing for a full far F ticket out of their own pocket is very small.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
Y class pax, paying less for their tickets have accepted that they must queue longer for the toilet, they accept they will not get a three course meal and they accept that they have to pay for bags. That is the service they paid for. It is not discrimination; it is life.

It's very common for someone in Y to have paid more than someone in F. Anyone with more than passing knowledge of aviation should know that.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
I do have to say that, as an American citizen having lived in the USA for quite a while and now living in the UK, this is nothing short of typical American anti-elitism that is an unfortunate trend in our society.

Actually, it's the elitism that is the problem. There is a difference between paying for a higher level of service and a societal outlook that sees others as beneath you.
 
AWACSooner
Topic Author
Posts: 2497
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 208):
Between the free upgrades and those flying on someone else's dime, the number of people actually springing for a full far F ticket out of their own pocket is very small.

Two things on this:
1. So what if someone else (their company) paid for their ticket? It's still a PAID ticket!
2. I'd love to see the numbers, if someone can post them, on the percentages of paid vs. elite status upgrades on domestic US F-class.
 
AT
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 209):
2. I'd love to see the numbers, if someone can post them, on the percentages of paid vs. elite status upgrades on domestic US F-class.

I was just thinking the same thing. Would be nice to have a breakdown of paid versus upgrades and also within the paid, self- versus company paid.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9587
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 209):
2. I'd love to see the numbers, if someone can post them, on the percentages of paid vs. elite status upgrades on domestic US F-class.

I would also like to see the margin involved as well since F has far higher cost to the airlines due to more FA requirements, food, drink, and storage & prep requirements, a higher customer service needs cost all round. Again just curious for the margin between the average F and an average Y seat (not the bottom of the barrel advertised special cost and the majority of the seats in Y don't go for that).

And for those that have an issue regarding the use of points/upgrades for First, don't forget that a number of Y seats are also awards/points seats as well.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15005
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 209):
1. So what if someone else (their company) paid for their ticket? It's still a PAID ticket!

Well, it's because, when someone travels on a company paid ticket, they are obviously going on vacation and are acting spoiled. They aren't being compensated for having to travel for business, being away from home and family, with little time for meals and personal time during their trip. G- forbid they are giving any sort of elevated level of comfort for their work.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 190):
Problem I see is you paid for Coach, and others paid for First, that's the problem you failed to realize. Regardless of how much or how they paid, they still paid for First, and you paid for Coach. Period.

I indeed paid for coach as there was nothing but coach left. But, then again as is aptly noted by MANY others, most others ALSO paid for coach and happened to get upgraded to first. They did NOT pay for first. Perhaps 1 in 5 did. So, how is it that my $1500 fare is viewed as being less valuable than a $500 fare where one managed to get a complementary upgrade?

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 196):
I can assure you, this is wrong. Full stop. People often forget that domestic F class pax may be international pax continuing their travel abroad in F or J! I say this as former AA staff.

And my wife who was a manager at US Airways would say I was right. She was in both corporate sales and in yield management. If you honestly believe that more than 2 people on PVD to DCA bought a first class fare, I have a bridge for sale near London for sale at a steep discount.

[Edited 2014-08-19 14:58:13]
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:59 pm

Are we seriously having this huge 212 post debate over the rights to use a shitter?

I like the rule that DL gives on domestic flights - "Please use the lavatory in your cabin."

Not sure why thats such a huge deal.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:59 pm

On AS is there a difference between lavs in the front and back of the plane?
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9587
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 214):
Are we seriously having this huge 212 post debate over the rights to use a shitter?

I like the rule that DL gives on domestic flights - "Please use the lavatory in your cabin."

Not sure why thats such a huge deal.

Because sometimes you can't "use the lavatory in your cabin" at the moment you need to.

Otherwise it is not an issue at all really. As I have noted in earlier posts it is OK to use the F class lav at times. And just be normal and polite about it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
warden145
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:36 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 154):
Guys, this is simple. It's called "discretion" and "common sense." 1/70 Y pax washrooms full? What's more inconvenient for everyone on board, crew or guests - a biohazard accident requiring diversion or a pleb shitting in the fancier hole in the ground?

I really hope that I'm wrong and misinterpreting what some people in this thread are saying, but I get the impression that some would rather see the biohazard accident happen, and just make sure that it's confined to Coach/Economy. Better that than allowing the unwashed masses to violate the sanctity of the upper-class cabins, and if the other people don't like the smell/bacteria, they should have thought about it before and shelled out the money for a higher class seat.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 168):
I'd rather hang out with a poor person who sees everyone as an equal than a millionaire who thinks he's above people.

  

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 171):
But, like I said. You make your way over before the crap hits the fan.

I've seen some people develop emergencies very quickly...maybe one minute between "I'm feeling okay" and "I need to get on a toilet RIGHT NOW". If that happens and there's a long line for the lavatories in your cabin, what's the best course of action at that point?

Quoting AT (Reply 197):
How about having a general discretionary policy that eases restroom access while still maintaining some exclusivity for F class.

-in general passengers should use the restroom in their ticketed cabin.
-passengers can not congregate by the front rest rooms / cockpit door
-in cases where there is a queue of more than say four or five passengers waiting in Y, the flight attendant can direct a few of them to the F class cabin. Then, if a F class passenger needs to use the restroom, the attendant may usher them in front of the Y class passenger.

This makes perfect sense to me, in the absence of rules mandating a minimum number of lavatories per person on any given flight (which actually seems like a better idea, but unless/until that's implemented, we have to make do with the infrastructure that currently exists).

Quoting evomutant (Reply 202):
The attitudes of some of the people on this thread are starting to make me think I am better off saving some money and travelling Y instead, lest I be associated with the incredible smugness some of my fellow premium passengers seem inflated with.

Could not agree more...after reading through this thread, I'm more disgusted with humanity than I have been in a very long time (actually, the last time I felt this way was after reading a thread on here where half of the responders wanted to ban all children from aircraft cabins). This is coming from someone who's never used a lavatory on a flight that lasted less than 5 hours, can usually get away with one "pit stop" on a 10 hour flight, and who wouldn't dream of "going through the curtain" into an upper class unless it were an absolute emergency. In general, I respect the differences between the cabins and know my place, but IMHO there needs to be an element of common sense injected in here. Sometimes emergencies happen (and I'm sure it's happened at least once to most of us; if it hasn't happened to you, congratulations and consider yourself lucky), and I strongly believe that there needs to be some flexibility in this policy to take such events into account.

The argument was made that, if the lavatories are opened up for more general use, then by extension all other amenities that pertain to physiological needs (food, wider seats, etc) would need to be also...IMHO that's a false comparison. People are usually okay with not eating for a 5 or 6 hour flight (and, maybe my experience isn't representative of how things "really" are, but on the longer flights I've been on, even Coach/Economy passengers get a meal) and IIRC can purchase food onboard if they do need to eat (i.e. if they haven't had a chance to eat in a while or are having blood sugar issues). However, while what/how much you eat and drink can influence your bodily functions, you don't have complete control over them. Like I said before, sometimes emergencies happen, and I strongly believe that, especially with there being so few lavatories on narrow-body aircraft that are being used for longer and longer flights these days, some flexibility is really important. I'm not saying that everyone from Coach/Economy should be parading up to the forward lavatory, but if there's a long line for the ones aft and someone has a very pressing matter, the forward lavatory shouldn't be completely off-limits, either.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 102):
Ever heard of the 80/20 rule? 20% of the cabin (First class/Business Class) supply 80% of the profit. While not 100% accurate on the bare numbers, the theory behind it obviously holds true.

I've heard references to this rule before...but, going by that logic (and the implication that Coach/Economy has no value to the airline's bottom line), why haven't airlines eliminated Coach/Economy altogether and just used smaller planes on all routes? I know some flights do this (BA's LCY-JFK service, and to an extent, UA's P.S. service JFK-LAX/SFO), but why not do this industry-wide if the airlines are getting so much of their profits from the premium cabins?
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
Skydrol
Posts: 1053
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 12:01 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 217):
Could not agree more...after reading through this thread, I'm more disgusted with humanity than I have been in a very long time (actually, the last time I felt this way was after reading a thread on here where half of the responders wanted to ban all children from aircraft cabins). This is coming from someone who's never used a lavatory on a flight that lasted less than 5 hours, can usually get away with one "pit stop" on a 10 hour flight, and who wouldn't dream of "going through the curtain" into an upper class unless it were an absolute emergency. In general, I respect the differences between the cabins and know my place, but IMHO there needs to be an element of common sense injected in here. Sometimes emergencies happen (and I'm sure it's happened at least once to most of us; if it hasn't happened to you, congratulations and consider yourself lucky), and I strongly believe that there needs to be some flexibility in this policy to take such events into account.

Nice to see there are folks like you, who consider others who are less 'perfect' than they are. For example those of us who have IBS or Colitis or urinary tract problems (many seniors)... are having any of these conditions a requirement to purchase a ticket in F to ensure a better chance not to soil the aisle waiting in a Y class lav queue?




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7020
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:47 pm

All this discussion about "this is my right, I paid for it" and the other way, "we are all in the same boat", is rather trivial. When it is an airline policy to divide lavs into classes, then so be it.

The root cause of all this is Y class pax to lav ratios having soared through the roof during the last couple of decades.

It would be more relevant if we shared knowledge about p/l ratios on the various airlines on short haul, medium haul and long haul. Then we could put a little red flag next to the airlines with the most extreme ratios.

Seatguru gives us most of the raw data so we can do our simple math.

It's the right of the airlines to use artificially created discomfort to try to encourage pax to pay X times more for basically the same product, but avoiding artificial discomfort. And it is our right to trash airlines who do so.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9562
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 71):
The sad thing is that a regulation wouldn't be necessary if people would let common sense prevail.

The refrain most heard today is that common sense is not that common anymore  
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 195):
Why don't airlines let every paying pax into their clubs? Why don't they give every pax priority tags. Let everyone board first. Let everyone through priority screening. Hard to justify so many checkin agents for so few F pax. Eliminate that perk too...

Now I think we are getting somewhere in the cost debate, airlines have already segregated pax based on cost before they enter the a/c, unfortunately, they refuse to take the ultimate step and have F only flights, or at least Business and F Class only, someone needs to remind us why they still want to put Y pax on the same a/c, what value do they bring to the flight?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7020
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:20 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 217):
...going by that logic (and the implication that Coach/Economy has no value to the airline's bottom line), why haven't airlines eliminated Coach/Economy altogether and just used smaller planes on all routes?

Very interesting question.

Maybe the answer is that by eliminating Y class they would also eliminate F, because the F class pax wouldn't accept the extreme discomfort of being cramped a dozen people into a Learjet.

Things are different in case those claiming, that that most of F is filled with upgrades, are correct. Then they could fly the remaining 2 or 3 pax in comfort in the Learjet.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9587
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 220):
someone needs to remind us why they still want to put Y pax on the same a/c, what value do they bring to the flight?

It is very simple actually: Because they pay for the flight of course and it would be uneconomical and impossible to have a profitable airline without them. (Or they would have done it already).

(Of course now we could be heading for a real flaming discussion!   )

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 189):
And yes it is quite extravagant in CX F toilets!

I love the window seat!

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 193):
The OP never said that he was a better person!

No, but some others have...

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
The fact of the matter is that all people are not equal on aircraft.

Oh, look, I quoted you!  
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 10):
We are a country are veering towards far too much entitlement

Seems so, such as entitlement to a lavatory on a open-to-public mode of transport.

-Rampart
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9562
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 222):
(Of course now we could be heading for a real flaming discussion!   )

Hey, you started it I only stirred the pot  

Regardless of how this current case goes, the situation will only continue to appear, the NEO and MAX are putting more pax on NB a/c and the airlines are not increasing the number of lav's, indeed some may be removing lavs to get more seats.
Exits are a safety issue so the FAA now leads there, but lavs, well they will follow the lead of the airlines as it is now purely an economic issue.
Wonder if they can remove lavs or disable them for flights under a set number of hours, better not give any ideas  
 
SXDFC
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Thread starter):
Please, no bashing AS...and we all know where this lawsuit will go

Well according to some, the lawsuit can only go down the First Class lav...
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:27 am

Re: number of seats purchased in first class....

Since I'm still recovering from my 24 hours of flying, I did some seat counting.

For next Wednesday - August 27 - US Airways has 1380 seats in first class operating out of DCA. This includes mainline, Republic, PSA large CRJs and any other US branded craft. In other words, it excludes any AA flight.

Of those 1380 seats, 255 are occupied. Its not possible to tell which of those 255 are paid F versus mileage upgrade versus award.

But, that breaks down to 18.478%. Assuming that 10% of the 255 are either upgrades or first class awards, we're down to about 230 paid F class seats or 16.667%.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:31 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 180):

Not quite true. The dollar requirements are waived for all levels except 1K if you spend $25k on a UA branded credit card.

I'm no genius, but $25,000 is definitely not free either! Even so, you still need to fly a certain number of segments and miles of which are not cheap either. Bottom line is that even attaining Silver Status requires a good chunk of change and is certainly not "free" by any measure. For that matter, nothing in life is free, but I'd bet that you'd have heard that cliche already...

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 180):
Or you get a United MileagePlus Presidential Plus℠ Card which includes a United Club membership.

MPPPC is discontinued and no longer available, the card you're thinking of is the MPCC (MP Club Card) which is the replacement.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 227):
I'm no genius, but $25,000 is definitely not free either! Even so, you still need to fly a certain number of segments and miles of which are not cheap either. Bottom line is that even attaining Silver Status requires a good chunk of change and is certainly not "free" by any measure. For that matter, nothing in life is free, but I'd bet that you'd have heard that cliche already...

If you're expensing company business transactions (hotels, meals, and plane tickets), it can come quite quickly. The vast majority of my monthly spend is reimbursed expenditures. And if you are savvy enough, you can actually make money off of your expenses - by earning the interest you earn from your bank in the float period between the time you are reimbursed and when you make your payment.

I have months where I will ring up $5,000 or $10,000 in business transactions. I get reimbursed twice a month. If timed right, I might have 45 days between the time I get reimbursed until the time my card payment is due.

[Edited 2014-08-19 17:36:20]
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 228):

All fine and dandy except not all people with status are business travelers. I'd like to see some real data instead of weasel words like "most people do XYZ".

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:49 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 229):
All fine and dandy except not all people with status are business travelers. I'd like to see some real data instead of weasel words like "most people do XYZ".

Where did I say the phrase "most people" or even the word "most"?
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:57 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 230):

Not you in particular, but the word "most" is thrown around on this thread a ton.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 208):
Actually, it's the elitism that is the problem. There is a difference between paying for a higher level of service and a societal outlook that sees others as beneath you.

Of course! I am not suggesting that any one person is better than another! I am saying that, pax are not equal (in regards to service/privileges/ amenities) in they eyes of airlines. It is a separate class of service and those people are entitled to maintain their exclusivity (one of the main reasons for traveling in a premium class) in their service, food offerings and other associated benefits. People accessing the F class lav with a Y ticket is, in my eyes, taking something that one is not entitled to. I for one, never have, and never will, take such liberties.

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 213):
And my wife who was a manager at US Airways would say I was right. She was in both corporate sales and in yield management. If you honestly believe that more than 2 people on PVD to DCA bought a first class fare, I have a bridge for sale near London for sale at a steep discount.

I am speaking from my experience at a very high yielding AA station, not about a specific flight. I can assure you, as my station was concerned, the paid:upgrade ratio was not 1:5, full stop. I'm sure your wife is accurate about her US Airways stats, but that cannot be determined to be applied to every airline that operates domestic F in the USA (and US had arguably the worst F class service of the majors, which might explain those stats).

[Edited 2014-08-19 18:24:46]

[Edited 2014-08-19 18:26:41]
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 216):
Because sometimes you can't "use the lavatory in your cabin" at the moment you need to.

Then u wait in line...why is that so problematic?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
shufflemoomin
Posts: 409
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:04 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:30 am

Quoting DexSwart (Reply 171):
I've never in my life and near 440 flights ever seen a queue for a lavatory.

Then you've either had extremely good luck, haven't been paying attention or are lying. I've had to wait for the toilet with at least one person in front me on many occasions.

All I've learned from this thread is that there are WAY more people here who think they're better than the "common man" because they fly up front than I would have suspected. Flying first class doesn't make you any better. It says nothing about you except your finances or connections. The comments most of you are making on here say much, much more about you.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11686
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:43 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 208):
Very few F passengers that I see actually pay for their own ticket. Between the free upgrades and those flying on someone else's dime, the number of people actually springing for a full far F ticket out of their own pocket is very small.

People that have their F ticket on someone else's dime usually pay for it with the work they are doing. Companies don´t pay F fares just to keep staff happy.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
silentbob
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:53 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 226):
But, that breaks down to 18.478%. Assuming that 10% of the 255 are either upgrades or first class awards, we're down to about 230 paid F class seats or 16.667%.

DCA is one of the most likely locations to have passengers paying for F, in my experience. Look at the available seats before they can get upgraded and compare that to a couple days after that deadline. If you don't have access to the actual information, that is probably the best way to judge for yourself.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 232):
I can assure you, as my station was concerned, the paid:upgrade ratio was not 1:5, full stop

On average, I would say that the 1:5 is still on the low side for most flights. On a lot of segments, you're lucky to get more than one passenger that actually paid an F fare. The rest are free or mileage upgrades. I'm not saying that makes those passengers worthy of a lower class of service, simply that some of the most vocal about "getting what they paid for", didn't actually pay for what they are getting.
 
AWACSooner
Topic Author
Posts: 2497
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:18 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 219):
The root cause of all this is Y class pax to lav ratios having soared through the roof during the last couple of decades.

This is why I can see the side of those who have zero problems walking through domestic F to use the lavs.

Another point to consider: I've flown on quite a few airlines with my infant daughter where the only lav containing a changing table was up front, thus precipitating a walk up front.

In both these cases, the airlines brought this crap (heh) upon themselves.


...but I still MOSTLY side with the "I paid for F, stay out" folks.
 
AT
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 237):
In both these cases, the airlines brought this crap (heh) upon themselves.

how apt a word choice.
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting mats (Reply 34):
My understanding is that US law strictly forbids passengers from aft cabins from using the first class cabin washroom on inbound flights to the US.

Not true, There is no FAR that covers which lavs are to be used by whom, its generally an airline policy.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 51):
a passenger SOLVED that Delimma at United!! when told he couldn't use the first class lavatory? He whipped it out and pissed all over the 1L door ,Flight attendant seat and floor! Then he pointed out there was a CART in the aisle and it was blocking the aisle and him getting to the rear lavs!! That put That problem to rest!! IN a HURRY!! I thought it was a "jacked up" thing to do as I had to ground the airplane. But I sure Understood!!

Anyone who behaves in this manner and thinks this type of behivor is ok has some issues.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 116):
1 Use your cabin's toilet.
2 Keep your bags out of my overhead bin.
3 Don't get in line to board the plane with your zone 5 ticket when they are calling zone 1.
4 My headrest is not your handrail.
5 Pick up your carry on. Guess what? The aisle gets narrower behind the curtain, and if you can't control it now you are in a lot of trouble.

#2 - The overheads are to be used by everyone while I will agree that if you are going to store a bag in front you shouldn't expect to have the same level of access to it as if it were above your seat.

I totally agree with #3 and #5
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 217):
This is coming from someone who's never used a lavatory on a flight that lasted less than 5 hours, can usually get away with one "pit stop" on a 10 hour flight,

I wish I was like you. I can go all day at work without the need to use the restroom, but the moment I sit down in a movie theater or on an airplane I need to use the bathroom. Ugh.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 217):
The argument was made that, if the lavatories are opened up for more general use, then by extension all other amenities that pertain to physiological needs (food, wider seats, etc) would need to be also...IMHO that's a false comparison.

Very false.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 219):
Then we could put a little red flag next to the airlines with the most extreme ratios.

Or the specific airline/aircraft configs.

Quoting par13del (Reply 220):
Now I think we are getting somewhere in the cost debate, airlines have already segregated pax based on cost before they enter the a/c, unfortunately, they refuse to take the ultimate step and have F only flights, or at least Business and F Class only, someone needs to remind us why they still want to put Y pax on the same a/c, what value do they bring to the flight?

I would think that if it were possible to make a lot more money flying a lot fewer people, they'd do it. More than likely we just haven't seen the best aircraft for the job (i.e. mainline comfort, RJ sized, mainline CASM).

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9562
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 240):
I would think that if it were possible to make a lot more money flying a lot fewer people, they'd do it.

In which case the airlines should not regard these people as add on's to be tolerated.
Example bag fees, since elites and F pax usually travel without bags or their status exempts them from paying, who exactly is paying the millions the airlines are pocketing and listing on their bottom line?
How about change fees, are F and elites also exempt?

If the lowely masses are needed to make the flight profitable, why hit them with bag fees, smaller seats, lower and lower seat pitch, no food not even free water on some flights etc. etc etc. now they have an issue with them using the lav that they installed in the front of F rather than at the back?

In time the masses will receive better service, the question is whether it is as a result of their actions or management finally respecting their value to the bottom line.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: AS Being Sued Over 1st Class Bathroom Usage

Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 241):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 240):I would think that if it were possible to make a lot more money flying a lot fewer people, they'd do it.
In which case the airlines should not regard these people as add on's to be tolerated.

I wasn't addressing that. I was just saying why airlines need the vast Y sections on their aircraft. Of course, the reality is that many of those Y sections are profitable and many of those F sections are likely losing a few bucks or more. Generically speaking, I would assume that most any business would prefer to earn more off of less, and for the airlines this will require a different business model utilizing different aircraft than we have today.

Quoting par13del (Reply 241):
In time the masses will receive better service, the question is whether it is as a result of their actions or management finally respecting their value to the bottom line.

If people paid for it, it'd be there. If people don't pay for it, or value it enough to show loyalty to a carrier that offers more service for a higher price, then there is no value to the bottom line.

Not saying I want fewer lav's, less pitch, no meals, pay-for-soft-drinks, etc. Just saying that people need to be paying for those things in a profitable way for the airlines or the airlines won't provide it.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos