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1337Delta764
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Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:33 am

Currently, the terminals at JFK are not organized by alliance. SkyTeam is currently split between Terminals 1, 2, and 4 (although T2 will close in the future). Star is currently split between Terminals 1, 4, and 7. Finally, Oneworld is currently split between Terminals 1, 7, and 8.

IMO the Port Authority should consider a plan to consolidate alliances at JFK. Perhaps it could be organized this way:

T1 - Star Alliance
T4 - SkyTeam and VS
T5 - B6, EI, and HA
T7 - Everybody else
T8 - Oneworld

What does anyone here think? The problem is that AF, JL, KE, and LH all jointly own T1.
 
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mats
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:41 am

There are two problems: the first is the large O&D market; the second is building ownership.

Unlike many US airports, JFK is a very heavy O&D market, so a particular airline's location is less important. It's not 100 percent, but it's less important than at some other airports.

There would certainly be benefits to alliances sharing facilities: shared check-in, lounges, staff, equipment, etc. This would potentially save money.

But the JFK terminals were built before the alliance era. Terminal One is owned by a conglomeration of Air France, Korean Air, Lufthansa, and JAL. They won't move because they own the building. It's not up to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

Furthermore, there are plenty of alternatives for connecting passengers, so JFK can be left to the O&D market.

I do wish that the major hubs had more airside buses. The Star Alliance carriers now have this at Newark, and American Airlines has this for British Airways connections at Chicago O'Hare, but they're a "missing link" at JFK and LAX (certain terminals) in particular. I don't know how airlines make cost decisions about these buses, but they save the hassle of leaving the terminal, taking a bus, then going to another terminal, and re-clearing security.
 
Mir
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:58 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
T1 - Star Alliance

T1 does not have room for all the Star carriers.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
T7 - Everybody else

Owned by BA, who isn't going to want to just give that up to move over to what is arguably an inferior terminal experience in T8.

-Mir
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ipodguy7
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:13 am

Quoting mats (Reply 1):
and American Airlines has this for British Airways connections at Chicago O'Hare

They do? A month ago I flew BNA-ORD on AA connecting onto BA ORD-LHR. We planned a good deal of cushion timing in (6 hrs), and thank god we did. Even travelling in Business Class, and with TSA Precheck (neither of which did us any good at all with regards to the downright disaterous T5 TSA checkpoint- no precheck line, no business class line), it took us well over 1.5 hours to get from AA gate to BA Lounge in T5. Do they really have airside busses? We had to take the landside terminal link train thing.
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jcwr56
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:42 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 3):
Do they really have airside busses? We had to take the landside terminal link train thing.

Yes, At the end of the K concourse there's a shuttle bus, It would have saved you well over 1 hour. You can also thank the TSA for the checkpoint layout, the airlines/city desired something more passenger friendly and the TSA shot down all plans except the one you experienced all in the name of security.
 
jfk777
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:05 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
T1 - Star Alliance
T4 - SkyTeam and VS
T5 - B6, EI, and HA
T7 - Everybody else
T8 - Oneworld

In five years the terminals will NOT look like that. Something will happen at the T2/3 sight, that is too large a sight to ignore and T1 needs more space. Terminals 1 to 4 wil be the core of everything for Skyteam and Star Alliance.

Terminal 6 and its international expansion will be Jetblue. That leaves us with T7 ans BA, nothing has been anounced about them staying or moving to T8. No construction is going on at T8 for an expansion. BA's operation is so large that it could be better staying where it is.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:06 pm

The weirdness of T1 ownership is that KLM colocates with Delta at T4, allowing seamless transfers, but somehow that isn't extended to AF

Star has no incentive to move together anyway since UA has very few connections to sell via JFK

The best model is AA T8 but that's also near saturation, so trying to fit all of BA CX JL there would be monumental. (One thing is clear - AA BA should have their JFK-LHR services depart from the same terminal even if the rest of AA is elsewhere)
 
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tlecam
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
The weirdness of T1 ownership is that KLM colocates with Delta at T4, allowing seamless transfers, but somehow that isn't extended to AF

I think that T4 is actually run by a Dutch corporation.
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Polot
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 7):
I think that T4 is actually run by a Dutch corporation.

Yes, it is run the Schiphol group (obviously the owner of AMS).
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:43 pm

NY History here:

The PA is not your normal landlord

They do not build terminals. Even if they are in a state of decay (like JFK was in the early 90s and EWR and LGA are today).

The only terminals they actively maintained until 1999 were Terminal A at EWR, Terminal B (CTB) at LGA and Terminals 4W 4 and 4E at JFK (Old IAB). The JFK IAB was a disgrace. Something had to be done. They privatized the terminal to Schipol USA JFKIAT LLC. They demolished T4, 4E and 4W and built and operate the new T4.

Sadly, the same thing was not done with the two PA terminals in EWR and LGA. They are the worst in the nation.


Prior to T4 being built, LH/AF/KE/JL got together and saw an opportunity at the old Eastern site. Things were SO BAD in T4, they decided to build their own terminal. It opened in the mid 90s and was the first terminal built at JFK in close to 30 years.

Across the field, BA (Seeing their new terminal threatened by T1 and T4) underwent a major renovation and expansion.


Terminal 8 is a Johnny come lately. Built a decade later to replace the T8/T9 nightmare complex.

Terminal 5/6 and its development came much later. The airline didn't even exist when most of the other stuff was planned and built.

KLM and Delta together at T4 is shear luck. KLM has been in that building since they started serving JFK 50 years ago.




Understand, there will be no ALLIANCE DEDICATED terminals because that would involve an ENGAGED airport authority that PLANS and BUILDS off a master plan.

What you have at JFK (which is actually pretty good) is private business taking matters into their own hands and creating the best situation they can (when they can afford to do it) for themselves and their customers.



If BA moves out of T7, the most likely scenario is B6 extending and incorporating T7 into T5. This was just alluded to by the B6 CEO. They will run the terminal for their international users.


The PA is not going to build, renovate, plan or run anything. Nor should they given the history above!
 
jfk777
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:43 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
The best model is AA T8 but that's also near saturation, so trying to fit all of BA CX JL there would be monumental. (One thing is clear - AA BA should have their JFK-LHR services depart from the same terminal even if the rest of AA is elsewhere)

with all the Oneworld airlines using Terminal 8 its time for A to build ir out to its original specs or even for British Airways and Cathay Operations.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
with all the Oneworld airlines using Terminal 8 its time for A to build ir out to its original specs or even for British Airways and Cathay Operations.

Agreed. I'm all in favor of alliances co-locating under the same roof to allow seamless transfer experiences.

CX isn't the issue here ... BA is. Their departures are very much clustered together in the 6-9pm bank, so even if T8 expands, they would need a lot of 747/777 stands to accommodate these near wingtip-to-wingtip departures.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:08 pm

Who's paying for the $500 million - $1 billion expansion to T8?

BA? When they already have their own (rather nice) terminal?

AA? When the merger closed, they told employees JFK would be overlooked to feed PHL. They have since backtracked a bit...but are they willing to pour more capital investment into T8?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
The PA is not your normal landlord

I appreciate your insights but it should also be said that no airport authority will be able to build and/or reconfigure buildings at large multi-tenant hubs faster than airline alliances are made or broken. CO was in bed with NW and AF but has bolted for UA, US was going to sleep with UA but ended up with AA, VS is now shacked up with DL but who knows how long that will last, etc.

PA also has the issue that every dollar it spends at an airport competes with bridges, tunnels, etc. The main reason it is spending as much as it does is because airport taxes force them to.
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commavia
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
CX isn't the issue here ... BA is. Their departures are very much clustered together in the 6-9pm bank, so even if T8 expands, they would need a lot of 747/777 stands to accommodate these near wingtip-to-wingtip departures.

I doubt it would be much of a problem.

The north pier of the main terminal was originally designed to have, if I remember correctly, eight gates. Today only two are built. I doubt it would be much trouble to fit BA's operations into a T8 expanded with six more gates. Besides, even when including other existing T7 oneworld users (Cathay, Iberia, QANTAS), the majority of their flights operate outside the peak 15:00-21:00 window when gates are at more of a premium. For large (non-peak) portions of the rest of the day, T8 has tons of space.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Who's paying for the $500 million - $1 billion expansion to T8?

BA? When they already have their own (rather nice) terminal?

AA? When the merger closed, they told employees JFK would be overlooked to feed PHL. They have since backtracked a bit...but are they willing to pour more capital investment into T8?

My guess is that eventually all the parties involved will figure out some way to finance it, because it would elevate the experience for the AA and BA (not to mention other oneworld partner carrier) passengers - and there are lots of them - that connect between the two at JFK.
 
apodino
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:36 pm

It should be noted that BAs lease on Terminal 7 ends next year, and that with the joint venture, BA and AA have made it pretty clear that they want BA to be in T8. The expansion in T8 is going to happen, its just a matter of when.

As for the alliances...what I was thinking could happen is that when the current T2 gets razed, and a new building built in its place, it could also include post security connections to the existing T1 and T4. This could have the effect of allowing T1 to become a SkyTeam terminal for the foreign SkyTeam members, the new gates for Delta Domestic (I wonder if it would make sense to just build new gates as an expansion of T4, and T4 for Delta International flights. Then I would see the other half of T4 being used by the non alligned carriers. T5 would still be B6 and EI obviously. T7 could make sense as the Star Alliance terminal. The problem then becomes that aside from UA, the terminal is a majority One World. The question then becomes if T8 is expanded, could it absorb all the OW carriers that currently operate in T8, plus JL from T1?


In an ideal world the entire JFK terminal complex would be razed and replaced with a much more modern facility that could handle all airlines with a more central complex. This would help ATC out alot too. However that was not the direction the PA went years ago when JFK was built. So we are stuck with the current inefficient design.
 
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Polot
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 15):
T5 would still be B6 and EI obviously. T7 could make sense as the Star Alliance terminal. The problem then becomes that aside from UA, the terminal is a majority One World. The question then becomes if T8 is expanded, could it absorb all the OW carriers that currently operate in T8, plus JL from T1?

As someone mentioned earlier, it is not really that important if the Star carriers are all under 1 roof as a majority of their traffic is O&D. They don't have a Star partner with a hub (or focus city, or whatever) in JFK. If they really want to serve NYC but need to rely on connecting passengers they are going to go to EWR, not JFK. So they will just fly to wherever has space and could accommodate them.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 15):


In an ideal world the entire JFK terminal complex would be razed and replaced with a much more modern facility that could handle all airlines with a more central complex. This would help ATC out alot too. However that was not the direction the PA went years ago when JFK was built. So we are stuck with the current inefficient design.

It was called JFK 2000.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...nal-port-authority-kennedy-airport

Good synopsis.

It led to the $100 million tunnel to nowhere.

Multi-terminal JFK was never supposed to be rebuilt.

The PA couldn't get the job done.

But they spent plenty of time trying.


Understand, the PA represents NYC well. It gets things done in spite of itself. The demand is high enough that traffic has grown to record levels at JFK and airlines built their own facilities with no master plan from the PA. It is almost a miracle that anything got done in that environment. But it did. Much like it is a miracle that NY keeps growing and adding jobs in spite of being miserably expensive and unfriendly to businesses (taxes/regulation). Somehow it just works. Until people snap and move to Florida...that's where B6 comes in.
 
apodino
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 17):
It was called JFK 2000.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/198...nal-port-authority-kennedy-airport

Good synopsis.

It led to the $100 million tunnel to nowhere.

Multi-terminal JFK was never supposed to be rebuilt.

The PA couldn't get the job done.

But they spent plenty of time trying.

Interesting article. Some of what the article mentions happened, but in a different light. The people mover at EWR became the Airtrain. The central terminal never got built in JFK, nor the TPA and MCO style trams, but parts of the transportation center as mentioned were built in what became federal circle. The Airtrain JFK wasn't built as the article mentions but it was built as a pre security link.
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Owned by BA, who isn't going to want to just give that up to move over to what is arguably an inferior terminal experience in T8.

Why is T8 inferior? Its much more spacious than T7, which at the 4-8 pm hour is people on top of people. Its a bit of a tight squeeze and horrible experience, especially prior to boarding a people on top of people flight.
 
commavia
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 19):
Why is T8 inferior? Its much more spacious than T7, which at the 4-8 pm hour is people on top of people. Its a bit of a tight squeeze and horrible experience, especially prior to boarding a people on top of people flight.

  

T7 can be pretty rough at peak times. When I left out of there last summer on the morning BA departure, T7 was a breeze, with little else going or coming except United flights out of the gates on the east side of the terminal. However, when I left out of T7 last winter on one of the more-than-hourly evening BA departures, T7 was absolutely packed with almost no room to move around.

T8, by comparison, is so easy, and has plenty of room to move around - even during peak evening hours.
 
jfk777
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
BA? When they already have their own (rather nice) terminal?

BA's lease at "nice" Terminal 7 end at the end of 2015. No annoucement of lease extensions have been announced. T7 is now 45 years old, it has issues that old JFK building have had in the past. It may be time to knock it down.
 
BA0197
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
T7 can be pretty rough at peak times. When I left out of there last summer on the morning BA departure, T7 was a breeze, with little else going or coming except United flights out of the gates on the east side of the terminal. However, when I left out of T7 last winter on one of the more-than-hourly evening BA departures, T7 was absolutely packed with almost no room to move around.

T8, by comparison, is so easy, and has plenty of room to move around - even during peak evening hours.

I generally agree with this. However, the BA lounges, including the Concorde Room, Galleries First and Galleries Club, are unparalleled and IMHO the best lounge complex in the USA!

It has been rumoured that it is BA's lounges that make it redundant to move terminals to consolidate with AA. Apparently, BA and AA agree that BA are best left in T7 (and there is not a massive amount of conx traffic).
 
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PW100
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 22):
It has been rumoured that it is BA's lounges that make it redundant to move terminals to consolidate with AA

Why couldn't those lounges be (re-) constructed in an expanded T8? Just curious. I don't know them, never been in T7 or T8, only in T3 and T4.

Thanks,
PW100
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flyinghippo
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Quoting BA0197 (Reply 22):
I generally agree with this. However, the BA lounges, including the Concorde Room, Galleries First and Galleries Club, are unparalleled and IMHO the best lounge complex in the USA!

It has been rumoured that it is BA's lounges that make it redundant to move terminals to consolidate with AA. Apparently, BA and AA agree that BA are best left in T7 (and there is not a massive amount of conx traffic).

I was at their Galleries lounge last year at T7, and I have to say it was... OK... not too impressed. BA can easily build their own lounge if T8 is expanded, and I think it makes the most sense if they really want to serve their customers who needs to connect to destinations beyond JFK.
 
Mir
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 19):
Why is T8 inferior?

The only thing that T8 has going for it is that it is aesthetically nicer than T7. Everything else is either even or weighted in T7's favor. AA really dropped the ball with the food and shopping options in T8, which are really bad for a terminal that size.

-Mir
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Curiousflyer
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:56 pm

Agreed on the Galleries lounge, and business class dining area, and elite TSA checkpoint at T7: they are not that good. T7 is OK, not world-class.

And JFK has so much O&D, plenty of ynderused aieports have space for connections.
 
nottarockstar
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:29 am

I've never been in a terminal the size of T8 with so little dining/bar options. It's like an empty warehouse.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
AA really dropped the ball with the food and shopping options in T8, which are really bad for a terminal that size.

How much should T8 have? There are 20 eateries/bars in T8 post security:

Full Service Restaurants
* Bobby Van's (Steak house)
* O'Neal's (Irish)
* Soho Bistro (Contemporary American)

Eateries/Fast Food
* EuroPan Cafe
* McDonald's
* Wok & Roll
* Abitinos
* Auntie Anne's
* Cibo Express
* Cascata
* Au Bon Pain
* Brooklyn National Deli
* Soho Bistro Express

Bars
* New York Sports Bar
* Vino Volo
* Drinks Martini Bar

Coffee houses:
* Starbucks (2)
* Juan Valdez Cafe
* Dunkin Donuts (opening soon)

There is a Duty Free Mall plus 20 additional retailers.

There are over 40 options for shopping and dining post-security at T8.

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/jfk-shops-restaurants-services.html
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delimit
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:37 am

This topic seems to come up annually.

SkyTeam has no need to colocate. The majority of connecting traffic from AF and KL happens at Detroit and Atlanta. The majority from DL happens at CDG or AMS. JFK is a high yield O&D market. The alliance is far better served dedicating those seats to people traveling to NYC. Sure, some connections happen; but they are almost besides the point.

Star has no need to colocate. United has almost no presence at JFK.

T1 is not going to be any alliance's terminal, unless someone wants to buy one or two of the 4 owners out.
 
BritishB747
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RE: Consolidating Alliances At JFK

Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:40 am

When I flew back from JFK last year I was on the last BA flight from T7. I found it quite a pleasant experience. Quick to check in, quick to clear security, wasn't too busy and not much walking either. I would rank it number 1 in terms of terminals I have used in the US (not a lot).
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