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Cubsrule
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 97):
I'll let this article explain it:

What does the article have to do with air travel demand?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
klwright69
Posts: 2731
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:56 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 49):
ATL and MIA are closer to all of South America, but if you are flying from west of the Mississippi, than IAH would be the shortest connection. Also there is plenty of trade between both Texas and California and Chile, that could provide a unique market that wouldn't make much sense connecting in ATL.
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 53):
Give me a break. The South America and Latin flights are FULL of people making connections from your so called "majorly inconvenient" eastern locations.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 65):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 46):
People backtrack all the time to get the cheapest fare. I am flying way out of my way today to get a cheap fare for example.

But that's the point. It's a disadvantage because you have to offer the cheapest fare AND a longer routing. So lower revenue and higher costs.

But, I am countering that many are always saying on a.net how no one backtracks because it is longer. Customers do it all the time. And yesterday, I was backtracking part of the way on Singapore Airlines, not exactly a third rate airline giving me the good fare. It fills otherwise empty seats for the carrier. Would anyone argue SQ was giving me a good fare because Singapore is a poor out of the way hub?

[Edited 2014-08-21 05:57:47]

[Edited 2014-08-21 05:58:28]
 
Thomaas
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:10 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 78):

No. It all depends on the passenger. If a passenger is a STAR guy, more than likely will pay more to fly to IAH versus being a nobody on a SKYTeam flight through ATL.

what is defined as "less convenient" itinerary? Simply looking at a map on where one is going?

This whole notion of IAH being a terrible hub for the America's is the most ridiculous comment I think I may have seen on here.
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 79):
And yes, more convenient generally means, less trip duration, shorter layovers etc etc etc. Having a more direct routing will generally result in shorter trip durations, which translates directly to better convenience ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 87):

NYC actually contributes quite a bit to IAH's deep South America flights. Not nearly as much the Northern South America flights. People will go out of the way for their miles.
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 101):
But, I am countering that many are always saying on a.net how no one backtracks because it is longer. Customers do it all the time. And yesterday, I was backtracking part of the way on Singapore Airlines, not exactly a third rate airline giving me the good fare. It fills otherwise empty seats for the carrier. Would anyone argue SQ was giving me a good fare because Singapore is a poor out of the way hub?

At the end of the day, LONGER alternatives are typically cheaper. An airline can only charge a premium if the flight is either direct, one of the shortest options even if you connect or offers amenities and service that commands higher ticket prices. None of that would be the case when flying UA from the east coast to South America. Not only does the airline spend more because if needs to fly you a few hours longer on the plane but it also gets less revenue doing so. It isn't that hard to understand ... IAH is a good hub for certain things but it certainly isn't the MIA of South America.

Here's an example:
NYC-GIG

TAM Direct 10h 15m
AA Direct 10h 15m
AA via MIA 13h 15m
CM via PTY 13h 40m
DL via ATL 13h 45m
UA via IAH 15h 13m

UA is 5 hours longer than the fastest option on the route. Hard to justify any sort of premium over any of the faster alternatives.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6228
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
What does the article have to do with air travel demand?

It doesn't. Speaking to the regions as a whole.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 99):
I've seen many claims that Dallas is a business hub and a corporate headquarters, yet Houston is home to more large companies than Dallas, and it has major operating divisions for just about all of the ten largest oil companies in the world. Without the TV series, Dallas' reputation would not be as well established.

Just because Houston's GDP is a bit larger and they have more fortune 500 companies does not mean Houston generates more demand to every point in the nation and on the globe. You have to remember, Houston's economy is far less diverse than Dallas' is. Houston is going to generate a lot of demand to places that match what the economy as (i.e. Energy and Medical). Dallas, because its economy is more diverse, is going to generate more demand to places that match its different sectors particularly on a domestic level.

That last statement was just a shot at Dallas.

Again toxtethogrady, the numbers don't lie. Your inclinations are off.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 98):
but it's quite interesting to see them delineate IAH to a totally different region

Thats because they are in different regions.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6228
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 102):
UA is 5 hours longer than the fastest option on the route. Hard to justify any sort of premium over any of the faster alternatives.

Again, brand loyalty covers the gap. If they are a UA premium flyer, they will pay more to go through IAH vs. ATL or MIA.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 100):
What does the article have to do with air travel demand?

You don't get air travel without lots of employed people earning good wages. But in this instance, the article was intended to outline catchment areas for various large cities. It may be a stretch to say that being a dominant city in a defined region indicates where the connecting traffic would come from, but in the instance of Houston within the Gulf Coast region, there's no other city of more than 2 million people within the region.

Continental never established a national brand when it existed, so its hubs never benefited to the fullest extent from connecting feed. United should have been able to accomplish that, but Smisek has been too worried about cutting costs and not enough about generating revenue.

And I happened to stumble across a missed opportunity for UA - a moribund refinery that was brought out of mothballs and now produces jet fuel from Eagle Ford crude:

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2014/08/21/e...ifts-blue-dolphin-energy-refinery/
 
toltommy
Posts: 2809
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 26):
WN has been regularly slammed by them for their free bag policy, and they claim that WN would make a lot more cash if they started charging for checked bags like other carriers. WN responded that such a move would alienate its loyal customers, many of which patronize the airline solely for that benefit.

Problem is that the street did not see that when the other legacy carriers added bag fees. CO held out, hoping to see a shift in business from other carriers to them since they were not charging for bags. They didn't see any such shift and added the bag fees. The street realizes WN is leaving cash on the table better than WN does. WN's problem is that they've painted themselves into a corner with "Bags Fly Free". The truth is that there is a cost to carrying those bags.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
/762/763/764/772/788/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440 /700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:26 pm

It's not a cost; it's a foregone revenue stream. Given WN's overall profitability, it isn't missed.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3520
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 104):

exactly. Which seems to be missing from a lot of posters arguments how IAH is such a terrible place. As I pointed out, a STAR passenger is more than likely to spend more money on a "less convenient" route through IAH versus being a regular cattle call on DL through ATL or AA through MIA.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18430
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 102):
Here's an example:
NYC-GIG

TAM Direct 10h 15m
AA Direct 10h 15m
AA via MIA 13h 15m
CM via PTY 13h 40m
DL via ATL 13h 45m
UA via IAH 15h 13m

This is really overblown, as plenty of people connect out of the way, and if there was such a strong premium for the most direct line of flight routing, CLTGIG would still be here with us today. Moreover, some of the top flows to Brazil from ATL and CLT all originate in MCO and Florida.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Indy
Posts: 4945
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:46 pm

"We Have Full Confidence In IAH "

Man, is that ever the kiss of death. Like "my door is always open", "what do you think?" and "your jobs are safe."
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 102):
Here's an example:
NYC-GIG

TAM Direct 10h 15m
AA Direct 10h 15m
AA via MIA 13h 15m
CM via PTY 13h 40m
DL via ATL 13h 45m
UA via IAH 15h 13m

UA is 5 hours longer than the fastest option on the route. Hard to justify any sort of premium over any of the faster alternatives.

Actually your solution is only assuming 100% UA metal. If a pax is willing to deal with just 95% UA metal, the best routing is EWR-UA-GRU-AD-SDU (of course the less than ideal transfer experience at GRU is balanced by city-center arrival to SDU, so this is purely academic)
 
BC77008
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:48 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 102):
At the end of the day, LONGER alternatives are typically cheaper. An airline can only charge a premium if the flight is either direct, one of the shortest options even if you connect or offers amenities and service that commands higher ticket prices.

Take a New Yorker that flies all the time out of Newark. His preferred carrier is United, and he enjoys gold status with the airline. He flies all the time from EWR to his regional sites in PIT, DTW, CLE, CVG, SDF, etc. etc. and now he has a big conference coming up in Buenos Aires. Which airline do you think he will fly? A) American via MIA? B) Delta via ATL? or C) United via IAH? The correct answer is C
MY favorite airline and hub is bigger and/or better than YOUR favorite airline and hub!
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3520
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 110):

not really. IAH is not going anywhere and we all know that. If IAH were to be emptied out, it would mean UA is pulling out of the market for everything south of the US border. And we know that is *not* going to happen.
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 113):
If IAH were to be emptied out, it would mean UA is pulling out of the market for everything south of the US border.

Actually, it means UA is giving up the ghost.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:13 pm

My comment was just made in regards to everyone portraying IAH as the ideal South American hub. It is only good for half the country and otherwise involves backtracking. If one exclusively flies UA, then yes it is the only option. You have to remember that a lot of companies are not bound by a single airline anymore. They either A) choose the cheapest tickets or B) choose the fastest routing to get their workers to their destination as fast as possible. From the east coat, UA offers neither of them.

[Edited 2014-08-21 11:14:49]
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6228
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 115):
If one exclusively flies UA, then yes it is the only option

And there are many, many people in the NYC area who do just this out of choice, not because they are forced to.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:45 pm

I recall many people on here were saying at AA FFs from NYC would gladly fly NYC-DFW-HKG just to stay on AA.

I think a lot of the decision on where to connect might boil down to total travel time. If you can get a shorter layover in IAH and get to your destination in roughly the same time as a shorter flight through ATL/CLT/MIA but with a longer layover, the traveler is still coming out even. Depends on if you want to sit in a plane longer or sit in an airport terminal longer.

If you want the miles, then length of flight(s) makes no difference.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3520
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 115):

it is very ideal though. funneling almost the entire country into a southern location.
 
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drerx7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:58 pm

Yea, the argument that IAH is mooted. People will travel out of the way for money and miles. I flew IAH-CLT-CUN because it was $300pp cheaper.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:10 pm

By some of the Logic I see here Unless everybody is flying to Latin America out of Miami an airline doesn't stand a chance.
Well that's a bunch of BUNK!! Flat out Plain and simple!!! Miami isn't big enough to have Hubs by all the Big 3 as a matter of factNot even 2
airlines. United is right where it's supposed to BE and IAH is doing exactly whatit's supposed to DO. We can fly all of mexico central and South America from IAH
AS the opportunities present themselves, All of this Armchair Airline CEO business is getting off the tracks. If anyone can fly Mexick Central and south America from ATL, and DFW?
It can damn sure be done at IAH and with great GUSTO as well. Even the A319 can go deep south and the B767 can go clear to the southern Tip/We're already flying IAH EZE every night.
We fly an EXTEN
SIVE route map to Mexico and Central America where is it we NEED to fly that will make Money?? we have very close
friends in COPA and we're making More friends in the area with *A. This conversation is purely academic because it has Nothing to DO with reality..
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 117):
I think a lot of the decision on where to connect might boil down to total travel time. If you can get a shorter layover in IAH and get to your destination in roughly the same time as a shorter flight through ATL/CLT/MIA but with a longer layover, the traveler is still coming out even.

Yes, though there are other factors too. Some folks like to have their long flights at the beginning (or at the end) of their journeys. Some folks, especially those in premium cabins for the longhauls, might like to avoid RJs. Miles traveled isn't likely to be a determining factor for very many people.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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drerx7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 121):
. Miles traveled isn't likely to be a determining factor for very many people.

But price is...
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:10 am

Meanwhile, there's plenty of reason for UA to stay at IAH...

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/b...ng-far-exceeds-past-two-years.html
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 14):
That said, Smisek seems determined to shave every last cost off this airline, at which point he will have a lean, mean insignificant little nothing.

He's trying to make the pizza so cheap no one will want it....hmm..where have we heard this before?!   

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
I don't know that I'd go that far. It's quite out of the way for folks in places like MSP and MCI.

Back in the CO days, I had no problem connecting through IAH to get from SLC to anywhere. MSP and YYC included.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:15 pm

It seems like most are in agreement that IAH has it's strong and weak points for Int'l markets south of the US.

Mexico,...very good coverage for most of the US; Deep South America,...workable but not perfect for eastern 1/3; and Latin America/Caribbean,...not very good at all for eastern 1/3 of the US. Assuming that IAD could technically funnel traffic to the Caribbean/Latin as well, it's mainly the markets south of a line between IAD and IAH that are the

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=iah-iad...+gru,+sju,+sdq,+aua,+nas,+gua,+pos

For the armchair CEOs, what's the solution? Is the Caribbean traffic valuable enough to create a small, connecting mini-hub somewhere in the SE to try to capture this traffic or is it smarter to just focus on the rest of the country and let DL/AA/JBU/SWA duke it out in this part of the country?

If UA/*A could benefit from a small, SE hub down the road, what city would work and what airport has the capacity? MCO/TPA? Is a mini-hub even worthwhile for 1 or 2 banks a day?

[Edited 2014-08-22 11:17:08]
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 125):
For the armchair CEOs, what's the solution?

What's the problem? I continue to believe that United can do more to strengthen the hub - including more large RJs and mainline, and less 50-seaters - but I don't know why a "solution" is required, because IAH is a great hub as it is.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 125):
Is the Caribbean traffic valuable enough to create a small, connecting mini-hub somewhere in the SE to try to capture this traffic or is it smarter to just focus on the rest of the country and let DL/AA/JBU/SWA duke it out in this part of the country?

Absent a government-sanctioned monopoly, no U.S. airline can win everywhere. Different airlines have unique strengths. United's hub structure might not be quite as optimal for, say, the Caribbean, as compared to AA. But on the flip side, AA's hub structure is far inferior for the Rocky Mountain region. And on and on.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 125):
If UA/*A could benefit from a small, SE hub down the road, what city would work and what airport has the capacity? MCO/TPA? Is a mini-hub even worthwhile for 1 or 2 banks a day?

Outside of MIA, I don't think Florida is really a viable place for a network carrier to have a "hub" - "mini" or otherwise. The markets are either not large enough, or more often, are not premium enough. In United's case, they can continue to use EWR as a huge gateway to the Caribbean - the vast majority of demand from the U.S. to the Caribbean is from the east coast, anyway.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14861
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 126):
In United's case, they can continue to use EWR as a huge gateway to the Caribbean - the vast majority of demand from the U.S. to the Caribbean is from the east coast, anyway.

Yes, and people forget that because EWR is quite a bit east of some of the "obvious" Caribbean hubs, it's not that far out of the way even for some folks in the mid-Atlantic. RIC-EWR-SJU, for instance, is 200 miles shorter than RIC-ATL-SJU and just about the same length as RIC-MIA-SJU.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 124):
He's trying to make the pizza so cheap no one will want it....hmm..where have we heard this before?!

Worse, he's like the guy who runs Papa John's, who insists he can't pay for his workers' health insurance because it will add ten cents to the price of a pizza.  
 
toxtethogrady
Topic Author
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 125):
It seems like most are in agreement that IAH has it's strong and weak points for Int'l markets south of the US.

The weak point appears to be United itself. Evidence of this can be seen in the Houston Airport System's July 2014 traffic numbers, which show international is up 8% and domestic is down fractionally. What's going on? You have to look at the numbers for HOU, where Southwest has boosted service; HOU had a 17% jump in traffic and seems well on its way to seeing 12+ million passengers.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6228
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: United: We Have Full Confidence In IAH

Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 129):
The weak point appears to be United itself.

Oh, get real. The previous statement was true, every hub has its strong and week point. Thats is irrelevant to who is running it.

IAH's strong points are:

1) Its in a great location to capture traffic between:
-West Coast/Mountain West/Texas/parts of the South/Parts of the Midwest to Latin America
-Deep South/Gulf Coast to Asia
-Domestically between anywhere and Texas/Southeast

2) Its rich in O&D to oil destinations across the globe as well as to every major city across the US. Its also rich in O&D to some smaller destinations in the Gulf, Midwest, and Mountain West.

3) Its a high fare hub.

IAH's weak points are:

1) Its low in O&D to most smaller cities across the Midwest, Great Plains, and Northeast

2) Its not in an ideal location to capture domestic flows beyond anything to/from Texas, Southwest/Southeast, Southeast/Northwest, and Northeast/Southwest.

So yes, IAH (just like every other hub in the US) has its strong and weak points.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!

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