29erUSA187
Topic Author
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:03 am

Hello all,
Even though I live near SAN, I fly frequently to BOS and stay for long periods of time. I enjoy spotting at BOS when I am there, especially from central parking. I noticed that many other regions/airports have their own threads, but BOS does not.

In recent months, a lot has happened at BOS:

HU begins 4x weekly service to PEK on a 788

CX announces service to HKG on a 77W

Emirates up gauges from 77L to 77W

I am not sure of this but I also believe that LH announced an up gauge to a 748 for one of its flights to FRA.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:23 am

I would concur...I think it's time for a dedicated BOS thread...it's becoming hard to keep up with all the recent good news in separate threads  

On a side note I swung by Logan last week on the way back to HNL and saw the Emirates 777 on hard stand and the Turkish A340 taxing in while I was there. Also saw the SATA A310 on final. Cool stuff...different from my new home

Sometimes I miss living in Boston
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:37 am

There's a lot to discuss in this thread.

-US/AA merger Implications

Will they cut or add service? BOS-SFO is one addition that always comes up. It was smart to get out of BOS-RIC as well.



-B6 Expansion

Since they have received the gates from UA, B6 hasn't added too much sans some leisure saturday only seasonal destinations (UVF, POP, LIR) and increased BOS-RIC. The operation is supposed to hit 150 flights at some point. Will there be increased frequencies or new destinations (ATL, CLE?)



-Gate Shuffling

A lot of this depends on what US and AA do. EK will be departing out of C next month but will EI follow? Will AA/US consolidate in B? Will WN move to B? VX NK and AC could also be bounced around.




-Domestic Expansion from other airlines

WN will do BOS-DAL sometime in 2015 (recent schedule expansion today does not have it)
Will DL add more p2p at some point? They seem to be adding a few domestic seasonals here and there (BOS-FLL)
Peoples Express may also double their BOS-PHF route

-International Expansion

Massport is still hot on the following destinations

TLV
PVG
GRU
MEX
MXP

Personally I only agree with 3: PVG, MEX (if Volaris tries it with good connections) and maybe MXP (if done with BOS-MXP-AUH on AZ/EY). I still would like to see a seasonal BOS-BCN flight and BOS-ICN on KE.

Past Massport presentations have hinted at wanting DEL or BOM but I think they realize having 1-3 ME3's is a better option.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 2):
Past Massport presentations have hinted at wanting DEL or BOM but I think they realize having 1-3 ME3's is a better option.

I doubt if either Air-India or Jet Airways would be keen to enter the market from BOS for DEL to BOM. Air-India only flies two US destinations - JFK and ORD. The rest such as IAD, LAX are terminated. There is prospect with the airline but depends on political will. With a new progressive party ruling India now, there maybe some hopes. Etihad has staked claim for 24% of Jet Airways so I think most likely the new sub-owners may route it through their Abu-Dhabi hub if they enter BOS. There are good prospects in BOS. I don't even want to mention the US based carriers - their apathy towards Boston is well known.

Your points are accurate - I think it all depends on the decision from US/AA on what they plan to do with Terminal B. Thatmaybe a big game-changer. I haven't seen anything big from DL too - they keep mentioning about big expansion but besides some seasonal flights to LAS and CUN which are anyways terminated for the season - I don't see anything big from them as well.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:31 pm

I've been to Logan a few times this Summer as all of my family lives in Europe and this is the time of year when they come to visit. Terminal E has become an absolute nightmare during the afternoon rush. This so called "rush" used to be only a couple of hours long but these days it seems to start around 3pm and last all the way until 8PM. On one of the trips a SATA A310 was parked at Gate C16. That's right, terminal C. My guess is that there were no available gates or hard stands at terminal E. Last week it took my family 2 hours and 15 minutes to clear immigration and customs after arriving from FRA. And now they are building 3 A380 gates. I can't wait to see what a bigger nightmare this place will become when you start adding A380's to the mix.   
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12526
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 4):

It's too bad, because they did the whole Terminal E upgrade in the late '90s, and now with BOS's apparently steadily increasing international traffic, it's swamped again.

I haven't flown through E in several years, so can't comment from personal experience.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
29erUSA187
Topic Author
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:04 pm

If massport wants more expansion, it may be worth it to add a few gates to terminal E. It is crowded beyond belief, and a larger facility would do wonders for the terminal.
 
cloudboy
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:14 pm

There is a New England aviation thread out there some where. But in regards to Logan itself, I think the real solution would be to enable international arrivals, particularly for smaller aircraft (narrowbodies) to one of the other terminals. The expansion they did in terminal E I dont think really added much - in fact I dont think it added any gates. Of course much of the problem isn't gate space but processing itself. If they could make that part more efficient it would have a huge effect.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting iyerhari (Reply 3):
I don't even want to mention the US based carriers - their apathy towards Boston is well known.

On domestic routes, I don't believe any domestic carrier flies a single widebody into Boston. Do I have that correct? Some possibilities that I quickly checked were:
DL on the ATL & DTW/MSP runs
UA on their flights to ORD and LAX/SFO and DEN (a 753 occasionally pops up)
AA on their DFW & LAX flights (Boeing might as well have built AA's 738 production line in Boston)

Obviously if carriers like JetBlue and Virgin America didn't exist, it would be a different story. But they do...and it's not. And also as obviously, many widebody jets we miss today are now sitting in the desert or holding FiFi's cat food. So I do understand that average plane size is falling. So the airlines are playing with the toys they have.

One might quickly rationalize that frequency rules...until you figure that UA fields no more daily flights now to ORD than they did a decade ago (11-12). And today, SIX of those 11 are on ERJs and CRJs...an unheard-of situation for such a supposedly 'marquee' route.

As for AA, one might also think that their much-ballyhooed A321 would show up in Boston for the LAX run. But the 738 seems to rule the roost for Boston...for better or worse.
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3916
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting iyerhari (Reply 3):
Air-India only flies two US destinations - JFK and ORD.

Three-- JFK, EWR, and ORD.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 8):
As for AA, one might also think that their much-ballyhooed A321 would show up in Boston for the LAX run. But the 738 seems to rule the roost for Boston...for better or worse.

AA only has two of their new two-cabin a321s in the fleet right now. When they receive more, or when they really start crossfleeting on a higher scale, I'm confident that LAX-BOS will see the a321.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 8):
As for AA, one might also think that their much-ballyhooed A321 would show up in Boston for the LAX run. But the 738 seems to rule the roost for Boston...for better or worse.

Chris, I do understand your point and I think the frequency is near about the same compared to what it was a decade back. JetBlue or Virgin America may offer options but simply put they are going to fly the same routine destinations that is being serviced by the legacy carriers with some minor exceptions. I just fail to understand that despite having world-class consulting firms headquartered in BOS or asset management companies in financial services, it's impossible to fill a domestic plane to a destination like say SNA or XNA to some big-name client locations. I once remember having to travel to SDF and once spoke with the airport director of that place - he said simply put carriers didn't have the appetite despite having demand. In any case, it's quite noteworthy that international carrier CEOs are putting their education after studying in BOS to good use than their domestic counterparts.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:03 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 7):
Of course much of the problem isn't gate space but processing itself. If they could make that part more efficient it would have a huge effect.

There are problems everywhere at terminal E. In the baggage area they have to remove the bags from the carrousel ASAP to make room for other arriving flights. So after you spend 2 hours in immigration your bags could be anywhere on the floor of the baggage claiming area. The departures hall is a zoo with lines out the door. Processing of incoming intl arriving passengers is slow but that's a system wide Federal problem, not just BOS. We have a system of questionable value that is not scalable: limited entry gateways and a requirement for a retina scan, finger printing, and questioning.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:06 pm

'My' airport (MHT) is a pretty forlorn place these days. I did an awful lot of business flying out of there, on UA 757s and USAirways A320s and A321s. They were always full or nearly so. People think I must have two heads when mentioning this, but the place was hopping until 2005...which was the high-water mark for the airport. Now, I take the very nice Boston Express bus to Logan at a RT cost of $30. That's probably a day's parking at Logan (or two days at MHT) and my trips are about a week long. So I'm on the 'plus' side of the ledger by using this bus. On trips to London I usually use Air Canada on Boston-Toronto/Montreal-London routings. Coming back the whole customs & immigration is a breeze; they almost wave me right through.

I do recall that when Big Dig construction was at its peak, Massport was eager to encourage the use of MHT and PVD. Once the construction was done, they 'discouraged' it...and both MHT and PVD suffered.

I don't know if it is fair to say that Logan is seeing a 'renaissance' of sorts (practically all the new service is international). But I'm wondering whether Logan & Massport will start 'encouraging' the use of MHT and PVD once again, as they see more stress placed on their infrastructure.

As for me...a NH resident whose property actually goes right to the Massachusetts border...I'm happy to use Logan until and unless things start turning up at MHT. With the bus, getting to and from Logan isn't the rigmarole it used to be. So now I can text while someone ELSE drives  
 
tharanga
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:29 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 7):
There is a New England aviation thread out there some where.

Yes there is/was. I don't think it's been active for a while. but given how BOS is exciting these days, and MHT/PVD are very much not, I say let's go ahead and have the BOS-centric conversation.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):
On trips to London I usually use Air Canada on Boston-Toronto/Montreal-London routings. Coming back the whole customs & immigration is a breeze; they almost wave me right through.

Glad to see that ! Seems like AC's strategy to connect Americans through Canada is catching on !

There were tons of Americans on my flight from YUL to CDG last summer. With customs issues as described above, there should be even more of you guys doing the same.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 4):
Last week it took my family 2 hours and 15 minutes to clear immigration and customs after arriving from FRA.

That's just insane.

Seems like they need more floor space for some additional processing facilities ASAP.

YUL handles more passengers going through customs/immigration than BOS does (8.7 million vs 5.7 million), and yet during peak evening hours, I have never waited more than 1 hour form the time I left the aircraft til I was curbside with my bags in hand.

Massport should get a move on and remedy the issue. Seems like there is room to the west to expand terminal E. Is that a possibility?

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting iyerhari (Reply 10):
I just fail to understand that despite having world-class consulting firms headquartered in BOS or asset management companies in financial services, it's impossible to fill a domestic plane to a destination like say SNA or XNA to some big-name client locations. I once remember having to travel to SDF and once spoke with the airport director of that place - he said simply put carriers didn't have the appetite despite having demand.

For the traditional carriers, I think it's because it doesn't fit the hub and spoke model. Boston is not a hub. The hub model will collapse if traffic from places like Boston goes direct instead of being funneled through the hubs.

It's particularly noticeable in a city like Boston because it's a relatively large city and is the largest metropolitan area in the states without a hub.

With all of the consolidation, it does seem there is an opportunity for one of the legacies to grow their presence in Boston (not to hub status but larger market share); IMO it would either be the new AA/US or Delta. It remains to be seen whether or not they think it makes sense to do so.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
alphaomega
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Seems like they need more floor space for some additional processing facilities ASAP.

Not an issue of space, just CBP staff   same story around the country. Most nights its the non-US line which is 2hrs+, the US line is usually quite short as they can use the kiosks.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
Massport should get a move on and remedy the issue. Seems like there is room to the west to expand terminal E. Is that a possibility?

Yes, but will take a few years (2017-ish) and add 4 gates to the terminal.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting tlecam (Reply 15):
The hub model will collapse if traffic from places like Boston goes direct instead of being funneled through the hubs.

Rubbish. If what you say is true, then there wouldn't be such flights as PIT-CDG on DL, or RDU-LHR on AA, or any one of the non-hub AC flights to LHR. Not every flight has to pass by a hub. If demand is there, then eventually someone will fly it.

BOS will never be a purely domestic hub because it is not well placed to play that role. An international to domestic hub on the other hand, especially from Europe, could work, If not for the fact that the airport is already an overcrowded mess without the hub operation. Imagine with!

BOS has little room to expand, the runways are congested, intersect at way too many places and are too closely spaced together to allow for an optimum amount of aircraft movements per hour. The terminals are saturated, especially terminal E by the sounds of some of you. So what else is there left to say.

BOS as a hub.....in its current state, will never happen.

But on the flip side, how many non hub airports do you know that handle 30 + million ppl.

Can't think of one at the moment.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
stlgph
Posts: 11037
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 16):
Not an issue of space, just CBP staff   same story around the country.

Yep. The ability to process is there, many airport cbp stations just run without the staff to open up all the lanes at once.
I love the many threads on here that want A380 service to everywhere on here...because, honestly, unless you like standing in line at customs, no...you dont want A380 service to everywhere.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
YUL handles more passengers going through customs/immigration than BOS does (8.7 million vs 5.7 million), and yet during peak evening hours, I have never waited more than 1 hour form the time I left the aircraft til I was curbside with my bags in hand.

In my experience Canadian customs is more "relaxed" than U.S. customs, shall we say....
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:50 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 18):
In my experience Canadian customs is more "relaxed" than U.S. customs, shall we say....


Canada customs is anything but relaxed ! Nor should it be. It's actually in the U.S's interest for Canada to be on par with its customs procedures. And to my knowledge, it is.

It has always been a breeze for me to enter the States. Re-entering Canada on the other hand, I compare it often to coming up against the Gestapo !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:24 am

I'm hoping to do a UA First Class daytrip involving BOS and 9K Cessna 402s, but I can't seem to find any same-day round trips to FLL with UA F and Cape Air. Any ideas?

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
Rubbish. If what you say is true, then there wouldn't be such flights as PIT-CDG on DL, or RDU-LHR on AA, or any one of the non-hub AC flights to LHR. Not every flight has to pass by a hub. If demand is there, then eventually someone will fly it.

No where did I ever say that there would be no non-hub flights anywhere, ever. You listed several examples and both Delta and US/AA fly select non-hub routes from Boston. However, broadly offering point to point flights from Boston does not fit the hub and spoke model of the legacies and to do so would deteriorate the performance of the hub/spoke model.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
iyerhari
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:00 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
BOS has little room to expand, the runways are congested, intersect at way too many places and are too closely spaced together to allow for an optimum amount of aircraft movements per hour. The terminals are saturated, especially terminal E by the sounds of some of you. So what else is there left to say.

I understand the congestion aspect but if you see some of the Northeast airports such as PHL or EWR or even DCA - BOS has far better runways. Maybe they have hubs located far too close to their centers such as EWR, PHL, LGA etc. is a valid argument. Certainly these airports have far better airport facilities (not runways) than BOS. I'm hoping with carriers such as Emirates, CX etc. Massport will be able to improve the facilities. As regards the immigration and customs, I completed my immigration and customs in BOS in exactly 30 mins. few weeks back. Maybe it was the timing - my worst experience was IAD and it took 3.5 hrs.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:26 pm

On one of my London trips I went via Toronto, mostly because I could then put a couple new check boxes on my list: First AC 77W; first YYZ-LHR route; first LHR-YUL; first AC A333 (which turned out to be the Star Alliance one).

Anyway, transiting through YYZ (outbound) and YUL (inbound) was a very nice experience. My only ‘problem’ happened on the outbound. My company makes specialized spectral sensors for aircraft and UAVs. I was taking a real one and also a 3D (plastic) model of one. When I got to London center after taking the train from Heathrow I noticed it was raining a bit (shock!) so I opened my suitcase for the first time on the journey to retrieve my umbrella. I was stunned to find ‘white powder’ over everything...my suit included. I know what you’re thinking, and no, the ‘white powder’ wasn’t that ‘white powder.’ Rather, it was the inside powder from the 3D model that the TSA in BOSTON snapped in half to make SURE it wasn’t the OTHER ‘white powder.’ Broke the bloody thing in two. The REAL sensor they looked at, too, but carefully wrapped it back up with their signature tape and none the worse for wear. It was clear WHO did it, and WHERE they did it...before I even left Boston!

The 3D model wasn’t a costly loss, and the white powder brushed off everything (for the most part). But I enjoyed the experience on Air Canada, and the captain of the 77W (C-FIUL) was happy to chat with me for as long as I wished as we walked through the terminal at Heathrow.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):
Coming back the whole customs & immigration is a breeze; they almost wave me right through.

I was last in Canada about 2 years ago. I don't remember being finger printed and scanned. That makes a huge difference in processing speed.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):
I don't know if it is fair to say that Logan is seeing a 'renaissance' of sorts (practically all the new service is international). But I'm wondering whether Logan & Massport will start 'encouraging' the use of MHT and PVD once again, as they see more stress placed on their infrastructure.

That won't do anything for Logan since as you pointed out, the problem is at terminal E and I don't see many if any international flights going to MHT/PVD. EI with its preclearance would probably be the only possibility, I guess.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):

As for me...a NH resident whose property actually goes right to the Massachusetts border...I'm happy to use Logan until and unless things start turning up at MHT.

I've lived right up in the MA/NH border for 10 years and have only used MHT 3 times. Even during the big-dig it was more convenient and a lot cheaper for me to fly from BOS than MHT. Of course I was working in downtown Boston at the time and accustomed to dealing with rush hour traffic in and out of the city every day so a trip to Logan every once in a while was no big deal for me.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):
YUL handles more passengers going through customs/immigration than BOS does (8.7 million vs 5.7 million), and yet during peak evening hours, I have never waited more than 1 hour form the time I left the aircraft til I was curbside with my bags in hand.

Are you a Canandian citizen? U.S. customs is pretty easy for citizens and permanent residents where allowed to use the citizens booths, like BOS.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 16):
Not an issue of space, just CBP staff same story around the country. Most nights its the non-US line which is 2hrs+, the US line is usually quite short as they can use the kiosks.

  
It's not an issue for citizens and residents. Lucky for me BOS allows permanent residents to use the U.S. citizen lines  
Quoting alphaomega (Reply 16):
Yes, but will take a few years (2017-ish) and add 4 gates to the terminal.

It won't add any gates. They are just expanding sections of the terminal area and adding a second jetway to existing gates.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
BOS as a hub.....in its current state, will never happen.

It is already happening for B6 and its partners. They don't advertise it as such but BOS is becoming a major international hub for B6. Massport wouldn't be building an airside connection between terminals C and E if there wasn't a justifiable reason to do so. But it will never be a very large hub because of obvious physical limitations.

A while back (3 years ago maybe), I sketched a "back of a napkin" drawing of what BOS could become if all the stars were ever to align   The dark blue shades are new terminals. Notice how I wasn't too far off with the terminal B addition and the rental car garage. 2 down, 1 to go   
https://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=6006&filename=phpJi5Dgn.jpeg

In my opinion the rental car garage should have been much larger and replace the current long term garage, to make room for a terminal expansion. But there's still hope that my meager little drawing may come to fruition some day 
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
Are you a Canandian citizen? U.S. customs is pretty easy for citizens and permanent residents where allowed to use the citizens booths, like BOS.

Up until 2 years ago, YUL still didn't have the kiosks for Canadian residents. So everyone shared the same lines. The lenght of time I was quoting was during that time. Since then, it is even faster than that with the kiosks open. Honestly baggage can take longer than customs though.

YUL, just like BOS, has little room left to expand. More CBP booths, or even better, a separate one to split up intl and transborder pax would be ideal. I just can't see it happening.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
But there's still hope that my meager little drawing may come to fruition some day 

Good predictions, although it must be said that it doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. BOS doesn't have much room left for expansion. What you highlighted is pretty much all they can do. Anything else would require demolishing older terminals and building brand new facilities on top.

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 25):
Anything else would require demolishing older terminals and building brand new facilities on top.

That is my plan B 
Build a giant terminal building under a single roof where the older central car garage is, and piece by piece replace each terminal with gate piers off of that central terminal. A design similar to AMS or EWR.

[Edited 2014-08-26 09:45:22]
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:51 pm

Since El Al is notorious about its security, what kind of modifications would they demand as a prerequisite to coming to Boston? They seem to be much-spoken-about, although I suppose Delta could shock us all and be that flight to Tel Aviv.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:59 pm

Anyone know what is the current passenger capacity of BOS. Have they reached it yet?

What are the long term plans of Massport ref the growing number of passengers. A new airport somewhere inland maybe? I can see BOS's current location as a prime real estate eventually for condos and what not.

Did a google search with the words massport and master plan, and the first link that came up was a document written in 1975.   

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
29erUSA187
Topic Author
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:59 pm

I don't think that they will move BOS anytime soon. It's like the controversy about whether to move SAN to Mirmar. It is to centrally located and convienient for the people that actually use the airport. If they need to expand, why not build an ads on to the island it is already on? The island is man made,
So it cannot be too hard to add more land to the island. Maybe a 3rd 4/22 runway and a 2 33-15?
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 27):
Since El Al is notorious about its security, what kind of modifications would they demand as a prerequisite to coming to Boston? They seem to be much-spoken-about, although I suppose Delta could shock us all and be that flight to Tel Aviv.

TK serves TLV 5x daily. Between that and all other TATL carriers with connections to TLV I doubt we'll ever see non-stop service. The hassles required to fly with EL AL pretty much eliminates the airline as an option for most passengers.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 28):
A new airport somewhere inland maybe?

AHAHAH! Sorry, did I just LOL'd  
Seriously, use google earth and you won't find any available land anywhere near Boston. That is why Boston has one of the most expensive property prices in the country.
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:25 pm

You have realize that it took decades to get a new arena for the Bruins, the Patriots got chased 35 miles to the south, and the Red Sox will still be playing in Fenway park when my children's kids--the ones that haven't even been born yet--are old. This is a roundabout way of saying that NOTHING substantive can be done with Logan's footprint because things in Boston get TALKED ABOUT and MULLED OVER and eventually FORGOTTEN. There is an appetite for 'committees' and 'discussions' when it comes to stuff like this, which eventually exhausts and demoralizes everyone. Like the weather, 'Everyone talks about it but no one ever DOES anything."

Months ago I suggested tongue-in-cheek that Suffolk Downs would be a better location for a new terminal than for a new casino, but even that idea isn't really plausible or feasible. And the only real remaining plot of land suitable (and even once talked about) as a site for a reliever airport--Devens--has been swallowed up by commercial development. And, oh yeah...a federal JAIL.

Another consideration is the hoped-for Olympics. As bursting-at-the-seams as Logan is, can it even feasibly handle an onslaught like that? Like it or not, the USOC will factor that into the debate and there had better be an answer for it. The Boston Olympic committee will no doubt point their little fingers north (MHT) and south (PVD) and figure 'That's The Solution.' But the USOC may not agree.
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:45 pm

One thing Massport desperately needs to look into - and I'm shocked the local media outlets haven't picked up on this yet - is more land side parking. I fly out of BOS every week and every day it's usually a challenge to find a parking spot. The Terminal B garage is always full to capacity and the Central and Economy garages are usually way over crowded with vehicles parked at the ends of each lane, along all the walls and in the crosswalks. On several occasions I got one the last parking spaces in the new economy garage, I was starting to sweat bullets because I couldn't find a spot.

The Terminal E lots are also becoming more and more popular and usually at least 85% full when I drive by on my way to the Economy lot. On most peak days this summer Massport was forced to implement a valet service and park cars underneath overpasses and along service roads because they simply didn't have enough parking spaces.

In some ways it's a great problem to have because it means the airport is growing by leaps and bounds. I remember a time when many people avoided Logan like the plague but those days are long gone. Unfortunately though if Massport can't find ways to make the airport more accessible people will start to leave again.

One subject that has come up a lot lately on this site is how to expand Terminal E and/or build a new Terminal F to help with all the new international traffic. In the past ideas were tossed out there to build a new Terminal roughly where the new Economy garage is and just because the garage is there now doesn't mean a terminal couldn't replace it but Massport will need to be very smart with the parking issue before they expand.

[Edited 2014-08-26 12:23:49]
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 31):
Another consideration is the hoped-for Olympics. As bursting-at-the-seams as Logan is, can it even feasibly handle an onslaught like that?

The Olympics don't add air traffic. That has always been a huge misconception.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 32):
One thing Massport desperately needs to look into - and I'm shocked the local media outlets haven't picked up on this yet - is more land side parking. I fly out of BOS every week and every day it's usually a challenger to find a parking spot.

Yup. Like I said above. When they built the new car rental center it should have been bigger (the space exists), and it should have included a parking garage too.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6516
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 28):
What are the long term plans of Massport ref the growing number of passengers. A new airport somewhere inland maybe? I can see BOS's current location as a prime real estate eventually for condos and what not.

Did a google search with the words massport and master plan, and the first link that came up was a document written in 1975.

Throughout the years, long before B6 came around and the Big Dig construction even started; there has been talk regarding how to address the growing demand at BOS. The off-again/on-again discussion during much of the 1980s & even 1990s focused on utilizing existing surrounding airports like ORH & BED as BOS-alternatives/relievers rather than full-blown expansions at BOS or relocating the entire airport (a la DEN); note; this was long before WN came to MHT & PVD.

Should that situation come about again, (if memory serves, MHT & PVD are not run by Massport) using multiple surrounding airports as a means to reduce the strain off BOS might be dusted off again.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 27):
Since El Al is notorious about its security, what kind of modifications would they demand as a prerequisite to coming to Boston? They seem to be much-spoken-about, although I suppose Delta could shock us all and be that flight to Tel Aviv.

At EWR, they have a gate at one end of one of the piers in Terminal C that is effectively blocked off and has its own second security checkpoint / set of security measures. I've seen them line up to board the flight. It's an impressive secondary security check to my untrained eye.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3916
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 35):
At EWR, they have a gate at one end of one of the piers in Terminal C that is effectively blocked off and has its own second security checkpoint / set of security measures. I've seen them line up to board the flight. It's an impressive secondary security check to my untrained eye.

That's not just an El-Al thing. US Airways has a similar setup at PHL for the TLV flight.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
rob2507
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2001 3:47 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 32):
One thing Massport desperately needs to look into - and I'm shocked the local media outlets haven't picked up on this yet - is more land side parking.

They've just started a project to add a garage over the Hilton hotel lot and expand the B garage (Project L1191).

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 28):
Did a google search with the words massport and master plan, and the first link that came up was a document written in 1975.

Not a master plan, but at least a look at projects Massport-wide: Massport Capital Programs
 
cloudboy
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:26 pm

They have been talking about a second Boston airport for years. There was a very real push a good 20 or so years ago about using Devens when it was announced they would close. That met with so much resistance that not only was that project scrapped, pretty much any thought of a new airport has been shot down before it even got to exploratory stages. There are plenty of airports in close enough vicinity that if the issue was solely capacity, they could offload flights. The real issue with other airports is the business traffic comes from Boston and a few key outlying points, and the transportation connections unfortunately only lend themselves to getting into Boston. In the end it is the voters who dive things, and there are not enough of them that care about adding more international airlines that they would support any projects anyways.

As for the parking situation, I believe there is some kind of ban or agreement in place that prevents them adding any more parking. Supposedly that is why the parking is so tight. I had heard, but only as a rumor, that that was part of the reasoning behind the new rental garage - there was no limit on automobile rental parking, so they built a garage for that. But hopefully someone can confirm that or refute it.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
stlgph
Posts: 11037
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 19):
Canada customs is anything but relaxed ! Nor should it be. It's actually in the U.S's interest for Canada to be on par with its customs procedures. And to my knowledge, it is.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 24):
was last in Canada about 2 years ago. I don't remember being finger printed and scanned. That makes a huge difference in processing speed.

I've gone to Canada twice this month. Each time was "hi, how ya doing?" stamp and on my way.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 32):

One thing Massport desperately needs to look into - and I'm shocked the local media outlets haven't picked up on this yet - is more land side parking.

It's Boston. "They" would much rather have you use public transit
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
dfambro
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 31):
Months ago I suggested tongue-in-cheek that Suffolk Downs would be a better location for a new terminal

How about putting cargo on the other side of Harborside Rd, in front of the Hyatt, and put a Terminal B satellite where the cargo ramp is? That would kill runway 32, but that runway is seldom used anyway.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 32):
more land side parking.

The parking situation is really bad. More spots would be great, but they should also raise parking prices to incentive more use of cabs & car services.
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 40):

The parking situation is really bad. More spots would be great, but they should also raise parking prices to incentive more use of cabs & car services.

They recently raised the prices at the Economy garage; I tend to keep clear of the other lots so I'm not sure what the rates are at Central or B but I know it costs me $100 to park for the week in economy. That's not horrendous but not cheap either. It's still a bit less than what I'd spend on a car service but it's getting to the point where I think I might seriously think about using one more regularly. I've done it in the past when my car was in the shop and I have to say it takes so much of the stress out of the trip.
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1472
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting rob2507 (Reply 37):
Not a master plan, but at least a look at projects Massport-wide: Massport Capital Programs

One of the intersting "Future" projects that I saw was a Pre & Post Security Terminals A/B connector, slated for 2016/2017.

If they ever connect B&C post security (It's connected pre-security via a long hallway), in theory you could connect post security from Terminals E - A, but that would be a very very long walk.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
dfambro
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 41):
I know it costs me $100 to park for the week in economy.

Central is $29/day so ~$200/wk. Anything over 6 hours is considered another day. I'm in the city so the cost crossover point where cab is cheaper than parking is only about 30hrs (~54 hours for Uber, for a far better trip experience!). But I will cab/uber for shorter times anyway because curbside dropoff is faster and easier.
 
stratacruiser
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:42 pm

Two European destinations that I expect could support a BOS non-stop are BRU and MAN. The former had service until Sabena when bankrupt, and then for a brief time with the short-lived Delsey Air. SN's current connections to Africa could provide a unique traffic feed beyond the O&D market. As far as MAN goes, I would have to think many of the pax filling the 1800 or so daily BOS-LHR seats are heading to central or northern England and might prefer a direct flight. I know UA has shown no interest in int'l flights from BOS, but those two destinations could be well served by the TATL 757 fleet, restoring some of *A's diminishing relevence in the BOS market.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9894
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 39):

It's Boston. "They" would much rather have you use public transit

Nonesense. Parking is Massport's biggest source of revenue. More than landing fees. They want parking, and lots of it. That's why they are building A380 gates. Bigger planes means more people driving to and parking at Logan. Parking garages are cheap to build and maintain. By contrast airport terminals are expensive.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 40):
The parking situation is really bad. More spots would be great, but they should also raise parking prices to incentive more use of cabs & car services.

It's already the most expensive in the country, I think. If they do that they risk losing business to outside parking vendors who are cheaper. I personally have been using an off-airport parking company. They are cheaper and efficient.
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 40):
That would kill runway 32, but that runway is seldom used anyway.

That is very true ... Runway 14/32 took years and years to get approved - but it is almost never used.
Year to date through July - there have been 1086 arrivals on Runway 32 (out of over 86,000 total at Logan) and not a single takeoff from Runway 14 ...


Still that is more than either of the last 2 years:

2013: 658 Arrivals on 32 / 1 Departure off of 14
2012: 420 Arrivals on 32 / 1 Departure off of 14

https://www.massport.com/media/263410/July-2014-RW-use_combined.pdft

One of the stipulations in getting approval for 14/32 was that 32 could only be used for arrivals and 14 could only be used for departures. It is the perfect length for small RJ's.

[Edited 2014-08-26 15:44:36]
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 29):
Maybe a 3rd 4/22 runway and a 2 33-15?

There is already a 33R/15L - it's very short and only used by prop planes. It's right above 33L/15R in airbazar's pic in Reply 24: https://www.airliners.net/ufview.file...d=6006&filename=phpJi5Dgn.jpeg

[Edited 2014-08-26 15:19:01]
 
ScottB
Posts: 6719
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Boston Aviation

Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting iyerhari (Reply 10):
I just fail to understand that despite having world-class consulting firms headquartered in BOS or asset management companies in financial services, it's impossible to fill a domestic plane to a destination like say SNA or XNA to some big-name client locations.

The issue with point-to-point non-stops out of BOS is that the O&D market ends up needing to be quite large when connections aren't available at either end. And if you combine that with business-oriented markets where travelers care about schedule, then the point-to-point strategy becomes even more challenging.

Take the two examples you gave of SNA & XNA. The existing BOS-SNA market is only about 80 passengers daily each way, but let's assume it would double with a non-stop. It would still be challenging because a single daily round-trip would indirectly compete with far superior schedule options between BOS & LAX along with connections over various hubs. BOS-XNA is much smaller at about 20 PDEW. A non-stop would stimulate some traffic, but it would still struggle against the broad variety of connections available at ATL, ORD, CLT, etc. It's worthwhile to connect if it saves you a night in a hotel room/gets you home in time to kiss your kids good night/lets you get the full day in at the office.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 29):
So it cannot be too hard to add more land to the island. Maybe a 3rd 4/22 runway and a 2 33-15?

There's a town (Winthrop) in the way of another 4-22 runway and it would still intersect with 9-27 and 15R-33L. I suspect that the teeny, tiny 15L-33R has been kept in the hopes of extending it to the southeast, but I doubt that will ever happen. It's not all that hard to fill in the mud flats, but it will never happen due to the environmental impact.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 40):
How about putting cargo on the other side of Harborside Rd, in front of the Hyatt, and put a Terminal B satellite where the cargo ramp is? That would kill runway 32, but that runway is seldom used anyway.

Better to put cargo up north of the fuel farm, by the Wood Island T.

Quoting tlecam (Reply 42):
If they ever connect B&C post security (It's connected pre-security via a long hallway), in theory you could connect post security from Terminals E - A, but that would be a very very long walk.

A sterile B-C connector would actually be pretty easy as C41 and C42 are in the Massport administration building; C42 & B38 are adjacent to each other on the ramp. But that would also require B37 & B38 to be connected to the rest of B beyond security. (I assume C40-42 are behind the common checkpoint for Terminal C now.)

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 38):
There was a very real push a good 20 or so years ago about using Devens when it was announced they would close. That met with so much resistance that not only was that project scrapped, pretty much any thought of a new airport has been shot down before it even got to exploratory stages.

Devens was never seriously in play because it is way the heck out there with horrible road/rail connections to Boston and there are several wealthy towns in proximity. It takes an hour to get to Devens by road with no traffic and the train is even slower.
 
29erUSA187
Topic Author
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

RE: Boston Aviation

Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:14 am

In order to free up more space and possibly expand any terminals, could they in theory move all of the G/A aircraft to Bedford airport, and expand terminal E. Or would moving the freighters there and expanding terminal B/A make more sense?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos