New United & VX Gates At Dallas Love Field

CO777DAL · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:09 am

New United and VX Gates at Dallas Love Field

Here are the new United Gates. The gates are not ready yet but getting there.

New Virgin America Gates

United has gates 15 and 17 which are next to each other. Continental traded with American Airlines a while back. Continental originally had gates 11 and 13. Gate 17 is the only gate that can accommodate a 737 and a plane larger than a 737 such as a 757. I think it is wide enough to park a plane as wide as a 767 and still be able to park 737s on both sides. VX has gates 11 and 13.

In this photo the red plane is at gate 17 (UA) and the gate to the right is 15 (UA). Gate 11 and 13 VX gates are right of gate 15.

More from the Dallas Morning News
Virgin America, United Airlines gates are ready (pretty much) at Dallas Love Field
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...y-much-at-dallas-love-field.html/#

CO777DAL · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:19 pm

Something else I noticed is I know DL is supposed to fly out of the new Terminal but they don't have signs anywhere. Only WN UA and VX.

Dallas · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:34 pm

Where is DL supposed to fly out of? They don't have any gates and I never heard of UA allowing DL to operate from their gates. VX and WN gates will be full, so the only possible gates they could operate from are the 2 UA gates.

GSPSPOT · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:36 pm

VX will be using gates that DL would have used at DAL but DL lost in the battle for their 2 gates. Is UA just going to continue their BAU at Love?? Upgauge any equipment? Anything??

razorbackfan · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:38 pm

How many flights a day will United be flying out of Love Field? I haven't heard much news about them expanding their schedule? If they don't fully utilize the gates, can VX or WN rent from them?

jetblue1965 · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 3):
Is UA just going to continue their BAU at Love?? Upgauge any equipment? Anything??

Yes, no, no

They're probably letting WN and VX be the guinea pig on how well DAL-SFO/LAX/LGA does before jumping onto it. If UA ever gets about DAL, at the very least they would do SFO EWR and maybe ORD.

ORD Boy 2 · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:50 pm

Isn't DAL still going to fly out of Love? I thought they couldn't get any MORE slots, but that should not stop them operating what they had??

Dallas · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
They're probably letting WN and VX be the guinea pig on how well DAL-SFO/LAX/LGA does before jumping onto it. If UA ever gets about DAL, at the very least they would do SFO EWR and maybe ORD.

If they do continue with their 7x daily flights to IAH on RJs, there is no need for them to have 2 gates. I'm curious how long it would be until DL/WN/VX makes calls to the City that those gates are not being fully utilized and that they should be able to lease/sublease them, or make the common-use. I believe all of that is provided in the restructured WA Agreement, but I'm not sure about the sample size or time needed before a claim can be made.

Dallas · Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting ORD Boy 2 (Reply 6):
Isn't DAL still going to fly out of Love? I thought they couldn't get any MORE slots, but that should not stop them operating what they had??

I just looked up nonstop flights between DAL and ATL on 10/20 and 10/22, and sure enough I'm still able to purchase them. With that being less than 2 months away, and the fact they do not have any gates, I would assume they are expecting to use the UA gates for those flights. Is there an agreement in place, or where do they think they are operating these? I would expect DL has something up their sleeves this close to those dates, or that they will simply make these pax fly from DFW on those dates.

Anybody know what is happening with DL at DAL?

rojo · Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 8):
Anybody know what is happening with DL at DAL?

Sublease UA gates. If WN will squeeze 9 daily flights per gate, UA's 2 gates can easily handle both DL and UA

HeeseokKoo · Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting rojo (Reply 9):
Sublease UA gates. If WN will squeeze 9 daily flights per gate, UA's 2 gates can easily handle both DL and UA

UA operates all flights using 1 gate already, I think. The other gate is already subleased to SeaPort airlines. No room for DL.

Dallas · Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:31 pm

I thought all subleases have to be approved by the City, as WN would also want to sublease that gate. Does UA get to pick who they sublease to, or is that the decision of the City of Dallas?

capejet · Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:52 pm

I think Seaport only operates 2 or 3 flights a day from Love Field. I think they have service to Hot Springs and Eldorado AR. I am not sure if those flights get federal subsidies or not.

razorbackfan · Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:04 pm

The point that Seaport and their 9 passenger plane takes up valuable gate space from larger airliners is a joke. Actually I think a vast majority of the essential air service is a waste of tax dollars, a lot of the cities are within an hour or so drive of a major airport, and in some situations paying around $1200 per passenger. crazy!

JBAirwaysFan · Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:41 pm

I'd like to point out that Delta has scrapped quite a few mainline flights out of DAL after the Wright Amendment is lifted. I think they went from all mainline to only 1x or 2x mainline with the rest being RJs. What gives?

Cubsrule · Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 10):
UA operates all flights using 1 gate already, I think. The other gate is already subleased to SeaPort airlines. No room for DL.

You really think DL is stupid enough to be selling flights for which it has no gate space two months out? They've clearly worked out something with someone.

jetblue1965 · Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):

You really think DL is stupid enough to be selling flights for which it has no gate space two months out? They've clearly worked out something with someone.

They also announced quite a few routes from DAL and start selling them months before any of the gate situation was finalized, and ended up with egg on their face.

6 ATL, 5 LGA, 5 LAX, 3 DTW, 3 MSP; ATL mainline rest regional

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:16 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
They also announced quite a few routes from DAL and start selling them months before any of the gate situation was finalized

And how close did those flights get to their purported start dates before they were canned? At 60 days out, an appreciable number of passengers are booking.

HeeseokKoo · Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
You really think DL is stupid enough to be selling flights for which it has no gate space two months out? They've clearly worked out something with someone.

SeaPort and UA all are still selling tickets. We'll see how DL sort out the issue - possible buy-out SeaPort or reschedule not to overlap with them. Even though DL have to cancels Love Field flights, passengers can be easily accommodated to DFW and DL will blame DOT, not themselves.

This article implies one gate will be used by DL without mentioning SeaPort at all:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai...virgin-america-squeeze-love-field/

RyanairGuru · Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
You really think DL is stupid enough to be selling flights for which it has no gate space two months out? They've clearly worked out something with someone.

Put it this way, when UA sub-leased the LAX gates to AA it was announced immediately, and that was for a lease four months in the future. We are 60 days out, and how much have we heard? Nada.

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 18):
We'll see how DL sort out the issue - possible buy-out SeaPort or reschedule not to overlap with them.

You've lost me. They are already scheduled so that there's no overlap. Here's Monday, October 25:

DL ATL 0700
K5 ELD-HOT 0835
DL ATL 1003
DL ATL 1240
DL ATL 1535
K5 ELD-HOT 1630
DL ATL 1759

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
We are 60 days out, and how much have we heard? Nada.

It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. Nobody is giving up access to gates they currently use at DAL.

RyanairGuru · Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):

Given that schedule does not overlap with K5, it could well be that they are just going to "rent" the gate from UA, almost on a CUTE basis, when they need it, but it looks doubtful that there is going to be an official sub-lease to DL.

JBAirwaysFan · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:16 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
ATL mainline rest regional

Not anymore. Delta is mixing mainline and RJs on DAL-ATL now until November 2 when it goes all mainline...unless that's the end of their current schedule (concrete schedule that is).

[Edited 2014-08-26 20:18:22]

TWA772LR · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:42 am

What is to become of the shack where UA and DL are currently? Torn down?

CO777DAL · Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:49 am

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 10):
UA operates all flights using 1 gate already, I think. The other gate is already subleased to SeaPort airlines. No room for DL.

In the current terminal UA has two gates (they use both) and DL has one gate as well as Seaport Airlines. Both DL and Seaport lease one of the AA gates.

Here is a video that shows the Seaport gate and you will see two UA aircraft parked at both UA gates at DAL. Also a DL aircraft is taking off in the back ground. UA currently shares its gate with no airline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2V6reW1DYQ

Quoting Dallas (Reply 11):

I thought all subleases have to be approved by the City, as WN would also want to sublease that gate. Does UA get to pick who they sublease to, or is that the decision of the City of Dallas?

I doubt UA will sublease it. Instead they will allow DL and Seaport to use them under the rules, but UA has preferential use. This means if UA had two flights at say 8:00AM, UA can use both gates. Also at any time UA can increase its scheduled flights and force any other airline out of their gates. UA can also go to say 15 flights a day and take the best times and force other airline out of their gates. If there is irregular ops, UA has rights to the gates over DL or Seaport.

This has happened before under Continental so UA management is aware of the rules. Back in the day CO was running about 7 flights and AA asked to use CO gates. CO had to let them use it because CO was not using both all the time. Then CO went to 10 flights a days and booted AA out because AA had to work around CO scheduled and CO took all the good time slots. Then CO went to 16 flights a day between DAL and IAH. UA is not going to give up their gates no matter how dysfunctional things may be now.

Yes other airlines can use UA gate but they are at the mercy of UA. They have to work around UA schedule and if a bunch of UA planes shows up at DAL it is UA gate to use first and foremost. It has happened in the past. I was once at DAL when 17 Continental Express showed up. CO order pizza for everyone. That was a fun day! Some random info. The most Continental aircraft at DAL was 25 once when IAH was fogged in. That was a sight. I"m sure WN thought they were being invaded.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 23):
What is to become of the shack where UA and DL are currently? Torn down?

Yes it will be torn down.

[Edited 2014-08-26 23:09:35]

AA737-823 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 24):
Yes it will be torn down.

That's still my biggest heartache with this fantastic remodel; that the Braniff Terminal of Tomorrow is being demolished.
Braniff built it in 1968, American remodeled it (without a building permit) in 1999-2000 timeframe, and now, it's just being cast aside, along with a lot of the other historic and cool things about the airport. BUT- I've been to the lobby of the new terminal, and it is certainly a drastic improvement, as is Love Landing. And, having flown CO out of DAL for about ten years now, I'm sure we can agree that there was nowhere for catering to go but UP!

Can I get a group petition started for a new Braniff Jetrail from remote parking? I'll chip in $100!!!

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 24):
Yes other airlines can use UA gate but they are at the mercy of UA.

Maybe so, but I don't see much incentive for UA to give DL or K5 a hard time. It's in UA's interest to keep the gates busy so that VX or WN doesn't muscle in, and the gauge of aircraft that UA deploys to DAL and DFW, which is in stark contrast with other legacies, makes clear that UA has no interest in getting anyone other than the most ardent UA loyalists to the Metroplex.

Bobloblaw · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 5):

I don't think UA will add anything from DAL. DAL is overrated for everyone but southwest

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
DAL is overrated for everyone but southwest

It'll be interesting to see if VX can get a yield premium over what they were getting at DFW. WN gets a yield premium on most of of its nonstop routes ex-DAL, but I don't know how much of that is WN vs. AA and how much of that is DFW vs. DAL.

jetblue1965 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
I don't think UA will add anything from DAL. DAL is overrated for everyone but southwest

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
It'll be interesting to see if VX can get a yield premium over what they were getting at DFW. WN gets a yield premium on most of of its nonstop routes ex-DAL, but I don't know how much of that is WN vs. AA and how much of that is DFW vs. DAL.

Haha one of the rare times we agree. If VX and WN can successfully command a yield premium, UA won't let it go to waste. Until the routes can prove themselves against AA's massive hub, UA really doesn't have an incentive to deploy so many frequencies and planes to DAL that might end up cannibalizing their own flights to DFW instead.

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
If VX and WN can successfully command a yield premium, UA won't let it go to waste.

I think the problem is that UA isn't really fighting for O&D passengers and, to the extent that UA is, many of the choices folks make are more airport-dependent than they might be on a longer segment. (IAH/HOU-DAL/DFW are all options, plus arguably some other flights like DFW-CLL or IAH-ACT.) But UA has had plenty of 50 seaters that it could use to other hubs forever, and I think it would have done so by now if it wanted to give it a shot.

Bobloblaw · Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
If VX and WN can successfully command a yield premium

Southwest doesnt command a yield premium anywhere.

GSPSPOT · Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 2):

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 25):
Can I get a group petition started for a new Braniff Jetrail from remote parking? I'll chip in $ 100.00

That would be AWESOME! The Jetrail was so BN and so Dallas.

Cubsrule · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 31):
Southwest doesnt command a yield premium anywhere.

What data are you looking at? In the last consumer airfare report I looked at (which may be the second-to-last one to have come out), they certainly did.

CO777DAL · Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
Maybe so, but I don't see much incentive for UA to give DL or K5 a hard time

I don't think UA will give them a hard. I just making the point if UA ever needs the gates, it is theirs to use.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 27):
I don't think UA will add anything from DAL. DAL is overrated for everyone but southwest

I think the exact opposite about DAL being overrated. DL, VX, WN were all fighting tooth and nail for those gates. The people with the highest concentration of disposable income in DFW all live close to DAL. Highland Park, University Park, Preston Hollow, Uptown, Downtown, Turtle Creek, Lake Highlands, Lakewood and North Dallas. Talking about serious $$$$ here. I think once people find out how convenient, fast and easy it is to fly out of DAL, business is going to boom. AA wasn't fighting DAL expansion all these years for nothing.

I was a loyal AA FF until I tried CO service from DAL back in 1998 and instantly fell in love. It was like seeing the light. I never flew CO before that. DAL was like a dream come true. I can't depend on 635 to get me to DFW. Unless there is an ice storm I can get to DAL in 20 mins max and from my car to the gate in 5 mins. I bet it will go to 10 mins in the new terminal thou

(I have also waited 45 mins for the shuttle bus at DFW alone. I could have flown DAL to IAH in that time.) After a long day a traveling, there is nothing like landing and less than 2 minutes later be at the gate, and 5 mins later I'm in my car, and 15 mins later at home. That is heaven! I think when people see how much more convenient DAL is, more people that live close to DAL will chose it over DFW. If you value time, with DAL getting direct flights, it beats going to DFW by a Texas mile for all those that live in the areas I mention, especially if you live in Dallas east of Central.

I want UA to add DAL-EWR & DAL-SFO and I will give them a little time, but I will move my flying over to VX if they don't do something. Also if UA ever pulled out of DAL I will fly another airline. I not going to drive to DFW to fly them. The biggest reason I stuck with CO and now UA because of their service to DAL.

[Edited 2014-08-27 18:36:50]

Bobloblaw · Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:09 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
What data are you looking at? In the last consumer airfare report I looked at (which may be the second-to-last one to have come out), they certainly did.

Southwest gets lower fares than their legacy competitors in the US Domestic Market. Maybe "anywhere" was too broad as there might be a few markets, but there aren't many.

Bobloblaw · Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
I want UA to add DAL-EWR & DAL-SFO and I will give them a little time

All that will do is cannibalize their DFW flights.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
That is heaven! I think when people see how much more convenient DAL is, more people that live close to DAL will chose it over DFW

And yet when AA flew AUS/SAT/MCI/STL and ORD they didn't.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
DL, VX, WN were all fighting tooth and nail for those gates

For WN it makes sense. For DL only ATL would likely work. For VX, they will probably lose their shirts. Notice no ORD service? You tell me that ORD cant work but everything else can? DAL is like Haneda. Everyone wants in and every will lose a ton.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
AA wasn't fighting DAL expansion all these years for nothing

At most 1-2% of traffic at DFW would move to DAL. What AA didn't want was lower fares.

Cubsrule · Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
Maybe "anywhere" was too broad as there might be a few markets, but there aren't many.

But, most quarters, it's something like 12 of the 15 nonstop markets in which AA and WN compete ex-DAL. It would seem that the rest of the country isn't really apropos to this conversation.

Bobloblaw · Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):

I'll have someone pull DOT data for me and I'll post. Last 12 months, we'll see who has the higher local fare.

jetblue1965 · Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 36):
And yet when AA flew AUS/SAT/MCI/STL and ORD they didn't.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 36):

For WN it makes sense. For DL only ATL would likely work. For VX, they will probably lose their shirts. Notice no ORD service? You tell me that ORD cant work but everything else can? DAL is like Haneda. Everyone wants in and every will lose a ton.

The better analogy is UA surrendering OAK and massively trimming SJC (only DEN+IAH left) even though they have a strong base at SFO. Or that UA has zero presence at LGB and UAX-only presence at BUR and ONT in order to protect their marginally sustainable network at LAX

On the flip side, neither AA nor DL flies LAX-EWR in order to protect their LAX-JFK premium transcon. Every airline protects their primary hub. AA previous performance at DAL isn't a good indication of what will happen to other airlines today.

Rdh3e · Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
I'll have someone pull DOT data for me and I'll post. Last 12 months, we'll see who has the higher local fare.

Of the 65 markets in which the two competed Dallas-XXX during the period WN had a yield premium to 5 airports AUS, HOU, OKC, SAT, TUL. AA had a premium in the other 60.

Source: April 2013-March 2014 DOT, Table DB1A

[Edited 2014-08-28 08:31:26]

jetblue1965 · Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:42 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 40):

Of the 65 markets in which the two competed Dallas-XXX during the period WN had a yield premium to 5 airports AUS, HOU, OKC, SAT, TUL. AA had a premium in the other 60.

Source: April 2013-March 2014 DOT, Table DB1A

Of course the 1-stop markets are ridiculously uncompetitive.

Incidentally, all 5 you've listed (AUS, HOU, OKC, SAT, TUL) are nonstop from DAL. 5 out of 16 isn't too bad considering WN has an uninspiring FF program, no F product, nearly useless elite status, and no international partners.

[Edited 2014-08-28 08:54:04]

ScottB · Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
Southwest gets lower fares than their legacy competitors in the US Domestic Market. Maybe "anywhere" was too broad as there might be a few markets, but there aren't many.

Whether there exists a yield premium at DAL or DFW in competitive non-stop markets is only part of the picture. WN also tends to dominate O&D in competitive non-stop city-pair markets from DAL versus DFW. WN carried over 75% of QDF-AUS and nearly two-thirds of QDF-QHO O&D in Q4. The revenue premium for WN or AA in any of these markets is typically quite modest -- typically only a few dollars better for one or the other -- so passengers aren't choosing WN at DAL just based on price.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 41):
5 out of 16 isn't too bad considering WN has an uninspiring FF program, no F product, nearly useless elite status, and no international partners.

For the 90% of passengers traveling behind the curtain (or 100% when AA flies a 50-seat RJ), the WN product and frequent flyer program ends up being superior.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34):
I want UA to add DAL-EWR & DAL-SFO and I will give them a little time, but I will move my flying over to VX if they don't do something.

I'm not sure I see any advantage to that unless you only fly to NYC & SFO. Otherwise you're giving up status on UA for very little return.

Bobloblaw · Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
But, most quarters, it's something like 12 of the 15 nonstop markets in which AA and WN compete ex-DAL. It would seem that the rest of the country isn't really apropos to this conversation.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 40):
Of the 65 markets in which the two competed Dallas-XXX during the period WN had a yield premium to 5 airports AUS, HOU, OKC, SAT, TUL. AA had a premium in the other 60.

I didnt do the 65 markets but I did the nonstop ones for 2013. I got AUS, MSY and STL. only. Youre using a different period so i cant say youre wrong. But it remains that WN doesnt get a yield premium over AA.

Cubsrule · Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 43):
Youre using a different period so i cant say youre wrong. But it remains that WN doesnt get a yield premium over AA.

I think it varies a fair amount because, as ScottB pointed out, whoever has an advantage is typically just a few dollars ahead. Where the relative positions don't vary as much is total revenue (fare times passengers), where WN usually has a healthy lead.

Bobloblaw · Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):

Total revenue WN is ahead, but total revenue isnt yield.

Cubsrule · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 45):
Total revenue WN is ahead, but total revenue isnt yield.

With respect to local passengers, they are basically one and the same, no? And with very limited connections coming from outside the perimeter, I suspect that "onboard" yield favors WN more than local yield does.

Bobloblaw · Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:01 am

Yield=revenue /passenger revenue miles.

Or fare/miles

Cubsrule · Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 47):
Yield=revenue /passenger revenue miles.

Right, so if we are talking about multiple carriers on the same route (i.e. the same number of miles for every passenger), then yield and fare move together since the number of miles is constant. That's all I was trying to say. Yield isn't really a function of number of passengers since increasing the number of passengers increases both numerator and denominator.

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