National Airline For Scotland?

rj777 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:59 am

With the referendum on independence for Scotland less than 3 weeks away, it occured to me: if the vote comes out yes and Scotland does decide to break away from the rest of the UK. Will they form their own national airline? I know this is a premature question, but stranger things have happened.

1400mph · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:09 pm

I don't see any reason why not. Just not sure if it's required with BA, AF, KL, LH, EK in the frame offering connection opportunities and the American carrier non- stops.

An independent Scotland may encourage increased activity with more favourable taxes for airlines. Willie Walsh said as much I think.

bunumuring · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:25 pm

'Virgin Scotland', anyone? Change the red tail for a tartan one...

'McRyanAir'? Great way to start the mooted transatlantic services, as a new national airline attracting lots of publicity...

'Etihad Scotland', born out of the womb of Loganair...

Or BA could dust off the old tartan designs from the 'World Tails / Utopia' series and repaint a few 777s and A32Xs, with the original rear fuselage titles of 'Scotland' on them ...

Tongue in cheek, by the way ....

Cheers,
Bunumuring.

pa747sp · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:35 pm

Or maybe we will see the resurrection of Caledonian?

bunumuring · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 3):
Or maybe we will see the resurrection of Caledonian?

Yes yes yes!
Love the idea! One of my favourite airlines and colourschemes of all times! Didn't think of that one!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Bobloblaw · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:41 pm

I doubt it. As far as airlines go europe is one market. It is like saying should such and such state in the USA have their own market.

1400mph · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:45 pm

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 3):

Wasn't British Caledonian based at 'London' Gatwick ?

[Edited 2014-08-27 05:53:31]

Bongodog1964 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting rj777 (Thread starter):
With the referendum on independence for Scotland less than 3 weeks away, it occured to me: if the vote comes out yes and Scotland does decide to break away from the rest of the UK. Will they form their own national airline? I know this is a premature question, but stranger things have happened.

if they choose to break away, and wish to continue EU membership it would be next to impossible for them to form a "National Airline" as EU competition rules prohibit state subsidy of airlines, hence the perilous state of Alitalia and disappearance of some others. There is a "but" though EU membership would be by no means automatic, Spain in particular have a problem with this having resisted the Catalans and Basques from declaring independence for decades. The last thing they want is Scotland breaking away and keeping EU membership as the Catalans would then expect the same.

With a population of 6m a national airline would need to be part of a larger group, otherwise the sharks would quickly swallow it up.

UAEflyer · Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Emirates will always want to be their national airline

gkirk · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:18 pm

easyJet carry more pax to/from Scotland than any other carrier, so they'd be the closest thing I'd say

PanHAM · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:28 pm

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
if they choose to break away, and wish to continue EU membership it w

They have to re-apply and get in line behind Serbia. . For the time that takes they can have "Caledonian" or "Haggis International" or whatever they want to call it. Air Scotland would be fine as well.

drgmobile · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting rj777 (Thread starter):
Will they form their own national airline?

"National carrier" is an antiquated terminology and idea that should be retired from use. It was relevant back in the day that almost all international airlines outside of the U.S. were owned by the government and the single designated carrier for international flights. This is increasingly rare.

YXXMIKE · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:53 pm

FREEEEDOM AIR anyone?

bunumuring · Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 13):
FREEEEDOM AIR anyone?

Yeah... But...
Mel Gibson would NOT be the face I would use to advertise the airline, lol...
Imagine his blue-painted face, 'Norwegian' style, on the vertical tail of a Dreamliner...
At least it was a fantastic film!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

bennett123 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:36 pm

Assuming that scotland says "yes", this question may become relevant.

Apart from the me3 for long haul, u2/fr for short haul, and loganair for internal, will there be much left.

As for tax incentives, the snp seem to be big on spending and small in taxation.

The revenue from oil will only go so far.

aviationaware · Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 5):
I doubt it. As far as airlines go europe is one market.

That's true for the European Union; however, should Scotland indeed secceede, they would have to apply for EU membership and would not be a member automatically.
In order for a new member state to be approved, all existing members need to vote yes. While I have no reason to believe the UK would deny them approval out of bitterness, it is questionable if Spain would allow this to happen as it could potentially put raisins in the Catalans heads.
Without the EU and important treaties such as Schengen etc., Scotland will be a very isolated aviation market initially.

PanHAM · Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:05 pm

No need to be a EU member for Schengen. Norway is a Schengen country but not an EU member. But it would help only on air access ans direct ferries.

Indeed would England and may be Spain object Scottish membership. Personally, I hope they stay in the UK.

....and they could be part of the European Single Aviation Area of course.

and we'll get border reivers............

[Edited 2014-08-27 11:23:33]

Kiwirob · Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting YXXMIKE (Reply 13):
FREEEEDOM AIR anyone?

If they ask Air NZ nicely they could sell it.

yowza · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:01 pm

Next thing you know people will be saying Scotland is capable of putting together a decent football team.

Don't get the flame throwers out - I lived in Edinburgh for 7 years, that was just a bit of banter for any Scots that might be reading.

YOWza

ABQopsHP · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 3):

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 4):

My vote is for Caledonian as well

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 6):

Wasn't British Caledonian based at 'London' Gatwick ?

Yes. However they had a Scottish theme through out the company.

JD CRP

by738 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:12 pm

Those that do the majority of flying will run for the hills if there is a Yes vote, so I dont think its going to be an issue.

sandyb123 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Haggis International

Love it!

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 19):
The revenue from oil will only go so far.

And it's already been spent ten times over on healthcare, education and building ill-conceived wind farms over our most beautiful scenery.

Quoting by738 (Reply 26):
Those that do the majority of flying will run for the hills if there is a Yes vote, so I dont think its going to be an issue.

Scotland has already become a less desirable country to live in and if it goes yes the whole place is going to be left with the Neanderthal dregs once the middle class have left.

Sandyb123

(btw I am a Scot born and bread).

bendewire · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:27 pm

There have been many Scottish Airlines over the years Air Scotland, Air Ecosse plus others who have tried and failed miserably after Caledonian in the sixties, who funnily enough earnt most revenue from flying from England. I think the inability of a scottish airline to succeed proves what a miniscule country Scotland is, which also proves it is far better served by being part of the UK.

Loganair is one relatively successful 'scottish' airline serving the highlands and islands, yet they even had to succumb to being part of Flybe as a franchise

Chamonix · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:33 pm

Scottish Caledonian A Better Way To Fly!

[Edited 2014-08-27 14:34:23]

ACdreamliner · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:34 pm

Right all, we have to get this idea of Scotland rejoining the EU out our heads. Should the 18th of September yield a yes result, Scotland and Scottish people will remain in Europe. There will be no reapplying, no joining a queue. The 3 letter code SCO will be added to our cars registration plates under a European flag and our airlines will enjoy the same international freedoms they already do.

Regarding the need of a national airline, as a member of the SNP since I was 14 - i have always dreamed of a national carrier, however the business need is just not there. The reduce in APD (Air Passenger Duty) the SNP is promising will encourage even more long haul flights (possible taking away from MAN?). Thats if EDI can cope with their narrow taxiways. Short haul is pretty much sewn up with U2 and to a lesser extent BE and FR. BA will still operate their shuttle flights to LON airports too i would imagine.

The only aspect which could become a national airline is Loganair. If the Scottish government decides to buy back the franchise from BE then that could be it run as Scottish Aviation Services or some such thing. Perhaps as the bedrock of a larger airliner in the future?

sandyb123 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting acdreamliner (Reply 30):
Right all, we have to get this idea of Scotland rejoining the EU out our heads. Should the 18th of September yield a yes result, Scotland and Scottish people will remain in Europe.

You might have a job convincing Europe on that one.

Quoting acdreamliner (Reply 30):
The only aspect which could become a national airline is Loganair.

which in your utopian view wouldn't happen because...

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
EU competition rules prohibit state subsidy of airlines

So that's a double negative, which does not make a positive encase you 'think SNP'.

Is your profile up to date? Says you live in Luton which is nowhere near Scotland.

Sandyb123

bennett123 · Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:11 pm

Sure scotland be in europe.

Imo, automatic eu membership is another matter entirely.

gordonsmall · Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 27):
And it's already been spent ten times over on healthcare, education and building ill-conceived wind farms over our most beautiful scenery.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 27):
Scotland has already become a less desirable country to live in and if it goes yes the whole place is going to be left with the Neanderthal dregs once the middle class have left.

Exactly.

ADent · Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:37 pm

I think they should invite EK to be the national carrier and they can build a hub in Scotland. EK would have to pay a "small" fee and fund airport improvements themselves of course.

This would hurt their EU chances (they could kick out EK after awhile), but what the hell if they end up outside the EU.

imagoagnitio · Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 22):

Don't forget www.JockAir.co.sco

DexSwart · Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:16 pm

Logan Air. Oh. Wait.

EdinAir?

Argyle? (For some reason I like this but it would look ridiculous on t

Literally all of the good names have been taken.

pa747sp · Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 6):
Wasn't British Caledonian based at 'London' Gatwick ?

From Wiki -

'Caledonian Airways was a wholly private, independent Scottish charter airline formed in April 1961.'

'Caledonian Airways (Prestwick) was incorporated in Prestwick, Scotland, in April 1961 to conduct worldwide IT and group charter operations, with de la Haye and Thomson being appointed managing and deputy managing director respectively.

Caledonian operated its inaugural flight on 29 November 1961 from Gatwick, the newly formed airline's main operating base, to Barbados. The first revenue service, an immigrant charter under contract to London Transport Executive, operated the following day in the opposite direction.

The first fare-paying passengers to New York departed Prestwick on 21 December 1961. They had paid £40 for the return trip.'

For Scots, BCal was definitely a Scottish airline, and it did have operations out of Scotland. However, later, especially after to the merger with British United (to form British Caledonian) the bulk of its operations were from LGW.

However, in terms of marketing, the Scottish heritage was always heavily played up.

OzarkD9S · Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:00 am

Will it be based in GLA or EDI? Will it be like Swiss where ZRH is the end-all-and-be-all and GVA is the afterthought? How fun.....!

1400mph · Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:56 am

I think we should remember that Scots make up a big percentage of BA's workforce.

That said what currency will staff residing in a Scotland be paid in after a YES vote if next year GBP is no longer their home currency ?

Will their salaries be automatically exchanged ( at what rate ) to whatever currency Scotland uses before being paid into bank accounts etc ?

skipness1E · Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:16 am

This is the umpteenth thread to ask this. There's simply no gap in the market for a commercial entity to do this. Unless Salmond is planning to spend even more money he does not have after reneging on UK debt it's a non starter.

The days of flag carriers are long over in Europe.

VCEflyboy · Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 30):
I think they should invite EK to be the national carrier and they can build a hub in Scotland. EK would have to pay a "small" fee and fund airport improvements themselves of course.

This would hurt their EU chances (they could kick out EK after awhile), but what the hell if they end up outside the EU.

That would be interesting but not feasible or likely. Even if Scotland was to exit the EU they would still be part of the EU aviation market - like Iceland, Norway and Switzerland which are non-EU countries.
After MXP - JFK, EK said they would not operate that kind of 5th freedom flights for many years to come due the political backlash.

SKAirbus · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:09 am

It's funny.. the whole Scottish assumption that they will remain in the EU and will keep the Sterling when the EU and the UK government have told them otherwise is tantamount to a child telling his parents "I don't care what you say, I am going to have ice cream" right before they confiscate it from him.

Anyway I don't think there is a market for a Scottish national airline, bar Loganair who basically survive on PSOs to transport people around the highlands. Ryanair, Easyjet, Flybe, BA and a number of international players already rule the roost in Scotland and being 1/2 Scottish myself I know that the Scots will put their wallets before patriotism and go with the option that costs the least.

So if Scotland is ever going to have any hope of a national carrier it will have to be a LCC and even then they have to deal with the immense competition already in that sector.

ScottishDavie · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:24 am

Quoting bendewire (Reply 24):
I think the inability of a scottish airline to succeed proves what a miniscule country Scotland is,

What an astonishingly ignorant and offensive comment. In population terms Scotland is larger than Norway and Ireland (5.295 million against 5.077 million and 4.662 million respectively) and it is accepted by politicians on all sides of the independence debate, including David Cameron, that Scotland has the capacity to be a successful independent country.

Perhaps you've never heard of Loganair, founded in Glasgow in 1962 and still going strong 52 years later? That's the Loganair which bought Cambridge-based ScotAirways in 2011 and now has a fleet of 28 aircraft.

Of course plenty of "Scottish" airlines like Malinair, Highland Express, Chieftain and Scottish European have tried to be niche players and failed but the same applies throughout the world and the failure of small, often single-aircraft, operations is hardly a Scottish phenomenon.

Until the advent of LCCs the BA/BD duopoly meant that Scots who wanted scheduled flights to most European destinations were forced to transfer, conventional wisdom being that "the market wasn't there" for direct flights. FR, U2, 4U and others have proved how wrong that was. With long-haul services from UA, US, AC, EK, QR and many others Scotland now has a level of air service which couldn't have been imagined 20 years ago.

The days of the flag carrier have thankfully gone and nobody in their right mind would waste money and time setting up a "national" Scottish airline.

[Edited 2014-08-28 01:26:18]

Vasu · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:30 am

Who remembers this rather strange "Scottish" (Greek) outfit?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

1400mph · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 39):

I can't believe they deleted my response to the ridiculous 'Freedom Air' suggestion implying that Scotland is held captive slave like by the rest of the UK yet let this offensive comment stand ??

Anyway....what about if an independent Scotland were simply to invest heavily in upgrading its airports ?

Also is an independent Scotland free to grant additional traffic rights. If so in what capacity ?

VCEflyboy · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 38):
It's funny.. the whole Scottish assumption that they will remain in the EU and will keep the Sterling when the EU and the UK government have told them otherwise is tantamount to a child telling his parents "I don't care what you say, I am going to have ice cream" right before they confiscate it from him.

Because everybody knows they are just empty threats without any legal basis in a pathetic attempt to sway voters.

1400mph · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:50 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 42):

I think you'll find that 65 million people's decision not to underwrite the currency of a foreign country is not an empty threat.

It would also be political suicide.

Also the EU would be setting a precedent to factions within Spain if it allowed Scotland automatic membership.

There is a much bigger picture here than simply SNP's wishes.

garpd · Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting acdreamliner (Reply 26):
Right all, we have to get this idea of Scotland rejoining the EU out our heads. Should the 18th of September yield a yes result, Scotland and Scottish people will remain in Europe. There will be no reapplying, no joining a queue.

The European president and several member state leaders disagree with you and the SNP on that one.
Scotland WILL NOT be part of Europe and thanks to a likely veto from Spain will NOT be allowed to enter any time soon.

This nonsense from the SNP is very dangerous as people are actually believing them (As you seem to also) and will be voting yes on the back of it!

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 38):
It's funny.. the whole Scottish assumption that they will remain in the EU and will keep the Sterling when the EU and the UK government have told them otherwise is tantamount to a child telling his parents "I don't care what you say, I am going to have ice cream" right before they confiscate it from him.

You got that right!

Back on topic:

An independent Scotland simply does not have the travelling masses to have a large national airline and have direct flights to worldly destination other than what it has now.
It will most likely consist of a fleet of turbo props. People will continue to have to connect to Heathrow or other hubs on the continent to fly somewhere distant.

1400mph · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:19 am

I think that we should remember that whether Scotland is or isn't part of the UK in the future there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from setting up a long haul airline based within her borders should the need arise.

garpd · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 45):
I think that we should remember that whether Scotland is or isn't part of the UK in the future there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from setting up a long haul airline based within her borders should the need arise.

It has been done. Several times. All failed.

Why? Not enough people to justify a unique airline flying long haul direct from Scotland.

[email protected] · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:27 am

I suspect very little would happen and no airline, other than perhaps additional small regionals, would start.

PanHAM · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:36 am

The geographical location is not so good to justify an international airline in Scotland. Although a hub in EDI or GLA with feeds from the UK and northern / central Europe might work. But then, exactly that is done in Iceland already since decades. .

Dano1977 · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:40 am

If Scotland should gain independence from the rest of the union...

If somebody wants to waste billions on starting a new airline, then I suggest the name....

Darien Air

Quick history lesson.

The Darien Scheme was an unsuccessful attempt by the Kingdom of Scotland to become a world trading nation by establishing a colony called "Caledonia" on the Isthmus of Panama on the Gulf of Darién in the late 1690s.

The failure of the Darien colonization project has been cited as one of the motivations for the 1707 Acts of Union.

Some Scottish nobility petitioned Westminster to wipe out the Scottish national debt and stabilise the currency. Although the first request was not met, the second was and a Scottish Pound was given the fixed value of a shilling. Personal Scottish financial interests were also involved. Scottish commissioners had invested heavily in the Darien project and they believed that they would receive compensation for their losses. The 1707 Acts of Union, Article 15, granted £398,085 10s sterling to Scotland to offset future liability towards the English national debt.

pa747sp · Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:56 am

I thought Air Scotia was the flag carrier for Scotland. There was a documentary series about them on the telly.

VCEflyboy · Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
The geographical location is not so good to justify an international airline in Scotland. Although a hub in EDI or GLA with feeds from the UK and northern / central Europe might work. But then, exactly that is done in Iceland already since decades. .

I agree. An airline a-la-Icelandair connecting a hub in either GLA or EDI with major European cities and JFK BOS YUL YYZ with a 739 fleet could have a chance. They can make up the weak local seasonal demand with connecting passengers, as these routes are popular all year round.

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