dc1030cf
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Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:12 pm

With the exception of seven 757-200's in the late 90's, AY did not buy any more planes from mighty B in a long time. They were a very loyal Douglas customer before it merged with the then Seattle based giant. Having operated every DC and MD series of commercial jets from Long Beach. The carrier became a strong Toulouse supporter ever since. I am sure Big B will love to have AY as a customer again, but it doesn't look good in the foreseeable future. Does anyone know the reason why ? Thanks in advance for any insight.
 
mwhcvt
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:35 pm

Boeing cannot produce enough aircraft to satisfy demand, likewise neither can Airbus, some customers are going to go with one, some the other, and the majority will likely be mixed between the two....each carrier buys what provides the best value to them
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:39 pm

A very shocking reason, almost unfathomable even, which I'm sure comes as a total surprise to you, but maybe the planes Airbus makes have just suited AY's needs better? Scandalous, I know.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 2):
but maybe the planes Airbus makes have just suited AY's needs better? Scandalous, I know.

This^^

The OP maes it sounds as if B are being lefat alone in the playground. Both manufacturers will sell to anyone who asks and who pays the appropriate price. Perhaps FInnair thought A had the right plane and the right price to suit them.

To imagine that phone call from Finnair to B: "You're great, really great.....Its not you, its me"
 
tim73
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:46 pm

Well, the way Putin is behaving, soon there will be no overflights over Russia and there goes the Finnair's vital routes. They have tried every trick on the book to save money, fired tons of people and outsourced everything they can think of, but still having losses in almost every quarter. They will be soon early adopters of A350, getting them cheaper and trying to save money even that way.

[Edited 2014-08-27 14:48:32]
 
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larshjort
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting dc1030cf (Thread starter):
Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

The only Boeings AY has ever flown are 2 leased 737's and 7 757's. Also with a fleet the size of AY's it is benificial to have commonality between the fleets.

/Lars
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KarelXWB
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:03 pm

Finnair was looking for an A340 replacement within a reasonable timeframe. The 787-9 was a bit too small, the 787-10 lacks range and availability while the 77W is too big. Coupled with a few A330s, Airbus offered them a good deal.

The A330/A350 combination simply fits their network requirements.

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Finn350
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:05 pm

Finnair is not big enough to have either narrowbodies or widebodies from two different manufacturers. Maybe narrowbodies could come from one manufacturer and widebodies from the other, though Airbus commonality might play a role here. And Finnair got their A350s at a really good price, as they ordered them at a time when aircraft demand was low.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Finnair was looking for an A340 replacement within a reasonable timeframe.

I thought they were actually looking for an MD-11 replacement, ordered A350 (the original) and got A330/A340s as an interim solution in the same deal. The A350 order was later upgraded to an A350XWB order.

[Edited 2014-08-27 15:10:05]
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting dc1030cf (Thread starter):
Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore? 

You make it sound as if they used to be a regular Boeing customer when in fact they only ordered some 757 years ago. Besides being a very loyal customer in Long Beach, AY has also operated some Caravelles, and Air Atlanta Icelandic flew for some time a 737-200C for Finnair Cargo. Other than that, it appears that Big A offers what suits best to Finnair's needs.
 
UA444
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:06 am

"If it ain't Douglas, I ain't going Boeing".
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:34 am

Alot of the Douglas heavy Euro carriers went Airbus. Swissair, Iberia, Austrian etc. Sas went Boeing but have struggled due to them ordering the wrong Boeing model. This has created a situation where the main base dont want Boeings but instead is turned into an airbus base.

While business always rules the day carriers aligned to Douglas where in no way pro Boeing. Boeing were the competitor so buying them didn't come natural at all. To the contrary it was like switching to the opposition.

Boeing is also a more us against the opposition focused producer. That sales mentality rarely sees longtime success in Northern Europe where humbleness, concensus and letting the product speak for itself is the going mantra and the best way to achieve longterm success. Selling campaigns focused on your competitors perceived weaknesses isnt as effective here as in north america
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lucce
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:51 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 7):
Finnair is not big enough to have either narrowbodies or widebodies from two different manufacturers. Maybe narrowbodies could come from one manufacturer and widebodies from the other, though Airbus commonality might play a role here.

Many AY pilots have cross certification for A320/A330 or A320/A340 but I'm not sure about maintenance as it's outsourced and at least some of it is done in SIN and Dresden so of the benefits of commonality might be lost.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 9):
"If it ain't Douglas, I ain't going Boeing".

Some of AY's ex-Beach Fleet pilots might disagree, at least judging by the song starting at 3:08 http://vimeo.com/86582837  
 
starbucks
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:00 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):

Except that picture is from SAS...
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:03 am

Quoting dc1030cf (Thread starter):
Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Because Boeing has a just as mighty competitor ...  
 
kaitak
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:04 am

The 757 deal was very much the exception; they used to operate A300s and they found - not surprisingly - that the 757 was an excellent replacement, so really - at that time - it was because the 757 suited their needs.

They had always been a Douglas customer and Airbus won them over, first to long haul, then to short haul. I don't see Boeing getting a look in anytime soon.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:38 am

Quoting starbucks (Reply 12):
Except that picture is from SAS...

Finland, Norway, Sweden, isn't that all the same   
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sailas
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:49 am

Do not forget that FInlands military company Patria makes parts for Airbus, giving more logic into turning towards airbus.
But as others said the benefit of a320 pilots being able to fly the big boys with only a little amount of training. I doubt in the end the 77W is too big for AY. They do still have 8 options for the a350, which means they can even order the 1000 variant or the R variant if they want. Im hoping in 1000 orders for AY, unless political things stop things in their tracks. Sure AY has saved a lot of money, but they have extremely poor management, and incompetent CEO's. Finns running a Finnish company is a recipe for disaster in my books.
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HELFAN
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:01 am

Finnair is also using extensively the Embraer 170/190 jets through their partner Flybe Nordic in the European operations so a third narrow body family would make no sense. The E-jets operate under AY flight numbers.
 
SASMD82
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:09 am

Quoting starbucks (Reply 12):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
Except that picture is from SAS...

Some people think Finland is part of Scandinavia.

The arguments for ordering the A350-900 he states are as clear a glass I think.
 
sailas
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:36 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 18):
Some people think Finland is part of Scandinavia.

Surprising, as i have never met anyone who would allow the idea of Finland belonging to Scandinavia. Sure the pic is from SK but gives a bit of insight on what AY could do with its XWB. I think singapore will be interesting for AY with the A350, as it is now only served with the a340, due to the inadequate range of the a333.
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Rara
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:52 am

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 1):
Boeing cannot produce enough aircraft to satisfy demand, likewise neither can Airbus

Sure they can... Demand and supply is carefully balanced by both manufacturers. It just appears that demand is greater because of the long backlogs, but this is really just due to the stability of the market and the long planning horizons of the airlines.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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MD80
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:01 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 10):
While business always rules the day carriers aligned to Douglas where in no way pro Boeing. Boeing were the competitor so buying them didn't come natural at all. To the contrary it was like switching to the opposition.

I´ve never seen "the letter" but I have the information that a number of very loyal Douglas-operators asked Boeing after the end of McDonnell Douglas to continue the production of the MD-80/-90 and MD-95 for many reasons. The shift of production of these aircraft to China was mentioned (due to the licensed-built MD-80s and MD-90s and the experience earned there).

Boeing at least tried at several very important occasions to win Finnair as a customer before they decided to order four Boeing 757s in the mid-1990s.

The first one was probably the wish to sell the Boeing 707. Finnair decided to take the DC-8.

The second occasion was the selection of a short haul jetliner to enable the replacement of a portion of the Convair-fleet and Finnair opted to take eight used DC-9-10s.

The third occasion was the requirement of Finnair to operate an airplane nonstop between Helsinki and Tokyo with the need to fly around Siberia and the need to replace the last three Caravelle-jetliners. McDonnell Douglas were eager to retain Finnair as a loyal customer and Finnair decided to order one DC-10-30ER and made the important decision to take three MD-82s. The rest is history: Finnair became the co-launch customers for the MD-83 (together with Alaska Airlines), the MD-87 (together with Austrian Airlines), and the MD-11 (together with a number of other airlines).

The fourth occasion was the evaluation in 1993/94 for a switch to 30 Boeing 737X (later Boeing 737NG) and six Boeing 767-300ERs to replace the entire fleet and to reduce the number of aircraft-types to two.

Finnair evaluated all aspects and made a decision against the Boeing-idea and ordered an additional MD-11 + agreed to lease 17 additional MD-80s to replace their 17 DC-9s. Only eight additional MD-80s were leased while the DC-9-50s soldiered on until 2003.

So, Finnair was historically a "Douglas-Airline" until they made the fundamental decision to select the Airbus A320-family.

Regards
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting sailas (Reply 16):
Im hoping in 1000 orders for AY, unless political things stop things in their tracks.

Bigger than EK!!!  
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 18):
Some people think Finland is part of Scandinavia.

I was one of those for the longest time. Found it strange Finland is not, but Denmark is. But having not ben to any Norse, Scandinavian or Baltic countries... I have no sense for the differences amongst them.
learning never stops.
 
dc1030cf
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:45 pm

Reply to MD80 from Germany : Much appreciated for your detailed explanation. I learnt a great deal. Appreciations also to all other answers. Many thanks. Keep'em coming!
 
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MD80
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 23):
I was one of those for the longest time. Found it strange Finland is not, but Denmark is. But having not ben to any Norse, Scandinavian or Baltic countries... I have no sense for the differences amongst them.

You are not alone. Even McDonnell Douglas once published a sticker regarding the DC-9 at Finnair with the slogan: "Pride of Scandinavia" IIRC 

@DC1030CF: A pleasure, thank you!
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Eagleboy
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting starbucks (Reply 12):
Except that picture is from SAS...

Actually looks more like an Airbus demonstration aimed at SAS. But the range is still valid...just shift it a bit to the north to adjust for HEL.

Quoting sailas (Reply 19):
Surprising, as i have never met anyone who would allow the idea of Finland belonging to Scandinavia. Sure the pic is from SK but gives a bit of insight on what AY could do with its XWB

Or do it yourself for the
A333: http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...t/a330family/a330-300/performance/
A359: http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...350xwbfamily/a350-900/performance/
 
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HELyes
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 21):
The fourth occasion was the evaluation in 1993/94 for a switch to 30 Boeing 737X (later Boeing 737NG) and six Boeing 767-300ERs to replace the entire fleet and to reduce the number of aircraft-types to two.

I wonder how their fleet would look now if they had taken that path.. B738? B772? and B789 coming?

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 23):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 18):
Some people think Finland is part of Scandinavia.
Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 23):
I was one of those for the longest time. Found it strange Finland is not, but Denmark is. But having not ben to any Norse, Scandinavian or Baltic countries... I have no sense for the differences amongst them.

Officially Denmark, Norway, Sweden make Scandinavia, ad Finland and Iceland and you get the Nordic countries.
Especially outside of the Nordic region the term Scandinavia is often used as a synonym for the Nordic countries.
 
Flighty
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:22 pm

AY has unique (low) range requirements. The M11 and even DC-10 covered their range and capacity needs. So, the 777 is a waste of capability (weight) for them, 77W way too large and way too capable. But the A333 is ideal. Boeing does not sell what AY needs.



[Edited 2014-08-28 11:28:53]
 
airproxx
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):

Finnair was looking for an A340 replacement within a reasonable timeframe. The 787-9 was a bit too small, the 787-10 lacks range and availability while the 77W is too big. Coupled with a few A330s, Airbus offered them a good deal.

Looking at the pic and those figures, it feels like the A350 is the Twin Airbus should have built years ago in due place of the A340-300.... Same MTOW, Almost same range.... But cheaper to operate... Funny to see where 4engines vs 2engines leaded nowadays  
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
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MD80
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RE: Why Isn't Finnair Buying From Mighty B Anymore?

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting HELyes (Reply 27):
I wonder how their fleet would look now if they had taken that path.. B738? B772? and B789 coming?

The scenario would have resulted in a fleet of Boeing 737NGs (Boeing 737-600/-700/-800 and/or -900s) and Boeing 767-300ERs and possibly at a later stage the Boeing 777 but member "Flighty" correctly points out that the 777 would be generally "too much aircraft".

Even the MD-11 was considered a little bit too large in 1984 (approx. two/three years before they officially decided to order the MD-11).

I think that the decision to introduce the versatile Boeing 757 with 219 (later 227 seats I think) was mainly due to the aim to be more flexible and IIRC to enable the retirement of the two 314-seat A300s as well as transfer of one high-density configured MD-11 back to scheduled services. The 757 provided the size and performance needed to perform a large variety of charter services provided by Finnair. It also allowed to release the MD-83 from the longest charter-routes to more appropriate legs.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 7):
I thought they were actually looking for an MD-11 replacement,

I´ve heard the joke (?) that one of the CEO´s of Finnair once said that "the best replacement for an MD-11 would be a new MD-11"  

This was probably a variation of a well-known phrase used for the DC-3.

Regards
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