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DeltaRules
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BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 pm

A few months ago, a thread was posted based on information from a "BA insider" on FlyerTalk regarding a potential BA expansion to less "big name" US destinations using the 787 including, to the surprise of some, Columbus, Ohio. At that point, it didn't seem like there was much behind the rumor beyond speculation and previous articles (at least on CMH's part) from The Columbus Dispatch talking about CMH's hopes to land trans-Atlantic service.

Now, we have something to work with. In today's Dispatch, Steve Wartenburg interviews the Columbus Regional Airport Authority's David Whitaker. CRAA has been in discussions with BA apparently for quite some time, and Whitaker says a BA expansion is likely, with CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, and IND on their short list. He also notes he'd be "surprised if they selected more than one".

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...light-to-london-it-may-happen.html

If any expansion were to take place, it would be decided upon in early 2015, with service to start in 2016.

This will be fun to watch.

[Edited 2014-08-28 12:50:01]
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flyCMH
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:50 pm

LOL, you beat me to it by 7 minutes!

Below is the aforementioned previous thread (part 1):

BA Lookng At PDX, CMH, SLC And CLT (by ANA787 Jun 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:05 pm

I think British Airways will add St. Louis or Nashville (STL is the bigger market, but BNA has the booming economy) and American might use 75Ls to add Columbus, Cleveland or Indianapolis.
a.
 
flyCMH
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Given what we know highlighted in the part 1, as well as in this most recent article, my personal opinion is that STL has the best chance of securing BA service to LHR. St. Louis is the largest of the 5 cities, has actual connection possibilities on the U.S. side (via Cape Air), and likely still maintains a decent AAdvantage following, which would likely make use of a oneworld partner's flight to LHR. As much as I would love to see an LHR-bound 787 out of CMH, I'd like to see at least a CMH-SFO route first.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
American might use 75Ls to add Columbus, Cleveland or Indianapolis.

I would be more than happy with this.

[Edited 2014-08-28 13:11:35]
 
DeltaRules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting flyCMH (Reply 1):
LOL, you beat me to it by 7 minutes!


The funny part about that is I missed this altogether until I saw the headline on the print version of the paper lying on the floor. I'm just glad we have something to talk about and there's some traction to what was said before about CMH and BA!

CLE can have F9 if CMH can land BA.  
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greenair727
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:17 pm

^ I don't have any numbers at the moment, but CLE is certainly larger than STL, no? DO NOT use the census bureau numbers for metro population as they incorrectly label Akron (about 25 minutes from CLE Hopkins Airport) as NOT part of Cleveland. So if you look at the 1970 Census, Metro Cleveland had 3million people. By 1980, the Census Bureau said it had 2 million. Cleveland didn't lose a million people---they just stopped including (for political reasons I've been told) Akron from Cleveland--even though its the same market. I believe the true 'catchment' population of CLE Hopkins is around 4.5 million. Cleveland is the biggest US market without EU service. I'd say BA, if they do their homework correctly, would pick CLE over STL (or IND/CMH)....
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:48 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 5):
I believe the true 'catchment' population of CLE Hopkins is around 4.5 million. Cleveland is the biggest US market without EU service. I'd say BA, if they do their homework correctly, would pick CLE over STL (or IND/CMH)....

2013 census numbers are below. I tried to be consistent about adding outlying MSAs but would welcome an argument to add or subtract some

Saint Louis: 2.81 million

Cleveland Akron/Canton: 2.77 million

Indianapolis + Terre Haute + Columbus (Indiana) + Lafayette: 2.41 million

Nashville + Bowling Green + Clarksville: 2.21 million

Columbus+ Springfield: 2.11 million
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PITrules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:10 pm

That list was given by a member of the Columbus airport authority, not by British Airways. For the purposes of a local newspaper interview, I think he just threw out a few likely cities CMH is competing with; (although each is a good possibility). I doubt it is an all inclusive list, especially since PDX and MSY would also be considered. I would think DTW and PIT are still under consideration as well. Only BA/AA has this information internally.

Keep in mind CMH, CLE, DTW, and PIT are all within (AA) 757 range which only improves the chances these cities have.

I do find it interesting no new cities in 2015; we will have to wait until 2016. A lot can happen by then.

[Edited 2014-08-28 14:14:14]
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:13 pm

Cleveland would be great, but if CO couldn't make it happen even with feed at Hopkins, would an airline with no feed on the US end (BA) be able to make it happen? I hope so, would love it. We'll see. I guess BA have had a very positive start with Austin so they're looking for other secondary markets in the US where they might be able to have a monopoly on nonstop service across the pond.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Columbus Springfield: 2.11 million

Springfield, OH is actually its own metropolitan area. However, it has historically always associated more with the Dayton metropolitan area.

Census figures paint a murky picture at best. As previously mentioned, Akron is not a part of the Cleveland MSA. However there is a great deal of cross-flow between the two population areas. In fact, Akron doesn't even have a television media market (DMA); it's part of Cleveland. The argument has even been made as of late that Dayton should be combined into Cincinnati's CSA, as growth along the I-75 corridor has already bridged the two MSAs.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting flyCMH (Reply 9):
Springfield, OH is actually its own metropolitan area. However, it has historically always associated more with the Dayton metropolitan area.

I know. I added it because it is between the two and because DAY lacks TATL service. I could see an argument for leaving it out, though, because some Springfield folks likely do use DAY.
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GulfstreamFive
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
2013 census numbers are below. I tried to be consistent about adding outlying MSAs but would welcome an argument to add or subtract some

Census population is only a small part of the analysis. There are huge cities with little air service (Kinsasha FZAA has a population of over 9 million, but only a handful of flights per day)

The more important question is number of people who would fly the route (and at what price point.) That information is exceptionally valuable and hard to find with google.

A better place to start is DOT numbers of people who fly between those cities and big european destinations. That will give you the raw data, but it will not tell you how much they paid. Sometimes very small cities can have very wealthy clients who need to travel (think Zurich)
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 10):
I could see an argument for leaving it out, though, because some Springfield folks likely do use DAY.

Indeed. And vis-à-vis, some use CMH. Catchment areas are tough to determine on one's own accord in that the percentage of a given population that is drawn to any one airport needs to be researched and determined. It's safe to say that Springfield (and all of Clark County) are part of both the DAY and CMH catchment area. The interesting part is what percentage of the traveling population utilize one airport over an other.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:35 pm

Its not about census numbers but rather O&D.

Actually of the markets being considered, the largest O&D market to LHR is IND.
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ANA787
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):

Would you mind providing up to date O&D numbers for the airports above without nonstop service to LON? Including SLC, PDX and MSY?

[Edited 2014-08-28 14:49:07]
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting cedarjet:

Cleveland would be great, but if CO couldn't make it happen even with feed at Hopkins, would an airline with no feed on the US end (BA) be able to make it happen? I hope so, would love it. We'll see. I guess BA have had a very positive start with Austin so they're looking for other secondary markets in the US where they might be able to have a monopoly on nonstop service across the pond.

I'm not certain that CLE didn't work for CO, rather,they decided to kill it in favor of an additional EWR flight. CO operated the route for years. If they lost money on it, they would have pulled it sooner than later. Also, initial flights were to LGW---once they got the slot at LHR they wanted to give it to NYC instead. CLE is a big population and business market and London is CLE's #1 transatlantic city. With feed on the LHR side, CLE makes a lot of sense for a new route to the US.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023:

Its not about census numbers but rather O&D.

Actually of the markets being considered, the largest O&D market to LHR is IND.

where do you find this data?
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:00 pm

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 14):
Would you mind providing up to date O&D numbers for the airports above without nonstop service to LON? Including SLC, PDX and MSY?

No, just the cities in the title of the thread.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 16):
where do you find this data?

IATA 2012 data.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:14 pm

MSY is supposed to be very close to getting BA service.

having said that, AUS set the bar high. I hope that the next "smaller" city they choose also hits it out of the park like AUS did so that BA can continue looking at others.

But it is a good plan by BA. Focus on cities where you don't have to compete with the likes of EK.
Make passengers choose between BA AUS-LHR-BOM or AUS-IAH-DXB-BOM for example.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 18):
But it is a good plan by BA. Focus on cities where you don't have to compete with the likes of EK.
Make passengers choose between BA AUS-LHR-BOM or AUS-IAH-DXB-BOM for example.

AUS has no shot whatsoever of getting an ME3 carrier for the foseeable future. AUS is going to have BA, but its not going to get anything else over the water. AUS is also a HUGE OneWorld city. That propells it a lot as well.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:24 pm

I wish they would add CVG to that list. CVG has a lot of euro business with P&G....Sadly, DL's monopoly will probably prevent this.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
Actually of the markets being considered, the largest O&D market to LHR is IND.

Of course, those numbers tell us nothing about folks who may make the trip over the water on two tickets. I assume there is some non-zero population of people in each of these places who buy that way. I don't know whether or why those numbers might vary across cities.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
Of course, those numbers tell us nothing about folks who may make the trip over the water on two tickets. I assume there is some non-zero population of people in each of these places who buy that way. I don't know whether or why those numbers might vary across cities.

Ok, but you can say that for any city in the world. That assumption doesnt make the arguement any different here.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):
Ok, but you can say that for any city in the world. That assumption doesnt make the arguement any different here.

No, I agree, and I don't know how fine the differences between the cities are. But if they are small, on the order of 5 or 10 percent, I don't know that we can conclude that one actually has more O&D than the other.

The other hard-to-quanitfy issue is the question of how much of the existing TATL demand will move over to the nonstop. Oneworld loyalty is a major difference that impacts this, and it probably favors former AA hubs like BNA and STL over the others.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:56 pm

So when I fly to Europe, from CLE, I routinely drive to DTW for nonstop service, about 3 hours from downtown to airport, a little less than that. People in STL for instance, just don't have that kind of option. Neither do people from PIT really. CMH? Well I guess they can drive to CVG for one flight. .. .So how do they count people like me?
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:13 am

BA has actually visited SLC and has actually attended an airport meeting. This was all before DL announced SLC-AMS which i think was announced unusually early for next summer to make SLC-LHR less attractive to BA. Now SLC will have 2 non-stops to Europe. It would be cool but Delta has already said publicly they want to add SLC-LHR when they can get a slot in government filings so it can't look that attractive.

SLC, CLT, or PDX would all be cities with proven abilities to support Europe flights. CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal. Much higher risk. I think businesses would really need to financially support a non-stop to get it.

I can't imagine BA would even consider CLE. CO couldn't even make a 757 work with feed from a then large hub.

Based on reading this article it means almost nothing. The city is obviously trying to convince BA to come to CMH but any city could probably be in London and BA would let them present an offer and set up an hour meeting. The key word to me in this article is "pitched" BA let them visit and present an incentive offer, I don't see this as a big deal at all or even news worthy. Hey good luck to them though i think CMH has a better shot then some other cities on this list. Why not an AA 757 to CMH I have to wonder? I thought AA has alot of slack in its international configured 757 schedule right now and i bet you BA who has so many slots could make something work if there's money to be made for them. Wouldn't a 757 be a better sized plane and CMH is in range

[Edited 2014-08-28 17:26:48]
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 24):
People in STL for instance, just don't have that kind of option. Neither do people from PIT really. CMH? Well I guess they can drive to CVG for one flight. .. .So how do they count people like me?

Of the markets we are discussing, CMH and IND (~1.5 hours to CVG) are probably most likely to drive.

CLE (~3 hours to DTW) is probably next.

I don't really know anybody in BNA who drives the 4 hours to ATL to get a flight, nor did I know anybody who drove to ORD or MEM from STL when I lived in Saint Louis.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 19):
AUS has no shot whatsoever of getting an ME3 carrier for the foseeable future.

That was precisely my point and why it was a good move for BA. Go where others won't. Find your niche.
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Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
SLC, CLT, or PDX would all be cities with proven abilities to support Europe flights. CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal.

I don't really understand your point here. We know that CLT is grossly overserved to Europe, as AA's cuts for next summer establish. I don't know that SLC or PDX is overserved, but why is it so self-evident that a third daily TATL flights ex-SLC is preferable to a first daily TATL flight ex-IND?
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
I think businesses would really need to financially support a non-stop to get it.

In the Indy area (including Lafayette, Terre Haute, Columbus and Bloomington), you get:

  • Eli Lilly
  • Cummins Engine
  • Cook Pharmica
  • Honda
  • Toyota
  • Subaru NA
  • Rolls Royce Engine Plant
  • Dow AgroScience


That's not to mention the other more minor players in the Indy area that could fill a non-stop to LHR. I'm not saying we could fill an A380 twice daily, or that even a daily non-stop would be needed. But a 3x weekly non-stop should be doable, and if need be anyone needed to return early can always connect back through JFK or ORD.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:49 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
SLC, CLT, or PDX would all be cities with proven abilities to support Europe flights. CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal.

I don't really understand your point here. We know that CLT is grossly overserved to Europe, as AA's cuts for next summer establish. I don't know that SLC or PDX is overserved, but why is it so self-evident that a third daily TATL flights ex-SLC is preferable to a first daily TATL flight ex-IND?

Im just say they are different strategies. Ones that have service to Europe and have proven they can support and those that don't have service but also are total unknowns if they could support even a single flight to Europe. Depends on where BA sees more potential. I dont know which is better. The unknown cities i think are higher risk, but also higher reward if they pay off. CLT for example BA knows they can always push connections in CLT and minimize any potential of a major loss. In IND if they have an empty flight n a wednesday in Fall its gonna be tough to fill that plane no matter what they do.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 15):
Quoting cedarjet:
Cleveland would be great, but if CO couldn't make it happen even with feed at Hopkins, would an airline with no feed on the US end (BA) be able to make it happen? I hope so, would love it. We'll see. I guess BA have had a very positive start with Austin so they're looking for other secondary markets in the US where they might be able to have a monopoly on nonstop service across the pond.
I'm not certain that CLE didn't work for CO, rather,they decided to kill it in favor of an additional EWR flight. CO operated the route for years. If they lost money on it, they would have pulled it sooner than later. Also, initial flights were to LGW---once they got the slot at LHR they wanted to give it to NYC instead. CLE is a big population and business market and London is CLE's #1 transatlantic city. With feed on the LHR side, CLE makes a lot of sense for a new route to the US.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
I can't imagine BA would even consider CLE. CO couldn't even make a 757 work with feed from a then large

Couldn't make it work for ten years in fact, long time to endure...as they were slowly dismantling the hub throughout the duration
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 30):
In IND if they have an empty flight n a wednesday in Fall its gonna be tough to fill that plane no matter what they do.

. . . which differs from SLC or PDX how?
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 30):
In IND if they have an empty flight n a wednesday in Fall its gonna be tough to fill that plane no matter what they do.

. . . which differs from SLC or PDX how?

The markets have proven there is a population in those cities willing to pay a premium for a non-stop and a population willing to pay for a premium seat on long hauls. They can lower airfares and steal more passengers connecting on Delta thru CDG or AMS potentially if they need to minimize loses and it will be easier to get people in the seats from those cities. BA will certainly see a major o&d bump from tourists if they add SLC or PDX, i don't see any type of tourist bump to IND so that o&d will be much harder to stimulate by fare sales. If you live in England and BA has a sale to SLC in the off season to go skiing or visit some of the worlds best national parks in the Fall they will certainly be able to fill the seats with a sale(aka less risk), with IND i don't see any type of a fare sale is gonna make someone from england want to vacation in IND. An empty flight is gonna be much harder to fill aka larger loss aka more risk
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:18 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):

You're missing the point that there's only so much traffic to go around. SLC is a relatively small market, so CDG and AMS are going to be enough for now. If LHR happens (on BA or DL), it will steal traffic away from the other 2 TATL flights and something will have to give. Further, PDX has already shown it cannot easily support 2 carriers to Europe given LH's exit once DL entered. Because LHR is a larger market than AMS, I suspect that we may see DL exit PDX-AMS if BA starts PDX-LHR, especially given the buildup at SEA.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
The markets have proven there is a population in those cities willing to pay a premium for a non-stop and a population willing to pay for a premium seat on long hauls.

What did the arrival of SLC-CDG nonstop do for average fares in the market?

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
BA will certainly see a major o&d bump from tourists if they add SLC or PDX, i don't see any type of tourist bump to IND so that o&d will be much harder to stimulate by fare sales.

Of the cities discussed on this thread, I don't know that any besides Nashville (and there only from the very odd and geographically disparate places where country music is popular) is a large draw for international tourists. With regard to Utah, Europeans can easily find better skiing much closer to home. No one but the most serious American skier is going from the States to Portillo or Chamonix to ski. The same is true inbound to the States.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:46 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26):
I don't really know anybody in BNA who drives the 4 hours to ATL to get a flight, nor did I know anybody who drove to ORD or MEM from STL when I lived in Saint Louis.

I know many who have driven from BOS area to JFK for flights: A well-served airport losing customers to a mega-served airport. Saving $$$ and/or getting the non-stop is usually part of the deal.

Here's a more recent anecdote - I have a friend who had to drive his grandparents to JFK since they refused to fly EK and only would fly AI to DEL.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
I assume there is some non-zero population of people in each of these places who buy that way.

In the US its probably non-zero but probably very small and insignificant and probably to/from niche destinations. Its also very easy to get burnt on multiple tickets. I would give myself a lot of wiggle room. I did BOS-LHR-SIN with my final destination as MDC but gave my self 26 hours in SIN to be safe.
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777STL
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
SLC, CLT, or PDX would all be cities with proven abilities to support Europe flights. CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal. Much higher risk. I think businesses would really need to financially support a non-stop to get it.

Sure, if you go back about a decade, so does STL.

STL has more people and much more big business than CMH or PDX does. It also has a strong residual AA frequent flyer base that neither SLC or PDX has.
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slowroll
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:13 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
No one but the most serious American skier is going from the States to Portillo or Chamonix to ski. The same is true inbound to the States.

Lol, an average day on the slopes at Snowbird would say otherwise.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting slowroll (Reply 38):
Lol, an average day on the slopes at Snowbird would say otherwise.

There's an easy way to prove this point, no? If inbound ski tourism were significant, presumably frequency and/or gauge would go up in the winter.

Currently, SLC-CDG is a daily 332. This winter, it's a 5 weekly 763.
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timpdx
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting slowroll (Reply 38):

So true. skiing is a bargain over here for Europeans and Brits and I have many Europeans comment that the slopes here are not only cheaper but the snow is superior. The Alps, they say, have had had subpar snowfalls for over a decade now and global warming is shortenibg the season by a decent amount. Deer Valley, Vail, Heavenly...lots of accents heard in the lift lines and the local watering holes.
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slowroll
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:22 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
There's an easy way to prove this point, no? If inbound ski tourism were significant, presumably frequency and/or gauge would go up in the winter.

Currently, SLC-CDG is a daily 332. This winter, it's a 5 weekly 763.

That would only be meaningful if a) DL was the only carrier into SLC, and b) summer traffic to/from europe/slc was a non-factor. Just because Summer is more popular via CDG doesn't imply anything about whether it's a popular ski destination.

I don't know what the actual numbers are. I just know there are a lot of euros on the slopes (however, I will say I hear a lot more german spoken over brit english).
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:47 am

I think we can all agree the midwest is somewhat underserved when it comes to Europe.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 29):
Honda
Toyota
Subaru NA

That's more gearing towards Asia. Maybe JL or NH would want to jump into the ring for these.

Plus, Toyota and Honda are also big players in the Cincinnati market...
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DeltaRules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:37 am

Honda also has a plant just NW of Columbus (OH) in Marysville.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal. Much higher risk. I think businesses would really need to financially support a non-stop to get it.
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joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:47 am

First it was CMH and a handful of cities, now it's CMH and handful of other cities
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
No one but the most serious American skier is going from the States to Portillo or Chamonix to ski. The same is true inbound to the States.

Its not super common for americans to travel to Europe or South America to ski but its incredibly common for British to travel to America. Beyond common its the single most important foreign market to most western areas and only second to mexico at some areas.

You couldn't be wrong and clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Do you have any idea how much ski real estate British resident own in US ski resorts? Stowe, Mammoth, Park City, Aspen, Vail all have HUGE numbers of Brits and its super common to see them come here to ski. BA flight to Denver is often packed in the winter bringing whole plane fulls of brits in to ski. I worked for a winter in Vail and was constantly checking in Europeans. I mean several rooms a night every single night. Anyone who really skis knows the Europeans do come here to ski alot, and the British are by far the highest numbers. I can't tell you the amount of times ive been on the vail shuttle bus and whole british extended families were on vacation. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Colorado/Utah skiing is fantastic and nice to go to a place where everyone speaks english and they can let their childen explore and send them to ski school easily etc etc

I have alot of friends who work in ski sales for areas out west, almost all travel to England to book large ski groups and ski clubs. Its a common stop on all western major resorts tours in the fall.

Western skiing is totally different than skiing in Europe. to say that skiing is better in europe shows you have no idea what your talking about, its different. I greatly prefer the skiing out west. I would take Deer Valley or Vail anyday over Chamonix.

Last year Utah had 23.5 million visitors. Incredible for a state with less than 3 million people! $7.4 Billion in visitor spending. In City Creek the super nice brand new mall in downtown SLC almost 1/3 of spending is by out of state residents! Thats a huge number for an upscale large mall there are clearly visitors. That is the reason why SLC o&d its so much higher than its population. Its population could never support a legacy hub.

[Edited 2014-08-28 22:27:49]
 
PITrules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:18 am

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 18):
MSY is supposed to be very close to getting BA service.

Source? The only place I've seen this 'rumor' propagated is on this site, based on an Anna Aero op ed with a very misleading title, which is evident when reading the text and remarks.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 25):
SLC, CLT, or PDX would all be cities with proven abilities to support Europe flights. CMH, CLE, BNA, STL, IND are a whole totally different type of animal. Much higher risk.
CLE and STL very much have supported flights to Europe via multiple airlines each, and for longer than PDX or SLC have no less. BNA to a lesser extent due to the pull down of the AA hub. The difference now is the hub would be on the other end.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
The markets have proven there is a population in those cities willing to pay a premium for a non-stop and a population willing to pay for a premium seat on long hauls. They can lower airfares and steal more passengers connecting on Delta thru CDG or AMS potentially if they need to minimize loses and it will be easier to get people in the seats from those cities. BA will certainly see a major o&d bump from tourists if they add SLC or PDX, i don't see any type of tourist bump to IND so that o&d will be much harder to stimulate by fare sales. If you live in England and BA has a sale to SLC in the off season to go skiing or visit some of the worlds best national parks in the Fall they will certainly be able to fill the seats with a sale(aka less risk), with IND i don't see any type of a fare sale is gonna make someone from england want to vacation in IND. An empty flight is gonna be much harder to fill aka larger loss aka more risk

If if if.

Perhaps CMH or IND wouldn't need a 'bump from tourists' considering their corporate presence? OTOH, of the listed IND corporations, I haven't heard of half of them.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 37):

STL has more people and much more big business than CMH or PDX does.

No doubt more than PDX when it comes to big business; but I wouldn't underestimate CMH in that regard.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):

Of the cities discussed on this thread, I don't know that any besides Nashville (and there only from the very odd and geographically disparate places where country music is popular) is a large draw for international tourists.
MSY, PDX?

[Edited 2014-08-28 22:52:14]
FLYi
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:35 am

I don't see why CMH can't pursue AA for a 757 link to LHR? I know BA has the slots but i am sure they could work something out since BA has money to be made as well. CMH seems like an outstanding city for a 757, its location would work.
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:25 am

St. Louis is the smallest out of the 5 cities. It is shrinking a little each year. I cannot see St. Louis working as well as the other 4.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:58 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 48):
St. Louis is the smallest out of the 5 cities. It is shrinking a little each year. I cannot see St. Louis working as well as the other 4

If you consider the city proper you are correct, however the metro area approaches 3 million, as Cubsrule noted earlier. But it is the corporate presence in the metro area which will drive a potential LHR flight, even if until now they have not opened their wallets to subsidize the route.

As shown in the ongoing STL thread the Lambert airport director has stated they are "close" to a European flight, but was not specific as to a destination. Maybe she has been able to get the subsidies needed...

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