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BHMNONREV
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:51 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 92):
IT is really in BA's interest to fly to Ceveland and St. Louis ? Austin is a special case, BA is getting a subsidy from the city as they do in Baltimore. There are prefectly good airports in London for cities who don't have Heathrow service for a flight to Lonson. Stansted and Gatwick are quite acceptable, most BA & Virgin flights to the Caribean and Orlando go from Gatwick.

Just as they will be getting a subsidy from STL, CMH, MSY, etc...

And while Gatwick and Stansted may be fine airports they are a non-starter here. It is not only Heathrow that is the interest, it is the beyond BA connectivity that may make or break the flight after said subsidies run out. As stated earlier STL's O&D to London is behind that of IND and MSY, but larger overall to Europe.

Now if we could just do something about those crappy CBP facilities there..  
 
UA444
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:33 am

Wish they'd restart DTW and give DL some much needed competition.
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 98):

Certainly didn't mean to offend but the data from the Census and BLS are easily available. I can assure what I said was true: metro population is now level, 50k+ jobs added in Cleveland metro since 2009. Best five years of job growth since the 1990s. No reason why it shouldn't be considered for BA service.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 102):

Do you have a link?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Planeflyer
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:00 am

There is a good article in today's WSJ re Cleveland's resurgence. Sorry could not link it.
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 93):
CVG already has service to Europe through CDG, which is notorious for it's horrid connections

That's DL's fault. They routinely shaft cincinnati.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:23 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 103):

A link? Look it up yourself. Everything I stated is true.
 
flyguy89
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 105):
Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 93):
CVG already has service to Europe through CDG, which is notorious for it's horrid connections

That's DL's fault. They routinely shaft cincinnati.

I've never had a bad experience connecting through CDG, it does the job and obviously a lot of people do it, baggage claim is ABSURDLY slow however if you're not connecting. In any case, I don't think it's a matter of DL shafting CVG again. Paris is Cincinnati's third most demanded international destination after Cancun and Toronto as well as its most trafficked international route by far. Not to mention GE's joint-venture with Paris-based Safran and the lucrative cargo it provides.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 106):

I'm not the one making claims I can't substantiate. The burden of proof is on you.

Put up or shut up...
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
masseybrown
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 98):
I just showed you links that it losing people and you don't have anything to back up your statements.
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/...f/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

The Cleveland MSA (Cuyahoga,Geauga, Lake, Lorain, and Medina Counties) population in July, 2012 was 2,064,739 people; in July, 2013 it was 2,064,725. So, yes, the population had declined that year by FOURTEEN people.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?la

July. 2014 total Cleveland employment was 1,006,411 the highest number since November, 2008

Based on trends in Cleveland, it's fair to say that both the population loss and the recession are pretty much over. I don't know what future numbers will be, but the sickening losses of prior years will probably not recur.
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 108):

Massey already posted the info on population.

Eh, navigate BLS yourself. I'm not making anything up. The Cleveland area has added 52,000 jobs between July 2009 and July 2014. Akron has added another 12,000 in the same period. Not quite sure why you think this is a lie.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 87):
There is absolutely nothing to back that up. I don't think BA has even visited MSY? Its just someone wanting BA to go there, but not based on anything.

  

BA served MSY for a number of years, routing LHR-MSY-MEX. I last flew the route in May 1984 on a L-1011-500.

I think it ceased in 1986 when MEX went non -stop, but happy to be corrected.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
lakeeffect
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 110):
Eh, navigate BLS yourself. I'm not making anything up. The Cleveland area has added 52,000 jobs between July 2009 and July 2014. Akron has added another 12,000 in the same period. Not quite sure why you think this is a lie.

And to further this, the shift in population is towards those with higher educations. So while population may be stagnant or barely growing as a whole, Cleveland is losing those uneducated folks and replacing them with people who hold degrees. The trend has been incredible the past few years. With educated international migration up in Cleveland, it will fuel more demand for international air travel.

http://www.csuohio.edu/news/csu-rese...-explores-cleveland’s-brain-gain
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:59 pm

Cleveland is doing a lot to promote tourism, too. I saw this promotional video for the city just the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY

  
 
by738
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 111):

BA served MSY for a number of years, routing LHR-MSY-MEX. I last flew the route in May 1984 on a L-1011-500.

Speaking of shaking heads    Were you on a private jet on that particular routing on your own.... all the other pax were flying then from LGW.
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 114):
Were you on a private jet on that particular routing on your own.... all the other pax were flying then from LGW.

LOL, talk about Heathrowcentricity on the brain..!

You are correct, of course.   

Rgds
Flying around India
 
MSYtristar
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 111):
BA served MSY for a number of years, routing LHR-MSY-MEX. I last flew the route in May 1984 on a L-1011-500.

EA used to do the ground handling for that flight because they still had widebody service equipment based here during that time. One of my old coworkers used to be the gate agent. From what I remember being told, the MEX-bound passengers had to deplane and were put in a drab sounding holding room until they were cleared to board again.
 
finnishway
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:16 pm

Why not LHR-SAT or LHR-OKC?
 
joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 113):
Cleveland is doing a lot to promote tourism, too. I saw this promotional video for the city just the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY



Or you could post these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDTpvPBVhg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-aLUHxP05s

Or go back to Youtube and find some more silly ones, me too with positive ones
 
joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 109):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 98):I just showed you links that it losing people and you don't have anything to back up your statements.http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/...f/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmkThe Cleveland MSA (Cuyahoga,Geauga, Lake, Lorain, and Medina Counties) population in July, 2012 was 2,064,739 people; in July, 2013 it was 2,064,725. So, yes, the population had declined that year by FOURTEEN people.http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?laJuly. 2014 total Cleveland employment was 1,006,411 the highest number since November, 2008Based on trends in Cleveland, it's fair to say that both the population loss and the recession are pretty much over. I don't know what future numbers will be, but the sickening losses of prior

Haven't seen it here or I'm too lazy to look back but a funny thing I've noticed a.netters do:

Unlike Dallas/Ft. Worth or Baltimore/Washington, if they're trying to dispel possibility of something like transatlantic service for CLE, Akron/Canton region becomes separate for population count, but if they're trying to dispel further domestic service, the region becomes one cause there's 2 airports...lol
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:43 pm

The Wall Street Journal posted the discussed article on yahoo so now everyone can view without a subscription

http://news.yahoo.com/just-time-lebr...html;_ylt=AwrBEiG.GQJU_ikAc6bQtDMD

All is great news for the city, but the business demand or premium demand must be better than it was for continental to survive. They couldn't even make a 757 work, a 787 by BA is gonna have alot more premium seats to fill. There has to be people willing to buy premium seats and last minute business demand to make it worth it, maybe the economy has improved enough?

[Edited 2014-08-30 11:51:38]
 
Fiesta13
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 76):
Lets face it, Cleveland has been hit hard by the recession and job losses. The Cleveland area still doesnt have positive population growth. Cleveland also gets very few international immigrants (especially given its size and as does STL for that matter).

CLE WAS hit hard, but it's on a roll right now. There's a lot going on in CLE. There's a few thousand hotel rooms being built (and that were being built before the RNC decided to go there in '16); young professionals are moving downtown in droves as jobs have picked up, and the city has converted old stores and warehouses into higher-end condo's and apartments.

And perhaps doesn't get many international immigrants, it has very strong German, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican populations in the metro area. In fact, CO actually studied the feesability of a CLE-TLV a long while back. So CLE isn't exactly dying. It's really doing quite wll right now.
 
SelseyBill
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 92):
Where is BA expecting to get all the slots for these flights?

Interesting question, but essentially BA have massive scope for re-investing more of their short-haul slots to long haul flying, The way I understand things, BA make their real profits from long-haul flying, but barely break-even on short haul European. The key to 'finding' more slots therefore is to convert short haul to long haul, and there appears to be plenty of options available to do this.

1. Switch recently commenced LHR-Rotterdam/ Bergen/ Stavanger sectors to LCY flying = 42 total departure slots per week

2. Both MXP and LIN are served from LHR, as are CDG and ORY. BA could focus on serving one airport each in Paris and Milan, maybe releasing 30-40 departure slots per week.

3. BA might also consider saving slots on some European sectors; LHR-MAD for example has 13 daily IB/BA flights, and EDI and MAN use plenty of slots with eveidently dubious profitability.

4. More A380 flying may release some slots for more destinations

5. LBA services use 20 departure slots per week, don't know how successful this sector is


I'm not a BA insider, so the above is pure speculation on my part; but there does seem to be plenty of scope for converting short-haul into long-haul when the 787's start to arrive en-masse..
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 113):

Meh. Why even post this? It's a waste of time for everyone here.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 120):

Actually "they" made LGW work in one form or another for quite a while, then LHR happened briefly, then the merger happened. I don't know if past performance is indicative of future results but I don't think it would be that radical if BA decided on CLE. It's not that small of a market.
 
joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:53 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 120):
All is great news for the city, but the business demand or premium demand must be better than it was for continental to survive. They couldn't even make a 757 work

Here we go again with the couldn't make it work for 10 years stuff...
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:33 pm

My bet is on STL and/or PDX. The only airports from all that were named (barring CLT) that handle well above 10 million passengers a year.

Slight edge to STL, since It has a larger metro area, and is also relatively isolated compared to the competition. (closest city with Europe service being ORD, a close to 5 hour drive). Also PDX already has service to AMS.

CLT already has BA (of sorts, what with the JV with AA/US) !

Can't see CLE, CMH, IND or CVG get service before DTW (CSA of 5.3 million) gets it back. Then again, AUS came out of left field as far as I'm concerned.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-08-31 09:07:51]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 123):
Meh. Why even post this? It's a waste of time for everyone here.

Yes! One of the things I can always count on a.net for...a complete lack of sense of humor.
 
KD5MDK
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:57 pm

It might be worth noting that the AUS 788 is expected to become available next summer as it is upgauged to a 772.
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting kd5mdk (Reply 127):
It might be worth noting that the AUS 788 is expected to become available next summer as it is upgauged to a 772.

Let me also say this-BA's Y class on the 787 is notoriously bad. Seat Guru reviwers give them a stiff one routinely.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 128):
Let me also say this-BA's Y class on the 787 is notoriously bad. Seat Guru reviwers give them a stiff one routinely.

  

Notoriously..? Perhaps only from vociferous BA Executive Club members who always expect Club for Traveller money. A quick comparison shows BA's offering is very much in line, perhaps even fractionally better, than their competitors also flying the Dreamliner.

Dreamliner configs:


British Airways:
World Traveller, 31", 17.5"

Air Canada
Economy, 31", 17.3"

Qatar
Economy, 31", 17.2"

United
Economy, 32", 17.3"

Rgds
Flying around India
 
CplKlinger
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 125):

My bet is on STL and/or PDX. The only airports from all that were named (barring CLT) that handle well above 10 million passengers a year.

Slight edge to STL, since It has a larger metro area, and is also relatively isolated compared to the competition.

You mention all this, but then say that IND has no dog in the fight? We're also 5-ish hours from ORD and have a larger MSA than STL. In the Midwest, STL is the 10th largest MSA while IND is the 6th (crazily enough, CVG is the 2nd largest). I think this will come down to more than just who has more people. Demand can be driven by much more.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:47 am

I would think the options for cutting short haul flights to Europe would be limited due the need for connections
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:44 am

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 130):
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 125):

My bet is on STL and/or PDX. The only airports from all that were named (barring CLT) that handle well above 10 million passengers a year.

Slight edge to STL, since It has a larger metro area, and is also relatively isolated compared to the competition.

You mention all this, but then say that IND has no dog in the fight? We're also 5-ish hours from ORD and have a larger MSA than STL. In the Midwest, STL is the 10th largest MSA while IND is the 6th (crazily enough, CVG is the 2nd largest). I think this will come down to more than just who has more people. Demand can be driven by much more.

Huh? Where are you getting your data? The following MSA ranks in the US (airports served):

STL - 19 - - - - 2.8M
PIT - 22 - - - - 2.36M
CVG - 28 - - - - 2.14M
CLE - 29 - - - - 2.06M (If you include Akron and Youngstown it jums to 4.4M)
CMH - 32 - - - - 1.97M
IND - 33 - - - - - 1.95M
AUS - 35 - - - - 1.88M (We all know what happened there)
BNA - 36 - - - - 1.76M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

Now I will agree with your comment that demand is driven by much more than population such as economic and business climate. It will be a combination of factors. But if this comes to pass, it will be good news for the city or cities involved..
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 110):
Eh, navigate BLS yourself. I'm not making anything up.

You need to learn how to present an argument. If you make a statement, it is YOUR job to back it up.

BTW, I never accused you of lying. I accused you of not backing up what you say.

Quoting joeman (Reply 119):
Unlike Dallas/Ft. Worth or Baltimore/Washington, if they're trying to dispel possibility of something like transatlantic service for CLE, Akron/Canton region becomes separate for population count, but if they're trying to dispel further domestic service, the region becomes one cause there's 2 airports...lol

It doesn't matter. CAK adds very little in the way of international O&D to CLE. Put together, CLE and CAK have roughly 1/6 the international O&D of DFW and far less of the Washington DC area.

Ill just say it. Cleveland isn't an international city. It might have been at one time and it may become one in the future. But for now, it isn't.

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 121):
CLE WAS hit hard, but it's on a roll right now. There's a lot going on in CLE.

I hope you're right. I don't wish poorly for Cleveland at all. I don't even question whether CLE could support a daily flight across the Atlantic on a 757.

But Im not making any bets on Cleveland until we see those results. Right now, CLE still doesn't have a positive population count from the past years. Lets start with achieving that goal and we'll go from there.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 109):
The Cleveland MSA (Cuyahoga,Geauga, Lake, Lorain, and Medina Counties) population in July, 2012 was 2,064,739 people; in July, 2013 it was 2,064,725. So, yes, the population had declined that year by FOURTEEN people.

From 2010, the number is much higher than 14.

It doesn't matter. CLE joins only Detroit as metro areas with negative population growth. Again, once Cleveland reverses the trend, Ill give credit where credit is due.

To the topic, of the cities mentioned, the only one that really cries out for some sort of transatlantic service is STL. CLE, IND, and CMH could handle a 757, but I don't know how much of a priority it will be unless there is money on the table.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 129):
A quick comparison shows BA's offering is very much in line, perhaps even fractionally better, than their competitors also flying the Dreamliner.

  

And, if Seatguru is correct, it's also right in line with other BA aircraft. All longhaul 763, 744, 772 and 388 are at 31 inch pitch and either 17 or 17.5 inch width.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 130):
We're also 5-ish hours from ORD and have a larger MSA than STL. In the Midwest, STL is the 10th largest MSA while IND is the 6th (crazily enough, CVG is the 2nd largest).

As far as isolation from other TATL service, IND is much different from some others on this list, as it's an easy less than 2 hour drive to CVG, about 4 hours to DTW (assuming you don't confine yourself to interstates) and well less than 5 hours to ORD.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 132):
(If you include Akron and Youngstown it jums to 4.4M)

I realize that Cleveland boosters love to include Youngstown in their counts, but most of Youngstown is closer to PIT than to CLE, and it's a much easier (mostly rural) drive. Doing things like including Toledo and Youngstown to boost Cleveland's numbers is equivalent to BNA including Chattanooga and Birmingham.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 133):
It doesn't matter. CLE joins only Detroit as metro areas with negative population growth.

And yet, DTW supports all sorts of TATL service. Clearly, population growth or shrinkage isn't dispositive.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PHX787
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 129):
Dreamliner configs:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 134):
And, if Seatguru is correct, it's also right in line with other BA aircraft. All longhaul 763, 744, 772 and 388 are at 31 inch pitch and either 17 or 17.5 inch width.

I'm talking about the frequent complains I've read on seatguru....
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 134):
And yet, DTW supports all sorts of TATL service. Clearly, population growth or shrinkage isn't dispositive.

DTW is the worldwide center of the auto industry and it has a large immigrant population. CLE doesn't have those things.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
cle757
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:13 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 136):
DTW is the worldwide center of the auto industry and it has a large immigrant population. CLE doesn't have those things.

CLE is the worldwide center of the health care industry(also has a large automotive presence) and does have a large immigrant population!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting cle757 (Reply 137):
CLE is the worldwide center of the health care industry(also has a large automotive presence) and does have a large immigrant population!

No, CLE doesn't have a large immigrant population and no CLE isn't the worldwide center of the healthcare industry. CLE does have some world class health care hospitals and companies, but it is no where near what Houston is for oil, San Jose is for tech, or Detroit is for auto.

For reference on CLE's immigrant pull, check the link below and supplemental table two. It ranks 43rd (sandwiched between Jacksonville and Fresno) in the US in immigrants incoming on a yearly basis.

http://www.dhs.gov/yearbook-immigrat...cs-2013-lawful-permanent-residents



[Edited 2014-09-01 09:21:21]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
masseybrown
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 134):
it's an easy less than 2 hour drive to CVG, about 4 hours to DTW (assuming you don't confine yourself to interstates) and well less than 5 hours to ORD.

I''m always amazed when posters say "it's only X hours' drive" to some alternative airport. I HATE driving, but that may be a result of Washington traffic. It's "only" two hours to Philadelphia from here, but that's two hours of hell on wheels. I think 90 minutes is the far edge of acceptability.
 
Indy
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 134):
As far as isolation from other TATL service, IND is much different from some others on this list, as it's an easy less than 2 hour drive to CVG, about 4 hours to DTW (assuming you don't confine yourself to interstates) and well less than 5 hours to ORD.

The point behind the nonstop is not wasting the time of a drive or connection. DTW is too far of a drive. If people can drive to CVG then people from CVG could equally drive to IND. And ORD is a customer service joke. Nothing says wasting time like flying in to ORD from an international destination. You may very well find people who used to arrive in ORD wanting to make the drive to IND just to avoid the international arrivals disaster at ORD. It would actually be a really good marketing strategy for any international flight out of IND. Save time and stress by returning from Europe to IND instead of ORD. While IND likely wouldn't be able to poach passengers from the City of Chicago itself, or areas west and north, it would likely be able to get passengers from NW Indiana and maybe the far south side of Chicago. Certainly NW Indiana where the drive down I-65 is an easy one.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 133):

Who are you to tell me how to present an argument? I believe you are upset because you believe:

1. The Cleveland metro is losing jobs
2. The Cleveland metro is losing population quickly

Facts are presented proving this wrong. Really not my issue anymore. Sorry if this is upsetting to you.
 
cle757
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:51 pm

Hmm the Cleveland Clinic is in the top three for alot of things

http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
777STL
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 133):
To the topic, of the cities mentioned, the only one that really cries out for some sort of transatlantic service is STL.

This, I agree with. PDX already has transatlantic service and I believe SLC does as well. MSY is rumored to be at the top of the list of the most likely candidates, so that leaves STL as the most likely candidate otherwise. The fact that it had a loyal TWA customer base that then transferred over to AA doesn't hurt either.

People tend to think STL is some backwater, dilapidated hulk of a city but it does have an impressive array of big business operating there for a city of its size.

Fortune 500 companies HQ'd in STL:

RGA
Centene
Emerson
Express Scripts
Monsanto
Peabody Energy
Ameren
Graybar
Edward Jones

Smaller, private companies HQ'd in STL:

Enterprise Holdings(Enterprise Rent-a-Car)
Worldwide Technologies

Companies with large foortprints in STL, but HQ'd somewhere else:

Inbev(HQ in Belgium)
Boeing(Boeing Defense HQ'd in STL, overall company HQ'd in Chicago)
Wells Fargo(through acquisition of AG Edwards)
AT&T

Not to mention a huge medical research industry burgeoning around the Washington University Med School/Barnes Hospital/CORTEX area in the central west end area of the city.
PHX based
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 135):
I'm talking about the frequent complains I've read on seatguru....

I think the issue is that folks were expecting the new airplane to offer something better than the old airplanes. Instead, at least as far as pitch and width, it fell right in line.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 139):
I''m always amazed when posters say "it's only X hours' drive" to some alternative airport. I HATE driving, but that may be a result of Washington traffic. It's "only" two hours to Philadelphia from here, but that's two hours of hell on wheels. I think 90 minutes is the far edge of acceptability.

When talking about airports with unique service, it seems to me that the number is somewhat higher than that. I've been spending a lot of time in CLL lately and, more often than not, make the ~2 hour drive to IAH, HOU or AUS rather than connecting into CLL, as the total travel time is lower. It's not a perfect analogy to TATL service, of course, but I think it's probably a better analogy than WAS and PHL.

Quoting Indy (Reply 140):
The point behind the nonstop is not wasting the time of a drive or connection. DTW is too far of a drive. If people can drive to CVG then people from CVG could equally drive to IND.

Generally, I agree with you. I do think there's probably some amount of IND-CDG traffic that is driving to CVG rather than connecting somewhere now, but those connecting beyond CDG to cities served from the States are probably better served flying from IND and connecting in the States. Still, folks doing CVG-CDG might find IND-LHR-CDG more attractive than dealing with the drive to CVG, as it would likely be pretty similar if not a bit faster time-wise to fly TATL from IND.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 143):
People tend to think STL is some backwater, dilapidated hulk of a city but it does have an impressive array of big business operating there for a city of its size.

It's not a backwater, but quite a few of the cities on your list (Ameren, Express Scripts, Edward Jones) are pretty US-centric.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 142):
Hmm the Cleveland Clinic is in the top three for alot of things

Okay, but as far as a segment that employs people and generates wealth and travel demand, it's relatively smaller than some of the other cities we are discussing here. For instance, this recent Plain-Dealer Op-Ed puts healthcare employment in metro Cleveland at 177,000. The numbers vary a bit, but the number tossed around for healthcare employment in Nashville is almost always higher than that; the Chamber of Commerce number is 200,000 jobs.

[Edited 2014-09-01 13:50:33]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting cle757 (Reply 142):
Hmm the Cleveland Clinic is in the top three for alot of things

http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings





Which is one great hospital.....one.

Houston, New York, Baltimore, Boston, etc all have much, much more healthcare draw and pull than Cleveland, just to name a few of the biggies.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
PITrules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:07 pm

I'm not sure how large a part education and foreign students are when it comes to attracting int'l air service, but it seems to be mentioned a lot when discussing Boston. So here are the numbers of foreign students (2008-2012) in the cities competing for new AA/BA LHR service:

PIT 13,326
DTW 9,215
CMH 9,793
STL 8,856
CVG 6,137
CLE 5,477
PDX 4,930
IND 3,634
BNA 3,320
MSY 3,114

Source:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/in...graphy-of-foreign-students#/M10420
FLYi
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 144):

Total Health and Education jobs using BLS numbers as of July 2014:

Cleveland -- 195,100
Nashville -- 126,500
Akron/Canton -- 84,600

It's not even close. There are many more Eds and Meds jobs in NE Ohio. It's also a higher percentage of the total economy as well.

Also the idea floated by Sicilian Flyer that NE Ohio is a second-tier Med and Eds area isn't true.

As percentage of total Eds and Meds jobs in a region Cleveland is on par with Baltimore and New York, well ahead of Houston and slightly behind Boston.

It's just not seen that way because Cleveland is still a large manufacturing center and for whatever reason Americans think manufacturing and medical can't go hand in hand. This doesn't seem to be an issue with Europeans. Whatever.

[Edited 2014-09-01 15:37:06]
 
Planeflyer
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting Cubsrule

It's enabling direct flights which is significant.
 
777STL
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 144):
It's not a backwater, but quite a few of the cities on your list (Ameren, Express Scripts, Edward Jones) are pretty US-centric.

And a company like Wellpoint, which is just about IND's only claim to fame, isn't?

People also talk about these cars plants in the middle of nowhere Ohio as if they're filling up a 747 to NRT every day, but that's hardly the case. I don't think they realize how bottom heavy these plants are in terms of blue collar labor and such. There are very few people that would have any reason to be traveling back and forth across the ponds at such a facility.
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