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LAXdude1023
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 141):
Who are you to tell me how to present an argument? I believe you are upset because you believe:

1. The Cleveland metro is losing jobs
2. The Cleveland metro is losing population quickly

I never once said that Cleveland was losing jobs.

Cleveland is losing people. That is a fact. The bleeding seems to be slowing down but it hasn't been stopped. Its not even arguable. I presented you with a link that shows it is losing people. End of story.

Im telling you how to present an argument because you don't back up anything you say with documentation. Its not like quoting international O&D (which can't really be presented with a link), the things your arguing could be presented with a link.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 142):

Hmm the Cleveland Clinic is in the top three for alot of things

One great hospital does not make Cleveland the worldwide center of the healthcare industry. Cleveland is not the worldwide center of the healthcare industry.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 147):
As percentage of total Eds and Meds jobs in a region Cleveland is on par with Baltimore and New York, well ahead of Houston and slightly behind Boston.

It's just not seen that way because Cleveland is still a large manufacturing center and for whatever reason Americans think manufacturing and medical can't go hand in hand. This doesn't seem to be an issue with Europeans. Whatever.

Percentages mean nothing, its the total jobs that count. Cleveland is no slouch when it comes to total number of healthcare jobs, but cle757 mentioned that Cleveland was the worldwide center of the healthcare industry which it certainly is not.

Looking at the total number of healthcare job gains most recently, Cleveland does quite well. It ranks behind Charlotte, Riverside, Philadelphia, Salt Lake City, Miami, and San Francisco, but still pretty high on the list of healthcare job gains.
This does NOT however translate to international O&D which is ultimately what this thread is about. Having world class hospitals contributes very little to international O&D. That goes for any city.

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/res...h/healthcare%20monitor%20final.pdf

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 147):
Also the idea floated by Sicilian Flyer that NE Ohio is a second-tier Med and Eds area isn't true.

He never said that.
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 147):
As percentage of total Eds and Meds jobs in a region Cleveland is on par with Baltimore and New York, well ahead of Houston and slightly behind Boston

This is just completely false. And percentage of jobs? What good is that? Houston and Boston are miles ahead of Cleveland in the medical-healthcare world. (this does not mean CLeveland is bad BTW. some seem to have issues reading these things)

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 150):
Also the idea floated by Sicilian Flyer that NE Ohio is a second-tier Med and Eds area isn't true.
He never said that.

Indeed I did not. I work in the industry and was just in Cleveland Thursday. As noted before Cleveland CLinic is certainly a great facility, but New York, Houston, Baltimore, Boston, San Fran, and several others surpass Cleveland in medical jobs, research, medical students, and hospitals, just to name a few.

The Texas Medical Center in Houston, is bigger than downtown Pittsburgh and growing closer to the size of downtown Cleveland for example. The money going into research in Boston outstrips Cleveland by millions of dollars.

The point was: The notion that Cleveland is the centre of the US healthcare industry is absurd. That does not mean the Cleveland Clinic is not good or Cleveland is somehow Toledo. You need to look at things from a realistic perspective.
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fxramper
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:26 am

IND wins the flight on a 787 and make money on cargo.   
 
joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:54 am

Think I'll wait till BA itself actually comes up with a "shortlist", unlike they did with the sudden AUS service, rather than rely on a rumor with a bunch of cities and then a newspaper publication with a bunch of other cities as told by an airport official whose fan dancing for BA rather than continuing the usual mine's bigger and better than yours rants like in so many forums...
 
CplKlinger
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:21 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 149):
And a company like Wellpoint, which is just about IND's only claim to fame, isn't?

Only claim to fame? Please, I know that folks like to sell IND short, but that's ridiculous. Let's review my list again...

Eli Lilly
Cummins Engine
Cook Pharmica
Honda
Toyota
Subaru NA
Rolls Royce Engine Plant
Dow AgroScience
WellPoint

Add to that 3 universities in town (IUPUI, Butler, U Indy), two major colleges an hour out of town (IU Bloomington and Purdue), three major races (Brickyard 400, Indy 500, Moto GP, which I grant may not be international destinations), and more conventions than you can shake a stick at (this link here --> https://www.icclos.com/upcoming-events.aspx shows all of the conventions, from 500-80,000 in attendance). We're even making overtures to lure Comic Con away from San Diego because they're complaining about not enough space. The old slogan is true, there is more than corn in Indiana.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 152):
IND wins the flight on a 787 and make money on cargo.   

This, this and this. We already get service twice a week from CargoLux, and we've got the second largest FedEx hub in the world. There's money to be made in that hold.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 147):
Total Health and Education jobs using BLS numbers as of July 2014:

I'm not a huge fan of the BLS numbers, as the categories are somewhat artificial, particularly with respect to air travel demand. To take a Nashville example, the jobs at Nissan's plants in Smyrna are "manufacturing" jobs. As 777stl points out, they don't come with a heck of a lot of demand for overseas travel (though there's some, perhaps more than he thinks). The jobs at Nissan's North American headquarters in Franklin are also "manufacturing" jobs. They generate much more air travel demand (per job). But BLS counts them the same.

Similarly but relatedly, in cities that have a lot of healthcare IT jobs (Nashville is in this category, not sure about Cleveland), it's not clear whether those jobs fall into the BLS bucket of "Education and Health Services" or "Information." That's why I went to the numbers from the cheerleaders in each city.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 149):
And a company like Wellpoint, which is just about IND's only claim to fame, isn't?

Eli Lilly?
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LambertMan
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:52 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 143):
This, I agree with. PDX already has transatlantic service and I believe SLC does as well. MSY is rumored to be at the top of the list of the most likely candidates, so that leaves STL as the most likely candidate otherwise. The fact that it had a loyal TWA customer base that then transferred over to AA doesn't hurt either.

Pardon me for being crass, but why does everyone insist on Salt Lake City as a candidate (no, I'm not asking for an explanation, its rhetorical)?! Even before AMS, that wasn't happening. If anything, Minneapolis and Detroit are far more logical candidates for DL strongholds to get BA service.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 143):
People tend to think STL is some backwater, dilapidated hulk of a city but it does have an impressive array of big business operating there for a city of its size.

Fortune 500 companies HQ'd in STL:

RGA
Centene
Emerson
Express Scripts
Monsanto
Peabody Energy
Ameren
Graybar
Edward Jones

Amazing to think that included May Company, Purina, General Dynamics, and McDonnell Douglass at one point. Wow. Though I suppose many of these weren't around when those were, though.

This all boils down to a bunch of "tweener" markets fighting for one, maybe two flights. Supply and demand, in this instance, will be reconciled and whoever offers the best package of incentives will get the flight. I don't think any of these markets, STL included, can support the flight on its own (though I do believe its closest).

One thing that I will offer: STL tried to get $6 million in corporate revenue guarantees (sounds low doesn't it?), but couldn't get them. I think that says something about who may be next and I'm guessing its Nashville or New Orleans.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 156):
One thing that I will offer: STL tried to get $6 million in corporate revenue guarantees (sounds low doesn't it?), but couldn't get them. I think that says something about who may be next and I'm guessing its Nashville or New Orleans.

At least in the circles I run in (which don't overlap much with some of the bigger industries here like healthcare), I don't hear a lot of appetite in Nashville for a big incentive package to land a TATL flight. So many of our international business ties are to Asia rather than to Europe that there are large swaths of people who might use an LHR flight for vacation but aren't all that likely to use it for work.

When I compare the incentives that would be required for a TATL flight with the incentives that might get 3 or 4 domestic holes filled in (say a year-round legacy to SEA, SFO and MKE), the domestic flights seem like a much better deal.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 157):
When I compare the incentives that would be required for a TATL flight with the incentives that might get 3 or 4 domestic holes filled in (say a year-round legacy to SEA, SFO and MKE), the domestic flights seem like a much better deal.

A refreshing and excellent take as opposed to the same ole rhetoric concerning all the utopias deserving of BA service.
 
777STL
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 154):
Only claim to fame? Please, I know that folks like to sell IND short, but that's ridiculous. Let's review my list again...

Eli Lilly
Cummins Engine
Cook Pharmica
Honda
Toyota
Subaru NA
Rolls Royce Engine Plant
Dow AgroScience
WellPoint

And my question to you is, is that actually going to generate international traffic? A bunch of blue collar assembly line workers at a Honda/Subaru/Toyota plant aren't going to be making regular trips to Japan, sorry. You can rattle off all the companies you want to, but you're taking it out of context at the same time.

Anyone have the PDEW numbers IND-Japan? I'm genuinely curious....

(At any rate, we're talking BA here, so I'm not sure how those guys even fall into the scope of this conversation....)

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 156):
Pardon me for being crass, but why does everyone insist on Salt Lake City as a candidate (no, I'm not asking for an explanation, its rhetorical)?! Even before AMS, that wasn't happening. If anything, Minneapolis and Detroit are far more logical candidates for DL strongholds to get BA service.

That was my point, it's well served for what it is and thus likely wouldn't be in serious competition for a TA flight.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 154):
Add to that 3 universities in town (IUPUI, Butler, U Indy), two major colleges an hour out of town (IU Bloomington and Purdue), three major races (Brickyard 400, Indy 500, Moto GP, which I grant may not be international destinations), and more conventions than you can shake a stick at (this link here --> https://www.icclos.com/upcoming-events.aspx shows all of the conventions, from 500-80,000 in attendance).

As if Indiana is the only state that has a convention center or a large state university.

Quoting joeman (Reply 158):
A refreshing and excellent take as opposed to the same ole rhetoric concerning all the utopias deserving of BA service.

Who knew Indiana was the center of the universe, right? They don't call it flyover country for no reason, folks.
PHX based
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 159):
A bunch of blue collar assembly line workers at a Honda/Subaru/Toyota plant aren't going to be making regular trips to Japan, sorry.

I imagine that Toyota Material Handling's US headquarters (which, admittedly, happens to be co-located with a plant) generates a fair amount of demand over both oceans, though likely more to Japan.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CplKlinger
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 159):
And my question to you is, is that actually going to generate international traffic? A bunch of blue collar assembly line workers at a Honda/Subaru/Toyota plant aren't going to be making regular trips to Japan, sorry. You can rattle off all the companies you want to, but you're taking it out of context at the same time.

Maybe not the blue collar folks, but I do recall it being mentioned up thread that IND has the highest amount of traffic heading to LHR without having direct service. So if we're sending a lot of folks to LHR, why not direct on BA? Upthread it mentioned an average of 450 pax/day heading overseas.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 159):
Who knew Indiana was the center of the universe, right? They don't call it flyover country for no reason, folks.

And what makes STL that much better? I can't think of any compelling reason that takes it out of the 'flyover country' group either....
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 156):

Pardon me for being crass, but why does everyone insist on Salt Lake City as a candidate (no, I'm not asking for an explanation, its rhetorical)?! Even before AMS, that wasn't happening. If anything, Minneapolis and Detroit are far more logical candidates for DL strongholds to get BA service.

Well BA actually visited SLC and went to a chamber of commerce meeting in Salt Lake. Clearly ba was a strong candidate. It will have two flights to Europe next summer 330 to cdg and 767 to ams, so i do think some other cities might be better opportunities now.

Msy is only considered likely because of one article written by someone who wants it. It could be next, but that article says nothing its an online posting. I think AUS success has gotten these airport managers too excited, its a longshot for everyone. Whoever gets it is gonna need a solid commitment from the business community and/or major dollar commitments by the city. Which is why i think cmh stopped in london they know how competitive its gonna be they wanna do everything to pitch the best package and to stay on the list.
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:58 am

Something else I wanted to point out. If STL was still an AA Hub I'd think that would be a no brainer for BA. Some local O&D plus connecting feed via STL. Easy way to avoid the congestion at ORD and DFW. Now? AA's STL hub is gone, and the feed no longer exists. STL is going to have to try a lot harder now because they lost one of their biggest arguments for this type of service.
In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
 
B4REAL
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting flyCMH (Reply 3):
As much as I would love to see an LHR-bound 787 out of CMH, I'd like to see at least a CMH-SFO route first.

Late to reply, but I'm with you. I'd love to see CMH-SFO come, on DL   (I realize it won't happen).
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DeltaRules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:17 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 164):
Late to reply, but I'm with you. I'd love to see CMH-SFO come, on DL (I realize it won't happen).

If DL can do RDU-LAS...

...yeah, I know, it'd be UA if anybody did it.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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atypical
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:37 am

IND is running nearly a million more enplanements a year than CVG and Delta has kept running the CVG-CDG flight. I would think after the enormous cuts at CVG this flight is hanging on by good O&D, someone may have numbers on this one way or another. I think there is little vacation traveling to IND outside of the 500. It would be a good area to feed a foreign hub for connections that would normally transfer inside the US. It would take a stop out of the chain for mid size cities not easily served direct from the US like Genoa, Marseille, Salzburg, Porto, Hannover, etc. And make larger ones more accessible with greater frequencies from London. One obvious consideration with IND service is the huge RR operation and what, if any, sustained business traffic that captures. The new CFM assembly plant in Lafayette will undoubtedly bring in some French from Snecma but that could be anything from a few people a year to something substantial. I am not saying Indy is the best choice by any means but there are some intriguing aspects particularly when looking at CVG-CDG just down the road.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:06 am

How much do facilities play in decisions? The IND terminal has two international arrivals gates built in. The departure and arrival process should be relatively simple. Old IND was terrible. International arrivals was at a building across the airfield and there were no jet bridges. Also, IND would have a distinct advantage over the other candidates due to cargo. Indy is big when it comes to air cargo. In the last few years there was also a new belly cargo facility built relatively close to the international gates. This will also streamline cargo handling on a London flight.

But then again how much of a deterrent will Delta be to any new service such as IND-LHR? BA announces IND-LHR and then DL turns around and announces IND-AMS. BA pulls IND-LHR and then DL finds a reason to pull IND-AMS. Unless of course there are contracts involved in which case that couldn't happen.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
DeltaRules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:03 pm

CMH has an international gate (C46) with direct access to the FIS area. Not an expert, but I'd imagine there'd be some way to block off C47 and funnel everyone to customs as well, if needed.

VV701 posted in the previous thread information about a BA-operated truck cargo service from CMH to JFK to connect onward to their flights. I wonder how that might factor into a BA 787 vs AA 757 decision if it comes down to it.
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masseybrown
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:33 pm

According to a VS press release today, they will be entering DTW-LHR, which takes one of the cities discussed out of the sweepstakes.

http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/us/en.../network-changes/_jcr_content.html
 
aa1818
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:37 pm

I wonder if BA will 'man-up' and launch some new routes given that VS have trained their guns on the US-UK market.

AA1818
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lhcvg
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:04 pm

One thing worth mentioning again is that IND and CMH *could* be done on an AA 757 should they so choose. Because of the TATL JV it would be the same

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 168):

I doubt that ALONE would warrant dedicating a 787 since you could no doubt carry some fraction in the 757 belly as cargo, and the rest could still go via truck. But it DOES help the case for CMH-LHR service (though I don't have any idea about similar cargo patterns between IND/BNA/STL and LHR).

I still think the point made in one the linked articles about the 757 being able to do IND/CMH/CLE is important though. It really does segment this discussion, because I think BNA and STL run into the problem of opportunity cost -- where else might a 787 be useful/profitable? OTOH, an AA 757 (assuming availability to do the LHR-CMH-LHR turn as part of it's W TATL routing) wouldn't be sacrificing as much from another route since those don't tend to run AS premium routes as widebodies do.

All that being said, there's also no reason we couldn't see something like DL's PIT-CDG (less than daily 757), seasonal-only service, or even a 787 in summer/757 in slow season arrangement.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 162):
Msy is only considered likely because of one article written by someone who wants it. It could be next, but that article says nothing its an online posting.


That's not true. It's "considered likely" because it's constantly talked about in local tourism publications in this area and more than one time it was mentioned that officials were negotiating with the airline. So I would say MSY has just as good of a chance as some other cities which are trying to lure the airline, and probably better than most based on traffic figures. Just because BA doesn't come to town doesn't mean people from Louisiana haven't visited BA. The article you mention, which contained a lot of hard data supporting the route, was just the latest piece. I hope the route happens, and I suspect it will, but it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't.
 
Fiesta13
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:44 pm

I've seen list of Fortune 500's listed in other cities, but not CLE, so here goes. And if this is redudant, sorry ahead of time. And this does include the Akron area, and make no mistake, a lot of people from Akron-Canton do use CLE.

-Goodyear
-Parker-Hannifin
-Lubrizol
-Progressive Insurance
-Eaton Corporation
-First Energy
-TravelCenters of America
-Sherwin-Williams
-Key Corp.
-Cliffs Natural Resources.

As for healthcare:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 145):
Which is one great hospital.....one.

Actually, there are two large, first-rate health care institutions in CLE: The Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals System, which includes the world-renowned and ranked Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital. One reason a Med Mart and new convention center was built in CLE was the fact that these two first-class facilities exist in the Cleveland area.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 169):
According to a VS press release today, they will be entering DTW-LHR, which takes one of the cities discussed out of the sweepstakes.

Although I agree with you that the risk for BA to now start DTW is much higher with the entrance of VS. VS only takes care of the O&D pax in LON and DTW as well as any transfer passengers in DTW via DL codeshare. Theoretically, VS is targeting XXX-DTW-LON traffic flows, or DTW-LON traffic flows.

BA on the other hand has a network beyond LON which it can leverage which means, it's also targeting the local O&D traffic flows on LHR-DTW, but could also offer DTW-LHR-XXX, which is something that VS cannot offer. Therefore, there is additional market potential for BA to compete.

However, I don't believe that DTW produces enough O&D traffic to support 3 airlines. However, VS hasn't started the route yet, so they are not an entrenched carrier, BA could also step in and make life difficult for DL and VS. The problem in this case is that the demand to travel to/from LON is much higher than the demand to travel to/from DTW, meaning that more traffic flows are likely to connect in DTW on VS than are likely to connect in LHR on BA.
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Indy
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 171):
But it DOES help the case for CMH-LHR service (though I don't have any idea about similar cargo patterns between IND/BNA/STL and LHR).

Cargo out of IND is huge. There are already two 744's (I believe it is 2 and not 3) that go weekly to Luxembourg. And LH was going to start once a week cargo service to FRA. For now that plan has been scrapped. But it just goes to show the volume of cargo that goes between IND and Europe. That is in addition to the FX cargo. Filling the belly of a 788 may be a relatively simple task for Indy.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 173):
Actually, there are two large, first-rate health care institutions in CLE: The Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals System, which includes the world-renowned and ranked Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital. One reason a Med Mart and new convention center was built in CLE was the fact that these two first-class facilities exist in the Cleveland area.

and there are literally dozens in Boston, Houston, New York etc.

The point I made was in relation to the absurd assertion Cleveland was the centre of the US healthcare industry.

It is not. Not even close. And the other poster mentioned CC which was the reason for my comment.

Let me repeat for those that missed it before. Cleveland is not the center of the US healthcare industry. Sorry that seems to bother people so much. No one is saying Cleveland is bad, at least in the context of my discussion, but trying to make it into something more than it is, is also goofy.

Dallas has some top ranked movie studios...it is not the center of the US movie business.
Los Angeles has an oil company headquarters...it is not the centre of the US energy business.
San Antonio has an auto plant...it is not the center of the US auto industry.
Atlanta has big banks...it is not the center of the US banking industry.
Cleveland has a great, great hospital( as do most big metros) that does not make it the center of the business.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
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jetpixx
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:37 am

I am a CLE fan, but I would think until they rectify their ridiculously substandard FIS, they aren't realistically in any kind of discussion for TATL service to return.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 168):
CMH has an international gate (C46) with direct access to the FIS area.

I've never arrived Int'l at CMH, I know the seasonal Cancun flight would I take it... Interesting, I'll have to get nosy there next time...  
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 177):
I am a CLE fan, but I would think until they rectify their ridiculously substandard FIS, they aren't realistically in any kind of discussion for TATL service to return.

That is an intresting point. Sort of chicken-or-the-egg question for many of these cities. If you build it will they come, or do you wait for them to come and then build it?
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masseybrown
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:51 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 177):
I am a CLE fan, but I would think until they rectify their ridiculously substandard FIS, they aren't realistically in any kind of discussion for TATL service to return.

Doing something about that was in the airport's master plan; I believe it was scheduled for 2017 or so. Now, in light of United's reductions, the master plan is under revision, so there is no current timetable.

Now that the airport has a lot of available real estate to play with, there are many possible options for a FIS that could be accomplished quickly and cheaply.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 180):
Now that the airport has a lot of available real estate to play with, there are many possible options for a FIS that could be accomplished quickly and cheaply.

I hope you're right...I miss the days seeing the JAT DC10, or occasional Condor DC-8, I believe it was...sitting at Concourse A. Those DE flights were so cool, and I believe they went to WAW. It was the highlight of my evening watching planes as a little man.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 169):
According to a VS press release today, they will be entering DTW-LHR, which takes one of the cities discussed out of the sweepstakes.

In all reality VS entering DTW is just an increase in frequency on the route for the DL/VS joint venture. I don't think it knocks DTW off BA/AA's potential list although it certainly doesn't help.

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 173):
-Eaton Corporation

While they have a major presence in Cleveland, aren't they Headquartered in Dublin? That would take them off the headquarters list.

Quoting Indy (Reply 175):
Cargo out of IND is huge.

As it is going into Columbus.
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 178):
've never arrived Int'l at CMH, I know the seasonal Cancun flight would I take it... Interesting, I'll have to get nosy there next time...

As I remember, there are two doors with no door handles to the right as you enter the seating area for C46. I think this is the entrance to the FIS area.

The exit is near Carousel 6. There's a sign overhead which says "International Arrivals".
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 182):
In all reality VS entering DTW is just an increase in frequency on the route for the DL/VS joint venture. I don't think it knocks DTW off BA/AA's potential list although it certainly doesn't help.

It's not a frequency increase. A Virgin plane will replace an DL plane. Remains at 2x daily.
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joeman
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 182):
Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 173):-Eaton CorporationWhile they have a major presence in Cleveland, aren't they Headquartered in Dublin? That would take them off the headquarters list.

Technically as a result of their last takeover, yes, for the usual American dream of savings on taxes by offshore presence. Their presence in Cleveland has not changed, only upgraded with relocation to a facility in the burbs.
 
steeler83
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting kd5mdk (Reply 127):
It might be worth noting that the AUS 788 is expected to become available next summer as it is upgauged to a 772.
Quoting PITrules (Reply 182):
Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 173):
-Eaton Corporation

While they have a major presence in Cleveland, aren't they Headquartered in Dublin? That would take them off the headquarters list.

So this is the same Eaton Corporation that manufactures transmissions and rear differentials for heavy trucks. I had no idea they are as big as they are and that they're not only in automotive. At my current job, I pull a crap load of Eaton and Fuller transmission and rear differential parts for our rebuilders!

Getting back to how this pertains to aviation, I wonder what kind of traffic is traveling between Dublin and Ohio, considering the hq is on one side of the pond, but the heart of its operations is still in Ohio.
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par13del
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:21 am

An interesting thread, I do note however that the bulk of the postings relate to the demand and numbers in the US cities, not much about the demand or interest from the other side of the pond wanting to travel to these cities.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:24 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 169):
According to a VS press release today, they will be entering DTW-LHR, which takes one of the cities discussed out of the sweepstakes.

Not really, as MAH said there is no change on DTW-LHR as DL/VS are merely swapping metal within their JBA. The new VS service is really just a DL flight in disguise, just as how EWR-AMS/CDG/LHR replace existing KL/AF/VS services to right-size capacity, and not (as one poster once suggested in another thread) suggestive that DL want an EWR focus city.

If BA had decided that they wanted to fly to DTW, this announcement would do virtually nothing to make them change their mind.
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PITrules
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting joeman (Reply 185):
Technically as a result of their last takeover, yes, for the usual American dream of savings on taxes by offshore presence. Their presence in Cleveland has not changed, only upgraded with relocation to a facility in the burbs.

I agree; however these types of acquisitions and relocations have affected all the other cities under consideration at one time or another, and yet they have had their headquarters list reduced. So a fair comparison would be to remove Eaton from CLE's headquarters list, or to add the corporations with a major presence (but with no headquarters) to CLE and the other cities in order to make a more level comparison.

For example, here in Pittsburgh we lost HJ Heinz, Alcoa, and Mellon bank from the Fortune 500 list. HJ Heinz was acquired by Berkshire Hathaway and taken private, yet their global headquarters remains in PIT. Alcoa's new CEO (at the time) preferred their NYC office, moved back there, and filed NYC as the company's headquarters. Alcoa's headquarters in NYC has about 150 employees, but Pittsburgh still has 2,000 corporate and research employees, including the flight department. Mellon Bank was merged with Bank of New York, yet BNY/Mellon (the new company's name and one of the world's largest) has more employees in Pittsburgh than anywhere else in the world, including NYC. They even moved their corporate flight dept to Pittsburgh.
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LambertMan
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:16 pm

This is really stuff we already knew, but evidently the airport administration if meeting with BA in Chicago in the near future.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...1-be9a-5e2e-be52-b581fca9331e.html

My guess is that its down to either New Orleans or St. Louis and whoever can come up with the best incentive package will land the flight. Though New Orleans has the better tourist draw, I can't help but think St. Louis would fare better especially if they are counting on the business community to fill the business class seats.

Here's to hoping, I guess...
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 190):
My guess is that its down to either New Orleans or St. Louis and whoever can come up with the best incentive package will land the flight.

Not sure what makes you think that it is between STL and MSY. STL maybe. MSY... probably not. They are going to need business support and I just don't see MSY having a shot. In the end it could be none of those locations. Watch MCI get it or something like that.
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MSYtristar
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:04 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 191):
MSY... probably not. They are going to need business support and I just don't see MSY having a shot.

A subsidy from the state of Louisiana would without question be involved, but the O&D numbers are there to Western Europe from MSY. Total passenger traffic between MSY and W. Europe was higher than STL, BNA, AUS, HNL, CMH, BNA, and MCI in 2013. In fact out of those cities, only AUS has a higher percentage of London-bound passengers...approx 35,000 compared to 33,000 in MSY. STL was a strong second in passenger demand.

The 787 makes cities that were perhaps less than ideal for long haul 767 service more appealing. I think in time you'll see several of these cities get a nonstop to London. Most are well deserving I would say.
 
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:11 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 192):
A subsidy from the state of Louisiana would without question be involved, but the O&D numbers are there to Western Europe from MSY.

Isn't it a load of crap that cities that can support the service basically have to offer up bribes to get it. I wonder how different things would be right now if airlines weren't allowed to merge away the competition like they did.
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Cubsrule
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 193):
Isn't it a load of crap that cities that can support the service basically have to offer up bribes to get it.

"Bribes," as you say, have been around since long before merger-mania. For instance, the IIRC State of Connecticut subsidized BDL-AMS both times.
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MSYtristar
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 193):
Isn't it a load of crap that cities that can support the service basically have to offer up bribes to get it.

It's sort of the way things go nowadays if you're not a hub city and looking to attract new INTL service. It gives the airlines more incentive to give the market time to prove itself. When the subsidies run out, if the market isn't performing well, adios. And vice versa of course. I think PIT-CDG is a good example. From what I remember, there was an initial subsidy, but no longer, and the flight is continuing to operate.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 193):
Isn't it a load of crap that cities that can support the service basically have to offer up bribes to get it. I wonder how different things would be right now if airlines weren't allowed to merge away the competition like they did.

Yes and what is even worse is when some airlines go from city to city using up the money then moving on to the next city.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 193):

Isn't it a load of crap that cities that can support the service basically have to offer up bribes to get it. I wonder how different things would be right now if airlines weren't allowed to merge away the competition like they did.

I work in the film industry out here in SoCal and it is just as bad or worse with film/tv. Give us a credit or else we move. Hollywood and airplanes are two things that communities are willing to toss money at.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting BoBloblaw

and stadiums.

There are very few parts of the US economy doing well and Oil and gas is one of the few. MSY is close enough to some of the petrochemical activity that is resulting from shale gas that it may be more than tourist destination going forward.

Having said that it would not surprise me to see more frequency to the Houston, Dallas, Austin and possibly even San Antonio. Heck 3-5 years out you could see Midland with International service. Sounds crazy unless you've seen it first hand.
 
OEH68
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RE: BA Considering London-CMH/CLE/BNA/STL/IND (Part 2)

Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:09 pm

I would love a non-stop to CLE, as I go there a couple times a year and the connection is such a hassle. A thrice weekly 787-8 perhaps?
OEH68

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