User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:01 pm

Pilot trade union representing Air France have made formal notification is planned industrial action from September 15 to 22.

Strike is largely result of plans by AF to farm out flying to Hop! and Transavia.

Unions says the companies move without prior consultation with unions is in violation, and that such flying must be performed by union represented AF pilots.
They say they are willing to explore options for revisions with company, but company actions show that decisions were made in advance without required input from staff.

Here is story in English -
http://www.english.rfi.fr/visiting-f...air-france-pilots-strike-september

This follows prior single day industrial action on August 2nd.
Company previously said it would announce details of its modification of short/medium flying in October.
mercure f-wtcc
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:13 am

AFR pilots striking? What else is new...

[Edited 2014-08-28 18:14:04]
Trikes are for kids!
 
AOMlover
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 6:03 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting atct (Reply 1):
AFR pilots striking? What else is new...

Funny, I have the feeling that LH pilots are striking much more often than their AF counterparts these days...
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:49 am

God....who ISN'T striking in Europe right now?   Good thing I'm not slated to go over there.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:11 pm

Any success Air France desires will be only achieved in participation by staff.

The lack of dialogue with unwillingness of enterprise to engage staff prior to making major announcements only serve to put company in position like this where union follow its legal rights and serve notice action.

In addition the company appears to ignore its previous pact that no additional flying for aircraft 100+ seats would be taken away, and that regardless of brand or network, pilot staff would work under single union agreement.

Its important to note that through successful consultation prior AF develop its Transform 2015 plans, so its acting inconsistent now when its about to reveal the already finalized Perform 2020 plan without prior consultation and approval with the appropriate work councils.
mercure f-wtcc
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:43 pm

Interview, AF CEO says AF crews narrowbody paid approximately 40-70% more than Transavia crews, which themselves are 20% higher than EasyJet.

CEO says however he would rather drop the entire transfer to Transavia then carry AF cost over to Transavia. There is also consideration of placing A320 under Hop! branding for Orly flights.

There is a big sticking point company acknowledge as it must receive approval from employee unions before Transavia fleet can be expanded beyond 14 frames, and this will have to be issue they negotiate. Already company placed order for 7 additional frames, but no commitment if they can be operated.

AF pilots union of opinion that any aircraft excess of 100 seats regardless of Hop!, Transavia or AF must be operated under single contract terms.

In French
http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-ser...ansavia-1037059.php#gauche_article
mercure f-wtcc
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:51 pm

First LH now AF, what is going on with European airline unions? Is BA or AZ next?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11931
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:42 pm

Well what is going on is pretty clear if you read mercure1's posts, AF wants to replace its mainline short-haul brand by low cost ones, along with paying the pilots flying the routes a lot less. That's typically the kind of thing that causes a strike in any type of company, whether there is an union or not.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 6):
what is going on with European airline unions?

The years of excess often under government umbrella is catching up with the industry in Europe in the face of much more efficient carriers in both their home markets and internationally.

Just like how US airlines have had to go through several rounds of painful bankruptcies to trim themselves down, now Europe is seeing similar blood letting exercise as the companies struggle to bring cost down to match market revenue realities.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Chamonix
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:31 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:12 pm

For once, AF crews are right to strike even though they're overpaid and underworked as it is PAX who will be getting it raw.
A5 and HV means that PAX who were getting a reasonable deal with AF won't be so sweet anymore on S-H and M-H flights.
L-H flights will be only for AF.
AF's politcally-appointed CEO (indeed, he can't even run a kebab store) will force it through as the current Government has shifted economically slightly Rightwards.
With hindsight always being a perfect science, the merger between AF and IT was a mistake.
AF's mega-cashcow of CDG/ORY-NCE will now be done by A5.
Zut, alors!

[Edited 2014-08-30 13:12:44]
 
bendewire
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:26 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):

Whilst I would not condone strikes of any nature because of the disruption to ordinary folk going about their business, I do have some sympathy for LH, AF and other full fare carriers. Since the onset of the LCC especially in UK they have driven costs down to the bone mainly at the expense of staff, who suffer low wages, long hours, miserly concessions and poor terms and conditions. In Europe before LCC you had scheduled carriers for routine scheduled filghts and charters which mainly catered for the leisure industry. Even the charter carriers had a loyal and fairly well rewarded staff but again this has been destroyed by LCC.
Even ground staff have suffered massively from the emergence of LCC and I for one wish Easyjet and Ryanair just flew off into the distnace and were never seen again. The impact on staff costs and livelyhoods is bordering on criminal. Even at BA (Gatwick) the ground staff are now Swissport Staff, whereas before they worked for BA and were proud to do so now the fall in with Swissport terms such as zero hour contracts, low pay and absolutely no concessions like all ground staff at Gatwick, solely because of LCC.
So are AF staff right to strike? probably yes, as they are trying to secure 'their' future. I have stated many times I have never used a LCC and NEVER will, I do not want to encorouge the decimation of peoples livelihoods   
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
The years of excess often under government umbrella is catching up with the industry in Europe in the face of much more efficient carriers in both their home markets and internationally.

Maybe they should take a page out of the US Aviation industry's book then   
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:32 pm

A second French pilot trade union has joined SNPL in call for strike against AF.

SPAF also confirms its members will support strike action against AF group 15-18 September.

Union says company has acted inappropriately by deciding on strategy before required consultation with work councils and that all pilots must operate under a single contract on planes run by Air France, Hop! and Transavia.

English link -
http://www.english.rfi.fr/visiting-f...union-joins-air-france-strike-call
mercure f-wtcc
 
boysteve
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:43 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 6):

First LH now AF, what is going on with European airline unions? Is BA or AZ next?

Well LH are transferring their non-hub flights to 4U, so all European flights NOT from FRA or MUC. BA will not be doing it like LH for sure because they did the whole BA-connect, Flybe thing years ago!!!!
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:17 pm

3 unions (SNPL, SPAF and Alter) have served legal strike notice. Strike period 15-22 September.


Air France this evening accordingly issue travel advisory to clients:

Air France now offers all its customers with flights expected between 15 and 22 September, regardless of their ticket issue date, opportunity to change their tickets for travel before September 15 or between 23 and 30 September inclusive, free of charge, subject to availability, by changing the reservation.
mercure f-wtcc
 
UALWN
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Maybe they should take a page out of the US Aviation industry's book then   

You mean they should declare bankruptcy, screw royally their shareholders, creditors, workers and taxpayers, and then go about their business as if nothing had happened, while at the same time giving huge bonuses and/or huge severance payments to the inept managers who run the company into the ground in the first place?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1114
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:12 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Any success Air France desires will be only achieved in participation by staff.

I understand you probably serve your own cause but, please, tell the whole story: AF Pilots want the creation of a unique pool of pilots so that salaries and seniority remain on the same path for everybody whether Hop! HV or AF.

You prefectly know it just won't work!!

De Juniac is right: if AF pilots are carried over to HV at AF salaries and benefits, it would be better to drop the entire process or HV will be a stillborn baby

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 5):
CEO says however he would rather drop the entire transfer to Transavia then carry AF cost over to Transavia. There is also consideration of placing A320 under Hop! branding for Orly flights.

And you know the consequence if he drops the transfer plan: "Transavia international" will open bases in OPO LIS and MAD with local recruits and fly to France anyway. This is a form of blackmail for sure but that's what will happen....and an army of eager manpower is available these days

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 9):
AF's mega-cashcow of CDG/ORY-NCE will now be done by A5

I am sorry but wake up and smell the coffee: the orange tails of EZ are number one on NCE platform and AF is reaching the 90% loads only thanks to the "mini" rates (99€ return) This is NOT sustainable for AF
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TX PY
 
OD720
Posts: 1856
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:46 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:33 am

Is KLM affected by the strike?
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 16):
I understand you probably serve your own cause but, please, tell the whole story: AF Pilots want the creation of a unique pool of pilots so that salaries and seniority remain on the same path for everybody whether Hop! HV or AF.

You prefectly know it just won't work!!

De Juniac is right: if AF pilots are carried over to HV at AF salaries and benefits, it would be better to drop the entire process or HV will be a stillborn baby

Seems quite logical that 100+ seat aircraft are operated by pilots under same agreement.

Look at US, even with all the destruction of industry, no company performs flying of 100 seat or more larger planes by regional partners. Its always by mainline carrier, using mainline staff, under mainline contract.

I see failure all over Transavia concept by company only trying to circumvent agreements. Its quite obvious that company knows how limited the revenue potential at HV will be that they must seek unrealistic wages to make up for poor revenue. Being so marginal I think its best not even to spend all the effort (time/money) on something for HV. Instead lets focus on fixing the core AF enterprise.
mercure f-wtcc
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting OD720 (Reply 17):
Is KLM affected by the strike?

No, unless Dutch unions decide otherwise.
mercure f-wtcc
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 15):
You mean they should declare bankruptcy, screw royally their shareholders, creditors, workers and taxpayers, and then go about their business as if nothing had happened, while at the same time giving huge bonuses and/or huge severance payments to the inept managers who run the company into the ground in the first place?

Do you understand what the words "facetious," "sarcasm," and "joking" mean? As well as the ever-popular    emoji.

I was joking. Or giving them a warning that they're heading the same way that the Legacies went.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:38 am

WSJ article says the strike could cost AF up to €15 million a day.

http://tinyurl.com/le5fo7k
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:43 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
was joking. Or giving them a warning that they're heading the same way that the Legacies went.

A warning I expanded upon.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1114
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:17 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:12 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
Seems quite logical that 100+ seat aircraft are operated by pilots under same agreement.

Logical? the colleagues from Hop! see it as a hijack of their Embraer 190 and future 195 fleet while they will be limited to the EMB 170 with no career developments

And what's logical about Transavia?
is it planned by the unions to integrate all HV pilots into the AF pool thus giving them a 30% salary incease?
As discussed, kill HV immediately it will be less hassle  
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 18):
Its quite obvious that company knows how limited the revenue potential at HV will be that they must seek unrealistic wages to make up for poor revenue. Being so marginal I think its best not even to spend all the effort (time/money) on something for HV. Instead lets focus on fixing the core AF enterprise.

That's where you guys at AF are wrong from the start....and how come EZY turns a profit then?
Don't tell me the story of the airport taxes and social security that AF pays and not the others. EZY pays also airport fees and its social security in France since they were forced to do it by court years ago already.

AF is so old school in their thinking: you always believe there is no market or that there is no money to make on the transversals or low priced segment.

HV could help you where you have no idea.

Next week I'll fly CDG-NCE-BOD-NCE-CDG for 170€ on the orange tails: why do I have to fly British?
a French airline is not able to make an offer at reasonnable price, c'est un comble!

I tried a combination of AF & Hop! it amounted to more than 300€! the double! this is NOT sustainable

If in the future Hop & Transavia are able to fight this, I'll be the first to applaud (me and millions of non ORY or CDG2F centered French...there's an entire world to serve aside from AF bases)
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TX PY
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:48 am

Bleh. Had to cancel an AF ticket for the 18th-21st IAD-CDG in J. I'm due in Paris for a trade fair and conferences, cannot postpone. I was looking forward to flying the mighty A380 ://.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:26 pm

What Air France management is trying to do is divide and concur, splitting work and between Hop, Transavia and AF mainline.
They are trying to move more and more the operation to a lower cost operator ala Swiss and Austria. Lets see if it works.

Though while I am no union apologist, I can certainly see how this becomes unacceptable for the unions, and I can also see the logic of having common contract and keeping 100+ seat flying at mainline, just like in the U.S.

Somewhat related, ironically just this week the European Court of Justice ruled that crews at Tyrolean which assumed Austrian ops in 2012 are still subject to original Austrian employment contracts, and that employees are due money. Lets see how this ruling effects Air France attempts to give work away to other subsidiaries.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 23):

I have nothing to do with AF. I don't even fly them much.

But what I do see however is AF enterprise seeking destruction of its employees and their attained benefits. Company attempting to move same work to other parties for less money. No doubt about it. People are fully within rights to oppose such corporate moves and deserve not to be treated in such manner.

As far as HV in Portugal or Germany, I see entire thing as distraction for AF, a terrible concept. Europe has lots of good and true low cost LCC. Even by AF admission, HV is not that low cost compared to others. But the only reason its pursuing such project is that it insist on destruction of the AF work and seeks to mount a fight and needs the HV platform fall back on.

AF management really got themselves into terrible position.
mercure f-wtcc
 
avek00
Posts: 3220
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:13 pm

Air France really needs to more closely study the business processes of its US partner Delta Air Lines, and become more like them.
Live life to the fullest.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:40 am

It has been quite a warm September so far. Why not go and strike and enjoy the good weather while it lasts?  

I'm sorry but in a country where nearly 800 people, many of whom are highly educated and qualified, are joining the unemployed list every month, these striking b****ds need to be shot!

They should be happy that they actually HAVE a job that pays them reasonably well, instead of cribbing and demanding more and more. It is extremely arrogant and unreasonable on their part.

[Edited 2014-09-13 04:43:20]
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 15):
You mean they should declare bankruptcy, screw royally their shareholders, creditors, workers and taxpayers, and then go about their business as if nothing had happened

Yes. That is what they should do. And I'm not kidding.

Obviously comparisons between European national carriers and the U.S. majors are highly imperfect because of the differing market and competitive dynamics, regulatory and labor/union environment, etc., not to mention the fact that the concept of a bankruptcy "reorganization" doesn't really exist in Europe.

Nonetheless, yes, sooner or later, it always comes down to people - employees, passengers, shareholders, taxpayers, etc. are going to have to get "screwed," one way or another, in order for Europe's former state-owned carriers to become economically viable and sustainable. There's just no way around it.

That is what happens when you have an entire industry build up over decades as a function of government ownership, subsidy, protection and largesse, that then has to fend for itself in an increasingly-competitive market. And sure, much like the governments that used to own them, Europe's national carriers had it relatively "easy" in the heady days of the 1990s, when world and regional peace broke out (not), everyone was consumed with (ultimately misplaced) optimism about the common market, and there was money to go around for everyone. And now that the wheels have come off - politically in the EU, competitively for Europe's network airlines - things finally have to change.

In the end, ultimately, economics will always win - maybe not in the short run, but over the long run, it's unavoidable. Airlines that are too bloated, weak, inefficient or marginal to succeed - like Olympic, MALEV, and possibly soon Austrian - will simply cease to exist in their present form. And those "too big to fail," either due to their home market or their political symbolism - like Lufthansa, Air France, Alitalia, etc. - will have to come to grips with new economic reality.

[Edited 2014-09-13 06:04:12]
 
UALWN
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:06 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 29):
Yes. That is what they should do. And I'm not kidding.

Well, you didn't quote the second part of my post. I'd rather see airlines disappear (as any other business) à la Spanair than go the AA route with the $20m bonus for the CEO that led them into bankruptcy. In one model, everybody suffers; in the other, everybody suffers except for the main responsible for the catastrophe, who, instead, gets lavishly rewarded. I just find it morally sick.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:59 pm

I think that someone should really give a more informed comment on this sad affair, instead of the usual bashing and uninformed bull that's coming this way.
To start with, I do certainly not agree with the pilots' strike for several reasons :

1/- The development of Transavia France has nothing to do with AF pilots. It's pure greed that is at the base of the strike : defense of acquired privileges by a population which is relatively young.

2/- The cost of an AF pilot is way too high for an LCC -type of economics : Suffice to say that a 320-family pilot flies an average of 50 hours ( average of this year so far ) but is paid a *guaranteed minimum* salary based on... 72 hrs / month.

3/- AF management has offered a golden bridge for pilots volunteering for HV ( up to 100,000 € for a captain and up to 555,000 for an FO ), with a possibility of return to the main AF fleet with no seniority loss.
Where the system is spoilt is that AG pilots demand that the pây rates would be tha same on both airlines. For an average of 85 hrs / month at Transavia, the differential would be in the vicinity of 30 to 40 %. No wonder de Juniac considered that unacceptable.

4/- There is , as a matter of fact a hidden agenda for the unions : An agreement made in 1995 which specifically forbid the regionals (PTP which have become HOP ! ) to operate AF aircraft, limiting them to modules of less than 100 passengers.
Now, both Transavia France and HOP ! have - or will - receive 737s and Embraers that will encroach on that size... So it's, once again, defense of privileges that have no place any more in this day and age.
The above is the reason, HOP ! pilots are up in arms and vowed to use any means at their disposal ( including flying for free ) in order to break the mainline strike. This is getting quite ugly and is turning into a war between those who have it all and the plebes.

So, what could happen, now ?
De Juniac will close down Transavia France, or let it die, returning all its assets to Transavia Holland or even use it to form the nucleus of Transavia Europe ( the multi-foreign-based LCC that they envisage to invest 1bn € initially into and could have as many as 120 aircraft in 2017 ( three years from now ). Of course the crews will be recruited locally and paid LC wages in Portugal... or elsewhere.
Air France A320 fleet will continue to dwindle ( from 155 airframes in 2009 to just about 125 now ). I heard one executive saying that the good size of that fleet should be around 100 to 110 aircraft.

Who would be the loser, then ?

As a matter of honesty, I did not believe that the strike would happen : there was too much at stake for the pilots, in terms of career progression, numbers and financially ( all of them are big-ish shareholders of the airline through bonuses and subsidised investment, a drop in the share price is a drop of their money).

Apparently I was dead wrong.

[Edited 2014-09-13 09:47:14]
Contrail designer
 
xdlx
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:28 pm

[quote=LAXintl,reply=25][/quote

Is this not the same script being utilized at AA/Eagle
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 31):
there was too much at stake for the pilots, in terms of career progression, numbers and financially

You are right -
But this is why a strike is paramount importance for AF pilots.

They cannot sit by quietly allow their jobs disappear under these extreme proposals to give flying to other enterprises formed specifically to destroy AF mainline. Otherwise that A320 fleet you speak about might be only 30 aircraft before you know it.

Not even in the liberal US marketplace have airlines come up with these concepts that AF wishes to pursue.
Can you imagine if CEO of American, Delta, Southwest, United wake up one morning and said they will place 737s at a regional airline?
The entire industry would be on strike in no time. Like with Air France such is not approved per existing contract, and pilots would rightfully act to protect themselves.

Also remember the only reason Transavia France exist is that AF pilots allowed it to be created to service some niche routes with a cap on its fleet count. Any expansion requires approval from pilots again.
Transavia France was never meant to become alternative vehicle to replace AF mainline, but supplement AF in a few specific markets.


In my opinion at the end, I see Mr. Juniac will be out of a job, likely told to depart by elysee palace after enough public frustration about strikes.
I think its clear that with Juniac around there cannot be beneficial talks about AF restructuring as he seems to enter talks with premade concepts. For example this whole Hop! and HV expansion can only be negotiated in unison, not publicly announced ahead of time has he has already done. He has already decided the outcome, before talks.
Only with a leader that has open ears can AF restructuring take place. Unions have said they understand changes need to be made and want to be part of future success of AF, but current atmosphere is not one that is easy to talk under. Need new leader for fresh start. Otherwise we see how Juniac continues to play with fire.
mercure f-wtcc
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
They cannot sit by quietly allow their jobs disappear under these extreme proposals to give flying to other enterprises formed specifically to destroy AF mainline. Otherwise that A320 fleet you speak about might be only 30 aircraft before you know it.

I understand completely the point you're making, but again, sooner or later economic reality will win out - it does every time, no matter how much people try and slow or stop it.

Air France simply has to become competitive - the days of operating at perpetual losses funded by state subsidy are over. As Margaret Thatcher, that monster of the "Anglo-Saxon model," once put it (paraphrased) - the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money. The French government has far bigger problems these days, and far bigger bills to pay for far more important challenges, than to subsidize Air France union workers so that they can continue earning more than counterparts doing the exact same jobs at competitors. And if the French government is no longer willing and able to directly subsidize these uncompetitive costs, and French consumers are no longer willing to pay for them through higher fares versus other carriers, than what else is Air France to do?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Not even in the liberal US marketplace have airlines come up with these concepts that AF wishes to pursue.
Can you imagine if CEO of American, Delta, Southwest, United wake up one morning and said they will place 737s at a regional airline?
The entire industry would be on strike in no time. Like with Air France such is not approved per existing contract, and pilots would rightfully act to protect themselves.

Well, actually, U.S. airlines have moved steadily in that direction in the last decade - shifting more and more of their network capacity, onto larger and larger aircraft, flown by regional operators. Nonetheless, it's true - the U.S. network carriers have generally avoided shifting traditionally-mainline aircraft (roughly >100 seats) to regional operators, but that's hardly very telling regarding whatever Air France may be attempting. And there's a very critical difference that explains why - U.S. carriers have bankruptcy restructuring, which the European national carriers do not. As a result, there has been less impetus for U.S. carriers to wholesale shift large swathes of their networks - including "mainline" aircraft - to other operators, because U.S. carriers have had the ability to attack head-on the systemic economic challenges with their own mainline models, something that most of the European carriers (sans BA, and now apparently Iberia) have had relatively more trouble doing.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
They cannot sit by quietly allow their jobs disappear under these extreme proposals to give flying to other enterprises formed specifically to destroy AF mainline. Otherwise that A320 fleet you speak about might be only 30 aircraft before you know it.

That's one really specious argument :
The point to point at AF has gone due top the LoCos, some five years ago.
I haven'tr seen a plan to touch the feeder part of the short-to-medium haul fleet at AF. On the contrary.
AF has allowed, because of that state, an important over-staffing of the A320 fleet. Do you know many airlines which use pilots at an activity of some 50 hrs per month ?
Let's face it, it's a population that has been over-protected with too many privileges : Normal required activity of no more than 13 days a month is an industry monstruosity.... That' is the reason why the plan for the outside bases failed miserably : the airline could not achieve the required productivity through a better crew utilisation.
An AF 320 pilot flies 550 hours last year, compared to 800 + for an HV one... Guess what ? the salaries were ver
Btw, those are the same people who got rid of the y close, but in terms of productivity, the shame is on the mainline pilot.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Not even in the liberal US marketplace have airlines come up with these concepts that AF wishes to pursue.

Since when is it a model ?
And what is AFKL really looking for ?
Basically keep the LoCos honest with a serious competition using a synergy that will lower the costs.
What is so difficult to understand there ? Oh ! I see : Integrate that fleet / network into the same pilots pool (AF of course !) hence , forcing recruitment at AF rates ... which means better prospects of quick promotion ... especially when they would generously accept HOP! and Transavia pilots into the seniority list BUT at the bottom !
Btw, those are the exact some people who introduced a lagged increase of the retirement age in order to get rid of the older captains... who retired at 60 whereas they now could do so at the age of 65... cvausing AF to have in all probability the youngest long haul captains in Europe.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Transavia France was never meant to become alternative vehicle to replace AF mainline, but supplement AF in a few specific markets

What has changed ?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
n my opinion at the end, I see Mr. Juniac will be out of a job, likely told to depart by elysee palace after enough public frustration about strikes.

That's certainly not the opinion of the shareholders a few days ago, who plebiscited the management's future plans... and if there ever was an unpopular strike, this one certainly is ; suffice it to read the comments on all news sites, the declarations of all ground personnel union leaders and the HOP pilots.
In this affair, de Juniac is wearing a suit as white as a virgin's and I'd be really surprised if he caved in to the union's challenge.... and the Eysée palace has absolutely no control on AF's management :; you're living some twenty years oçr more in the past.

This story reminds me of the late sevfenties when AF ordered a fleet of 737s. The unions demanded to have a three-crew operation... the management refused... strike... AF cancelled the order... it took ten years before the first aircraft arrived, with a two-crew cockpit... Quite a few pilots saw their career plummet FO periods averaged some 15 to 20 years, then... and for what ?
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:57 pm

In the mean time -
AF says is will cancel 50% of flights for the first few of the strike.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...rance-strike-idUKKBN0H80A820140913

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Not even in the liberal US marketplace have airlines come up with these concepts that AF wishes to pursue.
Can you imagine if CEO of American, Delta, Southwest, United wake up one morning and said they will place 737s at a regional airline?
The entire industry would be on strike in no time. Like with Air France such is not approved per existing contract, and pilots would rightfully act to protect themselves.

I'd say trying to place 100+ seat aircraft at regional operators to get around mainline contract is quite ballsy and rightfully a reason for strong union response.

Most US airlines really only recently have been able to fly large RJ's at regional aircraft, let alone never anything as big as a 737.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
and the Eysée palace has absolutely no control on AF's management :;

According to AFKL annual report, the French state is the single largest shareholder - 15.9%, plus another 1.4% held in reserve by the treasury as of March 2014.

This should certainly give the government a voice.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
This story reminds me of the late sevfenties when AF ordered a fleet of 737s. The unions demanded to have a three-crew operation... the management refused... strike... AF cancelled the order...

France was not unique - at the time even in the US some 737 operators had a 3rd crew member. As late as 1980s the 767 ended up with a 3rd pilot in Australia, so it was not a France only debate at the time.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
and the Eysée palace has absolutely no control on AF's management :; you're living some twenty years oçr more in the past.

Actually, you fail to see the reality in France.

Do you know who Juniac is even, and how he ended up to Air France?

Prior to appointment to AF, he was assistant to the Minister for the Economy Industry and Employment - Madame Lagarde.
In 1990s he also in cabinet of Nicolas Sarkozy. He does not hide this, he is open on his CV for his participation as member of French state.

Juniac is not someone what worked his was up at Air France, he never worked single day at Air France until he was appointed chairman in 2011.
He comes directly from state job, a political appointment (by Sarkozy clan) - similar to many other large public industries enterprises have strings pulled in background by French state.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:23 pm

... and so far, he's done a sterling job turning the airline arouind.
Pilots or no pilots.
Plus, his appointment was approved by the board, in which the state has certainly neither a blocking vote or a majority.

Let's face it : all this rethoric about an AF common pool is just a smokescreen for maintaining privierges ( which means screwing other *lesser* pilots and a totally dishonest appreciation of economic realities.
( I'm not surprised )
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):
.. and so far, he's done a sterling job turning the airline arouind.

He has been sterling at creation of commotion and fighting.
French don't like commotion and mavericks, so I see he is overstay his welcome and a long strike could be the end of his career also.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):
Plus, his appointment was approved by the board, in which the state has certainly neither a blocking vote or a majority.

Naive to think any French shareholder such as banks would oppose the opinion of Elysee.
Even 100% private companies in France listen to political wishes. Entire organs that oversee industry such as regulations, taxation in hands of government so not good idea to oppose views of Elysee.

Also remember, French industry is a small club. The chiefs all come from same schools, are developed specifically to lead either in government or industry, and move around from post to post within little community. Oppose government wish, you lose your place and favors from this community.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):
Let's face it : all this rethoric about an AF common pool is just a smokescreen for maintaining privierges

France is a nation of privileges no? So cest normal.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:37 pm

Sorry.
Your posts are now just an accumulation of very feeble generalisations and clichés and stereotypes..
Had you followed the history of Air France -as I did and as I lived - your discourse would be different.

Yes, most of AF's CEOs came from the civil service... They also came from some of the best management schools the world has seen and frankly, I'd put them alongside the best aviation has known... Air France would have been murdered by a succession of governments which only saw it as a niche to place their protected ones and never made the right investment - had there been any of importance until 1995 when the airlkine was gasping its last breath.
*
As for those pilots defending a 13 days month and a salary based on 72 hours of flight when one does 50 their action is both shameful and worthy of a muppet show special day... comical if it wasn't a tragedy for the rest of the employees. ( By the way, are those FAs and ground staffs following that industrial action ? )

You are certainly entitled to your opinion...
As for me, aviation and the pilot uniform has never been a question of 17 days of rest when one has flown 50 hours. I've loved flying quite a bit more than that.
And I don't like it when these baXXXXds are - again- trying to screw their colleagues, this time in HOP ! and Transavia.

Transavia France is, IMHO, already dead... killed by some unions of nincompoops with an over-inflated ego.

Vive Transavia Europe !

The problem, one of the big problems at Air France is privileges... These people never speak about duty or something as sacred as *the Mission*, which used to be our motto.

[Edited 2014-09-13 14:40:38]
Contrail designer
 
goldorak
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:49 pm

FYI, AF is leasing aircrafts & crews to other companies to minimize the strike impact. Corsair will operate flights to YUL. Europe Airpost will also operate some medium-haul flights.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:55 pm

So which one is it  
Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
the Eysée palace has absolutely no control on AF's management

or

Quoting Pihero (Reply 40):
Yes, most of AF's CEOs came from the civil service...

 

Either the state has its fingers in the company or not. Seems to me as the largest shareholder, they do exert influence.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:45 pm

... as if in your country it never happens : people who show their managerial qualities as civil ,- or military servants - and join the industry later (some end up in jail because their managerial qualities weren't enough, apparently ), so your feigned ingenuity doesn't fool me.   

Quite a few of our people, given the right means, have managed to give the US industry a good run for their money (Blanc, Spinetta have turned Air France over).... and just have a look at the French Airbus executives... same situation in many industries in France ). Do you really have a good reason to dismiss them ?
Lastly, of the fourteen board members, only three represent the French state... do you really think they have the power to rule the company ? As a comparison, four Dutchmen are on that board. Are they lackeys of what my friend calls the Elysée palace ? The pilots have one representative, elected by a general election.

So, no, the state doesn't rule the combined airline.
Contrail designer
 
alphaomega
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:09 am

Back to the issue - what affect is this having on flights? Are there any cancellations yet?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 23909
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:43 am

60% of the Monday schedule cancelled.

Air France to run 40 percent of flights on Monday as pilots strike
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/0...rance-strike-idUKKBN0H80A820140913

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
xdlx
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):

Doug Parker the new "maverick" at the helm at AA, is doing just that.

They are parking NEW E175 outsourced to lowest bidder, next to E145 they claim are too expensive to operate.
And just like that .... They announced removing 47 CR7 aircraft from Envoy, and giving them to a lower bidder for the routes. In other words.... The contract WE agreed is NOT convenient any more for me. Sorry you are out of luck!
 
76er
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:09 pm

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 44):

Back to the issue - what affect is this having on flights? Are there any cancellations yet?


Dutch aviation news site Luchtvaartnieuws expects that as of wednesday ALL flights may be cancelled.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:31 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
Lastly, of the fourteen board members, only three represent the French state... do you really think they have the power to rule the company ?

Any company has a board of directors with more than 20 per cent of board members are appointed by right by a third party, be that party commercial or governmental, is subject to very strong influence by that party. Think about it. If strong influence was not the intention why:

1. Have numerically greater influence in the boardroom (21.4 per cent) than in ownership (15.9 per cent)?

2. Have three board members when one would be sufficient to express rather than bring pressure to try and enforce state interests?

And I am not even sure if the three 'government' board members include M. Juniac or whether any of its other members have a historic direct connection to the French government or civil service.

Here on this side of La Manche some of us will have a sense of dejavu. Bob Ayling was appointed BA CEO in the mid 1990s.

Originally Ayling was a Civil Servant. He joined BA from the Department of Trade in 1985. This was in front of BA;s privatisation in 1987. In BA he rose rapidly based entirely on his demonstrated talent. He was BA CEO from 1996 to 2000. As CEO Ayling faced many of the challenges Juniac faces today. This resulted in similar industrial unrest. This may be coincidence. It might also because both of these CEOs were experienced Civil Servants where the culture is so very different from that of a commercial company operating in a highly competitive environment.

Over here the move from Bob Ayling to first an Australian, Rod Eddington, and later to an Irishman, Willie Walsh broke the British Civil Service influence at BA board level and all for the better.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:53 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
I haven'tr seen a plan to touch the feeder part of the short-to-medium haul fleet at AF. On the contrary.
AF has allowed, because of that state, an important over-staffing of the A320 fleet. Do you know many airlines which use pilots at an activity of some 50 hrs per month ?

Those are two separate issues. AF could increase its pilots' workload (which would be a reasonable efficiency measure) without placing them at a subsidiary carrier.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos