AirGAbon
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting andrej (Reply 98):
Employees are not happy with the current state at AF, so they believe in their cause. On the other hand, French were always good at striking and protests.

Not sure AF employees are happy with this strike and I don't believe they support at all the pilots. Many people at AF made efforts to support the Company restructuring and those pilots are just irresponsible and are crashing all the previous effots made.

On French medias you can see that the huge majority of the public opinion don't understand and don't support at all a strike of people crying for earning 15K€ per month instead of 17K€ per month....

Also AF pilots fly less than 600 hours, versus a bit less than 800 for Transavia and of course nothing to compare with Easyjet and Ryanair!!

Nobody in France, including the politicians, support this unbelievable and suicidal strike.
 
AF022
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:32 pm

My flights CDGJFK cancelled. I'm taking VS from LHR instead. Getting out of Europe to NYC is going to be challenging Saturday. Bad for AF and Skyteam, great for other carriers.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:39 pm

Plan widebody fleet cancels Saturday Sep.20


AF022 JFK
AF636 IAH
AF444 GIG
AF456 GRU
AF368 CCS
AF012 JFK
AF342 YUL
AF226 DEL
AF682 ATL
AF976 LBV
AF218 BOM
AF272 HND
AF830 PNR
AF1620 TLV
AF498 SXM
AF3832 LOS
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF724 NKC
AF934 TNR
AF416 ORD
AF378 DTW
AF264 ICN
AF3884 DXB
AF438 MEX
AF292 KIX
AF508 CAI
AF276 NRT
AF474 PTY
AF344 YUL
AF702 ABJ
AF166 BKK
AF718 DKR
AF3852 BKO
AF562 BEY
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF348 YUL
AF322 BOS
AF008 JFK
AF246 KUL
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF274 HND
AF442 GIG
AF454 GRU
AF842 FDF


Interesting some stations like India, GIG/GRU and HND being cancelled entirely day after day even when they have multiple frequencies.
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:53 am

After nearly 40-hours of negotiations and inability to reach agreement, 3 employee councils have voted and informed company their intent to continue strike for 4 additional days - now strike planned through Friday Sep 26.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140919/air-france-strike-pilot-contiue


Air France update their website to indicate extension to Sep.26 as well
http://www.airfrance.fr/FR/en/local/...ws/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm
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vv701
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting af022 (Reply 101):
great for other carriers

BA upgraded all but one of their seven CDG-LHR flights on Thursday 18 September. Compared to the previous Thursday (11 September) they operated:


BA303 A321 (188 seats) instead of A319 (132 seats). + 56 seats

BA307 A320 (162 seats) instead of A319 (132 seats). + 30 seats

BA309 B763 (259 seats) instead of A320 (162 seats). + 97 seats

BA315 A320 (162 seats) + 0 seats

BA319 B763 (259 seats) instead of A319 (132 seats). + 127 seats

BA323 B763 (259 seats) instead of A319 (132 seats). + 127 seats

BA327 A321 (188 seats) instead of A320 (162 seats). + 26 seats


So on this route they offered 1,477 seats on 18 September, plus 463 (+ 46 per cent) compared to 1,014 seats on 11 September.

On the four ORY-LHR flights BA operated 3 A320s and an A319 on 18 September instead of 3 A319s and an A320 on 11 September adding 60 seats. They also substituted an A321 for an A319 on one of their six NCE-LHR flights and an A320 for an A319 on one of their three LYS-LHR flights.
 
rj777
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 104):
BA319 B763 (259 seats) instead of A319 (132 seats). + 127 seats

Man, I would love to get that substitution!
 
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SQ773
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:56 am

This strike is absolutely insane. Nothing here can justify such a disproportionate action. And now through Friday 26...
No words. I guess this can only happen in France. As a potential customer, I would always think twice before booking with AF, no matter the rate. No go.
 
AR385
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:21 pm

So how long can AF sustain this strike without going bankrupt? At some point the operation won´t be viable.
 
factsonly
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 102):
Plan widebody fleet cancels Saturday Sep.20


AF022 JFK
AF636 IAH
AF444 GIG
AF456 GRU
AF368 CCS
AF012 JFK
AF342 YUL
AF226 DEL
AF682 ATL
AF976 LBV
AF218 BOM
AF272 HND
AF830 PNR
AF1620 TLV
AF498 SXM
AF3832 LOS
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF724 NKC
AF934 TNR
AF416 ORD
AF378 DTW
AF264 ICN
AF3884 DXB
AF438 MEX
AF292 KIX
AF508 CAI
AF276 NRT
AF474 PTY
AF344 YUL
AF702 ABJ
AF166 BKK
AF718 DKR
AF3852 BKO
AF562 BEY
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF348 YUL
AF322 BOS
AF008 JFK
AF246 KUL
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF274 HND
AF442 GIG
AF454 GRU
AF842 FDF

Anyone for the location where all these aircraft are parked:

- is it at CDG?

Or

- also positioned at outstations, ready to start when flights resume?
 
StuckInCA
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 106):
As a potential customer, I would always think twice before booking with AF, no matter the rate. No go.

Yeah. I truly will only book AF if there is no other choice going forward. I don't feel too much better about LH, but this is really unbelievable. I have a flight on AF in early Oct. Hopefully they have it sorted out by then or I'll be driving.
 
thaiflyer
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:32 pm

And KLM can pay up for the strike. (again)
 
rj777
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:46 pm

I wonder if KLM is looking at this and is wondering about breaking up with AF?
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:16 pm

Today flight count as of 6pm.

Schedule - 770
Cancel - 545

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 106):
Nothing here can justify such a disproportionate action.

Would you allow your company to ignore your existing contract, and go out and replace you and your own work with outside parties overnight?

Thats what is happening here. AF seeks to replace large portion of its existing narrowbody fleet flying with a new enterprise with new workers not subject collective bargaining agreement.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 108):
Anyone for the location where all these aircraft are parked:
- is it at CDG?

Yes lots at CDG and ORY parked all around on taxiways, cargo and maintenance areas.
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StuckInCA
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 112):
Would you allow your company to ignore your existing contract, and go out and replace you and your own work with outside parties overnight?

Is there not any other way to handle things? Maybe something less destructive?
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:10 pm

Some photos I find:

http://cdn.ruvr.ru/2014/09/18/1495252214/2014-09-17T153427Z_503153735_PM1EA9H1CC601_RTRMADP_3_AIRFRANCE-KLM-STRIKE.JPG

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Ab345
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 115):

What an awfull site  
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 114):
Is there not any other way to handle things? Maybe something less destructive?

Talking has been going on for more than a couple years from what I can gather, and it finally came to a head where employees acted according to their legal rights.

Talking in circles obviously was not solving the issue. Sometimes you need a higher pain level to encourage parties to reach an agreement.

From what I can tell, this debate is a fundamental one and imperative the union stood up against companies desire to farm out a large portion of its members work.
Issue is like, AA tomorrow deciding it will place 50% of its narrowbody 737/MD80 flying in the hands of a regional airline. You think AA pilots would not act since its a huge violation of their current contract?
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vinniewinnie
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:51 pm

First cancellations for monday are coming in!

My flight to OUA via NIM (Ouagadougou - Burkina Faso via Niamey - Niger) on 22/09 is cancelled! Now let the fun begin. Will me and my colleagues rebook on Air Maroc (Bad schedules, horrible food and service) or Brussels Airlines (tracking back to Brussels, and stop-over in Abidjan I believe).. Or, will we risk postponing till Tuesday???
 
StuckInCA
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Talking in circles obviously was not solving the issue. Sometimes you need a higher pain level to encourage parties to reach an agreement.

I understand, but this is a huge pain for the customers - some of whom may not return. Maybe a shorter strike, or several shorter strikes - or something different altogether. More than one week straight is just crazy in my opinion.
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 119):
Maybe a shorter strike, or several shorter strikes -

They have already done that. 1-day strikes last fall, this spring, and summer.

Its not like this issue came up overnight. Its been long ongoing dispute which the company continues to push rightly or wrongly.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
StuckInCA
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 120):
Its not like this issue came up overnight. Its been long ongoing dispute which the company continues to push rightly or wrongly.

I guess it's hard to relate as someone who isn't in a union and doesn't know the details behind the ongoing situation with AF. That said, AF needs change in order to make money. Has the pilot's union made useful suggestions? Why don't they go work elsewhere? Is it because there is no "elsewhere" as cushy and inefficient as what they're fighting to maintain?
 
Pihero
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 112):
Would you allow your company to ignore your existing contract, and go out and replace you and your own work with outside parties overnight?

Let's put thiungs in perspective here, without the bull and without union propaganda :
1/- First lets talk about what Air France narrow body fleet is doing :
  • Hub feeding : Flights to and from CDG, mainly to aliment the long haul flights (this makes quite a lot of money. The airportys that are served are the big ones in Europe FRA, MUC ... LHR, MAN, LIS, FCO...etc... They also feed AMS for the same reasons and same or different destinations.
    This service is all AF 320 fleet. Ultra protected. Nobody touches it.

  • Point to point. It is a rather arrogant naming as it is mainly about liaising ORY to the so-called *provinces* : MRS, NCE, TLS, Nantes, Brest...etc... with some *transverse* lines like Bordeaux- Lyon...Can't touch it as once again the realm of AF 320 fleet and some from the *regionals* now under the HOP! logo.
    One has to know that by an agreement between the SNPL and AF management, all aircraft carrying more than 100 seats have to be from the AF short haul division, and flown by AF pilots.
    One has also to know that every attempt to give these *regionals'aircrews* an Air France status ( after all their callsign has always been "Airfrance xxx") has been rejected by the SNPL ... until now whan they *would*accept it provided they all join at the bottom of the AF seniority list... That alone disqualifies their so-called *defense of the profession*

  • Transavia France : Another agreement between the SNPL and the AF management was the acceptance of 14 naqrrow body modules, provided that AF pilots would have priority on recruitment, but at salaries at least equal to their AF colleagues [b]and[/b) some form of financial enticement.


Now comes the crux of the matter :
2/- Transavia Europe :
The idea behind it is to combat the LoCos on their own territory. The lines that are been thought about cover a lot of the maps of the likes of RyanAir, Vueling, EasyJet, ... from base outside France.
In short, it is a new airline which will, never ever, walk on AF pilots'turf from bases outside France

  • It will not be a hub feeder for CDG or AMS as its only market is the LoCo.

  • It will not encroach on the point to point network, that job being done by Transavia France and Transavia Holland.

  • There could be a fantastic opportunity for pilots hires and careers : the objective of 120 aircraft means basically 1200 pilots... The SNPL objection on unpaid pension funds is ridiculous ... a simple solution has been in existence for 50 years + : it could be part of the salary package, like for the French pilots flying with the ax-colonies' airlines ( Air Algerie... and al. I know it because I benefitted from it )


So there is a question that begs to be asked : What the hell is happening here ?
A partial answer lies in ...

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 112):
... AF seeks to replace large portion of its existing narrowbody fleet flying with a new enterprise with new workers not subject collective bargaining agreement.

It's about acquired privileges from the so-called *collective bargaining agreements*

  • Behind all the rhetorics is the prospect of getting hold of the new aircraft arriving at HOP! ( EMB 190 and 195) which would seat between 100 and 130 passengers while the original module on which HOP! salaries will be paid is still under the 100 seats limit.
    That aspect has been well identified by the HOP! pilots unions ( among which their SNPL division )... so it's going to be quite ugly on this field very soon.

  • This strike reminds me a lot of the one - referred to in post # 113 - in which the pilots wanted to impose three crews on the 737... after four days, the management simply cancelled the order, leaving Air France with a fast getting-old fleet of Caravelles and 727s. The airline lost a lot of market share in Europe and when the 737s eventually arrived ten years later the pilots population had been reduced, promotions held to a halt and the first of my classmates who remained with AF spent at an average more than fifteen years as copilots... when the first of them was eventually promloted to the 737 lefdt-hand seat, I personally had been a Tristar captain and TRE for five tears.

  • But finally, let's face it : this is all about really big money : in 2008, the SNPL went on strike to oppose the implementation of the 65 years retirement age limit, instead proposing a gradual increase of that age limit. The reason is quite simple : due to the 1994 merger with UTA / Air Inter and the boom of the early 21st century, there were lots of very young long haul captains who replaced the departing baby boomers... These very young captains then could contemplate some twenty-five to thirty years at the salary top ( hey ! they could retire at 65 !    )

  • Getting hold of the Transavia Europe plan of expansion is too juicy a prospect to not to try and proifit from it.
    The big problem is that a common pool    of AF pilots is not economically viable... better for the management to dump the whole thing ... but that wouldn't solve the short-to-medium haul woes of Air France which is losing lots of money on it.


Everything therefore boils down to the question of the airline survival.
The first victim could well be Transavia France... Very soon...
As for Transavia Europe... Did anyone say *suicidal maniacs* ?
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:22 pm

Widebody fleet cancellation for sunday Sep.21.

Highest volume of cancels so far. Source tells me up to 80% of schedule reduced.

AF022 JFK
AF636 IAH
AF456 GRU
AF066 LAX
AF012 JFK
AF192 BLR
AF682 ATL
AF226 DEL
AF422 BOG
AF976 LBV
AF342 YUL
AF218 BOM
AF830 PNR
AF3828 LOS
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF028 IAD
AF548 NIM
AF750 CKY
AF264 ICN
AF3884 DXB
AF378 DTW
AF292 KIX
AF258 SGN
AF276 NRT
AF480 LIM
AF860 LFW
AF344 YUL
AF702 ABJ
AF072 LAX
AF688 ATL
AF090 MIA
AF356 YYZ
AF006 JFK
AF558 NDJ
AF562 BEY
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF026 IAD
AF008 JFK
AF322 BOS
AF246 KUL
AF394 EZE
AF406 SCL
AF274 HND
AF442 GIG
AF460 MRU
AF704 ABJ
AF454 GRU

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 120):
They have already done that. 1-day strikes last fall, this spring, and summer.

Yes there were series of smaller few hour / 1-day strikes over last year. Similar to what Lufthansa is doing now.

As company fail to take notice of staff concerns, they must pursue stronger moves. This strike not surprise, especially since it was announced almost 1-month prior, and built upon prior actions.
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 122):
but that wouldn't solve the short-to-medium haul woes of Air France which is losing lots of money on it.

Maybe not doing anything is the best. Take the British Airways approach.

It seems to me today, AF is pursuing the LH approach with ideas of various LCCs, different bases, different regional partners etc.
Obviously this is complex and risky and expensive endevour to pull off.

Maybe it should become what BA has done. Instead of London Airways, AF becomes Paris Airways, focus on only Paris and feeding its longhaul network. Like BA, AF resigns to fact that its shorthaul network on standalone basis losses money, but provides very valuable feed to profitable longhaul flying. So keep the CDG A320s, keep a few key national routes at ORY and forget the rest. Forget the provincial base idea, forget Hop! except on Paris feeder routes, and certainly forget Transavia Europe dream since you can never beat Ryanair or Easyjet anyhow.
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commavia
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 124):
Maybe it should become what BA has done. Instead of London Airways, AF becomes Paris Airways, focus on only Paris and feeding its longhaul network. Like BA, AF resigns to fact that its shorthaul network on standalone basis losses money, but provides very valuable feed to profitable longhaul flying. So keep the CDG A320s, keep a few key national routes at ORY and forget the rest. Forget the provincial base idea, forget Hop! except on Paris feeder routes, and certainly forget Transavia Europe dream since you can never beat Ryanair or Easyjet anyhow.

I don't see this as a "maybe" but rather an unavoidable certainty - absent some sort of "intervention" (i.e., subsidy and/or control/direction) by the French state.

I fully recognize the, shall we say, "complicated" history of internal French political, social and economic dynamics between Paris and the regions, but again, Air France today is no longer - at least supposedly - a state organ, but rather a profit-seeking corporation charged with delivering value to shareholders. And in that context, and given the cost and convenience of high-speed rail and the pan-European low-cost carriers, I see no realistic prospect of Air France ever being able to make money on most if not all of the provincial and point-to-point flying.

BA - which was pretty much the first of the European national megacarriers exposed to market realities - long ago figured out and accepted this reality, and began extricating itself from British regional services and point-to-point bases in MAN, BHX and Scotland well over a decade ago. There was much grumbling and consternation in Britain about the de facto national carrier becoming "London Airways," but one must ask, looking back now, whether it was all such a bad thing. The British regions now happily enjoy a breadth of nonstop, competitive, affordable air service - not just within Europe, but far beyond - than was ever possible with BA, and BA, meanwhile, has become one of the world's most profitable carriers by itself happily focusing on its core business of London, which of course is one of the largest, richest and busiest air markets on the planet. Win-win.

Lufthansa, too, has apparently also gotten this message in recent years and has also been steadily moving away from major point-to-point operations, having now pretty much all but said they're handing anything other than FRA/MUC - their only two hubs of major scale and economic viability - over to their lower-cost operator. It appears that it's only Air France still hanging onto the antiquated notion that this type of extensive regional, point-to-point operation - which, in almost all cases, invariably serves national social and political, rather than economic, objectives - is viable. Like with everything else, I fully expect that, in time, the market will ultimately win - either Air France and its unions will come to some sort of arrangement to voluntarily shift this flying out of the mainline operation, or this type of flying will simply cease to exist altogether due to sheer economic failure.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:58 pm

Landing photo @ CDG



https://twitter.com/Steven__Strong/status/512838336407678976/photo/1
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AirGAbon
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 118):
Will me and my colleagues rebook on Air Maroc (Bad schedules, horrible food and service)

Royal Air Maroc for Africa routes is a good alternative. Okay these flights are night schedules, but the food is not bad (2 hot choices in Economy, good service in business 2x2 cabin) and I found crew friendly.

Mostly B737-800 and B737-700 flights, not worst than a TATL with AA B757 in Y!

CMN offers many connections between Europe and Africa.
 
UALWN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 124):
except on Paris feeder routes, and certainly forget Transavia Europe dream since you can never beat Ryanair or Easyjet anyhow.

Not necessarily true. IAG (and hence BA) does have an LLC, Vueling, which seems to be able to compete quite well with U2 and FR. Transavia Europe might be able to do the same.
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YOWVIEWER
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 3:19 pm

Just curious, AF 347 earlier this week from YUL to CDG (19:30 departure) was clearly using a Corsair B744. Could this have been chartered by AF, or what is the connection between the two ? Thanks !
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 128):
Not necessarily true. IAG (and hence BA) does have an LLC, Vueling, which seems to be able to compete quite well with U2 and FR. Transavia Europe might be able to do the same.

Not good example at all.

Veuling has nothing to do with BA. They dont have intertwined routes, cross selling, and until recently no frequent flyer links.

AF seeks to utilize Transavia as a direct AF replacement on routes, or as a feeder in many markets - more akin to a US regional partners, a shadow operation of AF.

Also per AF own CEO, Transavia cost base is 20% more than Ryanair (mentioned earlier in this thread).
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goldorak
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:43 pm

Quoting yowviewer (Reply 129):
Just curious, AF 347 earlier this week from YUL to CDG (19:30 departure) was clearly using a Corsair B744. Could this have been chartered by AF, or what is the connection between the two ? Thanks !

Yes, chartered. Just read the posts above. AF is chartering several airliner every day since the beginning of the strike.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:18 pm

Stats for Sunday.

Indeed highest cancel rate: 806 schedules, 630 cancelled = 78%

Top cancel airports
CDG - 218
ORD - 66
TLS - 32
MRS - 32
NCE - 26

Quoting UALWN (Reply 128):
Not necessarily true. IAG (and hence BA) does have an LLC, Vueling, which seems to be able to compete quite well with U2 and FR. Transavia Europe might be able to do the same.

To my knowledge Vueling is not a feeder airline for BA, its has not replaced BA mainline routes, it has not take on former BA staff that lost their jobs due BA seeking to use Vueling as lower cost alternative to mainline BA operations.

Vueling does not even service LHR besides 1 x to Bilbao and 1x to La Coruna.
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UALWN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 130):
Veuling has nothing to do with BA.

Well, they are both owned by IAG

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 130):
They dont have intertwined routes, cross selling, and until recently no frequent flyer links.

Vueling and IB do all of this. And BA and IB do share planning, of course. Hence so do BA and VY. The point I was trying to make is that, yes, other LCCs, even if owned by the legacies, can and do compete well with the likes of U2 and FR. Vueling proves it.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 132):
Vueling does not even service LHR besides 1 x to Bilbao and 1x to La Coruna.

So? The LH LCC will not serve FRA or MUC either. I don't know what are the plans AF has.
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deltal1011man
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 121):
I guess it's hard to relate as someone who isn't in a union and doesn't know the details behind the ongoing situation with AF.

Do you have a job? Not being a dick, just asking.

you don't have to be in a union to understand it. Basically what is happening here is your company comes to you and says we are cutting you, bye.

That is what AF is trying to do a large part of its employees.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 121):
Why don't they go work elsewhere?

Why don't you just up an leave your job?

Work in Europe isn't booming number one, but the most important part is to airline employees, seniority is life. Its just that simple.
So you don't just pick up and go basically unless you have to. AF's unions are trying to prevent as much loss as possible.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 121):
Is it because there is no "elsewhere" as cushy and inefficient as what they're fighting to maintain?

not at all. The problem is you have a guy who has been flying for XX amount of years and now he has to completely start from the bottom again. We are talking about captains at the top of the pay scales that would have to go to First officers are the bottom of the scales. I don't know about in Europe but you are talking about one hell of a pay cut. Not only that but your talking about people who can bid what trips they want, when they want and on the airplanes they want.

The point of the union is to fight to the very last second with every thing they have to keep everyone on that seniority list employed. They aren't around to please AF or to please the flying public. That is what they get paid for, if the union is going to do whatever the company wants, why be in a union?
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:03 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 133):
So? The LH LCC will not serve FRA or MUC either. I don't know what are the plans AF has.

Again, there is no valid Vueling - BA comparison.

Vueling has not taken BA jobs, its not a BA feeder, and does play any role whatsoever in the BA world.

Transavia however is meant to partially replace Air France flights, and employees. Its a shadow operation to replace chunks of mainline flying at a lower cost base.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
StuckInCA
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:03 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 134):
Do you have a job? Not being a dick, just asking.

Yeah, I have had a job without interruption since finishing school a long time ago. I don't really see your asking as "being a dick," but I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 134):
Why don't you just up an leave your job?

I have done that twice in my career when I didn't like the direction the company was going and the way the employees were treated. That's what mature adults do in my opinion. Is there a link to a counter-proposal by the pilot's union suggesting an reasonable alternative or do they just plan to take the scorched earth approach until they either get what they want or the company ceases to exist?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 134):
seniority is life

By choice. Offer the unions another path and the won't want it. That said, it's sort of a self perpetuating cycle now.
 
UALWN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 135):
Vueling has not taken BA jobs, its not a BA feeder, and does play any role whatsoever in the BA world.

Again: I was only replying to your comment that there was no point in having a legacy-owned LCC competing with FR and U2. VY proves that there is.

And, incidentally, VY does play a role in BA's world. I'll explain it again: VY and IB coordinate schedules, code share, cross-connect, etc.etc. etc. IB and BA do the same. Hence, indirectly if you wish, VY does affect BA's routes, schedules, whatever, very much.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 135):
Transavia however is meant to partially replace Air France flights, and employees

Exactly what VY does, effectively, for IB.
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:25 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 137):
Again: I was only replying to your comment that there was no point in having a legacy-owned LCC competing with FR and U2. VY proves that there is.

Transavia has 20% higher cost base than Ryanair or Easyjet per Air France CEO, it cannot compete head on in his own words.
Transavia instead is a lower cost tool in AFKL family to utilize where mainline is too expensive.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 137):
And, incidentally, VY does play a role in BA's world. I'll explain it again: VY and IB coordinate schedules, code share, cross-connect, etc.etc. etc. IB and BA do the same. Hence, indirectly if you wish, VY does affect BA's routes, schedules, whatever, very much.

Please explain your wisdom of how Vueling effects anything BA does at LHR?

Vueling is not running 100 flights at day at LHR to replace BA European services, which is what proposal for Transavia is in Paris.

Dont mix your orange and apples up.
mercure f-wtcc
 
UALWN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
Please explain your wisdom of how Vueling effects anything BA does at LHR?

Vueling does affect a great deal of what BA does NOT do outside of LHR. Why did BA merge with IB? Not because of LHR! Why did BA/IB decide to buy Vueling outright? Not because of LHR! But no effect? Why bother then?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
Vueling is not running 100 flights at day at LHR to replace BA European services, which is what proposal for Transavia is in Paris.

I don't know the business model AF/KL have in mind for Transavia. All I'm trying to say is that Vueling, an LCC owned by BA /IB, does manage to compete, so far at least, quite well with FR and U2. That's all.
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 139):
Why did BA/IB decide to buy Vueling outright?
Quoting UALWN (Reply 139):
an LCC owned by BA /IB,

That's the problem with your understanding.

Vueling is not owned by BA or IB, its owned by IAG - a holding company that has multiple airlines.

p.s. - remember both BA and IB had their own LCC divisions that failed as well.

[Edited 2014-09-21 12:42:16]
mercure f-wtcc
 
SCQ83
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 140):
p.s. - remember both BA and IB had their own LCC divisions that failed as well.

Iberia Express has not failed.
 
UALWN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 140):
Vueling is not owned by BA or IB, its owned by IAG - a holding company that has multiple airlines.

IAG is the holding company created with the merger of BA and IB. If I remember correctly, BA shareholders got 55% of IAG and IB shareholders the remaining 45%. BA's CEO became IAG's CEO. So IAG = BA+IB. And then BA+IB decided to buy the whole of VY, which until then was majority-owned by IB. I think it's all pretty clear.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 140):
p.s. - remember both BA and IB had their own LCC divisions that failed as well.

Actually, no. Clickair didn't fail at all. Vueling was doing rather poorly when Clickair and Vueling merged. The merged entity kept Vueling's name but Clickair's management. The rest is history.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 141):
Iberia Express has not failed.

Loss making Clickair was removed and sold into Vueling in 2008. IAG did not buy full into Vueling until 2013. Prior it held a ~40% share

I2 is still young - only 2 years. So time will tell.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Bongodog1964
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 140):
p.s. - remember both BA and IB had their own LCC divisions that failed as well.

BA';s LCC didn't fail, it was sold off to its management at a time when BA was looking for any part of its operation that could be sold off for cash, plus it was the brain child of Bob Ayling whom had departed and whose ideas were no longer in vogue. BA management dropped a big one on the sale, the management bought it and more than tripled their investment by selling out to U2 less than a year later
 
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andrefranca
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:06 pm

Air france.... thank you for leaving me stranded in Guadeloupe, anow in french Guyana.....

Ps- my lawyer will send you the bill, as there's no staff at the airport or whatsoever.....
Andre F. :blockhead:
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:07 pm

Again this whole IAG-Vueling discussion is a bit useless as its not what the situation at Air France is.

IAG runs Vueling at arms length from BA, while AF seeks to utilize Transavia to directly replace AF flying.

Also AF CEO says Transavia is not a full LCC as its cost base is 20% higher than folks like Ryanair or EasyJet, plus 50% of Transavia flying is part carriers historic past of being a leisure product and charter flying for tour operators.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 144):
BA';s LCC didn't fail,

If Go or DBA were such a fantastic airlines and made money they'd still be around. They were failures one way or the other since they were killed off.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
deltal1011man
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
By choice.

how do you figure?

At a company that I would say is doing great, Delta, a seniority number, or hire date, means everything to the employees. It judges your pay, your vacation time, when you work, where you work and for those that fly, it judge if they are flying a line (and if so what trips they are flying, ie ATL-LHR every time they fly or flying crappy domestic turns.) or if they are a flying reserve.

How is it by choice? They "just leave" attitude doesn't work here. My A&P basically requires me to work for an airline. I wont do better at much anything else. (MROs and the civil world doesn't pay/have the benefits)
So I am not sure how you mean its by choice.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
I have done that twice in my career when I didn't like the direction the company was going and the way the employees were treated.

Do you work in the airline industry?
It isn't so simple to just pick up and leave. Example, what should a pilot do? they are limited to A) flying or B) working a job that doesn't require anything more than a high school education. (and they are going to make 300K a year working a job that doesn't require a college education.)

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
Is there a link to a counter-proposal by the pilot's union suggesting an reasonable alternative or do they just plan to take the scorched earth approach until they either get what they want or the company ceases to exist?

I am sure there is something. I don't know what it is, I don't work for AF and in all honesty what happens to AF is going to have very little if any effect on me.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
That's what mature adults do in my opinion.

I'm glad it is that simple for you, but it is hard for someone who has made a career at a company to move on. In other words your asking a lot for a 30 year pilot at American to just up and leave for Delta. He goes from a 777 pilots make 200-300 an hour based where ever he wants, flying whatever he wants, to a 717 pilot making less than 100 an hour and based in NYC. Personally I think trading one for the other isn't being mature, its being a complete and total stupid ass.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
but I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

Honestly because it seems like a lot of people who don't get it, don't work.

and i think its easy to point how easy it is if your on the outside of the industry looking in.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 136):
Offer the unions another path and the won't want it.

What does this mean? How are you going to offer any other path than seniority? If it was that simple why do you think the industry world wide for the most part uses seniority in everything they do?
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
What does this mean? How are you going to offer any other path than seniority? If it was that simple why do you think the industry world wide for the most part uses seniority in everything they do?

I think that unionized industries use seniority because it's an easy way to protect employees who are, well, not the best. Then, employees who I would grade as mediocre are afforded the same pay and opportunity as the very best. They will continue to support the union as it protects them. The union will continue to protect them because they support the union. It's silly. I don't get it. I'm not saying all unionized employees are lazy, but I can't really come up with any other logical reason for seniority.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
It isn't so simple to just pick up and leave. Example, what should a pilot do? they are limited to A) flying or B) working a job that doesn't require anything more than a high school education. (and they are going to make 300K a year working a job that doesn't require a college education.)

Go be a pilot at an airline that meets your needs. For that matter, I fail to imagine why a pilot should earn 300k, but that's another topic. If you work for a public company that isn't meeting the expectations of shareholder there will be change. If you don't like the change then in my mind the best option is to move on. Clearly that's not how everyone feels - but such a crippling strike appears overly destructive from the outside looking in.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):

I'll step away from the conversation you and I are having as it's wandering a bit off topic. I think that most people who work in non-unionized professions find it a bit difficult to understand the mentality and it's always very difficult to understand when we don't have all of the information - like what does this union think is a realistic alternative? Why is potentially crippling the company a good step to take? One week is something I would be able to understand (sort of), but two?
 
vinniewinnie
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:23 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 127):
Royal Air Maroc for Africa routes is a good alternative. Okay these flights are night schedules, but the food is not bad (2 hot choices in Economy, good service in business 2x2 cabin) and I found crew friendly.

Mostly B737-800 and B737-700 flights, not worst than a TATL with AA B757 in Y!

CMN offers many connections between Europe and Africa.

A good alternative? No I'd call it fair to ok. It's not bad per se, but business class is poor, and food i tasted on my previous flight (missed flight) was really poor.

Air Maroc bread and butter is the very price concious market to Africa. I understand it and if I were to travel for leisure I'd probably take them. But travelling for work, I'm rather annoyed. I'm now booked for a flight that has a 5 hour layover in CMN on the way there, and leaves at 6 AM on the way back... This airline being very delay prone, that is all very theoretical...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 146):

Again this whole IAG-Vueling discussion is a bit useless as its not what the situation at Air France is.

IAG runs Vueling at arms length from BA, while AF seeks to utilize Transavia to directly replace AF flying.

BA market is rather different than AF. AF's market is broadly speaking more cost concious and relies more on connections. Vueling is the low cost sister of Iberia, an airline operating in an even more cost-concious market than AF.

Yet BA has lowered its cost within the company with the flex crew arrangements, especially at Gatwick. AF being AF and France being France, that is not possible for AF. Thus they are going the Vueling route, which is an airline whose primary role is to outsource Iberia's Barcelona market. (a even lower yielding market than AF's Paris's and Iberia's Madrid operations). Today though Vueling has expanded beyond this primary role! Good for them. Transavia would have a lot of catching up to do...

iAG has been very clever! they took the most forward looking/sustainable route
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 142):
IAG is the holding company created with the merger of BA and IB.

Not easy to have a discussion when one is just about propaganda and untruths.

I see very little difference between the way Vueling and Transavia are used... or the way Lufthansa is using its own LoCo.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
Vueling is not running 100 flights at day at LHR to replace BA European services, which is what proposal for Transavia is in Paris.

In all fairness you should have written at Orly... A very important point as nit really shows that Transavia France is certainly not a feeder for the hub operations.
There are quite a few documents which disprove your argument : one is the monthly traffic stats AFKL is publishing.
In the latest one - August - there is a small development of the short/medium haul in spite of a whopping 8.8% capacity increase at Transavia ... whose jobs have been stolen, may I ask ?

Remember that Transavia France has been launched with the agreement of those piolts who are now on strike...
The Urlk for [url=]AFKL August Traffic[/url]

There is another document, this time the Transavia Destinations

A very quick look reveals that CDG is not there... Moreover all these destinations are sunny places or tourist cities :
Athens, Chania (Crete), Cephalonia, Chios, Corfu, Heraklion (Crete), Kalamata, Kos, Mytilini (Lesbos), Mykonos, Preveza (Lefkas), Rhodes, Samos, Santorini, Skiathos, Thessaloniki, Zakynthos...
or...Alicante, Almeria, Arrecife (Lanzarote), Barcelona, Fuerteventura, Girona, Ibiza, La Palma, Gran Canaria (Las Palmas), Madrid, Malaga, Palma (Majorca), Seville, Tenerife, Valencia...
or again : Djerba, Monastir - Enfidha, Tunis

When did AF fly to these destinations apart from the tourist areas like VCE or Naples ?
A ticket comparison return fares : 150 € vs 262 € for Venice in case you'd think that Transavia is meant for the same market.

Finally : Transavia is holding the slots the AF Group holds at ORY. Those would have been lost - specially to EasyJet - had it not been the case... So, as a matter of fact, Transavia is also keeping EasyJet at bay through the slot allocation.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 138):
Transavia has 20% higher cost base than Ryanair or Easyjet per Air France CEO, it cannot compete head on in his own words.

Source, please as I read other figures, especially that HV and EZ costs are quite similar.
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