Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

UALWN · Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 143):
Loss making Clickair was removed and sold into Vueling in 2008.

Rather: loss making Clickair was merged with loss making Vueling. The Clickair management was put on top of the new Vueling, which they turned around into a profitable LCC.

Jamake1 · Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 146):
If Go or DBA were such a fantastic airlines and made money they'd still be around. They were failures one way or the other since they were killed off.

I've got to disagree with you here. If you were to read Barbara Cassani's book on her time at Go, you would understand that after a MBO, a company called 3i who fronted the money in the MBO, was eager to cash out on their investment in Go as other investments by 3i created heavy losses. It's unfortunate because Go was on the verge of huge growth and was on a trajectory toward a valuation of nearly 600 million pounds.

Even so, Ms. Cassani was given 25 million pounds by BA to establish Go and ended up selling the franchise to EasyJet for 300 million pounds. Go's demise had more to do with 3i's eagerness to make up for other investment losses. The story of Go is really about the shadow side of having an investment company wanting to sell a profitable investment in order to make up losses elsewhere.

In any event, Barbara Cassani's book on her time at Go is an insightful read that tells the story of divergent interests including BA and 3i. As such, the true full potential of the enterprise was never realized.

bigjku · Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 146):
It isn't so simple to just pick up and leave. Example, what should a pilot do? they are limited to A) flying or B) working a job that doesn't require anything more than a high school education. (and they are going to make 300K a year working a job that doesn't require a college education.)

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 146):
I'm glad it is that simple for you, but it is hard for someone who has made a career at a company to move on. In other words your asking a lot for a 30 year pilot at American to just up and leave for Delta. He goes from a 777 pilots make 200-300 an hour based where ever he wants, flying whatever he wants, to a 717 pilot making less than 100 an hour and based in NYC. Personally I think trading one for the other isn't being mature, its being a complete and total stupid ass.

Here is the problem...that $300k salary is just not realistic in environments that have open competition. If anyone thinks it is going to get more sustainable think again as LCC start poking around and eventually jumping into some level of long-haul operation and those jobs can't be nearly as protected.

Pilots, whom I respect a great deal, simply aren't doing a job that has all that high of a barrier to entry. When there are plenty of other people willing to do your job for a fraction of what you are doing it for it is really only a matter of someone else offering them a place to do it before your business or job is in serious trouble. Particularly one where the input cost and margins are so low and the product (particularly on narrow body flying) is basically a commodity.

Against LCC Air France is like a farmer selling sacks of flour that cost him 15% more to produce than all the other identical sacks of flour out there. He can show up to market with his stuff priced 15% higher than everyone else and he likely has to take his flour home. He can price the same as everyone else and lose money. The government could step in and say that everyone has to buy flour from the man. What he can't do is sell all of his flour at 15% higher than everyone else if competition is allowed.

The airline industry in Europe is going to have to adjust to open markets or close the market down and provide government protection. And keep in mind that government protection isn't providing safety or capacity (for the most part) or anything else really. It is keeping people in inflated wages when others are willing to do the job more cheaply. All the other input cost are pretty much the same for everyone.

mercure1 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:47 am

Below widebody fleet cancels for Monday Sep.22. Bon chance everyone.

AF022 JFK
AF456 GRU
AF444 GIG
AF636 IAH
AF066 LAX
AF976 LBV
AF422 BOG
AF226 DEL
AF682 ATL
AF342 YUL
AF272 HND
AF218 BOM
AF830 PNT
AF498 SXM
AF3832 LOS
AF958 DLA
AF514 ABV
AF548 NIM
AF741 PUJ
AF438 MEX
AF520 BSB
AF378 DTW
AF3884 DXB
AF3862 RUH
AF292 KIX
AF112 PVG
AF508 CAI
AF474 PTY
AF344 YUL
AF128 PEK
AF072 LAX
AF090 MIA
AF900 NSI
AF804 COU
AF688 ATL
AF356 YYZ
AF166 BKK
AF718 DKR
AF562 BEY
AF348 YUL
AF254 SIN
AF246 KUL
AF928 LAD
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF274 HND
AF852 CAY
AF642 RUN

Quoting Pihero (Reply 149):
Source, please as I read other figures, especially that HV and EZ costs are quite similar.

Yes absolutely.

See link in Reply 5.

August inteview with Juniac says AF crews narrowbody paid approximately 40-70% more than Transavia crews, which themselves are 20% higher than EasyJet.

In addition there was interview on TV where he termed Transavia a hybrid airline as it was not suitable as truly for direct LCC confrontation as it still had a higher cost base, but simply a lower cost vehicle opportunity for AFKL.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 151):

Go obviously was not interesting enough for BA to hang out to, or buy out its partner.

76er · Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:58 am

AFKL press conference at 2PM CET.

Pihero · Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:00 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 153):
hemselves are 20% higher than EasyJet.

That's what I thought : You never mention which *Transavia* you are talking about.
In all objectivity, you should make a difference between what *Transavia FRANCE* is, i.e a business case of better productivity - for the pilots, go from the 45hr/month to 75 for instance - and lower costs - through airport handling outside the AF structure... and what *Transavia EUROPE* will be : a company ran on a strict LCC formula.
But should I be surprised ?That's the lie this strike has been based on since the beginning.

There is a development ongoing : the labour unions have now revealed an ultimatum from Juniac :
- On one hand, postponement of the launch of Transavia Europe until December,
- On the other hand, if the strike doesn't end, a denunciation of the management / pilots agreement on Transavia France.

I let yoiu think about the solutions in Juniac's hand about the end of that agreement :
One, I hinted at day before yesterday as :

Quoting Pihero (Reply 121):
Everything therefore boils down to the question of the airline survival.
The first victim could well be Transavia France... Very soon..

par13del · Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:21 am

Well BBC has the following article up saying delay until December, depending on how long the process takes, does this mean another strike in Feb or Mar 2015?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29309899

vv701 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:24 am

.What I am about to post does not alter anything except that it puts the record straight.

BA code shares on more than 170 VY flights:

http://buyingbusinesstravel.com/news...airways-and-vueling-codeshare-deal

Bookings may be made on all of these flights on BA's web site. These bookings qualify for BA's Avios frequent flyer points. The flights include quite a concentration out of VY's FCO hub primarily linking the seven-times-daily BA LHR-FCO flights to many secondary level Italian airports.

The IAG strategy appears to have the objective of growing the BA, IB and VY businesses. It looks to me to be very different to the more defensive strategy being proposed by AF/KL.

Pihero · Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 156):
does this mean another strike in Feb or Mar 2015?

It's more a matter of getting time to explain the plan...
It's also an elegant way - the only way - of getting out of that strike with apparently no winner and no loser.

andrefranca · Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 158):

No losers? And about us? Costumers I'm here in CAY praying my flight this evening won't be CANCELLED AGAIN....
If there's one thing I'm going to avoid like a plague from now: french corps, products etc....

UALWN · Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 157):
BA code shares on more than 170 VY flights:

Thank you.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 157):
The IAG strategy appears to have the objective of growing the BA, IB and VY businesses.

Well, growing BA and IB after having cut them to the bones...

davs5032 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 152):
Here is the problem...that $300k salary is just not realistic in environments that have open competition. If anyone thinks it is going to get more sustainable think again as LCC start poking around and eventually jumping into some level of long-haul operation and those jobs can't be nearly as protected.

Pilots, whom I respect a great deal, simply aren't doing a job that has all that high of a barrier to entry. When there are plenty of other people willing to do your job for a fraction of what you are doing it for it is really only a matter of someone else offering them a place to do it before your business or job is in serious trouble. Particularly one where the input cost and margins are so low and the product (particularly on narrow body flying) is basically a commodity.

Against LCC Air France is like a farmer selling sacks of flour that cost him 15% more to produce than all the other identical sacks of flour out there. He can show up to market with his stuff priced 15% higher than everyone else and he likely has to take his flour home. He can price the same as everyone else and lose money. The government could step in and say that everyone has to buy flour from the man. What he can't do is sell all of his flour at 15% higher than everyone else if competition is allowed.

The airline industry in Europe is going to have to adjust to open markets or close the market down and provide government protection. And keep in mind that government protection isn't providing safety or capacity (for the most part) or anything else really. It is keeping people in inflated wages when others are willing to do the job more cheaply. All the other input cost are pretty much the same for everyone.

Thank you for this. Exactly how I feel.

par13del · Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 158):
It's more a matter of getting time to explain the plan...
It's also an elegant way - the only way - of getting out of that strike with apparently no winner and no loser.

As the day goes more details may emerge, the reason why I asked the question in that way was because the article only mentions management making a decision while the last comment on the union position was that they were looking for government intervention.

So yes, there is now a few months to get the pilots onboard, not sure I see how they are going to get the veterans to work harder for less money (nutshell point), based on the money they have already lost due to the strike it may have been cheaper to buy them out with early retirements and work with the younger staff.
In the long run AF may end up shrinking its fleet with the bulk of its operations limited to long haul international routes.

andrej · Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:49 pm

-> Air France decided to postpone the 'Transavia' project.
-> Expansion of Transavia outside France and Netherlands will be 'put on hold' until at least the end of the year.
-> Strike costs EUR 20M / day.
-> Management states that no new proposal from unions were received and that the talks have reached a deadlock.
-> Pilots' union rejected new proposal to end the strike.
-> 'position has not changed'.
-> Most disruptive strike since 1998.

[Edited 2014-09-22 05:49:42]

[Edited 2014-09-22 05:52:46]

Pihero · Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 159):
o losers? And about us? Costumers I'm here in CAY praying my flight this evening won't be CANCELLED AGAIN....
If there's one thing I'm going to avoid like a plague from now: french corps, products etc....

Feigning to be that naive is certainly not helping.
... and your choice is yours ( as if I needed to remind you that basic tenet of democracy

)

Passengers in France are as a matter of fact also responsible for this sorry state of affairs : crowding FR when everybody knew about their business model, totally out of the situation by local airlines, is their choice.
Now when they really need the services of an established airline... there's a time for sowing and a time for reaping.
It's a tragic illustration of the " me first" motto generalised all over the country.
No one is responsible for anything and everyone is owed everything... by others.

rj777 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:16 pm

If this strike is going to be going beyond today.... shouldn't the thread title be changed to an estimated date that it might end or just to "Air France Pilots' Strike"

mercure1 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:11 pm

Statistic for Monday

Scheduled: 825
Cancelled: 624

Top cancel
CDG - 202
ORY - 74
MRS - 35
TLS - 32
NCE - 25

Quoting andrej (Reply 163):

-> Air France decided to postpone the 'Transavia' project.
-> Expansion of Transavia outside France and Netherlands will be 'put on hold' until at least the end of the year.

This hardly seems like a solution. 3 month postponement outcome still means intent to continue at later stage.
Again company has decided final outcome prior to proper consultations with unions. This is actually the big problem here as current management, they decide then negotiates.

More genuine offer would be to freeze entire project pending outcome of talks.

Strange tactics, as after all company needs union approval to grow Transavia France beyond existing fleet cap.

76er · Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:19 pm

So, the strike will continue. Now the question becomes, will management give in to the pilots' demands or will AF let the company go bankrupt?

vv701 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 160):
Well, growing BA and IB after having cut them to the bones...

Sorry. When are you talking about?

BA focusses its operations on LHR. According to the Airport Coordination Ltd web site BA today operates 4,893 weekly slots out of LHR. That is a growth of 36 per cent over the 3,602 LHR weekly slots that ACL's web site reports that they operated in Summer Season 2003. This growth has occurred every summer season except one since 2003. On the single occasion when there was no growth the number of BA operated LHR slots remained constant.

According to the UK's Civil Aviation Authority web site BA carried 38,318,147 passengers in 2013. This is a growth of 28 per cent over the CAA figure for BA in 2003, namely 29,892,648 passengers. So no cut back there either.

UALWN · Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 169):
Sorry. When are you talking about?

"When"? Now, actually. If you meant "What", see below.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 169):
BA focusses its operations on LHR.

Now. It wasn't like that 10 or 20 years ago. Clearly, VY (aren't we supposed to discuss LCCs?) is irrelevant to BA's LHR operations. It's all about the world that continues to exist outside of London...

mercure1 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:12 pm

SNPL have news conference:

They indicate negotiations have become a parody and do not see how atmosphere will allow for calm resumption of negotiations.
Union has lost confidence Alexander Juniac and call on government to instead step in and participate itself in constructive dialogue.
SNPL keen to find solution to ensure French employment but creating disparity among same employees in same enterprise with separate remuneration is not burden that can be forced.
Only with focus and mindful of consistent protections can the desired strategic development of pan-European leisure brand be possible through collaboration.

In regards to short term delays announcement by AF, SNPL instead calls for withdrawal of Transavia package entirely as short term delay is just a smokescreen that does not offer guarantees and does not solve any of the underlying problem. All it does it allow AF to dodge this situation again for short period without change in stance.

StuckInCA · Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 164):
there's a time for sowing and a time for reaping.
It's a tragic illustration of the " me first" motto generalised all over the country.
No one is responsible for anything and everyone is owed everything... by others.

It sounds like you could be describing the Air France pilots who, from my understanding, are compensated at a rate higher than their peers when considering the hours they work.

Sowing. Reaping. Me First.

Ironic.

LAXintl · Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:59 pm

Whats funny is Transavia is losing money itself. Losses first half of 2014 grew to EUR64 mil from 54mil loss in 2013.
Its not as if Transavia is some hugely profitable subsidiary.

While I am not known for much union sympathy, I have to respect the AF crews for their strong determination to face down the company. Garnering 80% vote in favor for ongoing strike action is not an easy feat and truly shows how polarized the parties are.

mercure1 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Spotter video of AF aircraft parked around CDG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7MiephgGSg

Pihero · Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 173):
It sounds like you could be describing the Air France pilots

That's exactly what I did.
The ground people at AF have a nickname for the pîlots : *TPMG* for *Tout pour ma gueule, roughly and politely translated as " Me first", which says tons about what they think...

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 175):
Spotter video of AF aircraft parked around CDG.

I'm surprised you haven't hollered " Bravo, Great sight ".

OO-VEG · Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:44 pm

These AF pilots sure are stubborn, but what amazes me is that AF is in such a bad situation, surely this action will inevitably backfire on AF.
What does the KL part of the company have to say on the matter, and do they have any influence on the French part of operations?

RobertS975 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:11 pm

I sure would hate to see a scenario where a dying AF pulls down KLM in the process!

AF pilots need to study the history of airline strikes like the one that ultimately killed off Eastern Air Lines. This could be a murder-suicide!

Delta777Jet · Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:32 pm

Hi , i am Booked on Air France Thursday from SXM to CDG, if the flight gets cancelled there are not many alternatives (delta via JFK being the only one) and 260 passengers is not easy to put on other flights! When wi I find out or are there any Air France airnetters who have some more info about the flight! I continue with Etihad Regional to LEJ, so if they rebook me via JFK on Delta would they rebook me on LH via Frankfurt too????

Delta777Jet · Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:32 pm

Hi , i am Booked on Air France Thursday from SXM to CDG, if the flight gets cancelled there are not many alternatives (delta via JFK being the only one) and 260 passengers is not easy to put on other flights! When wi I find out or are there any Air France airnetters who have some more info about the flight! I continue with Etihad Regional to LEJ, so if they rebook me via JFK on Delta would they rebook me on LH via Frankfurt too????

par13del · Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 178):
AF pilots need to study the history of airline strikes like the one that ultimately killed off Eastern Air Lines. This could be a murder-suicide!

Wrong side of the pond as far as they are concerned

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 177):
What does the KL part of the company have to say on the matter, and do they have any influence on the French part of operations?

Bigger question would be, does KLM have LCC / ULCC competition on its major turf?
If they do, when they are finished with AF you know whose next.

JRadier · Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 181):
Bigger question would be, does KLM have LCC / ULCC competition on its major turf?

They do, easyJet.

r2rho · Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 67):
regional flying (but will need to do much more to yield real gains, so far there are still three separate companies with separate AOCs and separate headquarters and separate fleets)

Indeed. The whole HOP merger has been one purely in name and brand image only. They are still three separate airlines, and the old inefficiencies continue to exist.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 134):
there is no valid Vueling - BA comparison.

Vueling has not taken BA jobs, its not a BA feeder, and does play any role whatsoever in the BA world.

The correct comparison would actually be IB - VY, as BA only came much later to the party via IAG. But Vueling did take jobs and routes from IB, it was used to perform all non-MAD flying (except the regional jets), while keeping its route and booking system integrated with IB. In a 2nd step, IB also created I2 (limited in fleet size) to serve low-yielding destinations from MAD (for now).
Similarly, LH and the whole German-Euro-LongHaul-wings are a valid comparison. 4U has now already taken over all non FRA/MUC flying.
It looks like AF would do the same with Transavia - unless they plan to touch the CDG-ORY flights as well, which would be going beyond what others have done. This point is not fully clear to me yet.

mercure1 · Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:13 pm

Widebody fleet cancels for Tuesday Sep.23. Another high disruption day.

AF066 LAX
AF646 IAH
AF012 JFK
AF368 CCS
AF192 BLR
AF226 DEL
AF422 BOG
AF682 ATL
AF218 BOM
AF2832 LOS
AF514 ABV
AF438 MEX
AF416 ORD
AF264 ICN
AF378 DTW
AF3884 DXB
AF292 KIX
AF508 CAI
AF474 PTY
AF860 LFW
AF702 ABJ
AF356 YYZ
AF006 JFK
AF536 OUA
AF338 BOS
AF026 IAD
AF348 YUL
AF008 JFK
AF254 SIN
AF460 MRU
AF274 HND
AF990 JNB
AF454 GRU
AF842 FDF

Quoting r2rho (Reply 183):
It looks like AF would do the same with Transavia - unless they plan to touch the CDG-ORY flights as well, which would be going beyond what others have done. This point is not fully clear to me yet.

Yes that is the idea - Company wants to grow Transvia up to 100 aircraft. Currently Transavia France is limited to 14 frames based at ORY per union agreement. AF even wants to transfer AF pilots to Transavia, for direct replacement of AF services.

alfa75 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:38 am

So, what are the chances they will vote to extend the strike?

JAGflyer · Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:39 am

Listening to JFK Clearance now and I just heard AF011 calling for clearance. Are they operating select routes because YYZ's flights have been cancelled for the last few days or so.

bigjku · Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:55 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 171):
SNPL have news conference:

They indicate negotiations have become a parody and do not see how atmosphere will allow for calm resumption of negotiations.
Union has lost confidence Alexander Juniac and call on government to instead step in and participate itself in constructive dialogue.
SNPL keen to find solution to ensure French employment but creating disparity among same employees in same enterprise with separate remuneration is not burden that can be forced.
Only with focus and mindful of consistent protections can the desired strategic development of pan-European leisure brand be possible through collaboration.

In regards to short term delays announcement by AF, SNPL instead calls for withdrawal of Transavia package entirely as short term delay is just a smokescreen that does not offer guarantees and does not solve any of the underlying problem. All it does it allow AF to dodge this situation again for short period without change in stance.

Can this be seen as really anything other than a call by the union for the state to subsidize the labor cost at AF? I mean people can keep pointing out that AF should have talked to the pilots before doing whatever it is they are doing. This might or might not be true. But the fundamental issue is that the company clearly can't expand and be competitive within the current cost structures. If they don't get the cost structure adjusted eventually this will mean fewer jobs (or no jobs) at Air France proper. The airline isn't making money, certainly not enough to justify the risk to shareholders long term. That means there won't be any jobs eventually.

Again all this is moot if the state is going to step in and protect or subsidize the company. But so long as one presumes they have to operate in an openly competitive environment they simply won't make it doing what they are doing. It does not take me more than about 5 minutes looking their financials compared to other airlines that are making money to realize they have too many employees who are being paid too much. It is what it is.

LAXintl · Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting bigjku (Reply 187):
Again all this is moot if the state is going to step in and protect or subsidize the company.

Well don't forget, the French state does own ~20% of Air France-KLM already, and directly sits on the companies board.

StuckInCA · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:17 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
Well don't forget, the French state does own ~20% of Air France-KLM already, and directly sits on the companies board.

But do regulations in the EU allow them to subsidize the airline?

mercure1 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:48 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 189):
But do regulations in the EU allow them to subsidize the airline?

There is no law in Europe that bars governments from owning airlines. Everyone from SAS, TAP, Aer Lingus, LOT, Finnair, etc are either fully or partially government owned.

Its really quite normal for France, much of largest enterprise have partial state ownership and special relationship with state as result.

OO-VEG · Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 180):

Hi , i am Booked on Air France Thursday from SXM to CDG, if the flight gets cancelled there are not many alternatives (delta via JFK being the only one) and 260 passengers is not easy to put on other flights! When wi I find out or are there any Air France airnetters who have some more info about the flight! I continue with Etihad Regional to LEJ, so if they rebook me via JFK on Delta would they rebook me on LH via Frankfurt too????

I am booked for CDG-BOG next monday, still outside the strike window but I wonder for how long it will stay clear of issues. You are within the strike window so you can delay or rebook for free according to AF. Do not forget that KL also flies at SXM, they should leave on a friday which may help you out as well. Though I have a clue these flights will be pretty much fully booked.

Good luck

Plane Holland · Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:21 am

I hope Air France pilots will strike as long as the Sabena pilots did. Not only to show how stupid these pilots are but also to have KLM think about how great it is to work with a French company.

andrej · Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:43 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 172):
While I am not known for much union sympathy, I have to respect the AF crews for their strong determination to face down the company. Garnering 80% vote in favor for ongoing strike action is not an easy feat and truly shows how polarized the parties are.

Their willingness to continue and show such unity is quite extraordinary. Pilots (liked or not) must truly believe in their cause. And the SPAF Union urges its members to prolong the strike to 25-26 Sept.

Unions so far rejected current proposals as 'smoke screens' and urge Air France to address pilots' concerns.

On the other hand, PM Valls, today said that the 'strike has no reason to continue, must stop.' He is on tour of Germany and tries to shed a better light on French policies and economy (so I am not totally surprised by his comments).

Economy is in a bad shape and France is getting under more pressure from Germany and EU to address its biggest problems. Hollande's proposed reforms are not very much popular, but necessary (economy needs reforms; especially the labor market).

It would not be surprising that new meetings will be held, mediated by the PM.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 186):
Well don't forget, the French state does own ~20% of Air France-KLM already, and directly sits on the companies board.

French state alone owns 15.9%, Air-France Employees own 7.0% of the company. In Western Europe, employee reps and government reps regularly sit on boards of companies. This is a normal practice.

1400mph · Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:00 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 176):

I don't know much about all this so don't worry I'm not going to stick my 2 cents in but can I just ask what is KLM's official position in all of this ? What are their options should things get hairy over at AF ?

Was any contingency included in the original merger ?

( I know its not strictly a merger but you know what I mean )

OO-VEG · Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:38 am

KLM stated that the strike is a French affair, and will remain a French affair. Still the news in NL is that the KL Pilots share the opinion that the CEO should resign. Similar sympathies start to grow with ground & cabin crew, but that's only logic. If the strike won't end, lots of people will lose their job. So failing to end the strike will probably grow sympathy amongst the rest of the company.

Let's hope they fix this soon.

1400mph · Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:42 am

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 193):

I see. Thanks.

panamair · Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:47 am

Have they extended the strike to 30 September? The AF website now says "pilot strike action from September 15 to 30, 2014"....

http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local/...ws/news-air-traffic-air-france.htm

vv701 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:57 am

I am not sure exactly what 'social movement' means but the site also says:

'Due to some pilots' strike action, from September 15th to 22nd, and due to the extension of the social movement from September 23rd to 30th, our flight schedule operated by Air France remains still disrupted.'

par13del · Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:04 pm

Quoting bigjku (Reply 185):
I mean people can keep pointing out that AF should have talked to the pilots before doing whatever it is they are doing. This might or might not be true. But the fundamental issue is that the company clearly can't expand and be competitive within the current cost structures.

If that is the fundamental issue then perhaps what management should have done was to shut down the airline, then start over from scratch, that way they could set new employment conditions including wages and not have to worry about worker involvement.

Unfortunately (in the same vein), AF management is a part of a collective process and they cannot do what they want to do regardless of how dire the work / economic environment. Another fundamental question may be, if management cannot effectively negotiate with its internal contractual partners, can we truly expect a viable plan to compete against the external forces?

To me this is a failure of leadership, on both sides, perhaps the government should step in and fire leadership on both sides and bring a third party in to rescue the ship.

lightsaber · Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting plane holland (Reply 190):
I hope Air France pilots will strike as long as the Sabena pilots did. Not only to show how stupid these pilots are but also to have KLM think about how great it is to work with a French company.

I hope it doesn't go that far. But there is that chance. The difference is AF is much healthier financially today than Sabena at the start of their strike. I'm not saying this couldn't bring down AF, but Sabena just needed a fork stuck in them, they were done.

Lightsaber

rj777 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:40 pm

I think it's time to update the thread title since it's now Sept. 23rd and it looks like the strike is going to continue for another week.

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