Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Polot · Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 192):
I don't know much about all this so don't worry I'm not going to stick my 2 cents in but can I just ask what is KLM's official position in all of this ? What are their options should things get hairy over at AF ?

Technically I suppose AF/KLM could sell/spin off AF or KLM if necessary.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 199):
I think it's time to update the thread title since it's now Sept. 23rd and it looks like the strike is going to continue for another week.

At this point, with now 200 replies and the strike extended past sept 22, a new part 2 of this topic should just be opened.

Pihero · Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 197):
what management should have done was to shut down the airline

Quoting Polot (Reply 200):
Technically I suppose AF/KLM could sell/spin off AF or KLM if necessary.

A lock out or a declaration of bankruptcy are not options that are available in France - or in the EU for what I know -. There's a whole world outside the US.

Quoting panamair (Reply 195):
Have they extended the strike to 30 September? The AF website now says "pilot strike action from September 15 to 30, 2014"....

As far as I know, the strike should end in Friday 26th... But it will take at least four days to return to a normal schedule of operations : these idle airplanes have to be checked / cleaned / maintained / towed into boarding spots... etc...
All flight and cabin crews have to be re- rostered... Catering has to be restarted.
It's a complex and lengthy process.
And to put the delays on the pilots is good warfare.

mercure1 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:12 pm

Cancel totals for Tuesday Sep.23 as of 6pm

Scheduled: 819
Cancel: 572

Polot · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 201):
A lock out or a declaration of bankruptcy are not options that are available in France - or in the EU for what I know -. There's a whole world outside the US.

I never said locking out or declaring bankruptcy. I said selling or spinning off into a new independent company which is completely different.

LAXintl · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:23 pm

It looks like the support for pilots is actually building.

Per media statement, eight AF labor union representing cabin grew and ground staff have joined the pilots in call on the government to take “all the necessary steps to put a stop to the dismantling” of Air France.

Also pilots rallied outside the French parliament on Tuesday.

Meanwhile Transport Minister Alain Vidalies also critcal of the way the company has handled the talks and said the Transvia Europe idea had been rushed into existence and government only learned about it more or less at the same time as the unions had.

http://skift.com/2014/09/23/striking...ional-assembly-in-bid-for-support/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...e-klm-strike-idUSKCN0HI0H120140923

=

TYCOON · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:29 pm

I haven't personally been affected by this strike as my most recent flights have not been with AF and my upcoming ones are with TP and KL (no AF booking until mid-October). That being said, I have nothing but disdain for these pilots and what they are doing. An extremely selfish, egotistical lot they are ... not proposing anything constructive, enjoying their cushioned protected jobs, flying much less hours than the European average at higher annual salaries (making their per hour rate outrageous). On top of this, they get nearly free air travel for them and their families (as do most AF personnel) that doesn't even get taxed as payment in kind (which it should be....). Another odd thing about strikes in France, particularly in the public sector (and semi-public like AF, despite its private shareholding) is that one of the last negotiated points before ending the strike is salary being paid for the days on strike!!! And usually management always caves in... so at the end of the day the strikers get full salary for the days on strike!!!! Ludicrous! I hope it doesn't happen here.
I will have to resist the urge to spit in the face of the next AF pilot I see ... while exiting the aircraft of course, not boarding!
Times are a changing ... new policies come out all the time with the company I work with that often impinge on some of my privileges, but hey... I like my job, get paid very well, and realize that in order to matter in today's economy, some sacrifices are due.

max999 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:38 pm

What's the effect of this strike on DL?

Are they running larger planes to Europe?
How badly will this affect their 3Q results in terms of lower revenue and profit?

par13del · Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 201):
A lock out or a declaration of bankruptcy are not options that are available in France - or in the EU for what I know -. There's a whole world outside the US.

In wish case the poster premise that management should do what is required without employee input is flawed.

Quoting par13del (Reply 197):
Quoting bigjku (Reply 185):
I mean people can keep pointing out that AF should have talked to the pilots before doing whatever it is they are doing. This might or might not be true. But the fundamental issue is that the company clearly can't expand and be competitive within the current cost structures.

If that is the fundamental issue then perhaps what management should have done was to shut down the airline, then start over from scratch, that way they could set new employment conditions including wages and not have to worry about worker involvement.

Pihero · Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 203):
I never said locking out or declaring bankruptcy. I said selling or spinning off into a new independent company which is completely different.

Basically same thing : legally not possible.
At this point, the extreme options could be :
- Kill Transavia France by returning the fleet to Transavia Holland : as it is the same Transavia.com, that's a possibility.
- Find a financial montage that means that AF-KLM becomes KLM-AF with its headquarters in Amsterdam... (can you believe that ? ). That's a possibility which is made almost impossible, the reason for the 15.9% state shareholding at AF-KLM.

Please note that I said *extreme options*

I see instead the disappearance of Transavia France ; that's what Juniac's declaration about denouncing the agreement with the pilots means.

That means the immediate return to a duopoly AirFrance / HOP! on the domestic network... and everybody knows how that will end... somewhere down the drain and the gutter's oblivion.

Quoting par13del (Reply 207):
n wish case the poster premise that management should do what is required without employee input is flawed.

OO-VEG · Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:38 pm

Tomorrow 46% of flights to continue, with 52% of pilots expected showing up at work

Polot · Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 208):
Basically same thing : legally not possible.

Why was it legal for AF/KLM to sell Cityjet but it would be illegal for them to sell KL (or AF) to a willing buyer?

mercure1 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:50 pm

Widebody fleet cancels Wednesday Sep.24. Good luck everybody

AF636 IAH
AF456 GRU
AF066 LAX
AF368 CCS
AF226 DEL
AF682 ATL
AF3832 LOS
AF958 DLA
AF514 ABV
AF028 IAD
AF520 BSB
AF264 ICN
AF3884 DXB
AF508 CAI
AF276 NRT
AF860 LFW
AF946 HAV
AF702 ABJ
AF072 LAX
AF090 MIA
AF356 YYZ
AF166 BKK
AF718 DKR
AF3852 BKO
AF562 BEY
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF348 YUL
AF254 SIN
AF394 EZE
AF406 SCL
AF274 HND
AF332 GIG
AF792 PTP

crv10b3 · Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:26 pm

If Air France were still operating the Caravelle I would choose this company otherwise the amount of money you have to pay for a ticket is leading.

Viscount724 · Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:00 am

It may have already been mentioned, but news reports say that about 60% of AF flights are not operating due to the pilots' strike.

How they can they have enough pilots to operate the other 40%? Aren't they all in the same union? I can't imagine they have enough management pilots to operate that many flights.

I can't recall any strikes by pilots of US carriers (which were very common before deregulation) where the strike didn't shut the entire airline down.

LAXintl · Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 213):
It may have already been mentioned, but news reports say that about 60% of AF flights are not operating due to the pilots' strike.
How they can they have enough pilots to operate the other 40%? Aren't they all in the same union? I can't imagine they have enough management pilots to operate that many flights.

They have affiliates doing quite of bit of AF flying, like Hop!, Transavia France etc.

I think if you only look at AF mainline itself, the cancellation rate is upwards of 80% as I read in ALPA news release.

Its a bit like if a US mainline went on strike, but their regional partners would still be flying which accounts for a significant portion of flights.

mercure1 · Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:30 am

Yes percentage Air France marketed flights are operated by affiliate companies.

Also AF has more than one pilot union. Main union is SNPL, but also smaller union SPAF taking part in action. Remember also there is not 100% percent participation as members are free oppose union and work if they desire.

But according to SNPL daily bulletin the actual cancellation rate at AF proper remains "excess of 80%" as of day-9 of this industrial action.

Delta777Jet · Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:35 am

Any update on the SXM flight on Thursday ! There are people stuck here for the last 7 days ! KLM is always running full so no chance that people can leave here and the one counter in SXM is not really a big help and no answer on the phone lines. Air France is not really doing a fair play with their passengers here! I have to pay 1200 Euro for a one way ticket back to Europe (with Delta) as no one is really there to rebook ! They book all passengers again on standby for the Air France flight on Thursday! They could come with 2 A-380 to pick us all up !

American 767 · Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:21 am

Thread archived.

To continue please click on this link:

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2 (by American 767 Sep 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)