r2rho
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:58 pm

AF needs reforms, higher efficiency and new ways of thinking. But the way De Juniac is going about this, seeking open conflict, and possibly creating an internal civil war AF-Hop-Transavia, is not the right way to do it.
IMO there re is big potential for productivity increases wjthin AF without having to give away A320 flying to HV Hop or whoever.

Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 23):
AF is so old school in their thinking: you always believe there is no market or that there is no money to make on the transversals or low priced segment.

AF continues to neglect the regions and p2p or secondary routes. Their regional bases strategy barely lasted an IATA season. Their (once excellent) LYS hub has been rendered irrelevant. Meanwhile, U2 contiues to prove, route launch after route launch, that there is demand for p2p flying from the regions, and that routes for which AF sees "no market" do have one. but with AF current cost base, I am not surprised they can't compete on anything not ex-Paris.
 
commavia
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 50):
AF continues to neglect the regions and p2p or secondary routes. Their regional bases strategy barely lasted an IATA season. Their (once excellent) LYS hub has been rendered irrelevant.

And there's a reason - the economics are simply not there anymore. Like with many other things, it's instructive to look at the experience of the U.S. market, and then the U.K. market, to see the direction that things continue to head on the European continent.

The domestic airline industry in the U.S. in the last 10-15 years has been punctuated by all of the major network carriers systematically dismantling their smallest, weakest and most superfluous/unnecessary "regional" hubs - places like STL (AA), CLE (Continental/United), CVG (Delta) and MEM (Northwest/Delta), PIT (USAirways), etc. In each case, the airlines concluded that the marginal cost of operating those smaller hubs was no longer worth the revenue they generated, given that other, larger, stronger hubs were nearby and could serve the most profitable segment of the traffic handled by the smaller hub. The same thing happened in the U.K. as well - BA ultimately concluded that first BHX, and then MAN, were simply no longer worth the cost - both direct, and opportunity - when LHR was so vastly larger and wealthier a market, and could cater to the most profitable connections. Now we're seeing the same thing happen on the continent - Iberia eliminated their BCN hub in favor of handing it over to a low-fare arm (Vueling), Lufthansa has now made official their steady elimination of non-hub (i.e., non-FRA/MUC) flying in favor of their low-fare arm (Wings) and Air France is just following the crowd.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 50):
Meanwhile, U2 contiues to prove, route launch after route launch, that there is demand for p2p flying from the regions, and that routes for which AF sees "no market" do have one. but with AF current cost base, I am not surprised they can't compete on anything not ex-Paris.

And therein lies precisely the problem. Based on the experience of BA and Lufthansa - Air France's only true peer competitors in Europe - it seems highly unlikely that Air France will ever have costs sufficiently competitive to profit up against EasyJet's "route launch after route launch" in the French regions. The economies of scale are simply no longer their for Europe's mainline national carriers to operate extensive regional networks outside of their big megahubs - this was sustainable 40 years ago when governments subsidized such networks in order to further broader social and political, if not economic, goals. But it's no longer sustainable when these carriers have to deliver a return for shareholders. If that means that French regional passengers (like their British, and German, and Spanish counterparts) start flying more on low-fare carriers (either subsidiaries like Transavia, or independents like Ryanair and EasyJet), then so be it.

Air France has to make a choice: either exit those regions' point-to-point altogether, and simply concentrate on PAR (the "BA model") or simply shift flying in those markets to a standalone, lower-cost subsidiary that actually stands a financial change (the "Lufthansa/Iberia model").
 
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lightsaber
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:53 pm

There is a way out of AF's problems: Improve connectivity and economy of scale. How? Merge ORY and CDG?

Now some of this would require government funds to build a massive new terminal at CDG and at least one more runway. It would also take the ground transportation. But by having Paris' phenomenal O&D split between two airports, it really hurts the chance of feeding a major hub airline.

Economic realities have changed. Airlines *must* be more efficient than they were even a decade ago. The least painful way to achieve better efficiency is consolidating hubs. This would be a boon to all of France. Customer expectations for hubbing are far more than they were even in 2000. Airlines and their local support governments must adapt or be bypassed.

Numerous colleagues of mine who used to transfer at CDG (and LHR, FRA, and AMS) no longer do so as the connections are not as ideal as with some of the newer options. They're able to grab a later flight (seeing the child's play) and still make the meeting where they are going thanks to shorter layover times (and fewer hubs in route).

Quoting atct (Reply 1):
AFR pilots striking? What else is new...

   They do have that reputation, but as noted:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
God....who ISN'T striking in Europe right now?   Good thing I'm not slated to go over there.

Europe is finding the global market a challenge. Some are doing well, but in the airline industry, the new standards are a challenge.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 5):
Interview, AF CEO says AF crews narrowbody paid approximately 40-70% more than Transavia crews, which themselves are 20% higher than EasyJet.

   I bet it isn't all pilot pay. I wonder what efficiencies are needed?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Just like how US airlines have had to go through several rounds of painful bankruptcies to trim themselves down, now Europe is seeing similar blood letting exercise as the companies struggle to bring cost down to match market revenue realities.

That was painful to watch it happen in slow motion. However, now they have consolidated their hubs and will be able to expand long haul service, including Europe, from these more efficient hubs.

Quoting commavia (Reply 51):
order to further broader social and political, if not economic, goals. But it's no longer sustainable when these carriers have to deliver a return for shareholders. If that means that French regional passengers (like their British, and German, and Spanish counterparts) start flying more on low-fare carriers (either subsidiaries like Transavia, or independents like Ryanair and EasyJet), then so be it.

   But there really is not reason they couldn't leverage their impressive hubs for growth. Well... except for NIMBYs, lack of market driven structures (efficiency), and a 'can do' attitude. Cest la vie.


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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 48):
And I am not even sure if the three 'government' board members include M. Juniac or whether any of its other members have a historic direct connection to the French government or civil service

No. Mr Juniac is in addition to formal 3 French state representatives.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 48):
Any company has a board of directors with more than 20 per cent of board members are appointed by right by a third party, be that party commercial or governmental, is subject to very strong influence by that party. Think about it. If strong influence was not the intention why:

1. Have numerically greater influence in the boardroom (21.4 per cent) than in ownership (15.9 per cent)?

2. Have three board members when one would be sufficient to express rather than bring pressure to try and enforce state interests?

  
French state continues its influence at AF, and if anyone thinks otherwise they have no idea how business works especially in big industry in France.

Lets review the 14 members and their nationality and business backgrounds.

1. French state
2. French state
3. French state
4. French - Mr. Juniac - Chairmain - former French civil servant
5. French - Equity banking sector executive (formerly worked for French government in overseas development)
6. French - consumer goods executive
7. French - flight crew representant
8. French - ground staff representant
9. French - vice chairman of national industry council (like chamber of commerce)
10. Dutch - Vice Chairman
11. Dutch - Chairman of skyteam
12. Dutch - consumer goods executives
13. Dutch - university management
14. Belgian - Commercial real estate sector executive

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 52):
How? Merge ORY and CDG?

Movement of domestic flights at ORY over to CDG would produce destruction of shorthaul market from Paris against train.
One main reason frequent domestic service works is due proximity of ORY. Make people go to CDG, less reason to fly versus taking rail.

Also remember ORY not some small airport - 2013 activity almost 30million with some 40 airlines including links to French territories and base for majority of LCCs for Paris. I dont think CDG can absorb such 50% growth even with modest expansion.
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mozart
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:55 pm

It should be noted that Alexandre de Juniac was a Civil Servant ,but he also was an Executive Director at a CAC 40 (=France's 40 largest publicly quoted companies) for many years. He knows how things work in the private sector in a globalised market, AND he has good connections into the French public sector.

Indeed the economy in France is much more intertwined with the public sector and the state intervenes formally or informally in many cases where in other cases we wouldn't see state involvement. Hence it is useful for the top management of a large private sector company to also know the ins and out of the public sector, and be it only because some of Air France's most important partners (for instance Aeroports de Paris) and competitors (for instance the French National Railway company) are public sector entities, some more some less.

Whilst I do find that Mr. Gourgeon, Alexandre de Juniac's predecessor, was an incompetent imbecile, I actually find Alexandre de Juniac is getting many things right. Unlike his predecessor he has understood the challenges AF faces and does not believe that cullling service levels for customers will bring the required economics to the company.
 
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lightsaber
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
Movement of domestic flights at ORY over to CDG would produce destruction of shorthaul market from Paris against train.
One main reason frequent domestic service works is due proximity of ORY. Make people go to CDG, less reason to fly versus taking rail.

Then improve the rail to CDG. Split hubs always create a disadvantage for the premium short haul O&D always goes to the closer in airport thus denying the long haul airport competitive connections.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
Also remember ORY not some small airport - 2013 activity almost 30million with some 40 airlines including links to French territories and base for majority of LCCs for Paris. I dont think CDG can absorb such 50% growth even with modest expansion.

I realize ORY isn't small. Hence the need for another runway at CDG.Those links would greatly benefit the connections at CDG. A large terminal actually designed for connections with at least one more runway would be required.

The split hub strategy was also pursued by the Japanese with HND/NRT. How did that work out? Yep. Eventual hub bypass to new hubs.

I know what I am suggesting is a major project. But by combining:
1. Frequency would improve, which is attractive to premium customers.
2. Gauge would increase on many routes, thus cutting AF's costs per enplaned passenger
3. New connections would happen. In many cases, just making the connection timing convenient enough to meet modern market demands.
4. New destinations enabled thanks to better 'seeding' of traffic via connections.

Some traffic would be lost to rail. Let that go... it will happen anyway.

I would proposed the same for ICN/GMP, IAD/NAT, LGA/JFK (assuming a multi-runway expansion of JFK were possible as those two airports interfere with each other too much), and HND/NRT (assuming HND could be expanded enough). CDG has the land to expand.

The era of premium travelers doing multiple connections is almost over for multiple reasons:
1. Concentration of traveling population in 'mega cities.'
2. New hubs enabling one connection versus multi-stop iteneraries.

I've watched since the Regean/Thatcher era as my friends who used to fly to various destination on 2 to 3 day travel have condensed it to less than 24 hours of travel time. B6 has noted how premium travelers are fickle as they value time more than money (usually as someone else is paying for the ticket).

Take Caseblanca. I was shocked to find out that AA could fly someone back in 31 hours (least time I could find back to LAX) while Air France was 38 hours! If ORY and CDG were merged, I'm certain the return travel time would be closer to the 15.5 to 18 hours of the way there.

If not, eventually either MIA, ATL, IAD, or JFK will add the connection (via 787 or A330) allowing for faster transit times. The only way to hold that competition off is via better connections. Those connections should be able to transit in 15 to 16 hours...

I picked one 'very French possession' as an illustration. One reason I'm so excited about the NEO/MAX and 787/A350 is the tremendous amount of new connections that will be enabled to bring the world closer together. But one quick way is to merge 'split hubs.' This isn't JFK/EWR where different airlines hub at the different airports. This is AF.

For in about six years Boeing will have delivered the 787 backlog and Africa is hungry for better connections. 31 to 38 hours to the west coast US is horrid. That effectively prevents any business connection from being formed. 15 to 16 hours would be bad, but manageable. Which do you think the market will choose?

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vv701
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 53):
Lets review the 14 members and their nationality and business backgrounds.

1. French state
2. French state
3. French state
4. French - Mr. Juniac - Chairmain - former French civil servant
5. French - Equity banking sector executive (formerly worked for French government in overseas development)
6. French - consumer goods executive
7. French - flight crew representant
8. French - ground staff representant
9. French - vice chairman of national industry council (like chamber of commerce)

So directly or indirectly the French government has four or five out of nine French directors.   

French airline employees have two out of nine French directors.

Three out of nine of the French directors represent investors / industry / commerce / customers.   

Thank goodness for the five Dutch and Belgian directors.
 
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:23 pm

Air France to cancel 60% of flights and 10-15 million euros in losses each day. Wow..

What a bad week Air France has in store. I wish them luck.
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:57 pm

Can someone explain to me why the folks at DL want to continue a relationship with this kind of negative exposure.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 55):
Then improve the rail to CDG.

Getting to CDG by rail is not problem. You can even take TGV as there is a station under terminal-2. Lots of public and private bus options also to CDG.

Problem is CDG is twice distance from central Paris. This means more cost, both in time and financial cost to get to CDG versus ORY.

But maybe even more problematic is that Parisian southern suburbs are more populated then northern suburbs, so for even larger majority of population, ORY is literally around the corner, while CDG out in the forest somewhere to the north and require one to first get to central Paris, then make connection to CDG if using public transport.

Its a bit similar like like Milan with Linate and Malpensa.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 55):
Take Caseblanca. I was shocked to find out that AA could fly someone back in 31 hours (least time I could find back to LAX) while Air France was 38 hours! If ORY and CDG were merged, I'm certain the return travel time would be closer to the 15.5 to 18 hours of the way there.

There is long historic reason why some markets are much preferred at ORY versus CDG.

Southern Paris is home to many ethnic groups such as North African, Spanish, Portuguese, so you see airlines like TAP, Iberia, Arab carriers focus on Orly not CDG. This local O&D demand is for ORY not CDG on these routes.
Same with much of domestic market why it develop and why Air France shuttle services remain at ORY and never move to CDG.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 56):
Thank goodness for the five Dutch and Belgian directors.

For info, technically that Belgian is a French Citizen, but CEO for Belgian based company.
 
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LAXintl
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:03 am

I don't think combining ORY or CDG is the answer. It would mean a massive 100mil+ annual enplanement airport.
In essence it could be the worlds busiest airport overnight !

A major metro like Paris certainly can have more than one airport. Look at all major global metro areas - London, LA, NYC, etc. They all support multiple airports.

Yes AF might be in a little pickle when it comes to preference of airports, but clearly the domestic hub and many destinations work better out of ORY and not CDG. Moving AF ORY ops over to CDG would in essence be turning over markets to LCCs or rail, something that would leave AF in worse shape in its home market.

Air France in Paris at the end looks a bit like Delta in NYC. Focusing bulk of its domestic NYC network from LGA, while Intl destinations out of JFK.
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 59):
But maybe even more problematic is that Parisian southern suburbs are more populated then northern suburbs, so for even larger majority of population, ORY is literally around the corner, while CDG out in the forest somewhere to the north and require one to first get to central Paris, then make connection to CDG if using public transport.

Its a bit similar like like Milan with Linate and Malpensa.

I agree with the similarity with Milan. Having 3 airports means each lacks enough O&D to be a hub. MXP would be an excellent hub, but lacks enough O&D traffic to be one.

But having to wait around for a connection a long time... is not viable. Nor is switching airports.

The connections at the European airports need to improve or new hubs, such as the ME3 or US side hubs, will be much more viable.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):

I don't think combining ORY or CDG is the answer. It would mean a massive 100mil+ annual enplanement airport.
In essence it could be the worlds busiest airport overnight !

But that massive airport would have incredible connections. Yes, it would be the world's #1, or close to it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
A major metro like Paris certainly can have more than one airport. Look at all major global metro areas - London, LA, NYC, etc. They all support multiple airports.

Agreed, but strategically it would be better to concentrate.

I don't think it will happen. But when I read on threads here the complaints of their home hubs being bypassed, often it makes sense due to the connections not meeting modern demands.

Premium passengers are not loyal. They will pick a particular flight one day based on what best suits their needs. I propose a solution that would:
1.. Connect Paris to more cities (due to connecting feed enabling earlier route launches)
2. Improve the economy of scale allowing AF to better compete without cutting salaries

The growth trend has been toward superhubs. Look at the USA. Many hubs were supported, but the competitive advantage of large hubs with frequent connections to many destinations (frequency and fragmentation) prevailed. We've recently seen the latest 'surge' in consolidation with the UA/CO merger, DL/NW, and AA/HP/US.

Europe will go through a similar consolidation. Now large O&D cities will have high demand... But will they be competitive hubs? Maybe... and many routes they won't be. The current 'status quo' ensures the growth of many US hubs, so I'm not sure why I'm posting... For they will naturally hub at JFK, IAD, ATL, or MIA for connections to Africa bypassing the less convenient (due to lower frequencies) European hubs.

Or... for some time, the European hubs could increase their frequencies to improve transit times (shorter layovers between connections).

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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:54 am

I received following notice of widebody fleet pre cancellations for Monday 15 Sep.

AF originally did not expect full participation of long-haul crews in strike action, but now it seems they decide longhaul sectors will also be severely effected by labor action.

In addition approx 60% of narrow body fleet flights cancellations, especially at CDG in later half of day. ORY network is protected better.

Depart from CDG
AF008 JFK
AF066 LAX
AF456 GRU
AF636 IAH
AF896 BZV
AF192 BLR
AF226 DEL
AF218 BOM
AF272 HND
AF3828 LOS
AF830 PNR
AF724 NKC
AF514 ABV
AF548 NIM
AF741 PUJ
AF3884 DXB
AF378 DTW
AF520 BSB
AF264 ICN
AF438 MEX
AF292 KIX
AF3862 RUH
AF276 NRT
AF128 PEK
AF804 COO
AF356 YYZ
AF718 DKR
AF3852 BKO
AF562 BEY
AF322 BOS
AF348 YUL
AF254 SIN
AF246 KUL
AF928 LAD
AF394 EZE
AF454 GRU
AF704 ABJ

Depart from ORY
AF842 FDF
AF766 PTP
AF642 RUN
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 61):

I guess main question is what is AF priority? Is it to chase, transfers, or local French client?

Moving everything to CDG yes it helps maybe transit clients, but it oppose wishes of local clients. Which is more important for AF?

Anyhow, I recall reading AF already say CDG currently offer more connections that other hubs in Europe like FRA. It seems they already lead European connectivity.

Below link AF says CDG offers 232 destinations and 25,000 under 2-hour connections opportunities. Most connected hub in Europe.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...ir-france-reorganises-at-paris-cdg
http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/st...g-the-most-powerful-hub-in-europe/
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:47 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 58):

Can someone explain to me why the folks at DL want to continue a relationship with this kind of negative exposure.

What is the alternative? DL needs a European partner. DL needs *some* access to India.

What DL needs is another partner near the Europe/Asia border. Since TK is in *A, that basically leaves a choice of EY or EK.


Pick your poison. There is no option to not pick any...

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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:13 am

AF seems to be leasing aircraft in from other airlines to operate their flights:

- AF 1340 CDG-AMS McDonnell Douglas MD-87 OY-JRU Danish Air Transport
- AF 1341 AMS-CDG McDonnell Douglas MD-87 OY-JRU Danish Air Transport
 
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:13 am

On a sidenote: isn't tomorrow he first time ever flightcrew at both AF and LH are on strike on the same day?
 
mozart
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:19 am

"Merging" ORY and CDG is not a solution.

Here are some reasons why:

1) It doesn't solve the problem! AF does not have an issue of economies of scale but of an under-productive labour force. Pihero has very well set out what employment contracts look like for AF flying staff. But pilots would not earn less or fly more if ORY and CDG were one. 

2) Whilst economies of scale are a good thing, CDG is already a very very very large scale operation for AF. Adding the ORY operations will not yield many more economies of scale and may possibly just add more complexity.

3) Better connectivity? CDG is already the hub with the best connections in Europe, or among the best. The ORY operations exist not because there is no space for them at CDG, but because the Paris O&D market is so large that it justifies a standalone operation. And although transfering at CDG has been an absolutely terrible experience in the past with a non-helpful layout of the airport and pi$$-poor organization by AF and ADP staff things have improved a lot in the past 2-3 years. Almost all flights are now concentrated in Terminals 2F and 2E, most flights board from jetbridges, the two terminals are connected, Schengen passengers no longer need to go through security, there are fast lanes everywhere for AF and Skyteam priority pax, AF information management and travel management has become much better (making use of digital platforms that customers use), many people can use biometric immigration gates, etc. Hence "setting up CDG as a powerful transit hub", well, that is not a new idea and is in large parts already implemented. 

4) ORY is an attractive value proposition in its own right. Many people living in Paris prefer flying from ORY because it is closer (albeit the difference may not be that huge depending on where one is in the Paris area) and easier to navigate. It is laid out and works like a P2P airport. If AF moves out of ORY other airlines will take the slots and transport the passengers that AF used to transport. In the end, AF will have lost passengers. 

5) Connecting the two airports by a fast rail link is close to impossible. Already now neither CDG nor ORY have a proper rail link. Both are linked to the Paris RER express train system, but those RER trains are trashcans on wheels. The connections are slow, trains are dirty and filthy, run down, people are packed in there because the trains do not go from downtown to the airports nonstop but have many intermediate stops in the slum parts of the Paris suburbs (with the resulting problems for passenger security and comfort), there isn't sufficient space for luggage, etc. It's not a fast-and-clean-and-neat solution like the Heathrow Express or the OSL flight train or Narita Express but more akin to traveling on the back of a lorry over the Khyber Pass. None of the projects for building a proper CDG Express has ever been realised and the one currently envisaged will not transport any passengers before 2025. So dreaming of a fast rail link between ORY and CDG to virtually merge the two will remain precisely that, a dream. And the TGV at CDG is a mild joke. The "rail-air" integration happens in terms of real estate by having the train station in the middle of the airport, but with trains only every couple of hours to places like Lille, Brussels, Lyon, Strasbourg, Rennes, Nantes, etc. passengers still may have to wait for very very long before catching their connecting train or will opto to go to downtown Paris to take a TGV from there.

AF is in a tough place. Its strategy was partly mis-guided for years, and (just like is the case for the entire country) painful transformations did not happen or started too late. Pierre-Henri Gourgeon's strategy of saving his way out of a challenging sitution did not work, because under-investing into the product made it complete rubbish and the company lost all pricing power, eroding the top line even more that cost savings could compensate for. The new CEO understands that the core AF brand cannot be turned into an LCC, but instead he invests into making the core AF/CDG product (in the air and on the ground) more attractive and shaves off cost where they are less felt by passengers; he separates regional flying (but will need to do much more to yield real gains, so far there are still three separate companies with separate AOCs and separate headquarters and separate fleets); and separates true LCC flying. 

I have doubts whether positioning Transavia as a pan-European LCC will really work (why should it? Does Europe need another LCC?), but if a lower cost branch can already take away some of the cost pressure from the existing activities that's a good thing.

I really hope that the AF management will not yield, just like the politicians did not yield to the striking rail workers in June. In the meantime, I have booked all my flights this week with other airlines (and *not* LH, as they go on strike as well tomorrow!)
 
xdlx
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:20 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):

With all due respect.... DL had access to India when they aquired the PA assets and the FRA hub.

WAY B4 their misguided AF/JV .... Does DL really need AF? or maybe it is the other way around ....
DL can bypass anything flown thru CDG/ORY and I personally would rather see them Codeshare with TAP before any Of your choices.....DL does NOT need AF!
 
mozart
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:50 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 68):
WAY B4 their misguided AF/JV .... Does DL really need AF? or maybe it is the other way around ....
DL can bypass anything flown thru CDG/ORY and I personally would rather see them Codeshare with TAP before any Of your choices.....DL does NOT need AF!

The only other non-LCC airline that would give Delta as much access to European markets is Lufthansa. And they are in bed with someone else. All other airlines, including BA, do not have the network coverage that AFKL have.

Unless of course you're suggesting DL should fly to Bremen, Bordeaux and Bilbao.
 
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:26 am

Quoting mozart (Reply 54):
Whilst I do find that Mr. Gourgeon, Alexandre de Juniac's predecessor, was an incompetent imbecile, I actually find Alexandre de Juniac is getting many things right. Unlike his predecessor he has understood the challenges AF faces and does not believe that cullling service levels for customers will bring the required economics to the company.

I totally agree. AF is now slowly recovering from all the harm done by Gourgeon's poor strategy. The outdated products have resulted in a serious loss of passengers loyalty and of positive image, and the lack of re-organization of the short/medium haul network has substantially increased losses.

Both issues have been quite well tackled by Mr. De Juniac, and thanks to a majority of cooperative staff and employees. Let's not forget it.

Regarding the original topic, I am simply outraged by this strike. Especially when considering all the efforts that ground staff and FA's have been doing in the last 2 years to help the airline recover. I feel for them
Very negative long term image given, substantial financial loss, progressive recovery halted for this year… those pilots will have to bear all these responsibilities!
 
xdlx
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 69):

DL access to Bordeaux is as important as Air France flying to TOLEDO OH!   
 
TYCOON
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Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:58 pm

I think Mozart presents a very good summary of the issues at hand. I am among the many who find the pilot strike very offensive (I have no AF travel plans this week, so no inconvenience to me). What I do find interesting is how other branches of personnel at AF have publicly come out against the strike, including flight attendant unions. Other parts of AF employees have been asked to make sacrifices to improve the situation of the airline, and now it is up to the pilots to do their share.
CDG (and ORY) are my home hubs, and with particular regard to CDG, I have noted a marked improvement in the overall customer service side. A much more passenger friendly place overall, even when going through security checks!
And I also agree that the RER is a disgrace compared to other European cities offerings like LHR, OSL, ARN, even FCO! (But one minor correction to Mozart's comment on the RER, there are direct RER trains from CDG to Gare du Nord I believe 2 or 3 per hour. The other ones stop along the way in places you really would rather not stop. This does not mean the trains are any cleaner... they are not. An unpleasant experience all around... and I just took it last evening.)
Regarding DL/AF partnership, I believe it is perfect for DL given the growth potential of both CDG and AMS when compared to LHR and FRA.
IMHO, if anyone could suffer from 'exposure' via the alliance, I would say AF/KL suffers more since DL's service standards are so far below that of AF/KL... So it goes both ways!!
And BTW, Bordeaux makes a whole hell of alot more sense than flying to Toledo... Overall wealthier city with attractive growth industries and good demographics. And let's not forget the wine!!
 
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SR380
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:33 pm

It is ashamed that French and German employees have to strike to be listen to. Oh well. Fly Swiss Int'l Airlines they don't strike!  
 
MEA-707
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:25 pm

I'd like to read more updates and less general meanings about the strike. How many flights are actually cancelled? Is AF managing well to rebook the passengers or are there many people with just cancelled and repaid tickets or waiting in long lines and angry at the airports?
I am especially curious as I am booked to fly AMS-CDG-JNB on them on wednesday and as of now they refuse to rebook me on any non Air France routing.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
rj777
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:30 pm

I bet DL will be getting a lot of butts in the seats from this.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:41 pm

Per French media - AF plan 834 services Monday - 517 were cancelled.

Cancels counts at biggest stations
CDG - 197
ORY - 67
TLS - 32
MRS - 30
NCE - 22

For Tuesday they pre-cancel 350+ already. Final schedules to be loaded overnight.

Strike portrayed as employee versus "corporatism"
mercure f-wtcc
 
jumpjets
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting boysteve (Reply 13):
BA will not be doing it like LH for sure because they did the whole BA-connect, Flybe thing years ago!!!!

Don't forget that BA staff had their turn with the self destruct button back in 2011 with a series of strikes and now its the turn of AF staff - and earlier this summer BA mixed fleet staff were threatening strike action - so maybe they are awaiting their turn after AF.
 
factsonly
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:12 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 74):
How many flights are actually cancelled?

AF is using some creative sheduling by using its own aircraft and wet-leasing from CityJet, HOP and Danish Air Transport amongst others to maintain schedules on the most important sectors.

For you CDG-AMS flights may be of interest, as well as JNB:

- arr. 08:40 Paris de Gaulle AF 1240 Air France CityJet RJ85
- arr. 09:10 Paris de Gaulle AF 1340 Air France DAT MD-87
- arr. 12:55 Paris de Gaulle AF 1640 Air France CityJet RJ85
- arr. 13:50 Paris de Gaulle AF 1740 Air France AF A320
- arr. 17:55 Paris de Gaulle AF 1140 Air France HOP EMB190
- arr. 19:05 Paris de Gaulle AF 1440 Air France cancelled

While the AF 380 to JNB seems to operating as scheduled tonight.
 
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readytotaxi
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:49 pm

Air France


All these flights are from CDG on day one.
(click on image for larger picture)
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8336
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:42 pm

Just got the dreaded -

We regret to inform you that your flight AF188 PARIS CDG - HONG KONG HKG on 09/16/2014 has been cancelled

So I ring AF and they are wondering why I got the email, as they think the flight is still operating...

As a loyal Air France flyer - Platinum for the last six years straight - strikes get tiring - at least the answer the phone in one minute.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Amsterdam
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:40 pm

The AF pilots really work only 13 days a month?
Or 13 days in 4 weeks?
Thats really not sustainable.
The KLM pilots flying europe work more than them.
 
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mercure1
Topic Author
Posts: 4526
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:41 pm

Preliminary planned widebody fleet cancels for Tuesday Sep.16.


AF636 IAH
AF775 BGF
AF066 LAX
AF368 CCS
AF192 BLR
AF682 ATL
AF226 DEL
AF218 BOM
AF272 HND
AF3832 LOS
AF830 PNR
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF724 NKC
AF934 TNR
AF378 DTW
AF438 MEX
AF292 KIX
AF258 SGN
AF508 CAI
AF276 NRT
AF946 HAV
AF356 YYZ
AF006 JFK
AF536 OUA
AF338 BOS
AF076 LAX
AF348 YUL
AF406 SCL
AF442 GIG
AF460 MRU
AF990 JNB
AF454 GRU


More possible as day progress.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:12 pm

Per French media as of 4pm this afternoon.

Planed AF flights today 824. Cancelled 625 (about 100 more than Monday).

top cancel airports.
CDG - 199
ORY - 61
TLS - 34
MRS - 34
NCE - 27
BOD - 17
mercure f-wtcc
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 23967
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:02 pm

Wow, quite effective strike.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 76):
Per French media - AF plan 834 services Monday - 517 were cancelled.

62% cancelled

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 83):
Planed AF flights today 824. Cancelled 625

75% cancelled.



At some point its probably cheaper/easier for AF to cancel everything that trying to run a crippled operation day after day.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting bendewire (Reply 10):
Whilst I would not condone strikes of any nature because of the disruption to ordinary folk going about their business, I do have some sympathy for LH, AF and other full fare carriers. Since the onset of the LCC especially in UK they have driven costs down to the bone mainly at the expense of staff, who suffer low wages, long hours, miserly concessions and poor terms and conditions. In Europe before LCC you had scheduled carriers for routine scheduled filghts and charters which mainly catered for the leisure industry. Even the charter carriers had a loyal and fairly well rewarded staff but again this has been destroyed by LCC.
Even ground staff have suffered massively from the emergence of LCC and I for one wish Easyjet and Ryanair just flew off into the distnace and were never seen again. The impact on staff costs and livelyhoods is bordering on criminal. Even at BA (Gatwick) the ground staff are now Swissport Staff, whereas before they worked for BA and were proud to do so now the fall in with Swissport terms such as zero hour contracts, low pay and absolutely no concessions like all ground staff at Gatwick, solely because of LCC.
So are AF staff right to strike? probably yes, as they are trying to secure 'their' future. I have stated many times I have never used a LCC and NEVER will, I do not want to encorouge the decimation of peoples livelihoods

The basic problem here is that you are not viewing flying as what it is for the vast majority of people which is basically a commodity. Particularly when it comes to narrow body flying to just about anywhere. Yes, there are some business passengers and frequent flyers that will pay more to be treated better. But for a huge segment of the business you can't do without it really comes down to what it cost them to get from point A to point B in a time frame that works for what they want to do.

Moreover if you are going to charge a premium price vs the LCC you have to offer a premium product. Money spent on salary for the most part does not represent value for the customer. Because of this the salaries at the mainline airlines for flying similar metal on similar routes to LCC is pretty much economically impossible to sustain absent some form of government intervention.

Its neither good nor bad. It simply is. It will happen no matter how much people complain and scream about the process. Pilot salaries are going to go down relative to their historic levels vs other occupations. That is the nature of offering what is mostly a commodity service.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:45 pm

Plan widebody fleet cancellation Sep.17

AF636 IAH
AF456 GRU
AF368 CCS
AF682 ATL
AF958 DLA
AF514 ABV
AF028 IAD
AF548 NIM
AF438 MEX
AF416 ORD
AF264 ICN
AF3884 DXB
AF378 DTW
AF292 KIX
AF276 NRT
AF480 LIM
AF508 CAI
AF946 HAV
AF072 LAX
AF356 YYZ
AF718 DKR
AF3852 BKO
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF008 JFK
AF254 SIN
AF928 LAD
AF394 EZE
AF1320 TLV
AF990 JNB
AF852 CAY
AF792 PTP
AF842 FDF
AF642 RUN
mercure f-wtcc
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:04 am

Wow this is getting quite big. They are cancelling high margin routes like IAD JFK NRT, I guess those are routes where there are multtiple daily flights at least.

I wonder how high a possibility there is that it will last beyond Sep 22.
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:42 am

This strike will end as planned on Sep.22 but further follow on action anticipated if company does not manage to address pilot concerns satisfactorily.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:04 pm

Wednesday statistics.

Planned flights: 820
Cancelled: 612

Top cancel airports
CDG - 187
ORY - 72
MRS - 34
TLS - 30
NCE - 27
BOD - 20
mercure f-wtcc
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 75):

to a point, but being that it is a JV I believe DL is enjoying the losses too.
 
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mercure1
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Posts: 4526
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:02 am

List of widebody fleet cancellations for Thursday Sep.18

AF444 GIG
AF456 GRU
AF636 IAH
AF066 LAX
AF012 JFK
AF192 BLR
AF342 YUL
AF322 BOG
AF226 DEL
AF682 ATL
AF218 BOM
AF830 PNR
AF1620 TLV
AF3832 LOS
AF724 NKC
AF514 ABV
AF934 TNR
AF741 PUJ
AF438 MEX
AF378 DTW
AF3884 DB
AF274 ICN
AF258 SGN
AF112 PVG
AF480 LIM
AF508 CAI
AF276 NRT
AF128 PEK
AF702 ABJ
AF356 YYZ
AF090 MIA
AF900 NSI
AF718 DKR
AF338 BOS
AF010 JFK
AF026 IAD
AF348 YUL
AF008 JFK
AF254 SIN
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF442 GIG
AF274 HND
AF990 JNB


Heaviest volume of longhaul cancels to date.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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Pellegrine
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:31 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 91):
Heaviest volume of longhaul cancels to date.

Glad I rebooked on my old stalwart UA, even though AF won't give me a refund ehhhh   .
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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mercure1
Topic Author
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:13 pm

So far heaviest days of cancels is Thursday.

Scheduled flights: 844
Cancelled: 634

Top cancel airports
CDG: 207
ORY: 72
TLS: 37
MRS: 33
NCE: 26
BOD: 20
mercure f-wtcc
 
andrej
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:09 pm

Trade union stated that they are ready to continue their strike for a second week. Bloomberg also reports that another pilot union is ready to strike indefinitely.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...nto-second-week-amid-showdown.html
 
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lightsaber
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 84):
At some point its probably cheaper/easier for AF to cancel everything that trying to run a crippled operation day after day.

Agreed.

At some point its also cheaper to sell the planes.   

This is obviously a *very* successful strike.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 85):
The basic problem here is that you are not viewing flying as what it is for the vast majority of people which is basically a commodity. Particularly when it comes to narrow body flying to just about anywhere. Yes, there are some business passengers and frequent flyers that will pay more to be treated better. But for a huge segment of the business you can't do without it really comes down to what it cost them to get from point A to point B in a time frame that works for what they want to do.

   People put an undue premium on *risk* too. So every strike results in ticket sales less than the competition (all else being equal).

But the staff need to focus on improving 'value added' for the customer.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
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mercure1
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Posts: 4526
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:49 pm

List of cancel widebody program flights Friday Sep.19


AF022 JFK
AF444 GIG
AF456 GRU
AF012 JFK
AF192 BLR
AF976 LBV
AF682 ATL
AF422 BOG
AF226 DEL
AF218 BOM
AF272 HND
AF3832 LOS
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF028 IAD
AF548 NIM
AF520 BSB
AF378 DTW
AF3884 DXB
AF264 ICN
AF292 KIX
AF3862 RUH
AF480 LIM
AF860 LFW
AF072 LAX
AF718 DKR
AF562 BEY
AF010 JFK
AF348 YUL
AF322 BOS
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF442 GIG
AF274 HND
AF704 ABJ
AF454 GRU
AF668 JIB

Quoting andrej (Reply 94):
Trade union stated that they are ready to continue their strike for a second week. Bloomberg also reports that another pilot union is ready to strike indefinitely.

Reported by media that company and pilots have resumed talks today, and that company has offered to make assurance that Transavia Europe would not serve any French markets, and there would be no French job losses at AF result of Transavia growth.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 95):
This is obviously a *very* successful strike.

Yes not seen such strong action since the 1990s at AF.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 391
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:15 pm

A great way to lose a lot of passengers forever.
Maybe they should continue this strike for another week.
The crews that are in hotels around the world like on French Polynesia and Reunion and arent coming back home now, must have a great vaction.
 
andrej
Posts: 1210
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:33 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 96):
Reported by media that company and pilots have resumed talks today, and that company has offered to make assurance that Transavia Europe would not serve any French markets, and there would be no French job losses at AF result of Transavia growth.

Those talks apparently 'failed' and the SPAF union extended strike by another 48 hours. Today AF plans to fly 45% scheduled flights, vs. 42% yesterday and 41Y on Wednesday.

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 97):
A great way to lose a lot of passengers forever.
Maybe they should continue this strike for another week.
The crews that are in hotels around the world like on French Polynesia and Reunion and arent coming back home now, must have a great vaction.

Lucky few and certainly they are on strike as well.   Speaking of passenger loss, this may be on temporary basis. People forget and if you give excellent price, they will come again. It may be harder to attract corporate fliers (an important source of revenue), but AF will try its best.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 96):
Yes not seen such strong action since the 1990s at AF.

Employees are not happy with the current state at AF, so they believe in their cause. On the other hand, French were always good at striking and protests.     

Cheers,

Andrej
 
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mercure1
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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 1

Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:55 pm

As of 5pm friday - 842 flights schedule, 609 cancelled.
mercure f-wtcc

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