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seansasLCY
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:57 am

It is being reported that Virgin Atlantic is to cut flights to Vancouver, Mumbai, Cape Town and Tokyo to focus on the partnership with Delta.

It will be interesting to see what routes are launched in place of these flights.
 
bunumuring
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:09 am

Cut frequencies or cut all flights? Very interesting...
Will the freed-up capacity be used for increasing transatlantic frequencies or new US destinations? Or other, more 'Delta-desired' destinations to feed Delta at LHR?
And the A380 order? Hmmmm... Were they ever mentioned as being planned for any of these rumored-to-be-cut routes?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
seansasLCY
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:13 am

All flights to those destinations will be cut.

According to @thehubroutes on twitter:
YVR ends October 14 and won't return
BOM ends 1st Feb 2015
NRT ends 1st Feb 2015
CPT ends 27th Apr 2015

VS will launch a new service to Detroit, a 5th daily JFK and a 2nd daily LAX service. Summer seasonal 2nd daily to Atlanta and San Francisco (5 weekly) plus 2nd winter daily to Miami.

He also reports that "Virgin Atlantic plans to take over DELTA's Manchester - Atlanta route while DELTA takes over Virgin's 1 of 2 daily London Heathrow - Newark".
 
SCL767
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:13 am

Quoting seansasLCY (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to see what routes are launched in place of these flights.

LHR-DTW, MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK, plus increased frequencies to ATL, JFK, LAX, MIA, and SFO:
http://www.traveldailymedia.com/2117...rops-four-services-to-focus-on-us/
 
behramjee
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:14 am

yup officially announced now but with JFK, LAX and DTW frequencies being increased/launched

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a63c00f0-3...f1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3CFJH0vmJ
 
MesaFlyGuy
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:31 am

Also interesting to note: Delta will be picking up one of their LHR-EWR flights as well.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
8herveg
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 2):
He also reports that "Virgin Atlantic plans to take over DELTA's Manchester - Atlanta route

So no more DL metal at MAN from next year? Quite a shame. But exciting to see VS boost their services. I wonder if VS could do LAX and/or SFO? Perhaps 3-4 times a week for each one?
 
LondonCity
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:36 am

It suggests that Virgin Atlantic can no longer compete on certain international routes. It is now a different market from the days when the airline first saw the light of day.
 
anstar
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 6):
So no more DL metal at MAN from next year?

DL will be operating MAN-JFK.

http://www.ttgdigital.com/news/air-t...satlantic-schedule/4692594.article

Quote:

The proposed changes include:

· A new daily service from London Heathrow to Detroit

· An additional daily service from London Heathrow to New York, JFK

· An additional daily service from London Heathrow to Los Angeles

· An additional daily service during the summer season from London Heathrow to Atlanta

· An additional summer seasonal service from London Heathrow to San Francisco flying five times a week

· An additional daily service during the winter season from London Heathrow to Miami

· A transfer of operations with Delta that will see Virgin Atlantic fly a daily service between Manchester and Atlanta and Delta fly one of Virgin Atlantic’s existing London Heathrow to Newark services

· Delta Air Lines will launch a new daily service between Manchester and New York JFK in Summer 2015


So it is an overall increase in flying.

ie
NRT > 2nd LAX
BOM > 5th JFK
CPT > 2nd MIA (Winter seasonal)
YVR (4 weekly) > 2nd ATL 5 x Weekly (Summer seasonal)
EWR > DTW

So the increase for VS is 5 weekly LHR-SFO summer seasonal and MAN-ATL year round.

And for DL it is MAN-JFK
 
anstar
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:43 am

I think its pretty clear that the ME3 are eating all the traffic going east. CPT was dropped by SAA and now VS as I believe EK are taking alot of the traffic now via DXB.
 
kiwiandrew

VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:50 am

The phrase "eggs in one basket" springs to mind. After these changes what proportion of their total network capacity will be devoted to the UK-US market?

I understand that the JV is crucial to their continued survival, but I can't help wondering whether it is a sound strategy to concentrate so much of their capacity in one, albeit very important, market.

On the other hand, I am not sure that they could have carried on as they were. It would be interesting to overlay their route map of, say, 5 years ago, with their proposed 2015 route structure.
 
8herveg
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:55 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 8):
· A transfer of operations with Delta that will see Virgin Atlantic fly a daily service between Manchester and Atlanta and Delta fly one of Virgin Atlantic’s existing London Heathrow to Newark services

· Delta Air Lines will launch a new daily service between Manchester and New York JFK in Summer 2015

How do/did they decide which metal to put on which route? Is there any gain in VS doing MAN-ATL instead of DL? Particuarly since DL have operated the route for so many years now and have probably built up quite a following of DL and Skyteam pax...
 
fcogafa
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:15 am

Maybe this is what Walsh meant when he said Virgin wouldn't exist in 5 years, it is just becoming an extension of Delta in all but name.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:16 am

as far as YVR is concerned, called it Nov 7, 2011.

VS Announces YVR (by YVRSpeedBird Nov 6 2011 in Civil Aviation)

reply 31.

Quote:

Prediction. The flight will return for 2013, but will be axed for 2014.

End Quote.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-09-03 04:17:53]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Murcielago4me
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:24 am

Considering the amount of direct and connecting flights operating LHR - BOM, I am not surprised to see this move. Apart from the DL partnership reason, I wonder if VS even managed to completely fill their A330s on their LHR-BOM route with competition like:
2 x Jet Airways (77Ws)
2 x British Airways (772 / 77W / 747)
1 x Air India (787)

So does this mean that the DL A330 that comes to BOM will operate as a codeshare flight with KLM and now VS from Feb 2015?
"Caution, Wake Turbulence"
 
anstar
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting murcielago4me (Reply 14):
So does this mean that the DL A330 that comes to BOM will operate as a codeshare flight with KLM and now VS from Feb 2015?

I'm guessing these moves make it more likely VS will look at Skyteam to shift their traffic going to India and Asia.
 
dalca
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:36 am

LHR-DTW suprises me a bit, i have always considered DTW to be a bit of a niche market
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
slinky09
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 15):
'm guessing these moves make it more likely VS will look at Skyteam to shift their traffic going to India and Asia.

Seems that joining SkyTeam looks more likely, since VS is now basicalyl Delta from London. It's a great shame to see it become so subsumed as a DL feeder operation rather than an attractive airline capable of making a global route network work. But the reality is that DL must be promising bums on seats from their flier pool and hubs, and VS has no choice but to chase higher yields over any other ambition.

I'm surprised Shanghai wasn't mentioned, and that after announcing a move from Narita to Haneda Tokyo gets dropped completely. I also understood BOM was doing well after its return but clearly not as well ...

VS must have fingers crossed that no event chokes North Atlantic demand like it has done in the past.
 
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cv990Coronado
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 9):
I think its pretty clear that the ME3 are eating all the traffic going east. CPT was dropped by SAA and now VS as I believe EK are taking alot of the traffic now via DXB.

Sadly yes, but BA seems to do OK on CPT. The ME3 are taking lots of traffic from CPT . QR will be going non stop to DOH soon and EK seem to be doing well. It's difficult to compete with the ME3's cost structure, tax regime and labour practices.

VS always stop their LHRCPT service at the end of April and start again at the end of October. So does that mean for certain that they won't re-commence again Oct 2015?

Delta seem to be taking a much more hands-on approach with their VS investment than SQ did. Not surprising really, maybe the tail will soon be wagging the dog.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
PIEAvantiP180
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:55 am

So will we see DL operate LAX-LHR year round or will it be winter 1 DL 2 VS and summer 3 VS daily flights?
 
Bongodog1964
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:01 pm

The "Atlantic" part of the name is looking more correct than it has done for many years, not much left now in the other direction.
 
IndianicWorld
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Huge changes.

Certainly a near complete reversal in strategy, but one that will likely give it more stability in its direction.
 
jetblue1965
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Wow their new non-NA network will be painfully tiny ... only left with LOS JNB DXB DEL HKG PVG ... The bare bones colonial links plus Shanghai ... I'm surprised LOS hasn't been suspended for ebola reasons.

This new airline is definitely "DL London" not "VS Atlantic". If i were living in London I would have very little incentive to stay loyal to virgin since there are so few places I can reach outside of the Americas.
 
1400mph
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:40 pm

Sensible move. Not sure VS can achieve 'critical mass' going east anymore as BA can from London.

Who cares where they fly as long as they make money and no jobs are lost.

Interesting that IAG is today the biggest riser on the FTSE 100 and amongst its peer airlines in Europe.
 
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bjwonline
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 23):
Who cares where they fly as long as they make money and no jobs are lost.

This is just the thing.. Jobs have been lost. Each flight to NRT and BOM had roughly 50% crew from Japan/India. These people will most likely now be out of work.
 
Thenoflyzone
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting dalca (Reply 16):
LHR-DTW suprises me a bit, i have always considered DTW to be a bit of a niche market
VS is taking over the summer only service that DL currently operates to Detroit and extending it to a year round service.

So only a winter increase really.

http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/us/en...e/latest-news/network-changes.html

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 18):
VS always stop their LHRCPT service at the end of April and start again at the end of October. So does that mean for certain that they won't re-commence again Oct 2015?

The article above clearly states they wont resume past this upcoming winter season.

[Edited 2014-09-03 06:28:05]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
AirbusA322
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:27 pm

How much longer can the Little Red operation continue. Flew 6 sectors in the past 2 weeks not a flight above 30% full.

Going off reports low loads seem the norm for little red not just luck my flights were dead empty, one flight had 20 pax!
 
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yellowtail
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
I understand that the JV is crucial to their continued survival, but I can't help wondering whether it is a sound strategy to concentrate so much of their capacity in one, albeit very important, market.

The DL feed to the VS flights at DTW, ATL etc should ensure success of these flights. MIA has a strong DL FF base.

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 22):
I'm surprised LOS hasn't been suspended for ebola reasons.

LOS prints money. It is going nowhere.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
jetwet1
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:39 pm

has VS changed their policy of having a higher fuel surcharge ex US than UK ?
 
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cv990Coronado
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:46 pm

@thenoflyzone

Many thanks, couldn't get into the original link. Yes this one says it all thanks. Now what to I do with my 800K miles if no more CPT flights? JNB I guess?

@yellowtail

Yep LOS does print money. But JNB not so much anymore. On the other hand SRB has a game lodge in South Africa so maybe JNB is safe.
SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
 
skipness1E
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting Airbusa322 (Reply 26):
Going off reports low loads seem the norm for little red not just luck my flights were dead empty, one flight had 20 pax!

It has improved markedly since launch though.
 
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yellowtail
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 30):
It has improved markedly since launch though.

And this time of year, loads are horrid everywhere.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
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usdcaguy
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting dalca (Reply 16):

LHR-DTW suprises me a bit, i have always considered DTW to be a bit of a niche

Yes, the destination DTW is a bit of a niche, but the multitude of DL connections from DTW make LHR-DTW a trunk route. Flying to the US is often about secondary markets as much as the ports of entry.
 
miaami
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 27):
MIA has a strong DL FF base.

That didn't seem to save MIA-LHR a few years back when DL operated it on their own metal.

[Edited 2014-09-03 07:50:21]
 
avek00
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:57 pm

EU legacy airlines have long wanted to become "Americans" to cut costs and boost efficiency. In the 2000s/2010s, America's airlines did the needful in restructuring so our side will be firmly in control of the eventual transatlantic consolidation.
Live life to the fullest.
 
jfk777
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 27):
he DL feed to the VS flights at DTW, ATL etc should ensure success of these flights. MIA has a strong DL FF base.

Virign has been in Miami for 30 years, it is their second US flight after Newark.

Is Virign giving up on Tokyo or are they going to Haneda ? NRT was their first Asian city.
 
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LAXintl
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:06 pm

Tokyo really surprises me, especially since UK was awarded daytime slots at Haneda that were to split with BA for a daily flight each, and VS had publicly said they would move over to HND along with further developing their ANA partnership.

For the 2nd LAX flight - nothing new really - just return of the service that has historically always operated.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jetblue1965
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
Is Virign giving up on Tokyo or are they going to Haneda ? NRT was their first Asian city.

Entirely giving up. Guess their hopes for HND totally fell through. Now that all their competitors are at HND-LHR, all of a sudden NRT became painfully uncompetitive.
 
anstar
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting bjwonline (Reply 24):
This is just the thing.. Jobs have been lost. Each flight to NRT and BOM had roughly 50% crew from Japan/India. These people will most likely now be out of work.

The Japanese crew (who are UK based) will be transferred over to the main operation if the wish.
Yes some overseas based staff will loose their roles, however it is an increase in flying from the UK so will be an increase in staff overall.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):

Is Virign giving up on Tokyo or are they going to Haneda ? NRT was their first Asian city.

They will be ending Japan completely in favour of the ANA code share to HND. I believe the market has never really recovered after the earthquake and tsunami.
 
Bongodog1964
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 34):

EU legacy airlines have long wanted to become "Americans" to cut costs and boost efficiency. In the 2000s/2010s, America's airlines did the needful in restructuring so our side will be firmly in control of the eventual transatlantic consolidation.

Whatever are you on about ? fine if you believe what you are typing, but don't try convincing the rest of us. Very few major EU legacies have needed to run from their creditors.
 
avek00
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 39):
Whatever are you on about ? fine if you believe what you are typing, but don't try convincing the rest of us. Very few major EU legacies have needed to run from their creditors.

European carriers have spoken publicly about wanting to engage in transatlantic mergers with USA legacies for years. Of course, there are still various regulatory regime hurdles that need to be worked out, so full mergers won't happen in the near-term. That said, the restructuring of the USA legacies through bankruptcies and mergers ensures that the USA side will be in the driver's seat -- a major shift from just a decade ago, when Euro carriers called the shots in the JVs, and would have been the leaders in any deeper cross-border cooperation.
Live life to the fullest.
 
dtw2hyd
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:16 pm

Good to see a new face at DTW. I suppose DL is preempting any BA's plans to return.

DL operates to T4, will this be to T3. Are there any plans to move together at LHR.
All posts are just opinions.
 
B-HOP
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:29 pm

Japan pullout is a total surpise, I would have thought it is a perfect route (move from NRT to KIX) for 789 and continue the Tokyo area with NH codeshare, Mumbai and Delhi, the schedules were all over the place, one leave morning, one afternoon, it never really connect well with US bound service, hope they are keeping HKG and PVG though through they are no longer in a strong position hardware and software wise. It looks like nothing but just DL UK now, I worry if there are sudden downturn in transatlantic and what would they do?
Live life to max!!!
 
threepoint
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):

You were only one year off. The service did return for the 2014 season, but has been cut from 2015 onwards.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Prost
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VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:41 pm

VS also stated they expect to have full year profitability. I can understand the angst of some European and UK posters that DL is asserting their power in a way that SQ never would, but VS was never going to have the slot portfolio in LHR that BA does. Don't get me wrong, British Airways had to scratch and claw their way to the position they currently enjoy at LHR, and they deserve every success they have: To the victor go the spoils.

So, what's left for VS? If it ends up being Atlanticcentric, or more specifically as some have posted, DeltaConnection with much better planes, then so be it. Apparently it will mean stability and profitability for their passengers and employees. I understand some of their customers amassed a lot of miles by flying to some of the Eastern and southern destinations, amd these customers will be lost. It's always unfortunate when a company loses valuable customers, but newer competitors are better able to serve these people.

Delta spent under $400 million for 49% in VS, and it appears they'll be making their money back in a fairly quick manner.
 
deltaflyertoo
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

For the 2nd LAX flight - nothing new really - just return of the service that has historically always operated.

I'm assuming that DL is keeping its flight that they previously announced a few months back? If not, this move would make total sense and indeed be no news item but if DL is keeping it then thats somewhat of a capacity increase for both the route in general but esp. for DL that is now the newer player on it.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:57 pm

The TATL market is one of the most if not the most lucrative markets out there. LHR in particular is a money maker. VS is making smart moves by switching to markets with better yields and more consistent yields versus fighting it out in places like India.

Yes VS is putting their eggs in DL's basket but that basket is looking pretty tasty these days. It is the best run and most profitable airline in the world at the moment. DL's $400m investment in VS was a bargain and the returns should be coming in already.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 43):
You were only one year off. The service did return for the 2014 season, but has been cut from 2015 onwards.

Still, not bad, considering service hadn't even started when I made the call.

Sometimes, just sometimes, its as if I know what I'm talking about !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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GCT64
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

VS Cuts Routes + Adds Routes

Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 30):
Quoting Airbusa322 (Reply 26):
Going off reports low loads seem the norm for little red not just luck my flights were dead empty, one flight had 20 pax!
It has improved markedly since launch though.

It depends a lot on your route:

From personal experience: EDI has been very full (80%-90%+) through July and August (no surprise - the Edinburgh Festival does that to all London flights). Best load factors since Little Red was launched.
ABZ always has low load factors (from observing boarding at LHR), but cabin crew have told me that some oil companies have corporate purchase agreements that make this route profitable (don't know if this is true).
Not sure about MAN but I suspect, from observation, it is not as busy as EDI.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 31):
And this time of year, loads are horrid everywhere.

???
Not what I have observed in the last three weeks on LHR-EDI, LHR-MUC, LHR-HKG and LHR-PVG - all have had very high load factors (PVG-LHR yesterday was 100% in Y & Y+)
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 46):
The TATL market is one of the most if not the most lucrative markets out there. LHR in particular is a money maker.

It also suffers a bit of overcapacity thanks to everyone adding too many frequencies to chase business travelers. Q2 has been a poor performer for all 3 legacies across the North Atlantic, while it's been reported that NYC-LHR has a bit of over-capacity (LF 78% JFK and 76% EWR for 2013 full year where the weighted average from all gateways is higher at 81% and median is roughly 82%, the new flights will only exacerbate the low load factors)

It's always great for consumers when airlines engage in capacity and fare wars, but it's quite detrimental to their own financials for the sake of holding onto unit market share.

At least they're living up to their name - nearly nothing left except Atlantic

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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos