Unresponsive Aircraft Headed For Cuba.

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:16 pm

This is a TBM-700 that was headed from ROC to APF. It has now been intercepted by F-15s.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...N/history/20140905/1215Z/KROC/KAPF

pliersinsight · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:18 pm

CNN is saying the windows are frosted over. Hopefully not another Payne Stewart scenario.....

pliersinsight · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:24 pm

NORAD jet fighters trail plane over Atlantic Ocean
By CNN Staff
updated 1:16 PM EDT, Fri September 5, 2014

(CNN) -- The U.S. military Thursday launched a pair of jet fighters to trail a small aircraft that was unresponsive over the Atlantic Ocean and headed towards Cuban airspace, NORAD said.
Two F-15s were flying with the plane east of Florida. The windows, according to a NORAD spokesman, were frosted and it was unknown how much fuel was left.
NORAD was in touch with Cuban authorities via the U.S. Coast Guard. The U.S. military jets will not enter Cuban airspace, a NORAD spokesman said.
The Socata TBM-700 light business and utility aircraft departed from Rochester, New York, with a flight plan to land in Naples, Florida, NORAD said. But the plane's occupants did not respond to communication attempts.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/05/us/norad-air-threat/index.html

KBUF · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:25 pm

News outlets are reporting that the pilot appears to be slumped over the controls. Definitely looks to be a loss of cabin pressure.

And what would happen once the plane enters Cuban airspace? Do the NORAD F-15's have to turn back?

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:25:45]

flymia · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting pliersinsight (Reply 1):
CNN is saying the windows are frosted over. Hopefully not another Payne Stewart scenario.....

Yep. This happened not long ago also with a Cirrus. Was not reported much on national news though. Guess it heading towards Cuba gives CNN something to talk about and hype it up for absolutely no reason whatsoever. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...tricted-airspace-article-1.1922569

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:29:54]

SuseJ772 · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:28 pm

Unfortunately, this is probably most definitely a Payne Stewart situation.

FedExFlyerPHL · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:29 pm

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A.../March/25/First-TBM-900s-delivered

Looks like it was the first TBM-900 delivered earlier this year.

KBUF · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:30 pm

Plane has officially entered Cuban airspace. NORAD F-15's have turned back:

NORAD & USNORTHCOM ‏@NoradNorthcom 1m
Unresponsive aircraft has entered Cuban airspace. #NORAD fighters have broken off trail.
http://twitter.com/NoradNorthcom/status/507943286301286400

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:34:52]

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:35 pm

The problem was noticed by the pilot while in the vicinity of INT. He was at FL280 and had asked for an immediate descent to FL180. ATC could only initially clear him to FL250 because of traffic. That's where he remains to this time. He later acknowledged a descent to FL200 but never descended below FL250. His last clearance was direct TAY VOR.

Here's the link to the file. Communications with the aircraft begin 2:25 into the file.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgso/ZTL-GSO-Sep-05-2014-1400Z.mp3

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:56:31]

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm

He certainly sounded hypoxic in his last transmissions.

pliersinsight · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting FedExFlyerPHL (Reply 6):

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A.../March/25/First-TBM-900s-delivered

Looks like it was the first TBM-900 delivered earlier this year.

Based on the registration for the N number.... the corporate registry address goes back to a building that houses Buckingham Properties, of which Mr. Glazer, who was mentioned in the AOPA article as the new owner, is the CEO. Very unfortunate. However, simply because he owns it doesn't mean he was flying it or even on board.

KBUF · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:39 pm

The plane is registered to Larry Glazer, a Rochester-area real estate developer:

Quote:
A Socata TBM-700 that is based out of the Greater Rochester International Airport is registered to a limited liability company that is housed at 259 Alexander St. in Rochester. That address is the home of Buckingham Properties, which is owned by developer Larry Glazer.

Attempts to reach Glazer on his cell phone were unsuccessful. A voicemail left on his phone was not immediately returned.

Glazer has development projects in Naples.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...ng-business-plane-naples/15132465/

Whether or not he is aboard is unknown.

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:39:57]

packcheer · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:39 pm

Where is 1730 nm from rochester? How far can it fly?

*Linked article says that's max range

flymia · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 8):
The problem was noticed by the pilot while in the vicinity of KINT. He was at FL280 and had asked for an immediate descent to FL180. ATC could only initially clear him to FL250 because of traffic.

If there is an issue, screw ATC and 180. Declare an emergency and get down to 10,000. Odd if the pilot knew something was wrong.

Cubsrule · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting packcheer (Reply 12):
Where is 1730 nm from rochester? How far can it fly?

A couple of hundred miles south of Jamaica in open water.

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):

If there is an issue, screw ATC and 180. Declare an emergency and get down to 10,000. Odd if the pilot knew something was wrong.

That's certainly the thing to do. However, he was likely highly hypoxic by that time and people don't think very clearly under those conditions.

qwerty · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:44 pm

Declare Emergency. That's the protocol.

tjwgrr · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting packcheer (Reply 12):
Where is 1730 nm from rochester? How far can it fly?

readytotaxi · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:47 pm

So sad to watch this play out.

Tigerguy · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:51 pm

Based on the flight path and a position over southeastern Cuba, I'd guess there's 100-200 miles to go before it runs out of fuel...

tjwgrr · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:52 pm

Very sad.

N900KN:

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Iain Marshall

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Photo © Carlos Aleman - SJUAP

.
.
Does Jamaica have any aircraft capable of intercept? Or I wonder if the USAF will re-intercept after clearing Cuban airspace?

[Edited 2014-09-05 10:57:00]

RDUDDJI · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Our thoughts and prayers are with the pilot(s), pax, and their families.

Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 8):
The problem was noticed by the pilot while in the vicinity of KINT. He was at FL280 and had asked for an immediate descent to FL180. ATC could only initially clear him to FL250 because of traffic. That's where he remains to this time. He later acknowledged a descent to FL200 but never descended below FL250. His last clearance was direct TAY VOR.

Man, that's really unfortunate. I'm trying to make out what they say at 4:18ish. They say we need to descend down to 180, we've got an ......... with the plane. Sounds like "indication ...."

It's too early to Monday morning QB, but perhaps he should have immediately declared an emergency when they discovered the issue. You could tell by the urgency in his voice in the above Tx and the subsequent Tx, that they really wanted to get down to FL180.

P.S.: For those who don't know: INT, is Smith-Reynolds airport in Winston-Salem, NC (near GSO).

KBUF · Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:57 pm

According to the FAA, the aircraft only has about 20 minutes worth of fuel left.

citationjet · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:02 pm

He is just north of Jamaica.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N900KN

flymia · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 20):
Does Jamaica have any aircraft capable of intercept? Or I wonder if the USAF will re-intercept after clearing Cuban airspace?

USAF is circling around Cuba and will intercept if it gets that far.

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 19):

Based on the flight path and a position over southeastern Cuba, I'd guess there's 100-200 miles to go before it runs out of fuel...

Depending if they had a full fuel load. Usually if the plane was not full with passengers many pilots/owners of planes like this will just take full fuel tanks as a safety measure.

Beefmoney · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:06 pm

Once the engine fails we should see a speed decrease until it slows to the point where the autopilot can no longer maintain altitude, then the autopilot will disconnect and we should see a descent that may or may not be stable or straight ahead.

D L X · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Tigerguy (Reply 19):

Based on the flight path and a position over southeastern Cuba, I'd guess there's 100-200 miles to go before it runs out of fuel...

When the plane descends due to fuel starvation, can a pilot awaken and at least glide and ditch the plane?

Beefmoney · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 26):
When the plane descends due to fuel starvation, can a pilot awaken and at least glide and ditch the plane?

The pilot has been unconscious for too long at this point. He's long past the point of permanent brain damage due to oxygen starvation. He won't regain consciousness as it descends.

GE9X · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 26):

If the pilot suffered hypoxia due to cabin depressurization over NC as suggested, he has been dead for a while.

D L X · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:14 pm

Quoting Beefmoney (Reply 27):
The pilot has been unconscious for too long at this point. He's long past the point of permanent brain damage due to oxygen starvation. He won't regain consciousness as it descends.

Quoting GE9X (Reply 28):
If the pilot suffered hypoxia due to cabin depressurization over NC as suggested, he has been dead for a while.

What a sad ending.

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:16 pm

The descent has started.

jetblueguy22 · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 26):
When the plane descends due to fuel starvation, can a pilot awaken and at least glide and ditch the plane?

Chances are no. At FL280 you only have 3 to 5 minutes of consciousness and you'll most likely die a few minutes after that. If these guys are still alive they probably have horrible brain issues. Even if they did regain consciousness chances are they will be so disorientented they wouldn't know what is going on before impacting the ground.
Pat

oflanigan · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Anyone listening to Jamaican ATC? Are there any attempt to intercept or raise this guy.

kq747 · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:21 pm

CNN as usual making up stuff... they looked at flightaware and saw the descent that the pilot requested from FL 280 and was given to FL 250 and said that "the plane dropped." SMH

runningonempty · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:22 pm

It looks like something just happened. I don't know how accurate flight aware is but it looks like the speed altitude and heading all changed.

washingtonflyer · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:23 pm

Does the Jamaican defense force have anything fast enough to intercept and keep up?

evanm · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:23 pm

Looks like it's gone. Tragic.

802flyguy · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:23 pm

Saturation repetitive cable news coverage. Including the standard stupid comments from "Scary Mary" Sciavo...

When I see how badly the press covers aviation matters, it makes me wonder about its coverage of topics about which I know nothing. Is is just as poor?

Shades of Helios flight 522 and Payne Stewart. Also reminds me the frightening audio of the Kalita cargo flight with the hypoxic pilot who very lucky to descend and land safely.

[Edited 2014-09-05 11:26:41]

JDFLYVC10 · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:25 pm

Sad... It's Gone...

oflanigan · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:25 pm

Flight radar 24 shows airspeed dropping

Thunderboltdrgn · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting evanm (Reply 36):
Looks like it's gone. Tragic.

Still show up on fr24: http://www.flightradar24.com/N900KN/440c4fb
almost at the N-E tip of Jamaica.

*edit just vanished from FR24 doing about 150 knots at FL250.

[Edited 2014-09-05 11:27:52]

RDUDDJI · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:27 pm

Quoting kq747 (Reply 33):
CNN as usual making up stuff... they looked at flightaware and saw the descent that the pilot requested from FL 280 and was given to FL 250 and said that "the plane dropped." SMH

Wolf Blitzer knows nothing about aviation. I thought CNN would have realized it after his poor coverage of the OS incident at SFO and MH370.

apfpilot · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:27 pm

Quoting Beefmoney (Reply 25):
Once the engine fails we should see a speed decrease until it slows to the point where the autopilot can no longer maintain altitude, then the autopilot will disconnect and we should see a descent that may or may not be stable or straight ahead.

It doesn't look like the GFC-710 in the TBM 900 has it but the GFC-700 in the Cirrus perspective has flight envelope protection. If the aircraft starts to descend i.e. after an engine failure and gets near Vne it will pitch the nose up to keep it from becoming a missile. It will also keep the wings level if the aircraft banks due to a fuel imbalance in a hypoxia situation.

oflanigan · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:28 pm

Track dropped north of Jamaica. Very sad result

braniff722 · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:29 pm

Yep, weird watching FlightAware live with this flight all the way to the end. Puts things in a real perspective. So, we in agreement it's just northeast of the island?

BigSaabowski · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:30 pm

The last valid radar ping from Miami was at 1811:22z. FL224, 153 KTS.
Coordinates 18.5086 -76.4242

[Edited 2014-09-05 11:32:09]

Armodeen · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:33 pm

There is no chance of them being alive on board, it's been far too long at low atmospheric oxygen levels

Miami · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:34 pm

It’s possible the plot is incapacitated from hypoxia.

From CNN: F-15 pilots tracking the unresponsive plane could see, before the small plane's windows frosted, a pilot slumped over, a NORAD official said. The official said one or two other people are believed to be on board, though the number has not been confirmed.

Just checked Flight Radar. The plane is not showing up anymore. It appears to have crashed off the coast of Jamaica. RIP to the people on board.

Thunderboltdrgn · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting braniff722 (Reply 44):
So, we in agreement it's just northeast of the island?

Yeah just north-north east of the N-E tip of Jamaica.

qwerty · Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:36 pm

Sad.

Not to make light of the tragedy, thanks for the quick find of the liveatc, BigSaabowski.

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