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ERJ170
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm

Per the Triangle Business Journal, RDU is working diligently and expects FRA to be added as a destination by 2016. It's still a ways a way but sounds like good news... I"m pretty sure they are also working on Delta to actually start the Paris flight.. I'm wondering who would be most likely to do FRA? LH doesn't have the right size aircraft for the market (maybe a 330 but doubtful..) and Condor is more leisure instead of the business flight RDU is looking for.. Hmmmm

the tidbits:

“We have about 1.5 million people who go back and forth between those destinations (i.e. FRA and CDG),” says Teresa Damiano..... The pitch includes the fact that the area is growing twice as fast as the national average, and that the foreign-born national population growth is three times the growth of the national average...... But there’s a window of opportunity the team has to address the airlines and pitch the flight. “It’s usually spring to fall and early winter. We’re always working in that window to get them to look at us. We would usually hear back about six months from the time that window closes, so around the first of the year,” says Damiano.

Also interesting for a different article linked on the one above is that the other destinations being pitched are AUS, MCI, MSY, and SEA... personally, I could see B6 on AUS, DL on MCI, MSY, and SEA.. I don't forsee WN doing much, nor AA/UA.. F9 has lost momentum and that's all the airlines at RDU.. no Spirit, no Virgin America, no Allegient, no Alaska.. no Cape Air.. so that's about how I see it...
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Bobloblaw
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
personally, I could see B6 on AUS, DL on MCI, MSY, and SEA.

Why would DL be interested in MCI or MSY? I think AS would might like SEA. WN would be the strongest on AUS by far with a continuing flight to SAN.
 
CALMSP
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):

considering JV partnerships, it could be a UA 787 for all we know.
 
RL757PVD
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:18 pm

Sounds to me like another round of Condor expansion

PVD/PDX in 2015, perhaps RDU and something like MSY in 2016?
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Why would DL be interested in MCI or MSY?

DL flew RDU-MSY before with 2X daily ERJ's. "IF" they brought it back, I'd imagine it'd be something like a daily CR7 or CR9. There's enough O&D for that. Probably not enough for a WN 737 at this point.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
Delta would be interested in MCI, MSY, and SEA because of the business market..

MCI and MSY are maybes on the CRJ-700 or -900. But SEA I don't see coming on Delta metal.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
AUS for B6, I just thought B6 would have the higher interest but I could be wrong..

I don't see anybody but WN being interested in the AUS route, if anybody at all.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
Either way, I think a FRA flight isn't if but when.. so far, the flights that RDU has pushed for have been great routes.. LAX, SFO.. but I don't have numbers to support it..

I agree that FRA is coming, but my guess would be Condor.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
WN hasn't really brought much to RDU in several years and has been pushing more towards their "connecting" cities than adding a lot of nonstops from outlier markets..

Hence why I don't see RDU-AUS or RDU-MSY coming to fruition. And RDU-MCI is a BIG maybe.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Nowhere in the article to I see "expects", I see "working-on" and "could" instead which have a different meaning and connotation.

I agree. I wouldn't get too excited about these routes until we see more concrete evidence that they are coming. Just my to cents.
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USAirALB
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:44 pm

If RDU were to get an FRA flight-it would have to be on Condor...no one else could or would be interested in serving the market.
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ERJ170
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):
no one else could or would be interested in serving the market.

Nice... and you say this because??? Nevermind..


Well, only time will tell and when it comes to fruition.. it should be interested.. but 2016 is a ways away so.. And remember, I'm not proposing any of these destinations.. just posting what other articles had stated.. I would love all these routes to come forward and think they could work from a business and leisure point of view.. but whatever comes in the future would be great for the airport so.. there ya go..
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MesaFlyGuy
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RDU Pushing For FRA or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
Nice... and you say this because??? Nevermind..

He says it because LH doesn't have a plane small enough and nobody else has a hub (or even a large-enough operation) on either end to support the flight besides Condor.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:18 pm

I also wonder why B6 doesnt try RDU-AUS

As for Europe...RDU better be careful. And for a city their size, they should know that.

They could cannibalize the one flight to Europe they have.
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:31 pm

Personally, I'd love to see it, but the only realistic option I see is the RDU-CDG that DL once announced but never started. Perhaps a summer seasonal CDG flight could work.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
They could cannibalize the one flight to Europe they have.

I would agree with that.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
If RDU were to get an FRA flight-it would have to be on Condor...no one else could or would be interested in serving the market.

Hating isn't nice.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 8):
and nobody else has a hub (or even a large-enough operation) on either end to support the flight besides Condor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Condor doesn't follow the hub and spoke model. It simply uses FRA as a base of operations. If that's the case, then i fail to see a large enough O&D between RDU and FRA to justify the flight.

Now, Condor does interline with LH, LX, LO, OS and that might help fill the planes, but by no means will that make it a profitable route.

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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
Per the Triangle Business Journal,

The Triangle Business Journal throws out 50-100 stories a day hopes one will stick. It's click bait for the internet addicted business poser. However, my dislike of TBJ aside...

... RDU to anywhere else in Europe seems ridiculous except...

UA has done the smart thing and started offering SFO-RDU. Maybe *A will build a customer base here. But, remember, it hasn't been very long ago that UA mainline left RDU altogether. There are good reasons for RDU-Germany ( NCSU, Bayer, BASF) so RDU-FRA seems reasonable. but *A isn't that strong here.

DL is building a good base. Could be RDU to Skyteam hub would work. For some reason I think AMS would work better than CDG. Somehow, RDU to Europe with DL "feels" like non-business travel.


I expect AA combined with US should give oneworld the big advantage in the Triangle. And It think that is a pretty big hurdle for RDU-anywhereelse-in-Europe to overcome.

Maybe. I hope. I would love to see it.

[Edited 2014-09-05 17:35:32]
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):

Correct, there's no guarantee that the interlines will make the route successful, but seeing as they do offer connections through FRA, but it's the next best thing at FRA after LH.
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KD5MDK
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:07 am

If AA ever decides that the new contracts mean some P2P routes are plausible that don't touch on a hub, RDU-AUS seems not impossible for a CR7 or CR9. However, I'm sure AUS-MIA would be long before that and connecting service over CLT or DFW should be pretty easy.
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:01 am

I love RDU. Great city and wonderful airport. But I don't think they can support a 2nd flight. Do you want FRA and risk LHR being pulled? The market certainly can't support LHR, FRA and CDG. It will stretch demand too thin and the loands will be so bad that there would be the risk of losing all 3 flights. Maybe experiment with a 757 to CDG and see if the market can support the additional seats on the smaller jet. I just don't think it is doable. Lets cross our fingers. I'd love to see LH flying RDU-FRA.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:48 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7):
Nice... and you say this because??? Nevermind..

I don't know why this was taken so out of context.

No other carrier currently has the means or the right type of aircraft to fly the route.

-LH could not fly the route, as the route would most likely need a 757/767/787 to be successful, so they are out of the picture.
-DL does not have onward feed in FRA to serve RDU-FRA, they do not even fly MSP-FRA.
-UA doesn't have feed in RDU, and has no other TATL routes outside of their major hubs. CLE-FRA/LHR would come before RDU-FRA on UA.
-The new AA no longer has a partner in FRA, and offers daily service to Germany 150 miles south in CLT.

Who else does that leave?

The thing about RDU-CDG that confuses me is that DL is more than capable of launching RDU-CDG today...which probably says something about the local market.

I have said this before, and it is slightly off topic, most people from Raleigh have weird, or strong feelings against Charlotte for some reason. I fail to understand why. I have heard so many things "Charlotte has a bigger airport...Charlotte has more major sports...Charlotte has an IKEA...Charlotte has this, Charlotte has that, why doesn't Raleigh have this?". This spreads over for air travel as well, I know a couple of people who would prefer to fly say RDU-ATL-SEA or RDU-MIA-SJU just to avoid flying through Charlotte because it is Charlotte.

Raleigh is a great town. But Charlotte and Raleigh are vastly, vastly different places. I fail to see why they are so often compared.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
The thing about RDU-CDG that confuses me is that DL is more than capable of launching RDU-CDG today...which probably says something about the local market.

They even announced this route a few years ago, and pulled the route before it even started, presumably due to lack of interest.

It's a well-known secret that the LHR flight is heavily subsidized by Glaxo, and probably makes money just on the basis of cargo alone. Can't we assume that any CDG or FRA flight would need a similar arrangement? And similarly, because LHR is subsidized, would adding a CDG or FRA flight really endanger the LHR flight?

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
most people from Raleigh have weird, or strong feelings against Charlotte for some reason

Classic sibling rivalry! The perfect analogy is that Charlotte is Raleigh's big brother. That's why it annoys us in Raleigh when we see those annoying "Charlotte's got a lot!" ads on our tv stations. We know already!
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 12):
DL is building a good base. Could be RDU to Skyteam hub would work. For some reason I think AMS would work better than CDG. Somehow, RDU to Europe with DL "feels" like non-business travel.

CDG would be better because it provides more connections to India. The triangle has a significant amount of traffic to/from India, both VFR and business, and the current BA flight does not allow for westbound connections from most Indian flights. RDU needs a flight that connects to Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad which the current BA flight doesn't do. FRA could also fill this gap but I think DL/SkyTeam have a bigger FF base in RDU than *A.
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:08 pm

I would love to see RDU-FRA and to me it seems more likely than -CDG. There certainly is more O&D feed at FRA but still as you guys have already well discussed, we have the problem in terms of carrier.

But didn't LH CEO Carsten Spohr say something about LHs new long haul LCC would be looking at 767-sized airplanes? Maybe they could use them for RDU, just my 2 cents though
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 12):
There are good reasons for RDU-Germany ( NCSU, Bayer, BASF) so RDU-FRA seems reasonable. but *A isn't that strong here.

BASF is in Charlotte (much bigger operation), not Raleigh.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:53 pm

BASF is indeed in RTP and RTP is their Global Plant Sciences HQ......And they are expanding.. CLT employees = 718 while RTP employees = 780...

[Edited 2014-09-06 11:03:01]
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
I know a couple of people who would prefer to fly say RDU-ATL-SEA or RDU-MIA-SJU just to avoid flying through Charlotte because it is Charlotte.

Well, I don't know anyone who avoids Charlotte simply because it is Charlotte. However, I avoid going to RDU-CTL-XXX and going through the hassle of boarding only to fly 30 mins and wait around and get to queue up again.


It will be interesting to see if US CLT-FRA lasts. That could key to RDU-Germany. I don't know how well LH will continue to do CLT-MUC w/US not being *A. Seems like that would be a drag on premium traffic.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:55 pm

Another important company might be Freudenberg, they have one of their North American offices in the Research Triangle Park, their headquarters in Germany is at Weinheim, just about 50km/30mi south of FRA

considering the end of cooperation between LH and US I could also imagine for LH to downsize their MUC-CLT rotation to one of their low-density-high-number-of-premium-seats A330s year-round (They fly this route on an A346 quite often) and send another one of these to RDU from FRA

Some of those mentioned Airbusses are configured F8 C48 Y161 and therefore just seat about 30 more than some of UA or US TATL 757s
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:23 pm

And if AA/US did decided they didn't want to serve RDU-LHR, it would be a great route for a BA 788.

 
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USAirALB
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 22):
It will be interesting to see if US CLT-FRA lasts. That could key to RDU-Germany. I don't know how well LH will continue to do CLT-MUC w/US not being *A. Seems like that would be a drag on premium traffic.

CLT-FRA has been flown since the early 1990s. The route isn't going anywhere, and there is enough O/D on the route to make the flight work even without feed from the CLT hub.

LH has "came out" per say to the CLT community three times within the last year saying that they are committed to CLT and will still interline with AA.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 25):
CLT-FRA has been flown since the early 1990s.

But by a completely different airline network then you have today. Today's AA will have to FRA: 2 flights a day from PHL and 1 from CLT and 0 from JFK 0 from ORD, maybe that will stay the same.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 25):
LH has "came out" per say to the CLT community three times within the last year

Airlines and their promises. That aside, US drops CLT-FRA and LH drops MUC-CLT. LH starts FRA-CLT using something with less capacity than a 340-600.


I don't think that CLT/RDU to Germany is a zero sum game between CLT and RDU. But I don't see a capacity increase to North Carolina to/from Germany.
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USAirALB
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 26):
But by a completely different airline network then you have today. Today's AA will have to FRA: 2 flights a day from PHL and 1 from CLT and 0 from JFK 0 from ORD, maybe that will stay the same.

PHL and CLT are both flown one daily in the off season. AA also flies DFW-FRA.

Currently, CLT has an extra FRA flight on Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday which lasts until October 1st.

AA is not dropping CLT-FRA. I know that for a fact.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 26):
Airlines and their promises.

Of course, and I should have reiterated that when I made the original post. LH said they were committed to the PDX market too, and look what happened.
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:25 am

I think Raleigh is very well served right now with their LHR flight and definitely gives them a boost up over most cities their size. I can't see LHR and another year-round TATL route being served in a sustainable way, perhaps CDG on a season basis.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
I have said this before, and it is slightly off topic, most people from Raleigh have weird, or strong feelings against Charlotte for some reason. I fail to understand why.

  Charlotte was never part of this discussion until you brought it up, I fail to see how it's relevant.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):
The thing about RDU-CDG that confuses me is that DL is more than capable of launching RDU-CDG today...which probably says something about the local market.

I don't think it's a secret that DL would love to have AA's contact/subsidy/whatever to Europe, I think DL's initial motivation was to try and seduce Raleigh's business community. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed as the TATL market from Raleigh isn't particularly large enough to vigorously duel over.
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 28):

I think Raleigh is very well served right now with their LHR flight and definitely gives them a boost up over most cities their size. I can't see LHR and another year-round TATL route being served in a sustainable way, perhaps CDG on a season basis.

Not as if LHR would be sustainable without incentives from local companies (primarily Glaxo). If another flight was similarly supported, it would be sustainable.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:27 am

Let's just be clear here:

LHR has a subsidy but it hasn't been used in years...
FRA has a subsidy already set aside for it if needed...
CDG has a subsidy already set aside for it if needed..

But what I noticed is that most other locals that is seeking TATL flights get "oh, it should have this and this cause it has X million people and adding in supporting areas can fill 5 planes".... But anytime it's RDU, which has decent population of about 2Mil in the immediate surrounding area and, more importantly, has a 50/50 business/leisure pax.. It can't happen without a subsidy...

I would think having a destination heavily business oriented would be a lot better than a destination leisure oriented... It may have have a large number of Fortune 500 businesses, but it has a lot of businesses that send/receive employees and consultants to/from many, many different places.

Not that I'm getting sensitive, but  
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):
I would think having a destination heavily business oriented would be a lot better than a destination leisure oriented...

And yet, BA opened AUS, which is a very trendy tourist destination with an event (the Formula 1 race) that draws more international tourists than some peer cities likely draw all year. That probably says something.
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cessna2
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:05 pm

I could see either CDG or AMS being added in the future. The international market is vastly under estimated consistently here on Anet. Is LHR subsidized. Yes. However it hardly taps into the money pot with the excepting of January and February because the route has matured over the past 20 years. Its average LF is around 80-82%. Not blowing it out of the water but certainly better than some of you seem to think.

Top 5 international destinations from RDU are

London
Paris
Rome
Frankfurt
Dublin

For O&D and connecting opportunities CDG would make the most sense. That would allow for connections to India and Africa. FWIW I have heard that RDU carried 10% of all African traffic for DL last year.
 
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 32):
FWIW I have heard that RDU carried 10% of all African traffic for DL last year.

What? 10% of all passengers to Africa on DL originated at RDU? That seems extraordinary.
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
And yet, BA opened AUS, which is a very trendy tourist destination with an event (the Formula 1 race) that draws more international tourists than some peer cities likely draw all year.

That's not cause and effect. A Formal 1 race can't fill an airplane day in day out. But, Austin, I'm sure does draw more VFR traffic then Raleigh/Durham/ChapelHill. (SXSW for example), but the RDU area is learning. Hopscotch music festival just finished its, what, 5th year, and has gone form "that thing my neighbor help start" to " huge event covered by NYT, NPR etc.." in that time. And, oh yeah, there is college basketball (and real b-b-que). There are good reasons for international VFR traffic to RDU. And that will improve, as the universities here are incubators for this sort of thing. Raleigh/Durham, Chapel Hill has a young mobile population.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):
But anytime it's RDU, which has decent population of about 2Mil

...

I agree completely.

LHR is probably a money maker w/o subsidizes (no matter the form). We have 3 U.S. based airlines that could start additional RDU-Europe at anytime with little start up cost. What keeps them from starting, waiting for a hand out, I suspect. It is a perfect place for 788 (763, 332/3) flights, airframe availability could be an issue.

But to think that RDU, with three major research universities, and plenty of international business, both keep the front and back of the cain reasonably full, can't support a second Europe non-stop is foolish.

I wonder if the growth of international VFR passengers will send the International LCCs to the US major markets. That will place downward pressure on yields in those markets. International flights in markets like RDU could become more attractive for the big 3 network carries for this reason. The sooner they start, the better their market share will be.
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AWACSooner
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:24 pm

I'm all for RDU-DUS...it'd make it much easier for me to go back and catch a few Canes games each season!  
 
bjorn14
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:46 pm

A 319NEO (range 4800mi) could do RDU-FRA @ 4377mi.   
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fxramper
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:43 pm

Why is RDU going to grow internationally when AA wants to grow CLT? RDU isn't going to happen anytime soon.
 
KD5MDK
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:51 pm

Because AA isn't the only airline in the market.
 
dank
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 34):
I agree completely.

LHR is probably a money maker w/o subsidizes (no matter the form). We have 3 U.S. based airlines that could start additional RDU-Europe at anytime with little start up cost. What keeps them from starting, waiting for a hand out, I suspect. It is a perfect place for 788 (763, 332/3) flights, airframe availability could be an issue.

I've never been on the London flight from RDU without it being basically 30-50% full in economy. It only stays because J is full. From what I understand, economy gets a decent amount of low yield transfer passengers that American routes through it.
 
airbazar
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):

I would think having a destination heavily business oriented would be a lot better than a destination leisure oriented... It may have have a large number of Fortune 500 businesses, but it has a lot of businesses that send/receive employees and consultants to/from many, many different places.
Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 34):
What keeps them from starting, waiting for a hand out, I suspect.

The same thing that has kept them from starting routes from BOS, or cutting route from BOS. Generally speaking American carriers are very averse to starting international routes outside of their hubs. The other problem is that RDU-CDG/FRA is just outside of the 752 range which would be an ideal aircraft on this route, operated by a U.S. carrier. I think the best chance would be LH with an A333, and an AF A332 as a long shot second possibility.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:32 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
an AF A332 as a long shot second possibility.

I think it's more likely that CDG would be operated with a 76W. Thanks to the JV, it doesn't matter which airline's metal operates the route, which helps it's chances in this case.
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ncflyer
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:55 pm

I wonder how common it is for Triangle-ites to drive to CLT for better international options and to avoid the lousy 30 minute flight, risk of delays etc. I know I've said on other forums, as a Clevelander, I've driven to DTW for international connections, it's 3 hours from here but WELL worth it.

So if that is common 1) RDU international would be understated 2) Yep, absolutely cannibalization of CLT traffic.
 
dank
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 42):

I wonder how common it is for Triangle-ites to drive to CLT for better international options and to avoid the lousy 30 minute flight, risk of delays etc. I know I've said on other forums, as a Clevelander, I've driven to DTW for international connections, it's 3 hours from here but WELL worth it.

So if that is common 1) RDU international would be understated 2) Yep, absolutely cannibalization of CLT traffic.

More likely to connect at a bigger international airport than to either fly to connect at CLT or drive to CLT. Pretty much any place in the NE (PHL, EWR, JFK, BOS) or ATL are fair game.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 34):
That's not cause and effect.

I don't disagree with you, but it pretty well demonstrates that ERJ170 is wrong. In most cases, unless we are talking about a Privatair-type operation, balance between business and leisure is good. Business for the front few cabins, and leisure for the back.
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ERJ170
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:05 am

I'm not wrong... Business oriented is favorable to leisure. If you can fill a plane to leisure destinations, good... But if you can fill it to business destination, even better.. Because a business destination is gonna be charging more money than a leisure... And leisure is more about quantity...

But, comme ci comme ca... I'm not gonna argue about it... I'm just hopeful something will come to fruition...
Aiming High and going far..
 
Cubsrule
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 45):
But if you can fill it to business destination, even better.. Because a business destination is gonna be charging more money than a leisure... And leisure is more about quantity...

RDU cannot fill an airplane to any European city with business passengers. Note the unimpressive Y loads seen on AA 173/174.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flyguy89
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:52 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):
But what I noticed is that most other locals that is seeking TATL flights get "oh, it should have this and this cause it has X million people and adding in supporting areas can fill 5 planes".... But anytime it's RDU, which has decent population of about 2Mil in the immediate surrounding area and, more importantly, has a 50/50 business/leisure pax.. It can't happen without a subsidy...

Because the main difference is that Raleigh already has a nonstop TATL flight. Most of the people you're referencing are trying to build the case that their city can even support just one European route. As I said, Raleigh is very well served with its LHR flight, another TATL flight on top of the existing LHR service would absolutely require a subsidy.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 32):
Top 5 international destinations from RDU are

London
Paris
Rome
Frankfurt
Dublin


Actually, if the Brookings Institution is to be believed, Raleigh's top 5 international destinations are Toronto, London, Cancun, Mexico City and Frankfurt. Albeit the numbers are a from 2011, I can't imagine that in the span of three years all of Raleigh's top international destinations are suddenly in Europe.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 34):
But to think that RDU, with three major research universities, and plenty of international business, both keep the front and back of the cain reasonably full, can't support a second Europe non-stop is foolish.

If it's really THAT clear and, on top of what you say, a subsidy is even available, why has no one stepped in? Let's be clear here, there's no question that Raleigh can sustainably support a TATL flight (and is); however, RDU-LHR isn't exactly bursting at the seems with passengers.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 34):
And, oh yeah, there is college basketball (and real b-b-que).

Nothing unique to Raleigh. And American college basketball is of inconsequential interest to Europeans.
 
phlwok
Posts: 453
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 42):
I wonder how common it is for Triangle-ites to drive to CLT for better international options and to avoid the lousy 30 minute flight, risk of delays etc.

I've done that route maybe three dozen times, and it's not bad. All to mostly mainline/large RJ depending on day of week and time of year, and while you're always introducing the risk of delay as you increase the number of flights on your itinerary, RDU-CLT is not a particularly delay prone route compared to others. Flights have always been pretty full when I've taken them. It's about a 2.5 hour drive, which is enough to be annoying and make people fly, particularly those who fly a lot.
 
MAH4546
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RE: RDU Pushing For FRA Or CDG Flight By 2016

Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:48 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40):
The other problem is that RDU-CDG/FRA is just outside of the 752 range which would be an ideal aircraft on this route, operated by a U.S. carrier

RDUCDG is within the range of a 757. Delta announced Raleigh-Paris service a few years ago. It never launched, but it was going to be on a 757. It is certainly on the edge of the range and not easy in eastbound in the winter, but possible.

[Edited 2014-09-07 23:50:00]
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