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EA CO AS
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 49):
Does AS have some data that prove this point?

Yes, and that's why the decision was finally made to make in-seat power a priority.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
737tdi
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
Yes, and that's why the decision was finally made to make in-seat power a priority.

As I stated above, I believe airlines are going to have some major trouble in the future with power ports. As a mech. I know that wiring on aircraft has become a contentious inspection point. While wiring in the subfloor and ceiling are not near as subject to damage, in seat power ports are very subject to damage. Be it from passengers, cleaners or just general wear and tear. I can tell you the Grimes Egress lighting tracks were nothing but a huge PIA for maintenance. This is very low voltage/low amperage system but ended up going the way of the dodo bird. In seat power will not be so simple, I do not know the specifics of what amount of power each seat row will need/use. I can say it will have to be maintained per the new EWIS program and this program is not an option. Dirt, grime, fluids, rubbing, improper routing, general condition and detailed condition are all no go in the new inspection system. As a mech. we are now required to do a detailed visual inspection on all electrical systems we access for maintenance and we sign for such per the MM, SRM and WDM. Just a thought on wiring coming through the floor into any cabin area, it is extremely subject to damage. JMO.


It is not so much of a problem on aircraft that do few turns but on high frequency airlines it will become a problem.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:32 am

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 47):
o the $1B was roughly what SWA would get from bag fees, were they to charge for them

Is the $1B that WN earns from people choosing them for no-bag-fees "revenue" or "profit"? I ask because if they are gaining $1B in "revenue" versus "$1B in bag fees", I'd think they are actually earning far less than they could be. I'd think $1B in bag fees would likely be mostly profit $1B in revenue whittles down to whatever is leftover after paying all the bills.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:17 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
Yes, and that's why the decision was finally made to make in-seat power a priority.

Please post those data.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
glbltrvlr
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:23 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Is the $1B that WN earns from people choosing them for no-bag-fees "revenue" or "profit"?

My take was that they were doing a revenue to revenue comparison. Your question gets to the issue of margin. That is, the margin from bag fees is likely higher than that from ticket revenue. They didn't address that, but I would point out that additional ticket sales offers the opportunity for additional ancillary fees, which bag fees would not.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 51):

As I stated above, I believe airlines are going to have some major trouble in the future with power ports. As a mech. I know that wiring on aircraft has become a contentious inspection point. While wiring in the subfloor and ceiling are not near as subject to damage, in seat power ports are very subject to damage. Be it from passengers, cleaners or just general wear and tear. I can tell you the Grimes Egress lighting tracks were nothing but a huge PIA for maintenance. This is very low voltage/low amperage system but ended up going the way of the dodo bird. In seat power will not be so simple, I do not know the specifics of what amount of power each seat row will need/use. I can say it will have to be maintained per the new EWIS program and this program is not an option. Dirt, grime, fluids, rubbing, improper routing, general condition and detailed condition are all no go in the new inspection system. As a mech. we are now required to do a detailed visual inspection on all electrical systems we access for maintenance and we sign for such per the MM, SRM and WDM. Just a thought on wiring coming through the floor into any cabin area, it is extremely subject to damage. JMO.

I'm right there with you.
Instead of more airlines falling in line and adding in seat power, we need more airlines to REVERSE the decision!
But no one ever listens to mainteanance, until after a disaster, at which point they all turn around and say, "Well, maintenance SHOULD HAVE informed us that this would be a problem."

Swissair 111 turned me off of IFE from that point forward.
The exception would be wireless IFE, but the FAA is terrified of the entire concept, so the 787 had to forego it in favor of heavy, bulky, wiring-intesive old school junk.
Thumbs down.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:42 am

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 54):
They didn't address that, but I would point out that additional ticket sales offers the opportunity for additional ancillary fees, which bag fees would not.

True, though I'm not sure that WN is as big on ancillaries as others like F9, G4, NK, etc.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
Yes, and that's why the decision was finally made to make in-seat power a priority.

Please post those data.

You expect him to post data from an internally funded study at his employer? I'd be very surprised if anyone would do that.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 56):
You expect him to post data from an internally funded study at his employer? I'd be very surprised if anyone would do that.

I don't know why I should believe him if he doesn't. Clearly, carriers' opinions differ on this, and some data might assist in the discussion.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 57):
I don't know why I should believe him if he doesn't. Clearly, carriers' opinions differ on this, and some data might assist in the discussion.

I've never understood this mindset, with all due respect. If we are going to require insiders to post links or proprietary info in order to be taken seriously, I think we might as well tell these folks who are otherwise great contributors that their inner knowledge is no longer requested or appreciated.

His carrier has one study as an outcome. What's so hard to believe about that? Other carriers, with a different customer base, different stage lengths, and different requirements might have a different outcome.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 58):
I've never understood this mindset, with all due respect. If we are going to require insiders to post links or proprietary info in order to be taken seriously, I think we might as well tell these folks who are otherwise great contributors that their inner knowledge is no longer requested or appreciated.

It would be a little easier to believe if the poster didn't make negative posts on every single topic regarding WN... This particular post isn't necessarily negative but he has made other negative posts within this topic.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 59):
It would be a little easier to believe if the poster didn't make negative posts on every single topic regarding WN... This particular post isn't necessarily negative but he has made other negative posts within this topic.

Then disregard his opinion about WN. I don't disregard what many employees on here say about their airlines, even though many of them piss on other carriers every chance they get. You have to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe. However, even if you choose to disregard 100% of what they say - which I have no quarrel with - I think you can see that shutting down all dialogue that employees bring to this forum (i.e. inside info) would not benefit the board.

At least that's my opinion.

And I get how some people really rub you the wrong way. To this day I have yet to consider DL for an itinerary solely based on the way WorldTraveler conducted himself on this board. It might be petty, but with so many other options, talking with your wallet is a logical way to respond to many of these posters, particularly when they come off as paid hacks.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 58):
I've never understood this mindset, with all due respect.

Maybe I can help you: I can pay a consultant $250,000 to come up with a study to defend (or attack) whatever product I might be thinking about offering. Fundamentally, that's why consulting is such lucrative business, both in this industry and in others. So saying that there's a study out there that says X doesn't really help us very much unless we understand the basis for that conclusion.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 61):
Maybe I can help you: I can pay a consultant $250,000 to come up with a study to defend (or attack) whatever product I might be thinking about offering. Fundamentally, that's why consulting is such lucrative business, both in this industry and in others. So saying that there's a study out there that says X doesn't really help us very much unless we understand the basis for that conclusion.

Of course. Heck, we don't even know if some of these posters actually work for the airlines or not. What we DO know is that if we require them to source everything they say, they're be a whole lot of rumor and not a whole lot of insight into what's going on behind the scenes at these carriers. Every time we lose one of these insiders the forum becomes a little less interesting and a little more drama-driven.

Again, just my opinion.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TPA0822
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:12 pm

Great notes - thanks for taking the time to post them.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):Yes, and that's why the decision was finally made to make in-seat power a priority.
Please post those data.

Sorry, posting detailed, proprietary data to satisfy your curiosity - jeopardizing my employment in the process - isn't on my to-do list. You'll have to take my word for it, backed by the fact that after years of avoiding in-seat power, it was suddenly the biggest focal point of a very time-sensitive $100M cabin refresh project.

Companies don't agree to spend that kind of money without having real, substantive data justifying the business case.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ytib
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 64):
Sorry, posting detailed, proprietary data to satisfy your curiosity - jeopardizing my employment in the process - isn't on my to-do list. You'll have to take my word for it, backed by the fact that after years of avoiding in-seat power, it was suddenly the biggest focal point of a very time-sensitive $100M cabin refresh project.

Companies don't agree to spend that kind of money without having real, substantive data justifying the business case.

I'm sure the lack of power in the N gate at SEA was one of the contributing factors to adding power. It is nice to have the power but I don't expect to have it on a flight and with AS when I am flying on the -400's and -900ER's I don't plan to have it at all. On a trip about 24 hours ago JNU-ANC-SEA-DEN, the flight without power was the one you wouldn't expect SEA-DEN which was also a flight without wifi installed (900ER).

I just carry an external battery with me I can charge a tablet/phone if needed as I don't expect power on a plane, and tend to us the battery more so off a plane than on. The one thing which is nice with WN is I can always could on power at the gate with the exception of the A gates at DEN.
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chrisair
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:08 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 51):
As I stated above, I believe airlines are going to have some major trouble in the future with power ports.

I've already had a couple AS flights with inop power systems. One time we took a delay so mx could come on and shut the system down due to an electrical humming a pax and FA (but not the pilot) could hear. Kudos to the pilot for believing the pax and FA and doing the right thing and shutting down the system.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 64):
You'll have to take my word for it, backed by the fact that after years of avoiding in-seat power, it was suddenly the biggest focal point of a very time-sensitive $100M cabin refresh project.

I tend to believe the cabin refresh was more about the additional seats they could cram in and the power was a secondary "benefit" they could add. Kind of a "we giveth, we taketh away." AS certainly hasn't been advertising the legroom they've taken away from F or Y, that they've removed the mid-cabin lavs on the -900s, and that they've completely taken a full size bin from F for an extra life raft. Speaking of legroom, why does F have 36" now and row 6 has something like 50"? Couldn't they give everyone in F an extra 2" and still have a ton of space in 6?

I'm fiercely loyal to AS, but to say that the in seat power is the "biggest focal point" of the cabin refresh seems a bit silly. Their marketing people know they can't sell less legroom.  
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 64):
Companies don't agree to spend that kind of money without having real, substantive data justifying the business case.

Let's presume that there are data supporting AS's installation of power. Without seeing the data, how do we know whether or not we can generalize that result to WN, which has a network that is both qualitatively and quantitatively different?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bayareablue
Posts: 71
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 66):

I've already had a couple AS flights with inop power systems. One time we took a delay so mx could come on and shut the system down due to an electrical humming a pax and FA (but not the pilot) could hear. Kudos to the pilot for believing the pax and FA and doing the right thing and shutting down the system.

That humming is actually typical when there is no load put on the system. It is more like a clicking noise. When you plug something in, it goes away.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 66):

I tend to believe the cabin refresh was more about the additional seats they could cram in and the power was a secondary "benefit" they could add. Kind of a "we giveth, we taketh away." AS certainly hasn't been advertising the legroom they've taken away from F or Y, that they've removed the mid-cabin lavs on the -900s, and that they've completely taken a full size bin from F for an extra life raft. Speaking of legroom, why does F have 36" now and row 6 has something like 50"? Couldn't they give everyone in F an extra 2" and still have a ton of space in 6?

- Added capacity helps lower your costs (CASM). The lower costs helps in remaining competitive.
- The advertisements are in the seat back cards when on board. The most notable aspect of legroom (pitch) is your knee room. With the addition of the row of seats in front of the exit room, the pitch has been reduced but due to the seat design you have better knee room.
- The mid-cabin lavatories were a maintenance nightmare, plus there were only six of them in a fleet of 130ish airplanes. It makes sense to standardize.
- Adding the seats on the 737-800's put the capacity above the numbers that the current life raft configuration could handle thus an additional raft was needed. It was not ideal to put it in the overheard bin but with there being no 2nd bin like the 900ER's have in the ceiling and wanting to keep commonality with the 900ER's, it was the best choice.
- The legroom in F is the way it is because of the seat leg/base design and limitations due to the seat tracks. If you ever look towards the end of the F, the tracks go from being at an angle to being straight. Spanning that break is very difficult considering the design requirements of today. The Recaro F seats are a little bigger than the seats they replaced due to the extra padding and such added after feedback. Row 6 is the way it is (40" pitch) due to the airbags in the seatbelts. There are certain requirements that have to be met and the net result is why the seats are spaced that way in row 6.
 
chrisair
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting bayareablue (Reply 68):
That humming is actually typical when there is no load put on the system. It is more like a clicking noise. When you plug something in, it goes away.

Interesting. It was a few months ago so mx and the flight crews were still learning the system. Hopefully as the fleet gets close to completed, everyone realizes what's normal and not. I think most people would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to unfamiliar electrical noises on a plane though.

I hear you on the other comments--except the raft. They need to figure that one out because I've seen FAs start loading bags into that bin when they run out of space in F. Hopefully they can get a second compartment in the ceiling when they redo the bins.

The general consumers don't understand CASM, mx needs and raft capacity. If AS advertises an extra row (or two) of seats, all the consumers are going to think is: "another airline shoving more seats in to make more money." It doesn't matter if the seats are actually giving the same space--which I'm not sure about, but that's my perception. All they know is the seats on airline X feel more spacious than AS. WN is a perfect example--the seats on the 800s have the same legroom as pre-evolve seats yet people bitch and moan about the legroom on the 800s.

So, AS has smartly pushed the power aspect. It's a fantastic addition no doubt (my friend flew AS to Hawaii this summer and raved about it for a week), but let's be honest. The real driver was adding seats to increase capacity and revenue. The power was a secondary benefit. You can see this in the first press release they sent out. Power and the upgraded Gogo IFE took up 3/4 of the release while adding extra seats took up one line.
 
Prost
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:25 pm

I flew AS 737-900ER two days after sitting in DL 737-900ER in economy comfort. I felt the knee room on AS was equivalent to the EC seat on DL, so kudos to Alaska for doing that right.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
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RE: Southwest Airlines Media Day Notes

Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
No power outlets on board, but adding more of them them at airports
Quoting Tugger (Reply 4):
This is the biggest mistake I see. I understand the difficulties involved but it would really set them apart from other carriers,

Not installing power outlets on aircraft is the right decision for a lot of reasons.

There quite a bit more to it than passenger inconvenience. The recent and ongoing HP recall of LS-15 computer power cords; some which have been reported to have caught fire.

I had one of the cords and it heated my computer battery to a more than comfortable level while it was sitting on my lap and tray table. One of the cords actually burned out a computer battery. Can you image a power cord fire onboard a aircraft in flight. If a computer cord fire were to ever happen they can be controlled better in a airport environment.
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