Will BA Have To Change Its Livery?

VH-BZF · Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:11 pm

There was an article on this evening's news about Scotland and it's quest/referendum to separate from England. The news item included a display of a number of flag options for England should this happen, including the removal of the 'blue' from the Union Jack. This got me to thinking about British Airways current livery and whether the airline would have to change it's livery should Scotland succeed? Would there become a Scottish airline or would BA become.......British & Scottish Airlines?

To be controversial of sorts, I'd be happy for them to bring back the 'World Tails' livery. I'm sure one of the clever a.netters will be able to put together a couple of options.

BZF

yowza · Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:57 pm

Secession would change absolutely nothing. They have become BA colors now.

YOWza

mutu · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:02 pm

whilst the union Flag will ultimately get a refresh if Scotland votes for independence this doesnt mean that the BA tail has to change - it could of course to reflect whatever the Union Flag looks lke

IF the scots vote for independence, then it will be 2016/17 before they actually leaglly separate, so still plenty of time

They have a scottish airline already, but is flies predminantly in FlyBE colours I think!

In practice I dont suppose anything changes other than APD for flights ex EDI/GLA/ABZ etc if and when the independent scottish governemnt replaces APD with something else which is cheaper (or abolished altogether).

richcandy · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:15 pm

If Scotland votes for independence, I doubt that the flag will change. The Union Jack or flag is made up of the St. George's cross (England), St Andrew's cross (Scotland) and St Patrick's cross (Ireland). Wales is part of the United Kingdom but there is no recognition of that in the Union Jack. Plus St Patrick's cross is rarely ( if ever) used in Northern Ireland to represent NI, other flags are used much more.

Personal view is that the union jack will still be the official flag of the United Kingdom even if it becomes the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Of course there is nothing to say that BA have to use red, white and blue as their colours or have the union jack on their aircraft.

qf002 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:17 pm

'Britain' or 'Great Britain' refers specifically to the island that comprises England, Scotland and Wales. An independent Scotland would still be part of Britain, just not part of 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

BA would continue to be 'British Airways'. The flag probably wouldn't change in the event of a succession either -- the blue has never been a literal representation of the St Andrew's Cross (the colour is far too dark for starters), so there's no real reason to change it.

nighthawk · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:37 pm

Not this again. There is already a thread about this in Non-Av.

BA is a private business, neither the name, tail design or colour scheme are owned in any way by Scotland, the UK or any part of it. Therefore the whole UK could crumble and divide into individual cities, and BA can still call themselves whatever they wish. Hell, they could even rename themselves "French Airways" if they wanted to - it is their choice (assuming no-one else has already registered that name). The name of a business has no relevance to the political structure of a country, whether it's an airline or a fast food restaurant.

29erUSA187 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:46 pm

BA is a widely recognized brand. Even my non a geek friends see the 777 Landing at SAN and know what it is. They would be stupid to change it.

bond007 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting VH-BZF (Thread starter):
it's quest/referendum to separate from England.

Scotland isn't voting to separate from England. They are voting to leave the UK.

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):
The name of a business has no relevance to the political structure of a country, whether it's an airline or a fast food restaurant

Well this thread is about the livery, not name. But sure the name is 'relevant' - it would be pretty stupid to call the airline "French Airlines" so the political structure is very relevant to what an airline, or anything is named. Regardless ...not the topic of this thread.

Jimbo

1400mph · Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:58 pm

Popcorn at the ready.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-flag-design-to-all-tailfins.html

vv701 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
'Britain' or 'Great Britain' refers specifically to the island that comprises England, Scotland and Wales. An independent Scotland would still be part of Britain, just not part of 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.

The name 'Britain' is directly derived from the name used by the Romans for their first to third century colony that they called 'Britannia'. That colony stretched from the South Coast of what is today England up to the wall they built to keep out the Scots, namely Hadrian's Wall. It included Wales.

Hadrian's Wall is today effectively the border between today's England and Scotland. The name 'England' is derived from the word 'Angleland' the name given to what is now England by the Anglo-Saxons when they invaded after the departure of the Romans.

When King James VI of Scotland was crowned King James I of England in July 1603 the term 'Great Britain' was introduced to cover both Britain (that is England and Wales) and Scotland.

The term 'United Kingdom' originates when the Scottish and British parliaments passed the Act of Union just over 100 years later. It was reinforced by the later Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland.

So no, Britain and Great Britain are different. Although Great Britain does include mainland Scotland, England and Wales it also includes the smaller outlying islands from the Isles of Scilly in the southwest to Shetland in the north. And an independent Scotland would not be part of either Britain or Great Britain even though, like the Republic of Ireland, it would be geographically part of the British Isles.

PHX787 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:50 pm

BA owns the copyright to the livery they have. As far as I know lol

SO no, probably not gonna need to change the livery.

BC77008 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting richcandy (Reply 3):
Personal view is that the union jack will still be the official flag of the United Kingdom even if it becomes the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I could never see the union jack going away. It's way too iconic! Even the Hawaiian state flag sports the union jack.

Thunderboltdrgn · Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting VH-BZF (Thread starter):
Would there become a Scottish airline or would BA become.......British & Scottish Airlines?

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):

Not this again. There is already a thread about this in Non-Av.

BA If No Britain? (by 1400mph Sep 4 2014 in Non Aviation)

BA0197 · Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:03 pm

Please can we be spared of this nonsense. BA sticks with the Union Jack. It will still be British Airways, even without Scotland in the Union. Is there any more to be said?

larshjort · Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 13):
Please can we be spared of this nonsense. BA sticks with the Union Jack. It will still be British Airways, even without Scotland in the Union. Is there any more to be said?

But it would look good if the blue stripe on the tail was replaced with a green one and a welsh dragon placed on top and a red bottom instead of the blue:D

skipness1E · Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting yowza (Reply 1):
Secession would change absolutely nothing.

Red, white and blue on the fin, the *blue* being Scottish.....

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
When King James VI of Scotland was crowned King James I of England in July 1603 the term 'Great Britain' was introduced to cover both Britain (that is England and Wales) and Scotland.

Actually that was Queen Anne wasn't it?

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 13):
Please can we be spared of this nonsense. BA sticks with the Union Jack. It will still be British Airways, even without Scotland in the Union. Is there any more to be said?

That's your opinion, the concept of Britain is in grave danger of spinning apart on the 18th. I say that as a Scot living in London who is a BA fan, make no mistake, BA cannot go forward with the existing branding if things get messy, which I have no doubt if Salmond wins, they will. A seperate Scotland which is a huge market for BA won't be happy with the brand going into 2015 as it would immediately be archaic and dated overnight.

yowza · Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
Red, white and blue on the fin, the *blue* being Scottish.

I lived in Edinburgh for seven years. I known very well what the constituent components of the union jack are. It is just my position that the BA brand is so strong that veering from it is not really an option. Granted if the new UK changes its flag, that flag may appear next to a reg but I highly doubt that BA will retool. My 2c.

YOWza

1400mph · Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:57 am

Well we did have British Asia Airways for a while with a different tail. Albeit only on one or two aircraft ?

Maybe BA could have a small short haul fleet with a different livery operating the Scottish routes but that's a logistical nightmare.

I'm not sure of the full implications about no APD in Scotland but Willie Walsh seems to think it can be spun into a positive.

sierra3tango · Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
Actually that was Queen Anne wasn't it?

Nope Queen Anne was 1702 - 1714

garpd · Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):

The name 'Britain' is directly derived from the name used by the Romans for their first to third century colony that they called 'Britannia'. That colony stretched from the South Coast of what is today England up to the wall they built to keep out the Scots, namely Hadrian's Wall. It included Wales

Off topic I know, but I still chuckle at the fact that the Scottish clans were more or less the only people to effectively ward off Roman occupation. The Roman army had effectively swept across all of what is now Europe and defeated all in it's path. But after several failed attempts to take Scotland, the Romans just built a wall to keep the Scots out.

Back on topic: Just to re-iterate, should enough of my fellow Scots be daft enough to vote yes to cause us to succeed, BA won't necessarily have to change anything to their brand, identity, livery or even routes.

1400mph · Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:08 am

British Airways has led calls to pare APD, which cost parent International Consolidated Airlines Group SA (IAG) 723 million euros ($934 million) in 2013, according to its annual report. IAG Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh told the BBC in February that independence %u201Cmight be marginally positive%u201D for BA, which offers as many as 55 flights to Scotland per day out of about 800 worldwide, were the SNP to honor its pledge.

%u201CWillie%u2019s focus is to see APD abolished,%u201D Laura Goodes, a spokeswoman for London-based IAG, said in response to questions this week, while adding: %u201COur line is that the referendum is a matter for Scottish voters.%u201D

The U.K. has the highest aviation tax in the world, IAG said in its annual report, with APD jumping 260 percent on short-haul flights and as much as 360 percent on long-haul since 2007, compared with an inflation rate of 20 percent. A family of four flying economy-class to Australia pays 376 pounds in tax, versus the equivalent of 160 pounds in Germany, 15 pounds in France and nothing in 25 other EU countries, it said.

%u2018Economically Powerful%u2019

British Airways flights link Edinburgh and Glasgow with London%u2019s Heathrow, City and Gatwick airports, and the oil town of Aberdeen with Heathrow and City alone. The carrier, which famously bears the union flag on the tails of its aircraft, employs about 1,300 people in the country.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...enefit-from-scottish-yes-vote.html

PM · Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:24 am

Quoting VH-BZF (Thread starter):
Would there become a Scottish airline or would BA become.......British & Scottish Airlines?

Would it make sense for BA to continue to serve Scotland much as it currently does? In the modern world, does Scotland need to start a new national airline? The trend is actually going the other way.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
An independent Scotland would still be part of Britain

Geographically, of course.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 3):
the union jack will still be the official flag of the United Kingdom

Strictly speaking, it's...

Quoting mutu (Reply 2):
the union Flag

Quoting garpd (Reply 19):
the Romans just built a wall to keep the Scots out

Recent research suggests it's more complicated than that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-22079835

Would BA change their tails? I very much doubt it.

Superfly · Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting VH-BZF (Thread starter):
I'd be happy for them to bring back the 'World Tails' livery.

Ugh! Glad the world tails are gone!

I would like to see a return to this livery.

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SKAirbus · Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:38 am

If Scotland bugger off, the island of Britain will still exist... So the airline can perfectly legitimately be called British Airways. You can compare it to American Airlines... America can refer to two continents but in this case refers to the USA. You don't see Canada or Mexico moaning about that...

Lofty · Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:51 am

Just for clarity BA does not fly the Union jack on its aircraft the design is actually the flag that Nelson had on his flag ship this is why it is called “Chatham Dockyard”. BA still uses this design on its flights to Spain and France which does make me smile.
BA will not need to change designs or name as flights to Scotland would be no different than any other country it operates too.

VH-BZF · Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Agreed.

Off topic also,

How does Asia compare for BA against the Atlantic & Africa for market share?

BZF

Superfly · Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 25):
How does Asia compare for BA against the Atlantic & Africa for market share?

I'm not privy to those numbers.
Most of the British I know here in Thailand complain about British Airways an try to avoid flying them. I know that's not scientific or anything. I haven't flown on British Airways since 1979 and I was only 6 years old at the time so I can't comment on what they are like today.
The sad thing is that European an Asian carriers are getting squeezed by the Gulf state carriers that own the fuel pump an can sale tickets at bargain basement prices. That hurts carriers like BA as well as SQ, TG, etc.

1400mph · Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):

Well BA is the only European carrier operating to Australia and profitably to boot.

Considering Asia is dominated by state owned carriers and that the U.K is by far the most exposed market in Europe to them....BA holds up pretty well.

1400mph · Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):

I know, BKK yields really suffer from lack of premium traffic. I think the two class 777 has helped but the vast majority of economy passengers on the route are highly price sensitive and not averse to a transit in the Gulf. I wouldn't be surprised if BKK goes to LGW or is even dropped.

SKAirbus · Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 28):
I know, BKK yields really suffer from lack of premium traffic. I think the two class 777 has helped but the vast majority of economy passengers on the route are highly price sensitive and not averse to a transit in the Gulf. I wouldn't be surprised if BKK goes to LGW or is even dropped.

I imagine BKK will become a 787-8 destination at some point for BA if retained at LHR.

Eurohub · Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:56 am

Quoting Lofty (Reply 24):
Just for clarity BA does not fly the Union jack...

Indeed not Lofty and not just for the very accurate reason quoted; the Union jack is only so-called when it is flown on a ship, in all other circumstances it should be called the Union Flag!

It annoys me to death when people call our flag by the wrong name!

BR, Eurohub

Superfly · Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 27):
Well BA is the only European carrier operating to Australia and profitably to boot.

Considering Asia is dominated by state owned carriers and that the U.K is by far the most exposed market in Europe to them....BA holds up pretty well.

That's good to hear. I'd rather fly British Airways over any of the Gulf state airlines that own the pump.
Although my first choice would be Thai Airways or fly to Hong Kong to get Virgin Atlantic.

Quoting Eurohub (Reply 30):
Indeed not Lofty and not just for the very accurate reason quoted; the Union jack is only so-called when it is flown on a ship, in all other circumstances it should be called the Union Flag!

It annoys me to death when people call our flag by the wrong name!

I learned something new.

Something to surprise my British friends when discussing this flag issue which is a hot topic right now.

vv701 · Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
Actually that was Queen Anne wasn't it?

You are thinking of the Act of Union of 1707 during the reign of Queen Anne. This was when both the Scottish and English parliaments voted to form the United Kingdom by merging and having a single parliament . Between 1603 and 1707 there were two separate monarchies both with the same head of state. That is to say the King of England was also the King of Scotland although otherwise the two were entirely separate.

For those who believe the blue of the BA livery will have to change, consider the flag of the US State of Hawaii. Like the Australian and New Zealand flags it has the Union Flag in the upper quartile nearest the flag pole. Although the rest of the design has been slightly amended over the years the Union Flag in its present day form has been featured on the Hawaii flag:

http://www.50states.com/flag/hiflag.htm#.VBO3S890zIU

for almost 200 years. Nothing changed even when it obtained statehood in 1959. (Note that the above link says the incorporation of the Union Flag in the Hawaii flag is 'to honor Hawaii's friendship with the British'. Hopefully Britain will remain equally friendly with Scotland if the latter votes for independence.)

If a USA State can use a full facsimile of the Union Flag in its State flag I think that BA can look forward to using its current livery for as many years as it wants to. And if Scotland votes to leave the Union do not hold your breath waiting for Hawaii to change its flag.

Schweigend · Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
The name 'Britain' is directly derived from the name used by the Romans for their first to third century colony that they called 'Britannia'. That colony stretched from the South Coast of what is today England up to the wall they built to keep out the Scots, namely Hadrian's Wall. It included Wales.

True, and the Romans called today's Scotland "Caledonia".

British Caledonian Airways, anyone? Maybe CALEDONIAN will make a return!

For kicks, here is a pic of BCAL 707-3L6C G-CDHW at IAH on 26 Aug 78:

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Quoting garpd (Reply 19):
Off topic I know, but I still chuckle at the fact that the Scottish clans were more or less the only people to effectively ward off Roman occupation. The Roman army had effectively swept across all of what is now Europe and defeated all in it's path. But after several failed attempts to take Scotland, the Romans just built a wall to keep the Scots out.

Well, not exactly. The Romans' conquest of Germania pretty much stopped at the Rhine, as they couldn't successfully subdue the Germanic tribes north and east of the river. Since the river is a natural barrier, they didn't need to build a wall like Hadrian's.

Cheers.

mandala499 · Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:40 am

If Scotland separates and the Union Flag has to change, and therefore BA's logo has to change, well... it's simple...
Replace Flag of St. Andrew with Flag of St. David.

So, just change the blue to black to represent the changes.

Seriously, the Union Flag is the flag of the union of monarchy, not the governments.
Therefore, the Union Flag remains as is as long as England and Scotland shares the same monarch.

Scotland can however, refuse a union with Northern Ireland and use the 1707-1801 Union Flag for themselves and let the English use the Union Flag as we know it today.

So, will we get a joint Edinburgh/Glasgow airport?

hotplane · Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:11 pm

Is this rendering genuine? https://twitter.com/thefakephotos/status/512643381319958528

larshjort · Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting hotplane (Reply 35):
Is this rendering genuine?

Yes that is a genuine rendering, but I doubt it is an official BA/IAG rendering. Especially since the account is called @thefakephotos

/Lars

1400mph · Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:27 pm

Well, only a few hours to go and then it's a topic not based on conjecture.

We still won't know though because if it is a YES we face months of wrangling.

I for one wouldn't recommend this process....I don't know how they got on in Quebec but it's exhausting. They must feel like their heads are going to explode in Scotland never mind the rest of the U.K.

Andy33 · Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:36 am

Well, that's it. The mods can lock the topic now that the result is in. No need to change liveries, flags, airline names since the Scots voted No.

lweber557 · Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:01 am

Thats a big nope on Scotland. Next thread : Will Texas Succeed from the United States

VC10er · Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Agreed! Back to the "LANDOR" livery! Updated, but it was the best of all by far!

rj777 · Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 39):
Thats a big nope on Scotland. Next thread : Will Texas Succeed from the United States

The word is "secede" not succeed.....

bmacleod · Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:17 pm

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 39):
Thats a big nope on Scotland.

Pity. I was open to a new flag carrier...

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