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blooBirdie
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 49):
There aren't any pics of it here in the database.

Well, just the one:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Gaskin




ED: Aaargh! 742. Sorry.

[Edited 2014-09-13 04:44:54]
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 46):

Yes thats another UTA then AF for a brief period with 744s.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 4):
I've got plenty of fond memories of Air New Zealand 747s; ZK-NBT was the second plane I ever flew on, I been into the flight deck of ZK-SUH

I too have fond memories of NZ 747s - flew on ZK-SUH from AKL-YVR and back; and I have also been onto the flight deck of ZK-SUH. The old Y class seats were fantastic - 34in pitch in economy! It's one of the most comfortable flights I've been on.

What a pity that they're getting rid of them already  
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:39 pm

Unfortunately when crude crossed $100, some started calling the 744 'gas guzzlers'. The sky-rocketing price of crude does play a big factor here....

I for one would love NZ to order the 747-8i, but the economics of the 77W seems to be blinding out serious interest in the 747-8i....

[Edited 2014-09-13 10:40:46]
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 19):
Gonna be boring flying Air New Zealand now

An airline seat is an airline seat, unless you're up the front the majority of seats are much the same.
 
JonDownUnder
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:31 am

Some sadness here, too, as I flew NZ's 747s several times over the years. The last was AKL-PPT in late June 2011 when a NZ 744 stood in for a TN 343 while the Tahitians were on strike. That particular flight was memorable for me by the fact that it ended with a particularly hard landing (in calm weather) - very unusual in my experience of flying on 747s going back to the 1970s.

On a separate note, I suppose this news makes an old beach towel of mine a relic - as if the livery displayed on the towel didn't already make it so:

 
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zkojq
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting n901wa (Reply 7):

Thanks for sharing! I encourage anyone else who has photos of Air New Zealand 747s being scrapped to share them here as they are very difficult to come by.

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 29):
There wouldn't have been one. Air New Zealand made a decision some years back to no longer allow water salutes on company aircraft.

I wonder why? Though I guess that explains why there wasn't one in Sydney for the 787-9 inaugural nor for the first ANZ flight to Bali, when they restarted that.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 42):
I thought China Airlines was just A330s to here these days?

I thought the Taipei service via Brisbane was operated by 744s, but apparently thats operated by A333s now. The change must have been very recent.
 
cxb744
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:16 pm

The only time I've flown on the upper deck was on an AirNZ 744 from LHR to LAX in Premium Economy. Unforgettable.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 53):
Unfortunately when crude crossed $100, some started calling the 744 'gas guzzlers'. The sky-rocketing price of crude does play a big factor here....

I for one would love NZ to order the 747-8i, but the economics of the 77W seems to be blinding out serious interest in the 747-8i....

Remember, it's not just fuel consumption. Engine count has a direct effect on costs. I believe that the fuel consumption per ASM is lower on the 748i than on the 77W, but the 748i still has four engines to purchase and maintain while the 777 only has two.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
Engine count has a direct effect on costs. I believe that the fuel consumption per ASM is lower on the 748i than on the 77W, but the 748i still has four engines to purchase and maintain while the 777 only has two.

An IATA study for 2012 puts the Cost/flight hour for a 2-engine wide body at $1340 and for 3 or more engines, $1797. Total maintenance for a WB-2 was $5.1m and WB3+ $7.0m per annum.
link..........

http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/workgro...Documents/AMC-ExecComment-FY12.pdf
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:02 pm

^In addition to the maintenance costs there were separate crew costs for the 747. With their withdrawal NZ have now removed one of 5 mainline pilot groups , with 2 more to follow ( 737/767) over the next couple of years. Operating with only two flight crew pools (777/787 and A320/321) instead of 5 offers significant savings. From a nostalgia point of view, I'm sorry to see the 744 gone, but as someone who wants NZ to continue to be a successful business, I welcome their overdue withdrawal even though AKL is now a duller airport without them.
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 60):
With their withdrawal NZ have now removed one of 5 mainline pilot groups , with 2 more to follow ( 737/767) over the next couple of years. Operating with only two flight crew pools (777/787 and A320/321) instead of 5 offers significant savings

Whilst that is the companies long term goal, the 787 and 777 pilot groups are and will be for the near future separate and distinct. There are both operational and contractual hurdles to overcome.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:57 pm

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 61):
There are both operational and contractual hurdles to overcome.

What sort of operational hurdles are there?
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 62):
What sort of operational hurdles are there?

Well at the moment the CAA here views them as separate types. Crews even coming from the 777 have to complete the type rating (obviously) and then a full training/consolidation period just as if they had come from the A320. There will be a couple of management pilots alternating between the fleets (month on, month off etc) and each time they switch, they have to requalify. Until that all changes, free movement between the two is not practical.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:17 am

While not a surprise, it is a sad moment.

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 2):
But the aircraft was likely to continue flying elsewhere, unlike many of its predecessors which ended up in wreckers' yards.

That is a pleasant surprise. I'm happy to hear there is a resale market for 744s, if even very specific:

Quoting na (Reply 8):
16 years is nothing for a 744, and its got GE engines which seems to be the most desirable type for the secondhand market.

Agreed. The low overhaul costs favor the GE.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
And I am happy to have already 59 Boeing 747-8i flights

   I'm never going to be able to beat that! (I haven't flown on the 748 yet.) But I will miss the 747. So far, *every* flight of mine from Los Angeles to Europe has had at least one segment on the 747 each way. I don't know how... I just booked on schedules and fares, but that is it. I've only flown 777s on flights that don't even begin to tough its range.

You know what, I just need more vacation so I can try various planes.  

Lightsaber
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting flyforever (Reply 23):
I'm glad I flew one this year, Melbourne-Auckland

I've had two NZ 744 flights this year. BNE-AKL in March in Y+ top deck and AKL-SFO in June Y+ top deck

Quoting stealth777 (Reply 38):
actually ANZ schedule currently shows 5x B772 and 2x B77W into SFO.

SFO is one of the first two destinations to be dedicated to the new 772 configuration.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 63):
Well at the moment the CAA here views them as separate types.

what is the viewpoint of other regulators, particularly the FAA and Japan?
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:09 pm

I for one was disappointed when NZ pulled their 744s out of YVR in favour of codesharing on AC 77Ws.

Hopefully NZ will return to YVR soon...
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 67):
Hopefully NZ will return to YVR soon...

They have been serving YVR at least 3x weekly for a few years now , probably since the 77E became available.
 
je89_w
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:03 pm

It's sad to see this day come, but the writing on the wall became clearer as their B744 fleet slowly dwindled down to just one. I've had the pleasure of flying on ZK-TGA (leased from TG) from DPS to SIN, as well as on ZK-NZX from CHC to AKL. Although the latter was a short domestic hop, it was memorable enough where I enjoyed a full meal and handing out sweets to the passengers prior to landing. Good ol times.

I was quite disappointed when my scheduled B744 flight to NAN morphed to a B77W earlier this year. While we taxied out to the runway, ZK-NBV instead sat idle on the AKL ramp.   Would have been nice to be on the upper deck with its unique half BP/half PE config.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 67):
Hopefully NZ will return to YVR soon...

NZ still serves YVR with the B772, operating 4x weekly.
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 68):

They have been serving YVR at least 3x weekly for a few years now , probably since the 77E became available.

There's even talk lately that it will become an daily service, with an 789
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 67):

NZ started YVR in Nov 2007 and served it continuously 744s ran for most of 2009/11. It runs between 3-6 weekly with 772s now depending on the season. AC have never served AKL.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting je89_w (Reply 69):
I was quite disappointed when my scheduled B744 flight to NAN morphed to a B77W earlier this year. While we taxied out to the runway, ZK-NBV instead sat idle on the AKL ramp.

I had a similar experience last week. I booked a trip to SYD to get on the 744 and a day before it turned into a 789. According to a crew member it seems like there were quite a large number of PAX on board who like me booked the flight to get a last jaunt on the 744, not to be though
 
col
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:00 am

AKL will not be the same without the NZ 747's Over the years I have flown on their 742 and 744's. Always good service, they were pretty nice 744's when compared with UA/DL/NW options at that time. Of my 283 x 747 flights, I would say the NZ birds were some of the best. Thanks NZ Queens, you will be missed.
 
zkeoj
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Fly on them as long as you can. Not many left apparently.

I hope you'll fly me FRA-YVR in January...

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 18):
And I am happy to have already 59 Boeing 747-8i flights

...and LAX-FRA in December (my first 748i flight)  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Which Asia/Pacific airlines still fly the 744 now?

CX has still a few in service.

Quoting je89_w (Reply 69):
handing out sweets to the passengers prior to landing

They still do that on all mainline flights (domestic and international) - the distinct NZ touch. And you are welcome to take more than one out of the basket  


I will miss the NZ 744s as well. I have done 45 744 flights, but NZ was the only one where I had the privilege of flying on the upper deck (between AKL and SFO - twice in J, once in Y+). ZK-NBS was my first NZ flight (FRA-LAX-AKL), and third 744 flight. I was going on holidays to New Zealand, and got hooked. Came back for university here, and 4 years later again to live here.  

Overall, I did 17 744-legs on NZ, compared to 10 on LH, and smaller numbers on TG, AC, SQ, CX, QF, KL. Just as other Kiwis, I booked AKL-BNE earlier this year to say good-bye to the 744, and had a Y+ main deck seat, which was fabulous. Since I am regularly flying LH longhaul (about once or twice a year), there is a good chance that I will continue flying 744s, 748s, and 346s  

Cheers
micha
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 74):
CX has still a few in service.

No they don't. I saw one of the last ones depart SFO just last month.  
 
zkeoj
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
No they don't. I saw one of the last ones depart SFO just last month.

Yes they do. Maybe not to SFO, but they still have some in service - 8 passenger versions, according to airfleets
I also saw a bunch of them in HKG last month (examples are here ), and doubt they have all been withdrawn in a matter of a few weeks...

Cheers
micha
 
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NZ107
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 75):
No they don't. I saw one of the last ones depart SFO just last month.

They only retired them from long haul flying (HKG-JNB, HKG-SFO) last month. They're continuing on regional routes for another few more months at least.
 
zkeoj
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 77):
They only retired them from long haul flying (HKG-JNB, HKG-SFO) last month. They're continuing on regional routes for another few more months at least.

That explains it - thanks for the info, Nick!

Cheers
micha
 
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CCA
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:01 pm

The current CX plan has between 3-5 pax 744s for the next 2-3 years at least, assuming no drastic world economic changes and as said only for regional work.

HUI, HUJ and HKT will be the last 3.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting je89_w (Reply 69):
NZ still serves YVR with the B772, operating 4x weekly.

Sorry; must have missed news regarding the 772...

Have to admit AC codesharing 77Ws was a big factor in the NZ 744 pullout...
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 77):
They only retired them from long haul flying (HKG-JNB, HKG-SFO) last month. They're continuing on regional routes for another few more months at least.

I researched it and yes, you are correct. They still have a few 744s. My guess is that by this time next year there won't be any left.

I wonder why they are still using them on regional routes. Surely they're even less efficient in regional service than they are on long-haul?
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:00 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 80):
Have to admit AC codesharing 77Ws was a big factor in the NZ 744 pullout...

Sorry, I am not with you on this one. With the 77W what city pairs are you referring to?
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 80):
Have to admit AC codesharing 77Ws was a big factor in the NZ 744 pullout...

AC doesn't fly to AKL, they only fly to SYD.

When NZ started YVR they only had an couple of 772 and didn't get the 77W untill late 2010. Therefore they only had the 744 to start the route with.

Then as they got more 772/77W they grew the route to go year round and more times an week.
 
Mr AirNZ
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 83):
When NZ started YVR they only had an couple of 772 and didn't get the 77W untill late 2010. Therefore they only had the 744 to start the route with.

They had all eight 772s long before YVR launched in late 2007. The 744 didn't appear on the route until a couple of years later before going back to being all 772.
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 83):
When NZ started YVR they only had an couple of 772 and didn't get the 77W untill late 2010. Therefore they only had the 744 to start the route with.

YVR started with a 772 in 2008 and went 744 in 2009


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Dana Low


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Photo © Dana Low

 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:49 am

Food for thought. The 747 still has good economy of scale with 654 of 1489 produced still flying of which 75 are the 748. But as I look at NZ, NA, CX (pax), and others phasing out the type, the economy of scale is in danger of 'turning south' as too few will be flying to keep the parts market healthy.

It takes over 400 of a type to keep economics going. But since the 748/744/742 have different subsystems in certain areas, it is going to make the costs climb a little earlier. I do not feel we're in danger of crossing that threshold imminently. But as I wish to see 747s keep flying, I wonder when that day will come.

Lightsaber
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 83):
AC doesn't fly to AKL, they only fly to SYD.

They did fly YVR-AKL as of a few years ago , has YVR-AKL been cut?
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 87):

Only NZ flies AKL-YVR-AKL. AC flies YVR-SYD. NZ has been serving YVR since 2008 with no AC on the route
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 87):
They did fly YVR-AKL as of a few years ago , has YVR-AKL been cut?

Canadian Pacific did but never AC
 
n471wn
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 86):
the economy of scale is in danger of 'turning south' as too few will be flying to keep the parts market healthy.

Are you kidding me? The deserts are full of 400's and there is not a parts shortage but rather a parts surplus!!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 83):
When NZ started YVR they only had an couple of 772 and didn't get the 77W untill late 2010. Therefore they only had the 744 to start the route with.

NZ's first service to YVR must have used the 747-200 as it began in 1985 (via HNL), several years before the 744 existed. I lived in YVR then. If memory correct it was once a week initially. CP also reinstated AKL then, also once a week to begin with.

CP had been evicted from AKL about 20 years earlier (1965 I believe) when the New Zealand government unilaterally cancelled the Canada-New Zealand bilateral and forced CP to suspend AKL which they'd been serving since about 1950. That was when NZ began service to LAX and they didn't want any more competition than necessary so decided to force CP out of the market by killing the bilateral.

The new Canada-New Zealand bilateral reached in 1985 permitted each carrier to operate once a week initially, increasing to twice a week a year or so later. NZ dropped YVR for quite a few years after that initial service via HNL, and CP eventually dropped AKL also, replacing it with a code-share joint operation with NZ with CP operating YVR-HNL and YYZ-HNL, connecting with NZ HNL-AKL. CP did the same with QF to Australia about the same time, although CP eventually reinstated their own service to SYD which was inherited by AC when they merged with CP.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 91):
NZ dropped YVR for quite a few years after that initial service via HNL, and CP eventually dropped AKL also, replacing it with a code-share joint operation with NZ with CP operating YVR-HNL and YYZ-HNL, connecting with NZ HNL-AKL. CP did the same with QF to Australia about the same time, although CP eventually reinstated their own service to SYD which was inherited by AC when they merged with CP.

In the mid 90s, CP operated a scissor hub at HNL with YYZ-HNL-AKL and YVR-HNL-SYD.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 90):
Are you kidding me? The deserts are full of 400's and there is not a parts shortage but rather a parts surplus!!

Do you realize how much parts cost after a 'parts surplus?' Sure, there will a few years, like with the MD-80s, where parts of cheap. But do you realize how much more parts cost when the batch size is small? It is best to case parts in lots of 200+. Once 748 production winds down, it will be cannibalizing used parts (cheaply). Then parts will be dear.

So no, I'm not kidding. There are two sides to the maintenance curve for retired types.
Certain parts wear faster than others. As those parts wear, they become pricey.

DL realized this with the MD-80. One valve had been out of production for at least a dozen years was suddenly in demand. The vendor had *old*, but never used parts on the shelf which they started selling. DL realized there weren't enough parts for everyone so they bought a large batch as part of their final part order for the MD-80 completed this year.

As soon as DL's order was complete, the vendor *tripled* the price on the parts as with DL cancelling their contract, they were released from the old Douglas contract. So it isn't as if there won't be parts, but that vendor will sell all parts at a profit. If they need to manufacture more parts, they will likely raise the price again to insure a proper ROI. DL doesn't have to worry. They have the spares. G4 has enough spare donors for a while. Everyone else needs to worry.

The same will happen with the 744. In particular as some parts are engine version specific.

Lightsaber
 
n471wn
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 93):
The same will happen with the 744. In particular as some parts are engine version specific.

Understand all this but your scenario is many years away.....right now you can get any 747 part you want at very economical prices
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 91):
replacing it with a code-share joint operation with NZ with CP operating YVR-HNL and YYZ-HNL, connecting with NZ HNL-AKL

My wife and I flew the last CP flight HNL-AKL in October 1998. The return AKL-HNL sector was on one of the Polynesian carriers 767's , I forget the name.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 92):

CP served AKL again from about 85-92 with 742s then DC10s. Then they codeshared with NZ until 97 via HNL with NZ going AKL-HNL then CP onwards. CP returned for a year in 97/98 with a 763 then FJ ran AKL-HNL for a few years.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 95):

That was FJ who ran their 763 AKL-HNL.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 96):
then FJ ran AKL-HNL for a few years.

Was the FJ AKL-HNL service a wet-lease for NZ? I doubt FJ would have had stand-alone 7th freedom traffic rights AKL-HNL and NAN-AKL-HNL wouldn't be a logical 5th freedom routing.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Retires Last 747-400

Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 97):

I dont think so though the timings were similar, it did replace the CP service though. NZ ran NAN-HNL for years which is/was logical, not to say FJ had rights for AKL-HNL though.

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