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What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:04 pm

Previous thread getting too long:

What's Going On In CLE - Part 6 (by iowaman Jun 1 2014 in Civil Aviation)

So here is the continuation.

Enjoy  

Ben Soriano
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mariner
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:47 pm

Just out of interest, did United ever fly CLE-PDX?

TIA

mariner
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cle757
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Just out of interest, did United ever fly CLE-PDX?

Yeah, but only during holidays for maybe a week or so.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:51 pm

In true CO/UA form, they did fly CLE-PDX in the summer of 2014, instead of CLE-PHX, a route that will soon have 3 airlines nonstop if they all hang in there.
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:57 pm

Excuse me, I meant summer of 2013 was the daily nonstop CLE-PDX flights
 
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mariner
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting cle757 (Reply 2):
Yeah, but only during holidays for maybe a week or so.

Any clues as to how it did?

mariner
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fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
Any clues as to how it did?

I can say the summer of 2013 PDX flights were in the $500-600 range most of the time and the a/c was formerly on the PHX route which would not have the yield that PDX did. We won't see that route again anytime soon!

Anyone know the BA time frame for the decision for a new TATL destination?
 
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antoniemey
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Just out of interest, did United ever fly CLE-PDX?

Long ago and far away (AKA the early 90s just before CO pulled out of PDX for a few years) they flew CLE-PDX. I remember this only because when my mother and I moved to GSO in 1994 our layover was in CLE, and we only took 2 flights. It seems to have been one of those routes that they couldn't decide whether to keep and operate at a thin margin or drop and forego the revenue in favor of putting the plane somewhere else.
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Fiesta13
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 7):
Long ago and far away (AKA the early 90s just before CO pulled out of PDX for a few years) they flew CLE-PDX.

Incorrect. The only time CO/UA flew the route was once or twice for holidays (Thanksgiving once, and I believe Christmas once), and then last year for summer flying. The route never existed other than that.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:13 pm

So far this week Fedex has upgraded the daylight MEM-CLE-MEM turn from A306s to a MD-11 and a DC-10. I'm not yet sure if this is an ad hoc substitution or a regular schedule change, but in either case it's a nice added increment of capacity indicating continuing growth in CLE's economy.

Edit: the night time flight remains an A306.

[Edited 2014-09-17 11:29:05]
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 9):
So far this week Fedex has upgraded the daylight MEM-CLE-MEM turn from A306s to a MD-11 and a DC-10. I'm not yet sure if this is an ad hoc substitution or a regular schedule change

Gotta haul in all those new iphones!
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
Gotta haul in all those new iphones!

That's disappointing. Checking more, I see MD11 and DC10 were extra flights and not equipment subs.
 
chrisjake
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:16 pm

The DC-10 did not return to Memphis, it went MEM-CLE-YYZ The scheduled A300 still arrived a couple of hours later.

[Edited 2014-09-18 09:17:45]
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:55 pm

"Major Air Service Announcement at 11am at CLE! Follow us on Twitter @GoingPlacesCLE for live tweets of the press conference!"

Ooo what could it be?!
 
Sligo
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):

"Major Air Service Announcement at 11am at CLE! Follow us on Twitter @GoingPlacesCLE for live tweets of the press conference!"

Ooo what could it be?!

From a photo Ive seen the balloons at the CLE press conference are not the color of B6.

And one lesson I've learned the hard way:
always trust balloons...
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting Sligo (Reply 14):

From a photo Ive seen the balloons at the CLE press conference are not the color of B6.

DAMNIT! If they're yellow ballons I'm gunna be pissed.
 
N353SK
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:04 pm

Spirit coming to CLE
 
Fiesta13
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
Quoting Sligo (Reply 14):

From a photo Ive seen the balloons at the CLE press conference are not the color of B6.

DAMNIT! If they're yellow ballons I'm gunna be pissed.

  
 
Sligo
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
DAMNIT! If they're yellow ballons I'm gunna be pissed.

I can now confirm the balloons are green and blue and white....which are the CLE Hopkins brand colors, correct?

Well then this development on the balloon-front opens us back up to any possibility...
 
Fiesta13
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:07 pm

Twitter says it's Spirit, so N766UA, I officially knight you "pissed".
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 19):
Twitter says it's Spirit, so N766UA, I officially knight you "pissed".

Ugh god WHY?! Oh how disappointing.

Any new service is good for CLE, but Spirit would be my dead last hope. I wouldn't fit in their jammed-in seats even if I WANTED to fly them. What a shame for anyone who values their dignity.

On the plus side, Frontier just moved WAY up in CLE's hierarchy! Charge for carry-ons? Sure, but at least you can fit an adult human in our seats...
 
Fiesta13
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:12 pm

Apparently they'll start with 8 destinations including LAS and LAX and Florida destinations as well.
 
cle757
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:13 pm

Spirit is a major announcement?...British Airways to London would be major!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 21):
Apparently they'll start with 8 destinations including LAS and LAX and Florida destinations as well.

Flying CLE-LAX in a non-reclining, 28'' pitch seat surrounded by, well, Spirit flyers, sounds EXACTLY like my idea of what the Hanoi Hilton must have been like.
 
Fiesta13
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:19 pm

Starting Jan 15, service to MCO, RSW, TPA
Starting Feb 6, FLL, DFW, LAS
Starting Apr 16, LAX, MYR

http://ir.spirit.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=872374
 
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compensateme
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:24 pm

Seriously?

- Whine, cry & complain about how CLE is overlooked, how high CLE's airfares are, etc.
- Get a new airline starting up 8 routes to popular destinations from CLE
- AND that airline has the industry's lowest fares
- Whine, cry & complain about how that airline isn't good enough and UA screwed CLE...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:26 pm

All but MYR are already served by at least 2 airlines, including ULCC Frontier. Interesting.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 26):
All but MYR are already served by at least 2 airlines, including ULCC Frontier. Interesting.

Not LAX, that's a UA monopoly. Spirit disappointed me; I figured they would announce it in August. I also hoped they would include San Diego as a destination.

I think Spirit is great for those who want that kind of service. If I were a million years younger, I'd probably fly them. I think we will find that what used to be called the "Southwest Effect" is found today with Frontier and Spirit. CLE will see lots of new patrons who perhaps couldn't afford to fly (at least, as a family) before.

Spirit's planned seven daily departures will replace the lift of another 25 of UA's lost E145's. Between Frontier and Spirit, almost 2/3 of UA's capacity reduction will be back. Of course, this may well blow UA out of the Florida markets, but that's life.

What's really going to be the show is the head-to-head competition between CLE's two newest carriers.
 
flyguy89
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:20 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 25):

Seriously?

- Whine, cry & complain about how CLE is overlooked, how high CLE's airfares are, etc.
- Get a new airline starting up 8 routes to popular destinations from CLE
- AND that airline has the industry's lowest fares
- Whine, cry & complain about how that airline isn't good enough and UA screwed CLE...

Right?! SMH  

Good for CLE though, more competition and lower fares will ALWAYS be a benefit to a region, whether you have an irrational, emotional aversion to Spirit or not.
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 25):
Seriously? - Whine, cry & complain about how CLE is overlooked, how high CLE's airfares are, etc.- Get a new airline starting up 8 routes to popular destinations from CLE - AND that airline has the industry's lowest fares- Whine, cry & complain about how that airline isn't good enough and UA screwed CLE...


As a routinely complaining CLE person, I'm not gonna do so about F9 or this with Spirit. It is a substantial add and should help the airfare situation. And even if UA bales on competing Spirit routes, that was kinda expected to happen anyway no matter which carrier might establish a competitive route. What was the potential for a rarely point to point legacy carrier? Maybe AA to LAX? Nonstops at reasonable airfares are at the top of my list. And at this point, an alternate itinerary with a connection by a legacy would still be offered at a cheaper fare, just like now. B6 is not ruled out for future, they mostly go to BOS anyway.
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 27):
Spirit's planned seven daily departures will replace the lift of another 25 of UA's lost E145's. Between Frontier and Spirit, almost 2/3 of UA's capacity reduction will be back. Of course, this may well blow UA out of the Florida markets, but that's life.

Impressive in less than 12 months!!!

Not sure UA will stay and play vs. these guys...time will tell.
 
highflier92660
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:54 pm

Spirit Airlines: "We're taking our talents to Cleveland."

I visualize a tall Brooks Brothers suit wearing businessman squeezed into a 28" pre-reclined seat, with a sticky elementary school-age kid in Mickey Mouse ears sitting immediately in front of the poor hapless soul for four to five hours out to La La Land. Indeed Spirit's airline version of waterboarding.

On another thread anetters are discussing American Airlines' $8,000 First Class Airbus A-321 service from JFK-LAX. One could not invent a more polar opposite airline service to Cleveland, a city-pair only 400 miles short of a transon. If evil stand-up comedians were collaborating on more Cleveland jokes, what better than an airline to CLE that charges for everything up to use of the cabin restroom?

This announcement may be welcome to grandma and grandpa Grunts flying down to Florida, but the Cleveland business community need an increase in service from a Delta or American to a larger offering of business destinations that are now monopolized out of Hopkins by United. American Airlines once upon a time eons ago flew DC-10 wide-bodies from Cleveland to the west coast.

Anyone talking to JetBlue?
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 25):

- Whine, cry & complain about how CLE is overlooked, how high CLE's airfares are, etc.
- Get a new airline starting up 8 routes to popular destinations from CLE
- AND that airline has the industry's lowest fares
- Whine, cry & complain about how that airline isn't good enough and UA screwed CLE...

Yes, seriously. Spirit, with 28'' legroom, zero recline, and ads plastered on everything, is simply not an option for many travelers. Personally, I don't care about saving 20 bucks, I care about having legs that work when I arrive at my destination. Ergo, no, they aren't good enough for me... and UA did screw CLE, so, there's that.

I am happy, however, about the potential downward pressure on other carrier's fares on those markets, so there are positives.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting joeman (Reply 29):
B6 is not ruled out for future, they mostly go to BOS anyway.

With UA, F9, and now NK as competition, JetBlue isn't going to like their chances on CLE-FLL. CLE-JFK has never been a great route except for TATL and Caribbean connections. So I'm not sure they'd want to come to CLE if BOS was their sole destination.

OTOH, if Spirit shifts their international flying from FLL to MIA, as is rumored, the picture might change.
 
commavia
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 31):
On another thread anetters are discussing American Airlines' $8,000 First Class Airbus A-321 service from JFK-LAX. One could not invent a more polar opposite airline service to Cleveland, a city-pair only 400 miles short of a transon.

CLE-LAX may be only a few hundred miles shorter than JFK-LAX, but in terms of market dynamics and economics, the two are radically different, which is why no airport - CLE or elsewhere - can support the levels of service that JFK-LAX/SFO do from AA and other airlines. If far larger, more premium markets like BOS and WAS cannot support ultra-premium transcons, than CLE certainly cannot - the mileage isn't the issue.

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 31):
This announcement may be welcome to grandma and grandpa Grunts flying down to Florida, but the Cleveland business community need an increase in service from a Delta or American to a larger offering of business destinations that are now monopolized out of Hopkins by United.

Fly nonstop and pay a premium, or connect. That's the reality for not just CLE, but any non-hub airport in the U.S. (or really the world). CLE is just not a sufficiently large or premium market to support extensive nonstop, non-hub services from network airlines - just like pretty much every non-hub market in the country, there is ample competition from numerous airlines if you're willing to connect at a hub.

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 31):
American Airlines once upon a time eons ago flew DC-10 wide-bodies from Cleveland to the west coast.

Those days are long gone - not just for CLE, but really in general. It's time to move on.
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 33):
So I'm not sure they'd want to come to CLE if BOS was their sole destination.

They did it with Pittsburgh!
 
cle757
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:25 pm

I'm hearing they will operate out of C concourse, which I guess means UA is giving up some gates.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting cle757 (Reply 36):
I'm hearing they will operate out of C concourse, which I guess means UA is giving up some gates.


There is already one empty as you first walk in on the left. How many would they need? Two? Three?
 
DeltaRules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 25):
Seriously?

- Whine, cry & complain about how CLE is overlooked, how high CLE's airfares are, etc.
- Get a new airline starting up 8 routes to popular destinations from CLE
- AND that airline has the industry's lowest fares
- Whine, cry & complain about how that airline isn't good enough and UA screwed CLE...


If you guys want to send some of this newly-added competition down I-71 a couple hours, I won't complain. Or, similarly, tell B6 CMH would like them back.

[Edited 2014-09-24 17:45:33]
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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jetpixx
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:49 am

Congrats to CLE on any new service. Some people just cannot be happy. Keep dreaming about TATL service, though. Because that is necessary and warranted.

I am glad to see my old stomping grounds get any new service. Sure, NK isn't the most glorious airline, but the difference between the legacies, LCCs and ULCCs isn't that severe. I flew NK on a few occasions between FLL-DTW. I found their 319s to be extremely cramped, but the 321s were on par with other airlines at the time.

Sure, business travelers might scoff at their service, and how they nickel and dime you...but that's not the target audience here. I am glad to see Spirit, Frontier and anyone else filling in the void left by UA, and hope B6 joins the crowd, too. Hell, I'd like to see PE in there, too, and Eastern and anyone else who wants to help CLE grow, not shrink.

If you don't plan on flying the airline, so be it. But seriously, don't complain about growth. It wasn't long ago that if UA added eight cities in a day, people would be having a parade. Now we're getting choosy? Really?!?!
ABE, BIL, BOS, BUF, BWI, CAE, CAK, CHS, CLE, CLT, CVG, DAY, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, GSO, IAD, IAH, IND, ISP, JAX, JFK, LAS, LGA, M57, MDW, MEM, MHT, MIA, MKE, MLB, MSO, MSP, OMA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PIT, PVD, RDU, SEA, SFO, SLC, SJU, STL, SYR, TLH, TMB, TUL, YVR
 
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compensateme
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 32):
Yes, seriously. Spirit, with 28'' legroom, zero recline, and ads plastered on everything, is simply not an option for many travelers. Personally, I don't care about saving 20 bucks, I care about having legs that work when I arrive at my destination. Ergo, no, they aren't good enough for me... and UA did screw CLE, so, there's that.

I am happy, however, about the potential downward pressure on other carrier's fares on those markets, so there are positives.

What exactly do you want? UA to consolidate its ORD & EWR hubs at CLE? DL to relocate its ATL operation?

It's only been seven months since UA announced its intention to de-hub CLE and yet CLE has gained a handful of routes plenty of increased capacity from other network carriers as well as a large and growing presence from ULCC F9 and NK. Meanwhile, UA still retains a very large origin-destination focused operation and WN has opted to maintain a reasonably sized presence in the area (including CAK). Depending on how Clevelanders react to these changes, service will continue to change -- some good, some bad. But alas, CLE now has the competition its "fan boys" have hoped for and average fares will undoubtely drop. Perhaps a price war will break out, in contrast to the rest of the nation. All this well CLE's CPE soars to among the highest in the nation. But... it's not good enough for Cleveland!

An assigned "Big Front Seat" on NK is only $99 above the lowest fare from ORD and DTW to LAX. For a price that's typically between the lowest airfare & E /EC/MCE (sometimes less), including a paid bag, I can fly in an equivalent First Class seat that's just as comfortable as those of the legacies. But it's not good enough for Cleveland!

UA is a business. At the end of the day, it makes no sense to fly 50-seaters from BUF to CLE, ORD, IAD and EWR to serve the same flow traffic. Unfortunately, CLE's the odd man out because its local market is the most lacking (especially to markets like BUF); it makes much more sense for UA to upgauge to larger, lower CASM jets and operate fewer flights. And yet UA kept a sizeable presence. CLE does not have a divine right to a hub, but UA does have a right to make business decisions. Yes, it sucks for CLE... but plenty of people are displaced from their jobs due to business decisions every single day.

Enjoy the increased competition, lower fares and more flights to places people actually go. Stop dwelling over the loss of flights to places like GSO, which impacted a whopping 3 Clevelanders per day. CLE was merely a small hub and lacked the facilities to be anything larger. Enjoy the renaissance because only good things are coming.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:16 am

Doesn't look likely that attacks on a couple posters who made some negative comments, as so many do about NK, can end too soon does it? And, we just gotta throw in non-issues not being discussed here like TATL service. Thought that was going to CMH anyway with BA... or was it STL, or PIT or MSY or SLC, or PIT or DTW or PDX, or CLT but definitely not CLE... Since I'm not seeing a whole lot of congrats by non-CLE posters who always seize the opportunity to put CLE in its place, as a few are subtly doing right here anyway, (often saved for any other discussion they can throw their stupid ignorant repetitive negative comments to), I'll take a positive approach: Like any "entitled" new service bestowed on our "prestigious" brethren, Congratulations to the airline, the city and anyone who gets a job out of it after so many UA spoils.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:54 am

“Today's announcement further establishes CLE as the preferred low fare airport in the region. We thank Spirit Airlines for choosing Northeast Ohio, specifically CLE, as their newest airport market.”

Ricky Smith's comment sounds like it's aimed at CAK. Try to keep it classy, Ricky.
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 42):
Ricky Smith's comment sounds like it's aimed at CAK. Try to keep it classy, Ricky.

Ditto to that
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:27 am

His comments only fuel the competition between the airports.

CAK has always branded itself as the low cost airport, but now with 2 ULCCs and WN at CLE and only WN at CAK that will certainly change. I think CAK may have to rebrand themselves next year, perhaps focusing on better business fares or WN's better leisure product. But with WN at CAK and CLE it does become harder for CAK to distinguish itself.

I'm curious how WN's pricing will compare to NK and F9, at both CAK and CLE? This morning F9 sent out a $15 one day sale from CLE called, "that's the spirit!" Surely F9 has some humor and is ready for competition.

Fares by 2Q15 at CLE should tumble considerably. Is the pricing pressure of both F9 and NK in a market the size of CLE enough to bring fares near the US median?
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:25 pm

Meanwhile Frontier has responded with their own $15 one-day sale.

The four-way competition in LAS and DFW will likely produce some casualties. It would be nice if it forced UA back to operating flights like BDL-CLE-LAS or PVD-CLE-DFW, but I'm afraid that won't happen.
 
commavia
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 40):
What exactly do you want? UA to consolidate its ORD & EWR hubs at CLE? DL to relocate its ATL operation?

It's only been seven months since UA announced its intention to de-hub CLE and yet CLE has gained a handful of routes plenty of increased capacity from other network carriers as well as a large and growing presence from ULCC F9 and NK. Meanwhile, UA still retains a very large origin-destination focused operation and WN has opted to maintain a reasonably sized presence in the area (including CAK). Depending on how Clevelanders react to these changes, service will continue to change -- some good, some bad. But alas, CLE now has the competition its "fan boys" have hoped for and average fares will undoubtely drop. Perhaps a price war will break out, in contrast to the rest of the nation. All this well CLE's CPE soars to among the highest in the nation. But... it's not good enough for Cleveland!

  

CLE will have plenty of competition going forward from multiple airlines - network carriers and Southwest flying to megahubs and major metro areas with strong O&D, and these ultra-low-cost carriers (Frontier and Spirit) flying to many other O&D and leisure destinations. For everything else, CLE travelers can connect - just as happens with other metro areas of similar (or even larger) size like San Antonio, Sacramento, Cincinnati, Kansas City, etc.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 40):
UA is a business. At the end of the day, it makes no sense to fly 50-seaters from BUF to CLE, ORD, IAD and EWR to serve the same flow traffic. Unfortunately, CLE's the odd man out because its local market is the most lacking (especially to markets like BUF); it makes much more sense for UA to upgauge to larger, lower CASM jets and operate fewer flights.

Precisely. Some locals may get emotional, but the above is just reality. CLE is simply no longer a large enough market to support a network airline hub - it may have been in 1998, but it's not in 2014. Hubs built largely on 50-seat RJs flying to markets with minimal O&D, particularly when said hubs are within a few hundred miles of several far larger, far stronger hubs, is simply not sustainable.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 45):
The four-way competition in LAS and DFW will likely produce some casualties.

It will be interesting to see how, if at all, United responds to these entrants - particularly in non-hub markets, which are now effectively point-to-point, like DFW.
 
izbtmnhd
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:06 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 46):

None of those metros you mention are larger than Cleveland. Oh wait, you're one of the folks that pretends Cleveland, Akron and Canton aren't part of a complete region.

People in Solon/Bedford are only allowed to use CLE while people in Macedonia/Twinsburg are only allowed to use CAK. Why? The census says so, according to you. Whatever.

A market this large is only going to get more service from non-UA carriers, not less. Cleveland is not Boston but it's not a strictly spoke city either and it's taken only 6 months for CLE to land F9 and NK after the dehub.

Hell even UA doubled down on FLL-CLE this winter while still offering nothing from IAD.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 47):
None of those metros you mention are larger than Cleveland. Oh wait, you're one of the folks that pretends Cleveland, Akron and Canton aren't part of a complete region.

People in Solon/Bedford are only allowed to use CLE while people in Macedonia/Twinsburg are only allowed to use CAK. Why? The census says so, according to you. Whatever.

  

Yikes. The definitions of "metro areas" or "combined statistical areas," etc. are highly debatable - I get that. However, while we're comparing Cleveland metro (including Akron!) with those other areas - let's also not forget something else that distinguishes Cleveland: it's the only one among those metro areas that splits its air service between two airports. That doesn't exactly help CLE's cause.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 47):
Cleveland is not Boston but it's not a strictly spoke city either

Uh, yeah ... it actually is pretty much "strictly" a "spoke city," and there's nothing wrong with that. Again - whether some want to accept it or not, the reality is that CLE is simply not that large a market in the context of U.S. airline hubs today (again, as opposed to, say, 1998) and it also suffers from suboptimal geography, given that it's surrounding by numerous other hubs that are, and always will be, far larger and stronger. If CLE were in a more remote geography where it had very little competition from other hubs, its relatively smaller size might be less of an issue - exhibit A: SLC - but alas, that is not the case.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 47):
it's taken only 6 months for CLE to land F9 and NK after the dehub

Right, and both have added lots of ... spokes. And, even that is apparently still not good enough for some in Cleveland.
 
joeman
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:19 pm

As a CLE person, I'm pleased with what's happening after the UA thing. Not looking for all that nonstop air service UA provided to places I would only drive to anyway since CLE is hardly isolated like some of our mountain friends out west. Yes, regionally there is a 2nd airport. Wish a.nutters would consistently cite that as well as the population that comes along with it, but NOT. Depends on the argument du jour.

Sure I'd like to eventually see a few more nonstop flights to a handful of mid-sized to larger metros, even if not daily or seasonally, maybe nonstop competition on a few larger business markets that are monopoly, and same with even a less than maybe daily TATL flight as evidenced as sustainable in demand by a few obviously comparable markets.

So first things first. Equipment isn't just waiting for voids or potential use. And even if a few of the markets I allude to use to have nonstop service from CLE even as far back as the 1960's or 70's, they probably weren't carrying the high passenger load factor that might be required to make it viable in todays market much less so much stress on "premium" and "yield".

I'm lovin the little airfare war between F9 and NK going on out here today in CLE. Since UA, it's been the first time there's been any positive airline publicity or actual advertising in this market since in recent memory.

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