N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 149):
At 5:45PM the last Silver B1900D is scheduled to depart for Franklin, PA. They had a nice run. Sorry to see them go.

Somehow I feel like we haven't seen the end of B1900's at CLE. They're like that Chucky doll, they just keep coming back.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:36 pm

The Plain Dealer has switched its airport stock photos. No more golden globes with blue backgrounds. These two examples were used in two recent articles that never mentioned an airline by name. Nice free advertising.


Big version: Width: 288 Height: 180 File size: 17kb
Big version: Width: 620 Height: 293 File size: 33kb


[Edited 2014-11-01 07:38:05]
 
highflier92660
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:38 pm

That sixty-something passenger in the Frontier check-in line has "Mr. Florida" written all over him. What nice free publicity for Frontier at CLE. Nevertheless, in the coming holiday travel period I will be flying to Cleveland aboard a United aircraft, enjoying a haute-cuisine lunch up in business class consisting of a dried hamburger and gourmet soup, rarely seen as a dining combination outside the cabin of a UAL 737-800.

The PD has always been somewhat oblivious to the stock photo they used in a story. Usually they show the ubiquitous shot of a United Boeing 737 or A320 taking-off even if the subject matter was the closure of Concourse D, a regional-jet concourse.
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:26 pm

Was at CAK today. WN got all the new branding. 1st station behind DAL to get the new branding.

 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:02 am

That's a pretty telling sign, no pun intended, that despite their rapidly declining pax counts, they are staying put at CAK. I'm curious what the next schedule extension has in store for both CAK and CLE. At CAK, I don't see many more route opportunities, BWI doesn't seem likely with the recent DCA add. I could possibly see STL from CAK instead of CLE, or even HOU. If WN wants to maintain and grow CAK, they need to stimulate passengers from the CLE area, and the best way to do that is by adding unique routes that ULCC's don't fly from CLE.
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:20 pm

DL goes from 7 to 8 daily CLE>ATL in the summer. Impressive amount of seats for CLE - on par with the # of UA seats to ORD. Normal increase or to keep F9 out?
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 154):
That's a pretty telling sign, no pun intended, that despite their rapidly declining pax counts, they are staying put at CAK. I'm curious what the next schedule extension has in store for both CAK and CLE. At CAK, I don't see many more route opportunities, BWI doesn't seem likely with the recent DCA add. I could possibly see STL from CAK instead of CLE, or even HOU. If WN wants to maintain and grow CAK, they need to stimulate passengers from the CLE area, and the best way to do that is by adding unique routes that ULCC's don't fly from CLE.

I'm sorry but do you want to provide a link that shows that Southwests pax count at CAK is "rapidly declining"? Their passengers numbers may be down but I think you are being a little dramatic. In your defense though I do understand the passion/bias you have for CLE and I think you would love nothing more than WN to leave CAK altogether. I think the reason CAK got rebranded so quickly and Southwests continued service at the airport has a lot to do with the airport management. CAK is a very well run little airport, and probably worked with Southwest to get the sign changes quickly. I fly from both CAK and CLE and wish someone at CLE would run the airport a little bit more like CAK, the city deserves a better facility in my opinion. I have 4 flights from CAK this month and 1 from CLE next month, I'm excited to compare my experience at the two.

I do agree with you about new routes, if WN is planning on adding new routes from CAK they need to be to unique destinations, they are now longer the only low fare leader in NE Ohio.

-ATLFLyer323
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mbm3
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 155):
DL goes from 7 to 8 daily CLE>ATL in the summer. Impressive amount of seats for CLE - on par with the # of UA seats to ORD. Normal increase or to keep F9 out?

Or perhaps DL is looking to expand CLE to somewhat of a focus city?
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 156):
I'm sorry but do you want to provide a link that shows that Southwests pax count at CAK is "rapidly declining"? Their passengers numbers may be down but I think you are being a little dramatic.

Southwest plus AirTran boardings at CAK, taken from DoT T-100 database:

Jun 12 44,837
Jun 13 42,413
Jun 14 35,612

Down 20% during an economic recovery is fairly dramatic.

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 157):
Or perhaps DL is looking to expand CLE to somewhat of a focus city?

DL will be very reluctant to act against its own interests in DTW, although with the right incentives (as PIT provided) they might fly CLE-CDG.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 158):
Southwest plus AirTran boardings at CAK, taken from DoT T-100 database:

Jun 12 44,837
Jun 13 42,413
Jun 14 35,612

What does available seating look like in this time frame? I'm going to bet it's down also. While 20% may be a significant drop since it's peak in 2012, that's what Southwest wanted, get rid of the "excess" cheap passengers. This was bound to happen at most premerger FL stations. No one can say that the world is coming to an end for CAK because their passenger boardings are down 20%. As travel patterns shift, so will flights at CAK. I'm sure there are still plenty of opportunities out of CAK to fly flights. I think CAK is a city where you can get away with only 1x or 2x flights to most major destinations and it will help profitability. I am still surprised they can't make LAS work though.

Still plenty of opportunities at CAK....
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Sometimes I think F9 might have done better with their new model at CAK than with CLE, sort of like a Midwestern version of TTN. It was WN's addition of CAK-DEN, which caused F9 to move their DEN flight to CLE, but that was before they switched to the ULCC model. Of course, that move out of CAK to CLE is what let the bigF9 build up to happen right after the UA dehub. Had F9 started their ULCC model sooner, they might have been able to compete at CAK against WN with lower fares. Likewise if UA had dehubbed a year or two earlier, WN at the early stages of the merger might have seen fit to consolidate at CLE, giving F9 plenty of room for an ULCC model at CAK.

CAK runs a tight ship wih their airport. They will not let air service from their airport deteriorate without putting up a strong fight. Sometimes I think CAK is way too focused on Southwest. CAK has plenty of opportunities for growth by legacy airlines. Potential new routes include EWR and IAH on UA, ORD and DFW on AA, MSP and JFK/LGA on DL.

Unfortunately mergers have hurt both CAK and CLE. With pax counts down considerably at both airports, both airports are fighting to stimulate passengers from essentially the same catchment area. It'd be nice if CLE and CAK could work together to stabilize the air market in NE Ohio, but what would that even entail? It's too bad a new Cleveland-Akron airport built halfway between each city 15 miles away seems like an impossibility, but would open the way for new routes either airport would never see on its own.

[Edited 2014-11-03 12:12:50]
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:04 pm

I have nothing against CAK, but WN's pax counts are down - which was what atlflyer323 asked about. I believe capacity at CAK is also down (wasn't a Chicago route eliminated?), but I never kept up with AirTran's ops.
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 155):

The capacity change might be negligible if all of CLE-ATL ends up on predominantly 717s. DL is notorious for changing schedules and aircraft up until close to departure, so this will probably change quite a bit from now until May.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 159):
What does available seating look like in this time frame? I'm going to bet it's down also. While 20% may be a significant drop since it's peak in 2012, that's what Southwest wanted, get rid of the "excess" cheap passengers. This was bound to happen at most premerger FL stations. No

I just quickly glanced at some ASM data for FL and WN. Comparing June 2012 to June 2014, it appears that ASM is actually up a hair in 2014. That makes sense considering some routes were 1:1 conversions from 717 to 737, others saw a frequency drop from 3x 717 to 2x 737. Overall capacity stayed about the same averaging out all their routes. WN is probably allowing some time for these converted FL routes to mature.
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:13 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 161):
(wasn't a Chicago route eliminated?)

Yes, MDW was doomed though from the beginning. CAK had 2 MDW start daily round trips before any passengers had the capability to interline between WN/FL. With WN being new at CAK, the loads were horrible as it was a total unknown to the loyal FL Passengers. It also didn't help that CLE had like 5-6x daily MDW on WN, numerous on UA to ORD, (And correct me if wrong), but AA as well to ORD.

As long as WN doesn't overlap routes between CLE and CAK, Both will be good. Will a certain route do better at the other airport, POSSIBLY. Remember though, WN has a monopoly on all the routes from CAK except ATL.

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 156):
In your defense though I do understand the passion/bias you have for CLE and I think you would love nothing more than WN to leave CAK

I don't like to do this, but i second this statement... As i saw in that GRR use or lose post, The loads were 82% CLE to 78% CAK.
 
ncflyer
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:21 am

I really truly don't understand why WN continues LGA and BOS from CAK instead of CLE. With a UA hub, OK, maybe. But now, no UA hub, CLE bigger business market, with positively ridiculous fares to both cities? Yeah OK CAK is cheaper place to operate but you're telling me they can't make it up with better loads and yields in a bigger city??

Is WN obligated to use that LGA slot to CAK not CLE??
 
rtalk25
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 164):
Is WN obligated to use that LGA slot to CAK not CLE??

It can use that LGA slot for any in perimeter market or service increase to DEN.

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 164):
really truly don't understand why WN continues LGA and BOS from CAK instead of CLE.

If it did CLE-BOS, it'd have to offer atleast 2x daily. The single CAK-BOS daily timed in the middle of the day but just shifted to CLE would likely flounder against UA. When even just 2x daily, WN would have to figure whether to cater the flight times to BOS based pax or CLE based pax.

Their BOS-Midwest/Mid country routes like BOS-MKE actually is timed for BOS based pax, even though MKE is the focus.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:48 am

"The Route Shop" notes that Zagreb Airport has posted a desire for CLE service.  

Maybe the old JAT flights will return.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:44 pm

Interesting LeBron - BKL factoid from Bloomberg:

In the two days leading up to the Cavs’ home opener last Thursday, Oct. 30, 74 jets landed at Burke Lakefront Airport. At least 41 of those were in Cleveland specifically for their occupants to see the Cavaliers play the New York Knicks,
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:53 pm

Awesome news about Siemans moving their medical imaging headquarters to Cleveland. Now, if they also move medical device education (the Siemans USA pres. hinted that more was coming) ... along with the Center for Health Innovation Siemans Conference Center announcement ... that's a lot of plane tickets with CLE on them.
 
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mbm3
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 168):
Awesome news about Siemans moving their medical imaging headquarters to Cleveland. Now, if they also move medical device education (the Siemans USA pres. hinted that more was coming) ... along with the Center for Health Innovation Siemans Conference Center announcement ... that's a lot of plane tickets with CLE on them.

That is great news! Perhaps this could help garner that rumored flight to CDG or some sort of service to MUC?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 167):
In the two days leading up to the Cavs’ home opener last Thursday, Oct. 30, 74 jets landed at Burke Lakefront Airport. At least 41 of those were in Cleveland specifically for their occupants to see the Cavaliers play the New York Knicks,

Why didn't I think to take a spin past BKL on Thursday? Doh!
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:56 am

^

Quoting mbm3:
That is great news! Perhaps this could help garner that rumored flight to CDG or some sort of service to MUC?

A new flight to CDG? on DL? AF? Do tell more--I haven't heard this rumor, but I like it.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:08 am

The E75's that AA will put on CLE-MIA originally showed only a Christmas seasonal schedule. They have now been extended through Feb 9th. It's probably safe to say the route has been permanently upgaged.
 
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mbm3
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 170):
A new flight to CDG? on DL? AF? Do tell more--I haven't heard this rumor, but I like it.

Yes, as part of their TATL Joint Venture, most likely moving the PIT flight to CLE. The CO flight to CDG exceeded expectations for both CO and AF, and DL has captured a lot of EU traffic via ATL. Perfect use of a 752 in my opinion.

I would not be surprised to see DL and AA add service or frequencies from CLE. B6, well, I do not know what might bve keeping them from starting BOS, MCO or FLL.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
PITrules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 172):

Yes, as part of their TATL Joint Venture, most likely moving the PIT flight to CLE.

Now why would they do that?

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 172):
The CO flight to CDG exceeded expectations for both CO and AF,

The CO flight that lasted what.... one or two summers with a hub at both ends?
FLYi
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 173):
The CO flight that lasted what.... one or two summers with a hub at both ends?

One summer followed by a wave of huge CO cuts in 2008 when the latest recession was finally recognized. I can't see moving a now well established route. CLE should be chasing their own fruit.
 
ncflyer
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:02 am

Also, I have to wonder how many CLE landers simply drive to DTW to catch DL international flights. I know I have many times it's such an easy drive and well worth avoiding a connection in say JFK or EWR. DL may well just be competing with themselves by introducing a 757 to CDG>
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting ncflyer:

Also, I have to wonder how many CLE landers simply drive to DTW to catch DL international flights. I know I have many times it's such an easy drive and well worth avoiding a connection in say JFK or EWR. DL may well just be competing with themselves by introducing a 757 to CDG

I have never ever drove to DTW or anywhere for an int'l flight---and don't know anyone who would do that---especially, if you can work while flying and connecting somewhere, but you can't if you're in a car driving. A DL to CDG would do very well, as DL would capture the Europe market. right now, if one is going from CLE to CDG, they have an equal choice of UA, AA or DL. If there were a direct from CLE, no one (except a few for loyalty reasons) would connect---and everyone I know would even pay a premium to not connect.

As for DL pulling the flight from CLE, there is probably more demand from CLE than PIT, but doesn't PIT put up a subsidy for the flight?
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:20 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 168):
Awesome news about Siemens moving their medical imaging headquarters to Cleveland.

The PD clarified their report. It's not the big Siemens headquarters in Malvern, PA that's moving to Cleveland - it's a smaller regional medical imaging 'headquarters' in Pittsburgh that's moving.

20-30 people moving from PIT to CLE shouldn't undermine DL's successful PIT-CDG flights, although it does make CLE's case for TATL another little bit better.
 
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mbm3
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 175):
I have to wonder how many CLE landers simply drive to DTW to catch DL international flights. I know I have many times it's such an easy drive and well worth avoiding a connection in say JFK or EWR. DL may well just be competing with themselves by introducing a 757 to CDG>

From what I understand, a good percentage of DL traffic from CLE to ATL connects TATL, as does DTW which many used extensively during the NW Skyteam days to avoid EWR.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 176):
As for DL pulling the flight from CLE, there is probably more demand from CLE than PIT, but doesn't PIT put up a subsidy for the flight?

I do believe there is more demand from local business in CLE (Lubrizol has a major presence in France) and IIRC PIT does provide subsidies or guarantees for the flight.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 173):
The CO flight that lasted what.... one or two summers with a hub at both ends?

And that isn't long enough to provide AF with stats on business pax?

On a different note, I just did a dropoff this morning, and it looked like they had been testing the jet bridges at Terminal D as several were at mainline height.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 178):
On a different note, I just did a dropoff this morning, and it looked like they had been testing the jet bridges at Terminal D as several were at mainline height.

Perhaps this is the relocation spot for WN    I know the UA situation with the rent, but it does not make any sense to have the nicest terminal empty vs. using B. I know they have to keep at b/c of FIS.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 178):
On a different note, I just did a dropoff this morning, and it looked like they had been testing the jet bridges at Terminal D as several were at mainline height.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm ..."

Still, D isn't that desirable a location for anybody without direct access to the ticketing area. Doesn't UA own the jetways outright? Maybe they're planning to move them.
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 178):

The subsidy ended i believe in 2012. DL is operating it on their own now
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:18 pm

^If that's the case, and its been kept, it must be making money, no? So would the CDG flight really be moved from PIT or would DL or AF find a new a/c for the route? Or is it that DL thinks it would be more profitable from CLE and hence move it?

Quoting fun2fly:
I know the UA situation with the rent, but it does not make any sense to have the nicest terminal empty vs. using B. I know they have to keep at b/c of FIS.

Re FIS, what do you mean? FIS is under "A".
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 182):
"A".

right, typo. at should be A.

So, with the convention center, RNC, etc. why is the growth association not going to offer some subsidy to make a TATL happen? TATL announcements are typically done in Q4 so we'll find out soon I'd guess.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 180):
Things that make you go "Hmmmm ..."

Or could it be that Spirit will move to D?
 
PITrules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 176):
there is probably more demand from CLE than PIT, but doesn't PIT put up a subsidy for the flight?

No, and no.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 178):

And that isn't long enough to provide AF with stats on business pax?

Yes of course, but my point was that a route that only lasts one summer could hardly be considered to have "exceeded expectations" as you indicated.


I don't see why CLE wouldn't support seasonal TATL service, but I don't think it will be DL to CDG due to the fact that DTW is fairly close, and PIT's CDG flight is even closer. Why would DL cannibalize some of their own flights?

Quoting krod031 (Reply 181):

The subsidy ended i believe in 2012. DL is operating it on their own now

2010 IIRC. The last 4 years have been without a revenue guarantee.
FLYi
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 183):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 180):
Things that make you go "Hmmmm ..."

Or could it be that Spirit will move to D?

I learned today that UA has been using Concourse D for athletic team charter flights - hence the mainliner height for the jetways. Since it's UA we're talking about, I should probably capitalize Mainliner.  
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:47 pm

^There'd be little cannibalization. Few people from CLE drive to PIT/DTW for a DL flight---if anything, it may impact flights from ATL via a connection.

If the PIT-CDG flight is doing well, I don't see why DL would move it, unless they stand to make more profit on a route from CLE.

Regarding the link you provided:

Int'l travel from PIT: 624,445
from :CLE, it was larger, (as expected): 630,116.

Dont' forget to include Akron--its 23 miles from Hopkins to the summit county line. The Census Bureau (and therefore Brookings) may not consider Akron part of the Cleveland metro, but for air traffic (and other discussions), it most certainly is.

From the data, you can't see exactly where pax are headed (e.g., LHR vs CDG vs FRA, etc.) so we can use 'all international travel' as the data point.
 
PITrules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 186):
From the data, you can't see exactly where pax are headed (e.g., LHR vs CDG vs FRA, etc.) so we can use 'all international travel' as the data point.

But you can; you need to find the link: "Where is everyone going? Click here...."

That's why I like that link, its very informative and now you can make a comparison of demand to Paris (or anywhere else significant for that matter).
FLYi
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 172):
I would not be surprised to see... AA add service or frequencies from CLE.

There are two holes in AA's CLE network, DCA and LAX. I'm wishing for both.   
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting PITrules:
But you can; you need to find the link: "Where is everyone going? Click here...."

That's why I like that link, its very informative and now you can make a comparison of demand to Paris (or anywhere else significant for that matter).

Interesting. For (2011) PIT--pax loads to CDG were 19,664 and CLE, 12,918. But the very presence of flight will draw some traffic---e.g., for a vacation, one may go to Paris because they can, if not, they'd go somewhere else, which drives up PIT's numbers over CLE's.

Also, because PIT has a direct flight and CLE doesn't, the CLE numbers aren't capturing how many people drive to PIT or DTW for a flight to CDG, as well as pax who buy a ticket to JFK (for example), and then a separate ticket to CDG. I've never driven to DTW or PIT for an int'l flight (but have connected in ATL if on DL), but I have bought two separate tickets/itineraries at times when flying abroad---one R/T CLE-NYC and one NYC-final destination. Such a trip would not give CLE the credit for the demand, but instead artificially inflate NY's numbers.

Anyone---How does one quantify the 'lost demand' from CLE's numbers---those that drive to PIT/DTW and those that book a separate itinerary for a trip between NY and abroad?
 
PITrules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:32 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 189):
but I have bought two separate tickets/itineraries at times when flying abroad---one R/T CLE-NYC and one NYC-final destination. Such a trip would not give CLE the credit for the demand, but instead artificially inflate NY's numbers.

This may be true, but it is hardly a phenomenon isolated to Cleveland. This can happen in Pittsburgh or anywhere else. People in Pittsburgh I know make the drive all the way to Dulles just to get a nonstop to Europe, and the CDG flight only captures a portion of Pittsburgh-Paris traffic, and only a tiny amount of overall Pittsburgh-Europe traffic.

If I were a Cleveland fan, what would alarm me the most is the decline in overall international travel from 2003-2011 in that report. Almost everywhere else there have been healthy increases. I do wish they would update that report though, as it is getting a bit out dated; hopefully Cleveland is doing a bit better today than in 2011. I know Pittsburgh certainly is.
FLYi
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 189):
Anyone---How does one quantify the 'lost demand' from CLE's numbers---those that drive to PIT/DTW and those that book a separate itinerary for a trip between NY and abroad?

There is a rough acceptance that traffic 'leakage', i.e. actual lost data (not people who drive to an alternative city), in international connecting city pairs where there is no non-stop service is probably about 15%, but it's hard to prove with precision. In evidential hearings the DoT allows proposers of new non-stop service to claim such flights would stimulate the market by as much as 25% based on new service and fares.
 
krod031
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:35 am

Well tomorrow well see if there is anything new for CLE or CAK. But i apologize if mentioned, but i noticed WN is bringing back the SAT. Only service between CLE-MCO/RSW for 5 Saturdays beginning 3/7 and final trips 4/4
 
krod031
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:21 pm

Well, nothing new for CAK or CLE. CLE just sees added frequencies to MDW/BWI. CAK Stays neutral.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:41 pm

The only thing of interest is that WN will be flying both CLE-PHX and CLE-LAS. I counted 15 departures on the first Monday in June.

MDW 6x
BWI 4x
BNA 3x
LAS 1x
PHX 1x

UA is actually increasing LAS to 2x daily for March, throw in Spirit, Frontier, and then WN later next spring and it would seem there's way too much capacity. Is there that much demand to LAS from CLE?
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown:
There is a rough acceptance that traffic 'leakage', i.e. actual lost data (not people who drive to an alternative city), in international connecting city pairs where there is no non-stop service is probably about 15%, but it's hard to prove with precision. In evidential hearings the DoT allows proposers of new non-stop service to claim such flights would stimulate the market by as much as 25% based on new service and fares.

Massey--are you saying the 15% represent folks who buy separate itineraries but does not include those that drive to an airport with direct int'l service? If so, what would that second number be? Also, regarding the DoT process/hearings for the 25% number, do you have specific cases or links I can refer to? (I'm writing something and would need to have official citations.)
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1492
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 194):
UA is actually increasing LAS to 2x daily for March, throw in Spirit, Frontier, and then WN later next spring and it would seem there's way too much capacity. Is there that much demand to LAS from CLE?

Used to be 4x daily on UA at times w/a 753 on the 9AM so there was traffic.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 194):
MDW 6x
BWI 4x
BNA 3x
LAS 1x
PHX 1x

Thought we might have got a STL 2x...oh well. LAS and PHX are good additions from a quality carrier whose route will stick unlike Frontier/Spirit.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5380
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 194):
The only thing of interest is that WN w

The third BNA flight comes back. That's a plus for mid-South connections. 15 dailies is the highest it's been in a few years, isn't it?

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 195):

Massey--are you saying the 15% represent folks who buy separate itineraries but does not include those that drive to an airport with direct int'l service?

I'm saying that for CLE-xxx TATL numbers, all of which is connecting traffic these days, an estimated 15% go uncounted because of data errors or broken connections, which collaterally inflates the traffic numbers on the individual legs. I have no data on driving to other cities. For allowed stimulation, take a look at this paper:

http://www.ub.edu/graap/Estimating%20potential%20long-haul.pdf

In this paper's example sigma1 (route stimulation) is defined as 1.30 (thirty percent); my recollection is the CAB and DoT would not acknowledge more than 25%.

This paper also cites other sources which should get you want you want to know.

[Edited 2014-11-10 08:35:23]
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:15 pm

^Massey--many thanks for the explanation and paper.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5380
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 7

Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:55 am

CLE/Airport-Facts.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.clevelandairport.com/Airp...Guide/About-CLE/Airport-Facts.aspx

CLE has posted end of Sep14 passenger totals.

Pretty grim reading. Year to date down 15%; September year over year down 20.9%. End of year guess for 2014 should come in around 7 million, down 2 million (about 22%) from 2013.

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