DL Pilot That Chewed Out The ATC Controller

dfwjim1 · Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:52 pm

A couple of months ago a DL pilot severely chewed out an ATC controller in Atlanta who politely pointed that the pilot's plane was taxing down the wrong taxiway. Obviously the pilot was wrong in chewing out the ATC guy so I am wondering if he (the pilot) suffered any type of punishment for his outburst?

It's funny how these type of stories get a lot of publicity when they first occur but there is not much follow up afterwards.

gordonsmall · Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):
so I am wondering if he (the pilot) suffered any type of punishment for his outburst?

Since he didn't do anything illegal, I doubt it.

Everyone has more important things to worry about.

DocLightning · Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 1):
Since he didn't do anything illegal, I doubt it.

There is illegal and then there is unprofessional. In my job (as in most) unprofessional behavior is grounds for disciplinary action.

gordonsmall · Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
There is illegal and then there is unprofessional. In my job (as in most) unprofessional behavior is grounds for disciplinary action.

And then there is the "not worth worrying about".

One guy, having a bad day, does not a disciplinary issue make. In my profession (

), it takes a pattern to signify a change in behaviour.

mjzair · Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:40 am

The fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for live atc . Net, this would not have been an issue. Was it unprofessional and unwarranted, yes, however sometimes the stress just gets to you, and you react without thinking. There was no safety issue, so just let it go. Sometimes it is easier to pick your battles, and this was just a guy having a bad day.

usflyguy · Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 1):
Since he didn't do anything illegal, I doubt it.

Everyone has more important things to worry about.

Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 3):
One guy, having a bad day, does not a disciplinary issue make.

Quoting mjzair (Reply 4):
There was no safety issue, so just let it go. Sometimes it is easier to pick your battles, and this was just a guy having a bad day.

So turning on the wrong taxiway is no biggie? Good to know.

oflanigan · Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:26 am

Keep up the good work Capt. Happy.

goboeing · Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
There is illegal and then there is unprofessional. In my job (as in most) unprofessional behavior is grounds for disciplinary action.

While I don't condone the replies he made to ATC on air, a concensus among my friends who fly in ATL often all have a least favorite controller at the ATL tower. I think Captain Happy had been accumulating his happiness for more than just that series of transmissions!

mayor · Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:15 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

There is illegal and then there is unprofessional. In my job (as in most) unprofessional behavior is grounds for disciplinary action.

Fact is, even if there was any disciplinary action taken, it was probably just between the pilot and DL, nothing that would be released to the public.

Personally, even if I knew what that action would happen to be, I don't think I would release it to the public in any fashion, mainly because what the company did or didn't do to him is none of my business.

[Edited 2014-09-14 21:17:54]

b747400erf · Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:56 am

I have heard ATL based Delta pilots, especially long haul, are some of the most disgruntled in the business. I don't know why.

Transpac787 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting mjzair (Reply 4):
There was no safety issue, so just let it go.

Taking a wrong turn on a taxiway is not a safety issue?? Just because the immediate situation is absent a negative outcome, does not equal proof-positive that there was never a safety issue.

'Taking a wrong turn' is, at its most simple form, the root cause of countless accidents, incidents, and runway incursions. Comair 5191, the 1990 runway collision in DTW, and too many others to name.

Quoting mjzair (Reply 4):
Sometimes it is easier to pick your battles, and this was just a guy having a bad day.

Part of the professionalism requisite of being Captain is maintaining your cool in all situations - not letting your emotions get the best of you, especially over something so minor as perceived or inferred bad attitude from ATC. Minimizing his borderline negligent reaction and chalking it up to a 'bad day' would be negligent in itself.

Everyone has bad days, and that's okay. Allowing it to degrade your performance in the cockpit - both physically and/or mentally - is never okay.

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
Fact is, even if there was any disciplinary action taken, it was probably just between the pilot and DL, nothing that would be released to the public.

Probably just an unpleasant trip to the chief pilot's office, haha.

That said, companies will usually keep these matters entirely confidential - at least to the extent it's in their own best interest. A recent example that comes to mind was the WN pilot that went on a tirade, with a stuck mic. Talking about the types of FA's he hated working with, etc. To my memory, Southwest released both his name as well as the corrective action they took with him.

Aesma · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:44 am

Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 3):
And then there is the "not worth worrying about".

One guy, having a bad day, does not a disciplinary issue make. In my profession ( ), it takes a pattern to signify a change in behaviour.

If nothing is done about it, then how do you realize there is a pattern ?

Max Q · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:45 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10):
Taking a wrong turn on a taxiway is not a safety issue??

Only if you cross onto an active runway. In this case it was a harmless mistake. Pilots make wrong turns on taxiways all the time and controllers make mistakes too.

Sometimes things get a little testy on the radio, big deal.

Otherwise this is a lot of fuss about nothing, hardly an uncommon event.

A storm in a teacup.

egph · Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:02 am

Is turning onto the wrong taxiway not something which could theoretically be reported to the FAA if the airport authority wished? I remember watching a programme about Dubai airport and some biz jet pilot had taxied somewhere he shouldn't have and there was a full report filed with his national pilot licensing agency?

I have not actually heard the ATC conversation, I'll search for it but I suppose a little bit of heated discussion over ATC will only get a pilot an informal warning at the boss' office at worst.

EA CO AS · Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:07 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 3):And then there is the "not worth worrying about".

One guy, having a bad day, does not a disciplinary issue make. In my profession ( ), it takes a pattern to signify a change in behaviour.
If nothing is done about it, then how do you realize there is a pattern ?

It probably resulted in a documented discussion. A second discussion for similar behavior would constitute a pattern and would likely result in a step of discipline.

777Jet · Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:36 am

Quoting mjzair (Reply 4):
The fact of the matter is, if it wasn't for live atc . Net, this would not have been an issue.

I agree that the said website and similar sources often result in many non-newsworthy events getting blown out of proportion. Consequently, this is why I have no problem with UA pilots not having CH9 on. All it takes is the wrong person to hear the wrong thing and then a new thread begins...

mjzair · Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:05 am

Comparing turning down a wrong taxiway to the comair acciden in Lexington is not apples to apples. Turning downnthe wrong taxiway when there is no traffic conflict is a benign error that happens quite often, and I would challenge you to show me ine FAA pilot violation for someone turning down the wrong taxiway that was not closed or cause a traffic conflict.

Superfly · Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 9):
I have heard ATL based Delta pilots, especially long haul, are some of the most disgruntled in the business. I don't know why.

How about Delta long-haul passengers?

Quoting dfwjim1 (Thread starter):

He may have got a write up, that's about it.

Sorry but no new job opening in-case that is why you started this thread.

D L X · Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 16):
Comparing turning down a wrong taxiway to the comair acciden in Lexington is not apples to apples. Turning downnthe wrong taxiway when there is no traffic conflict is a benign error that happens quite often

There was no traffic in the 5191 accident either. Not so benign there.

readytotaxi · Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Hand on heart we ALL have a bad day @ the office now and then.
Be honest with yourself, you could have done it better, take it on the chin,learn and move forward.

bond007 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 16):
Turning downnthe wrong taxiway when there is no traffic conflict is a benign error

The outcome was benign ...

Quoting mjzair (Reply 16):
and I would challenge you to show me ine FAA pilot violation for someone turning down the wrong taxiway that was not closed or cause a traffic conflict.

I'm not suggesting anything should happen in this case, but I'm sure there are a few, such as 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions, and a good FAA lawyer would always fall back on FAR 91.13, which is a catch-all for anything you do that isn't covered anywhere else.

Jimbo

727LOVER · Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
How about Delta long-haul passengers?

....and this is supposed to mean what???

WF2BNN · Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:52 pm

I have to jump in here.

Has been multiple post stating they turned onto the WRONG taxiway, they did NOT. It was an Y intersection, where two taxiways let to the taxiway he was cleared onto. The controller had in his head that he would to the one with a 90 deg. turn, while the other and smarter option was one with a 45 deg. turn. The pilot chose the smarter, faster option leading him to get onto the cleared taxiway faster than the ground ATC controller imagined - putting him closer to another AC - but nowhere close...

Nothing illegal was done (and yes ppl taxi onto wrong taxiway DAILY, no big deal. Taxi onto active runway w/o clearance, BIG DEAL!)

The DL pilot just had a bad day.... He should have just stopped and apologized. However he had the bigger ego....

usa4624 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:53 pm

Just because it happens all the time doesn't make it safe...

I remember an incident with Comair in Lexington KY that could have been prevented had the controller mention the plane turning onto the wrong taxiway.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Only if you cross onto an active runway. In this case it was a harmless mistake. Pilots make wrong turns on taxiways all the time and controllers make mistakes too

Mir · Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 22):
Has been multiple post stating they turned onto the WRONG taxiway, they did NOT. It was an Y intersection, where two taxiways let to the taxiway he was cleared onto. The controller had in his head that he would to the one with a 90 deg. turn, while the other and smarter option was one with a 45 deg. turn. The pilot chose the smarter, faster option

And you know this how?

-Mir

WF2BNN · Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 22):
Has been multiple post stating they turned onto the WRONG taxiway, they did NOT. It was an Y intersection, where two taxiways let to the taxiway he was cleared onto. The controller had in his head that he would to the one with a 90 deg. turn, while the other and smarter option was one with a 45 deg. turn. The pilot chose the smarter, faster option

And you know this how?

-Mir

I know it after it was explained to me by one of his colleagues commuting on my jumpseat.

And it is clear from the recordings. Listen and look.

Listen (the text says that he is on 37, but it is spot 3S on the bottom.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQNAi8HBDY0

Look at the taxi diagram for ATL:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1409/00026AD.PDF

So he is on 3S (southernmost point of Ramp 3 before taxiway L), his clerance that he is given 30 seconds out in the video is; Delta 2422 Behind the MD88 from you right, (taxi to) Runway 27R via (taxiway) M and hold short of (taxiway) D. There is no clearance given on how to get from 3S to taxiway M. So he can go anyway he finds best. His best options are L5 (what the controller expected him to) or - the smarter one with no 90 degree turn (the one he selected) Taxiway L and U to M. He did nothing wrong, end of story. However - he should not have replied that way. His reply should have been to repeat the taxi instructions given. "Delta 2422 27R M short of D behind the 88"

mcdu · Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Only if you cross onto an active runway. In this case it was a harmless mistake. Pilots make wrong turns on taxiways all the time and controllers make mistakes too.

It was not harmless and the DL pilot reacted in an extremely unprofessional manner. At a minimum he needs to attend some type of anger counseling as no reasonable person reacts that way to the comment from the controller. He's is a candidate for physical and mental assessment. While I have no reason to suspect this particular pilot I have known others that have had issues similar to this that revealed other problems with alcohol when the research was done as to why someone reacted they did. This could have been masking something larger going on his life.

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 25):
There is no clearance given on how to get from 3S to taxiway M.

His taxi instructions didn't include a taxi via "L". With 3S intersecting at M he should have made the 90 on M. From what it sounds he was taxiing on L for a bit and not at the Y as you describe. You don't have the authority to alter a clearance for ease, unless you request and are given clearance.

mjzair · Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 18):
There was no traffic in the 5191 accident either. Not so benign there

Right, and they turned down the wrong runway, not the wrong taxiway, thats why you cannot make a compariaon.

Mir · Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 25):
There is no clearance given on how to get from 3S to taxiway M. So he can go anyway he finds best.

That's not really true - he's supposed to go via the most direct route. You are correct that in this case either L5 or U, but the controller has likely been working at ATL for a while and has seen plenty of aircraft use either of those taxiways - do you really think he'd call him out for doing something that he sees all the time? Far more likely he meant to use U but missed the turn and continued down L. Not a huge deal since there are plenty of opportunities to get over to M, but still an error that he could have expected ATC to question him on.

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 25):
the smarter one with no 90 degree turn (the one he selected) Taxiway L and U to M.

Actually, there's only no 90-degree turn if you're coming off the eastern taxilane from the ramp. If you're coming off the western one then you're staring L5 straight in the face and then that's the smarter one to use as it has to 90-degree turn.

-Mir

WF2BNN · Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 27):
His taxi instructions didn't include a taxi via "L". With 3S intersecting at M he should have made the 90 on M. From what it sounds he was taxiing on L for a bit and not at the Y as you describe. You don't have the authority to alter a clearance for ease, unless you request and are given clearance.

Again, he had no clearance on how to get to M. He did the shortest/smartest route. If the controller needed him to use L5, he should have told him so - not assumed. End of story.

Often do we get taxi instructions that gives us freedom on what route to take. ex. in LGA going to gate C21, ground will instruct us to taxi to the gate via Bravo. Giving us the choice of Mike and November to enter the ramp. Sometimes you also get the instruction - "taxi to the gate", or "taxi to Runway XX" - leaving it completely up to you how to get there (as long as you do not enter a runway/restricted area)

twal1011727 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting d l x (Reply 18):
There was no traffic in the 5191 accident either. Not so benign there.

Food for thought....if there was other traffic out there, either waiting to takeoff or land, this accident might not have happened.

KD

DiamondFlyer · Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
That's not really true - he's supposed to go via the most direct route.

According to what regulation?

-DiamondFlyer

Mir · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 29):
Often do we get taxi instructions that gives us freedom on what route to take. ex. in LGA going to gate C21, ground will instruct us to taxi to the gate via Bravo. Giving us the choice of Mike and November to enter the ramp.

But not to move over to A at K and continue on A the rest of the way.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 31):
According to what regulation?

According to common sense and good operating practice.

-Mir

DiamondFlyer · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
According to common sense and good operating practice.

Got it, apparently that only applies to pilots, as it wouldn't be common to assign a pilot how to get to said taxiway from an ATC standpoint. Clearly, only the pilot was in the wrong here (sarcasm).

-DiamondFlyer

D L X · Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 27):
Right, and they turned down the wrong runway, not the wrong taxiway, thats why you cannot make a compariaon.

He turned onto the wrong runway after failing to take the correct taxiway. I didn't think that was in dispute.

silentbob · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
Personally, even if I knew what that action would happen to be, I don't think I would release it to the public in any fashion, mainly because what the company did or didn't do to him is none of my business.

It's one of those things that a lot of people could probably dig up if they were inclined to do so, but it really isn't any of our business. If we're going to string up every pilot that acts unprofessionally, that shortage is going to come even faster than expected.

Quoting WF2BNN (Reply 22):

Good info, thanks for sharing.

Max Q · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 16):
Comparing turning down a wrong taxiway to the comair acciden in Lexington is not apples to apples. Turning downnthe wrong taxiway when there is no traffic conflict is a benign error that happens quite often, and I would challenge you to show me ine FAA pilot violation for someone turning down the wrong taxiway that was not closed or cause a traffic conflict.

Exactly.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 26):
It was not harmless and the DL pilot reacted in an extremely unprofessional manner. At a minimum he needs to attend some type of anger counseling as no reasonable person reacts that way to the comment from the controller. He's is a candidate for physical and mental assessment. While I have no reason to suspect this particular pilot I have known others that have had issues similar to this that revealed other problems with alcohol when the research was done as to why someone reacted they did. This could have been masking something larger going on his life.

So a Pilot makes a wrong turn on a taxiway, has a few words with a controller and he's an unstable alcoholic needing 'assessment'

What incredible nonsense, you have no idea what you are talking about.

stlgph · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:22 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
What incredible nonsense, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Agreed. Many people blow gaskets quite often and then 5 minutes later they're buying you a beer. It's called "work."
Working in financial news I can't tell you the number of times I've had ceo's say far worse things to me because we reported on something they did. Some of y'all's favorite airline people, included

usa4624 · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:24 pm

Both are the same in the fact the aircraft did not follow instructions properly.

When you work as a controller, then you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
What incredible nonsense, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Amsterdam · Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:41 pm

So they took a wrong turn. No need to blow this up. Did they almost hit another aircraft?
Much bigger screw ups than this happen all the time, every day.

His attitude was not good of course. And he will probably be asked to behave in a better way in the future.
No need for punishment and stuff like that. If he keeps acting like that then the situation will become more worrying.

mcdu · Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
So a Pilot makes a wrong turn on a taxiway, has a few words with a controller and he's an unstable alcoholic needing 'assessment'
What incredible nonsense, you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you read what I wrote I said I don't have specifics in this case. However, an unreasonable response such as his to a reasonable ATC query can be the sign of something else. Maybe an Atlanta controller stole his lawnmower or his wife . An airline pilot should not have the type of reaction he had.

His reaction should raise enough concern from his Flight Operations team to take a deep dive into the root cause of his flying off the handle. It could be many things. All I said is that I have personally seen this reaction when someone is having issues with alcohol. Didn't say this pilot had that issue, only that they need to find out what is causing him to be unreasonable.

Or maybe he was just confirming the old bumper sticker about Will Rogers and a Delta pilot........

claytonk · Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 40):
Or maybe he was just confirming the old bumper sticker about Will Rogers and a Delta pilot........

For those of us not in the know - could you please share?

mayor · Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting usa4624 (Reply 38):
When you work as a controller, then you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Except he wasn't replying to YOU.

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