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konrad
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Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:57 am

The flight time between most places in Europe are destinations in India is between 7 and 8 hours. This seems to be a perfect distance for the 757 aircraft. Have Indian airlines ever used this type or have any European airlines used 757s to smaller destinations in India? If not, why?
 
anyong
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:05 am

I imagine because routes like LHR-DEL/BOM are extremely dense. That said, in a fantasy world I wonder if thinner routes to not Delhi or Bombay would theoretically work. Of course who really operates 757s in Europe aside from holiday operators? BA?

[Edited 2014-09-18 00:07:34]
 
benjjk
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:06 am

EK dominates India-Europe travel these days, and we all know they don't have any 757s. Other airlines seem to prefer the 777 or 747s there - suggesting the demand needs something bigger.

Indian airlines aren't my forte but I think historically they haven't had much luck in Europe, and I doubt a 757 would fix that.
 
anyong
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:08 am

If airlines could, they would send 380s to India so the demand seems to be incredibly huge.

[Edited 2014-09-18 00:09:27]
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:10 am

I think Goa got some UK B757 charters sometime ago, then which airline will fly the 75 to India ?! BA got no more of 'em and wouldn't fly the type due weight restriction. Other major airlines didn't even operate the type !
 
Andy33
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:35 am

Quoting anyong (Reply 1):
Of course who really operates 757s in Europe aside from holiday operators? BA?

BA once had lots of 757s, now there are only three which fly for their French subsidiary OpenSkies. BA bought them for their European short-haul routes and domestic flights and never used them outside this sphere under their own name. Most European airlines never had any to start with, and the next largest fleets were with the charter operators who valued the ability to lift lots of people off short holiday airport runways.

Bear in mind that the "medium length, thin international route" wasn't what Boeing developed or originally sold the 757 for. It was only after they had been flying for some time that it became clear this was a role they were good at.
Next, flying between Europe and India was and is regulated by bilateral Air Service Agreements between India and the individual European countries.
There are restrictions on which cities can be served at each end and the number of weekly flights. This encouraged the use of widebodied aircraft to get the most value out of each permitted flight.
Finally, it is only relatively recently that Indian airports, other than those serving the biggest cities, developed the infrastructure to support international flights. I don't just mean Immigration and Customs, but ground services, catering suppliers and so on, not to mention the improvement or total replacement of the terminals to international standards.
 
smbukas
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:11 am

It makes no sense. If you fly to India, EK and EY are your main competitors. India is a huge population so you have to have extra low cost per seat. You cannot compete with 757, when others are flying with 777, 747 and 380.
 
LH422
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:58 am

Lufthansa/PrivatAir actually fly 737 to PNQ.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:58 am

Quoting andy33 (Reply 5):
BA bought them for their European short-haul routes and domestic flights and never used them outside this sphere under their own name.

Never is a strong word. BA B757s operated across the Atlantic. Started in Jan 1995 with two aircraft. One operated GLA-JFK-BOS and the other BHX-JFK- Toronto. It didn't last long though and finished at the end of summer 1998
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting andy33 (Reply 5):
BA bought them for their European short-haul routes and domestic flights and never used them outside this sphere under their own name.

Didn't BA ever do even one TATL route with their 757? I could have sworn is was like GLA-JFK, MAN-JFK or like that?

Quoting andy33 (Reply 5):
Most European airlines never had any to start with,

Since this thread is labeled no 757 service to India, look around the whole region, the Europeran airlines didn't have the 757s and still quite a long route from London. But I know Royal Nepal operated 757s into India on & off,

Here is a Royal Nepal 757 at KTM, that just come in from Mumbai according to the caption. I could not find any Royal Nepal 757s at any Indian airport in the data base.
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Photo © Rajesh Changela



but MH, TG, CX didn't buy the 757s either, those would have been good routes for a 757, except they can fill 777s instead.

SQ flew the 757, I'm guessing that the 757 may have made it to India as well.
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Quoting andy33 (Reply 5):
Bear in mind that the "medium length, thin international route" wasn't what Boeing developed or originally sold the 757 for. It was only after they had been flying for some time that it became clear this was a role they were good at.

If Boeing had known what the 757 would end up becoming back when they started selling them, I expect just about every carrier large enough, would have lined up to buy some for their fleet.

By the time the real capabilities of the 757 were realized, it was too late and now the remaining ones will be kept in good condition for Hawaii flights & short to mid TATL. I really loves this aircraft, in fact I'm going to fly one this month, yeah!
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aviatorcraig
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:07 pm

Back in the early to mid 2000's the now defunct Air Slovakia operated a single 757 in a 229 seat layout between Birmingham (UK) and Amritsar via Bratislava.

According to the following linked news item from 2006 they also started operations from London Stansted:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6047262.stm
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frostyj
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:20 pm

Quoting konrad (Thread starter):

Nowhere in India would sustain a 757 service from here.
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting anyong (Reply 1):

Its 4,000 miles to Delhi.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=BFS-DEL&R=9380nm%40LHR&MS=wls&DU=mi

[Edited 2014-09-18 05:23:24]
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roseflyer
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:11 pm

The 757 would not work well for Europe-India. The main European markets are all too far from India. DEL to Germany is at the very edge of the 757 range. France or the UK are too far. The winds for the westbound flight would be tough. The eastbound flights could be tough too since flights to India can require significant amounts of fuel for alternates and diversions. Historically Indian airports have been slow to adopt Cat II and Cat III landing capability, so weather can significantly impact operations and require airplanes to carry more fuel, which is not an option with a 757 near MTOW.

Air India was a huge A310 operator, so that filled any need that a 757 would have been used for. Other airlines within India could not fly internationally when the 757 was in production.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:15 pm

Doesn't Turkmenistan also do this?

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AF1565
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:21 pm

Back in 2011, Comtel Air started BHX-VIE-ATQ with a Boeing 757-200 operated by Mint Airways. Needless to say, after few months of operating that route Comtel Air ran out of money and even asked passengers to pay £20,000 for fuel to get them back to BHX.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Very simple. The 757 was never very popular in Europe apart from BA and IB and some charter/leisure carriers, and the carriers that did operate the 757 acquired it mainly for routes within Europe.

Even if the 757 had the range for Europe-India which it doesn't, at least not from the gateways of the carriers that did operate the type (LHR-DEL is several hundred miles further than any transatlantic route operated by the 757), it would have been unpopular in those markets with virtually all other carriers operating widebodies.
 
AirIndia111
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:27 pm

Finnair has operated scheduled 757 service to DEL in the past. There are some pics of their 757 landing at DEL in 2013.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
Air India was a huge A310 operator, so that filled any need that a 757 would have been used for. Other airlines within India could not fly internationally when the 757 was in production.

I seem to recall reading that Air India or Indian Airlines or both wanted 757s in the early 80s, but due to budgetary constraints, there were no funds (at the same time AI wanted L1011-500s, which could not get funding). However, I am sure domestic and regional routes were intended, rather than long haul.
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:47 pm

Not European carriers, but ET and CZ have flown/do fly the 757 to India.



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T8KE0FF
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 14):
Doesn't Turkmenistan also do this?

Yes. 99.9% of passengers on BHX-ASB go onwards to India. I've never known it to go out empty either, they must be doing pretty well with this strategy! A mini-Emirates almost!
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AirIndia111
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 19):
Not European carriers, but ET and CZ have flown/do fly the 757 to India.

Air Astana has also flown their 757's to DEL.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:18 pm

Astana isn't in Europe.
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angad84
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 4):
I think Goa got some UK B757 charters sometime ago

Goa gets the odd Russian 757 flight as well. I've seen Nordwind and UTAir at Dabolim multiple times. Of course, they're not nearly as exciting as the Transaero 744 that comes in most mornings...

Cheers
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AirIndia111
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 22):
Astana isn't in Europe.

Neither is Ethiopia or China. I was referring to DIJJKKIJK's comment about "Rest of the World" 757 operators to DEL.
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:59 pm

LON-DEL is about 4300 miles, not sure if a 757 could do this without penalty or if westward winds back to LON are bad. Add in the density, and I am sure they get enough cargo too (especially considering how many checked bags are brought on flights to india).

I guess Easter or south east europe might work. The other thought is SE asia to india. I could see BKK to a secondary Indian city working.
 
frostyj
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:24 pm

Its kind of like putting a 757 on a route from the British Isles to Los Angeles.
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par13del
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:42 pm

I think the better question would be where are the European carriers using all those A321's that they bought to replace their 757's.
 
sandycx
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:46 pm

Not exactly India, but Transavia did fly AMS-KTM for a few years in early 2000s. I don't know if they blocked out any seats though.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans...d=77ffb653b905947752467760ec0ead63
 
tonyban
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:45 pm

I flew LHR-ATQ via Tashkent back in 2004 on Uzbek. The Tashkent to ATQ route was serviced by a 757.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting sandycx (Reply 28):
Not exactly India, but Transavia did fly AMS-KTM for a few years in early 2000s. I don't know if they blocked out any seats though.

Royal Nepal Airlines (now Nepal Airlines) operated their 2 757s LGW-FRA-DXB-KTM for several years in the 1990s. Based on A.net photos it looks like LGW and FRA were dropped around 2000. It was once a week if memory correct. They also used the 757s on their KTM-India routes so you could have flown on a 757 all the way Europe-India with a connection at KTM then.

RA still use the 757s on many of their Asian routes. One of them (1st photo below) is the only factory-built 757 combi. I think it's mainly been operated in all-passenger configuration.

Photos of both RA 757s at FRA and LGW. "Royal" has since been deleted from the name following abolition of the monarchy in Nepal a few years ago.


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Gr8Circle
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting LH422 (Reply 7):
Lufthansa/PrivatAir actually fly 737 to PNQ.

It's an all Biz class config and only because PNQ is a restricted airport with a short runway.....if those restrictions were not there, I'm sure LH would have operated at least an A330 to PNQ.....
 
9w748capt
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting T8KE0FF (Reply 20):
Yes. 99.9% of passengers on BHX-ASB go onwards to India. I've never known it to go out empty either, they must be doing pretty well with this strategy! A mini-Emirates almost!

I would LOVE to see a TR of this route. Horrible reviews from the Punjabi passengers as far as I can see on skytrax, but what a random route. Who on earth thought of connecting BHX and ATQ via ASB? Genius!
 
DTWLAX
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 31):
It's an all Biz class config and only because PNQ is a restricted airport with a short runway.....if those restrictions were not there, I'm sure LH would have operated at least an A330 to PNQ.....

It is not an all Biz flight. It started off as an all Biz flight but was later switched to Biz and Y. And I believe it is still operating the Y configured plane.
 
spr773
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 31):

That apart PNQ has very strict restrictions on the runway as it is basically an Indian Air Force base. so the civilian airport is very tiny although air traffic is increasing steadily. PrivatAir/LH combine and AI Express are the only two international flights.
Actually the airport does see Russian transporters come and go but then I really wonder why they won't permit an A330 at least. I am sure with so many German companies around LH would definitely fly in the A330 workhorse. Apart from that as compared to BOM PNQ is very very tiny. That means shorter immigration queues and smaller times to come on the baggage belts. People actually prefer this rather than going all the way to BOM and get yourself in that sea of people.
I had also a report that AF team had visited for a feasibility study on a direct to ORY/CDG but it all fizzled out...courtesy Indian Air Force I think.
 
LH422
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 33):
It is not an all Biz flight. It started off as an all Biz flight but was later switched to Biz and Y. And I believe it is still operating the Y configured plane.

Yes, you can book Y through Lufthansa's website.
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 24):
Quoting frostyj (Reply 22):
Astana isn't in Europe.

Neither is Ethiopia or China. I was referring to DIJJKKIJK's comment about "Rest of the World" 757 operators to DEL.


The topic of the thread is 'Why no 757 service to India'. It didn't seem to be restricted to European carriers.

and people have also discussed SQ and Nepal Airlines, not exactly European carriers either.
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting sandycx (Reply 28):
Not exactly India, but Transavia did fly AMS-KTM for a few years in early 2000s. I don't know if they blocked out any seats though.

Which made a technical stop in SHJ on both ways.  
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Viscount724
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 33):
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 31):
It's an all Biz class config and only because PNQ is a restricted airport with a short runway.....if those restrictions were not there, I'm sure LH would have operated at least an A330 to PNQ.....

It is not an all Biz flight. It started off as an all Biz flight but was later switched to Biz and Y. And I believe it is still operating the Y configured plane.

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yyz717
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 18):
I seem to recall reading that Air India or Indian Airlines or both wanted 757s in the early 80s,

Yes, Indian Airlines placed a preliminary order for 6x 752's in the mid-80's, which was then cancelled. These would have been for domestic routes. All 6 were picked up by Republic just before the NW merger. They were operated briefly by Republic and NW and had RR engines (vs the NW fleet of PW 752 engines).
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bobnwa
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting konrad (Thread starter):
This seems to be a perfect distance for the 757 aircraft

I don't think you will ever see a 757 from anwhere in europe as it would be money loser from day one
e
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 37):
Which made a technical stop in SHJ on both ways.

You answered my question, before I asked it, thank you!  
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lweber557
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:38 am

Okay so the 757 is an amazing and beautiful aircraft. In the top 5 of my favorite planes. Yes its a bummer they are slowly going and boeing aren't making new ones. But seriously get over it people. Every day there is a new thread associated with the 57. Stop making these threads its annoying and pointless!!!!! I
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DocLightning
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:42 am

Quoting konrad (Thread starter):
The flight time between most places in Europe are destinations in India is between 7 and 8 hours. This seems to be a perfect distance for the 757 aircraft. Have Indian airlines ever used this type or have any European airlines used 757s to smaller destinations in India? If not, why?

Consider what airlines currently in Europe have the 757. Um...Condor and TUI.

But even when BA had them, it's pushing the range of the 757 without winglets on a very dense set of routes that can fill a lot more seats. The smaller airlines in Europe didn't have 757s. The 757 wasn't really designed for the European "domestic" market, Boeing used the 737 for that.
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HELyes
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:59 am

Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 17):
Finnair has operated scheduled 757 service to DEL in the past. There are some pics of their 757 landing at DEL in 2013.

It wasn't a scheduled 757 service, their 757 replaced a big Airbus to DEL occasionally. Finnair 757 was regulary used for charter flights to Goa, their 757s are now replaced by A321ER.

AMD was used for tech stops on their 757 charter routes to SE Asia. Here's a Finnair 757 bird (eagle!) strike video from Ahmedabad (AMD) India, you can hear how distressed the pilot is, in Finnish and English:

http://youtu.be/Vn3IUSVG1lg


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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:41 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 39):
Yes, Indian Airlines placed a preliminary order for 6x 752's in the mid-80's, which was then cancelled. These would have been for domestic routes. All 6 were picked up by Republic just before the NW merger. They were operated briefly by Republic and NW and had RR engines (vs the NW fleet of PW 752 engines).

Indian Airlines merely placed a letter of intent with Boeing for the 757. And they were planning to order 18 of them, not 6.

The order was never made, the 757 LOI was cancelled and Indian Airlines decided to buy the A320 instead.
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LH422
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
Consider what airlines currently in Europe have the 757. Um...Condor and TUI.

And Condor only has 757-300 that don't really have enough range for such routes.
 
sandycx
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 31):
Royal Nepal Airlines (now Nepal Airlines) operated their 2 757s LGW-FRA-DXB-KTM for several years in the 1990s. Based on A.net photos it looks like LGW and FRA were dropped around 2000. It was once a week if memory correct. They also used the 757s on their KTM-India routes so you could have flown on a 757 all the way Europe-India with a connection at KTM then.

RA still use the 757s on many of their Asian routes. One of them (1st photo below) is the only factory-built 757 combi. I think it's mainly been operated in all-passenger configuration.

Photos of both RA 757s at FRA and LGW. "Royal" has since been deleted from the name following abolition of the monarchy in Nepal a few years ago.

RA flew KTM-DXB-FRA-LGW twice weekly and KTM-DXB-FRA-ORY once a week. I'm supposed to have flown the route as a toddler!
 
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Spiderguy252
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:33 am

AI leased a 757 from 'Golden International Airlines' for a very short period of time. The aircraft was registered TC-GLA and effectively based in KWI.

It operated a triangular KWI-COK-MAA-KWI routing.

That's as close as we've come to a scheduled 757 service out here.
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JOYA380B747
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RE: Why No 757 Service To India

Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:18 am

Turkmenistan airlines serves DEL with a 757 as of now.

India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.

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