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Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:19 am

Even though Sept 22 is already past, I archived the previous thread and made a new one since the discussion seems to go on.

Air France Strike 15-22 September (by mercure1 Aug 28 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Please continue here.
Veulliez continuer ici.

Ben Soriano
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andrefranca
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:37 am

GUYS YOU HAVE NO CLUE, how I am happy on thinking I wont be flying air france anymore..... Im in martinique right now! it was after tears that they finally decided to pay for a hotel for me, they left me stranded 2 days in PTP and other 2 days in CAY.

I will think 2, 3 times before cursing Brazil, because there the law says they must provide all the pax needs and they DO provide,,,,,, which doesnt seem to exist in europe? I mean these islands are europe and I had a sort of meltdown and finally they made a move!
Andre F. :blockhead:
 
lx2iah
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:58 am

The strike has been extended through 9/30. Not good !!!
 
DAL763ER
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:25 am

It would be so funny if AF has to suddenly furlough many of them because they've lost too much money. I don't get how those pilots can be so selfish and strike for so long. Does it not occur to them that, in the long run, they will not win?
 
silentbob
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 3):
I don't get how those pilots can be so selfish and strike for so long. Does it not occur to them that, in the long run, they will not win?

The point of a strike is to force management to give in to your demands. Until they achieve some level of agreement from management, they should continue to strike. I respect that they are standing up for their principles and not just conducting a strike for symbolism.
 
DAL763ER
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:55 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 4):
The point of a strike is to force management to give in to your demands. Until they achieve some level of agreement from management, they should continue to strike. I respect that they are standing up for their principles and not just conducting a strike for symbolism.

That part I get. I don't get how this will help them achieve their principles when the company goes down due to their own stupidity and selfishness. Or if the company has to reduce their pay for a while because, you know, all its cash has been thrown out the window. Will they strike again in 3 months because their pay is reduced for lack of funds? This is not really acceptable.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting lx2iah (Reply 2):
The strike has been extended through 9/30. Not good !!!

Then the title of the thread needs to be changed to "Air France Strike 15-30 September Part 2"
 
andrej
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:47 am

Some updates:

- Transport Minister (Vidalies) states that AF has 'scrapped the Transavia Europe project' (RMC radio).
- AF has previously postponed the project by three months, but now its seems that the entire remodeling has been cancelled.

- AF says that its 'premature to say the plan has been scrapped'.
- AF to make a statement today (24-SEP).

Interesting development indeed. Surely AF management will work on an update model as it has to address high costs.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:30 am

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
- Transport Minister (Vidalies) states that AF has 'scrapped the Transavia Europe project' (RMC radio).
- AF has previously postponed the project by three months, but now its seems that the entire remodeling has been cancelled.

- AF says that its 'premature to say the plan has been scrapped'.
- AF to make a statement today (24-SEP).

Interesting development indeed. Surely AF management will work on an update model as it has to address high costs

A counter measure would be that the limitations to the growth of Transavia France would be unrestricted. Right now there are limitations to that growth. Let's hope that this offer is at least enough to get the airline flying again.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
- Transport Minister (Vidalies) states that AF has 'scrapped the Transavia Europe project' (RMC radio).

There is a link now on reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...ike-minister-idUSKCN0HJ0DT20140924

So no German Transavia base for sure.

Hopefully this development won't give the LH guys any bad ideas, I really want to see Eurowings take off.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:25 am

Seems like a daily routine now, in the morning concessions on Transavia are made, and in the afternoon they are denied. Dutch news is reporting the negotations have failed. AF states they will not give in to the demands to terminate the Transavia Europe project.

The Dutch FNV union is surprised by the hard line the management is setting in the negotations. They stated if KLM negotions have the same mindset as Air France, actions at KL will be a possibility as well. Probably just a way of adding more pressure to the situation.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 10):
AF states they will not give in to the demands to terminate the Transavia Europe project

  
Juniac is offering to postpone Transavia expansion until the end of the year (Le Monde interview), to give all parties involved time to negotiate.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 5):
That part I get. I don't get how this will help them achieve their principles when the company goes down due to their own stupidity and selfishness.

Well as far as they are concerned what management is doing will also spell the demise of AF, so what's the difference?
One side - management - is respected as they are professionals who know what they are doing and are not responsible for the conditions now requiring drastic adjustments in the business model, the other side - unions - are generally regarded as lazy, greedy folks who only care about themselves.
Now can we get them all to sit down and discuss how things will work out versus one side demanding and forcing the issue?
In the previous version I said government should step in, get rid of management on both sides, bring in a third party and commence negotiations, does France in situations like this allow an independent arbitrator or some such functionality? Concessions by either side now is going to be huge, neither side seems to be willing to budge during the strike as both now see continuation as a sign of strength, and both are also aware that pax have no alternative but to come back to AF once the dust has setteled. Now if you think that last comment is also tongue in cheek, just read what both sides are saying, if they thought customers were the key the strike would not be taking place.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:22 pm

So the SNPL pilot union confirmed that the strike will go ahead until at least 30-SEP (urges its members to strike till that date). Maybe its a pressure tactic on a government to pressure the management.

SNPL stated that it wants for AF to 'scrap Transavia Europe'

Not sure about following, (cue French speaking members), but it seems that SNPL continues negotiations in regards to 'Transavia France'.

La grève est prolongée jusqu’au 30 septembre en conséquence de la menace de dénonciation de l’accord de création de Transavia France.

Tomorrow (25-SEP), AF plans to operate 47% of scheduled flights.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:37 pm

The situation is moving rather fast at this moment.
The pilots unions are now caught between a government demand - which they could ignore - and the increasingly violent reaction from the other categories of personnel ( they're still demonstrating outside the AF Headquarters at this moment).

Of course, now the management is playing a *closed door* game and let the pilot unions ask, more and more vocally, for a resumption of the *negociations* ( as if there ever was any on this strike    )... No reply so far...

Quoting andrej (Reply 13):
Not sure about following, (cue French speaking members), but it seems that SNPL continues negotiations in regards to 'Transavia France'.
La grève est prolongée jusqu’au 30 septembre en conséquence de la menace de dénonciation de l’accord de création de Transavia France.

This is one aspect that I have been talking for a while : There has been an agreement between the management and the unions regarding the *Transavia France perimeter* ( in this case how many airplanes ).
That agreement would allow Transavia France to grow to 37 airplanes from the initial 14. There was, in the agreement, a possibility for AF pilots to work there on a voluntary basis without loss of salary ( albeit with more flying hours). It was for both parties a win-win deal .. until the SNPL launched its idea of a unique pool of AF pilots flying all the Group aircraft at AF rates, which was not exactly in the interpretation of the agreement.

(Btw, one of their arguments was that Transavia could lower much of its other costs by subcontracting handling / checking / maintenance...etc... in essence seeing nothinhg wrong in depriving other categories of AF personnel the jobs they had... Funny how de-mlocalization is more acceptable for others  &nbsp 

Three days ago, Juniac made his ultimatum : I postpone the creation of Transavia Europe until year's end. We discuss it.... If no agreement, I will denounce the Transavia France agreement.
As a matter of fact, it's quite a potent threat : AF would be forced by law to abide to the agreement for 15 months... but as it's already been implemented a few times, nothing would change : no more bridges for AF pilots, fewer promotions... etc... On the other hand, nothing could prevent Juniac to set up a new Transavia France, with the personnel he wants from wherever he desires. And at the end of the legal 15 months, easy to merge the two entities...somebody would have lost... I wonder who ?   

The saddest part of this obscene story is that a population of educated people could not see that Transavia - and whatever word follows the name - is one of the ways for AFKL to make money : on one hand, fight for the leasure / VFR part of the traffic... at the same time moving pilots to Transavia without loss of revenue AND in so doing, decrease the short-to-meduium haul pilot population at AF, thus increasing their productivity.

Obviously that was too much asking from a group of spoiled brats.
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:43 pm

Anyone have insight as to why DL wouldn't give some assistance on routes like LAX/JFK-CDG?
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:06 pm

Statistic information for today as of 6pm.

Scheduled: 818
Cancelled: 575

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
- Transport Minister (Vidalies) states that AF has 'scrapped the Transavia Europe project' (RMC radio).
- AF has previously postponed the project by three months, but now its seems that the entire remodeling has been cancelled.
- AF says that its 'premature to say the plan has been scrapped'.

At end French government will dictate, as social issues rest in its hand. If Mr. Juniac does not like, he can resign or lose confidence of government which end same way for him.

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 11):
Juniac is offering to postpone Transavia expansion until the end of the year (Le Monde interview), to give all parties involved time to negotiate.

Repeat of old proposal, and does not solve anything. Just kick the ball down road. Time to solve issue today not ignore.

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 15):
Anyone have insight as to why DL wouldn't give some assistance on routes like LAX/JFK-CDG?

Probably does not want to create waves with DALPA. DL pilots as part of SPA (Skyteam Pilots Alliance) have been supporting their AF colleagues.
Various foreign pilots on layovers participate and walk in demonstration to show support.
French pilot union SNPL is sister association of US ALPA
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OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
Well as far as they are concerned what management is doing will also spell the demise of AF, so what's the difference?

The difference is if these pilots will fly for EasyJet or Transavia. With Transavia probably feeding into the Long Haul network. So there certainly is a difference.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
The situation is moving rather fast at this moment.
The pilots unions are now caught between a government demand - which they could ignore - and the increasingly violent reaction from the other categories of personnel ( they're still demonstrating outside the AF Headquarters at this moment).

Of course, now the management is playing a *closed door* game and let the pilot unions ask, more and more vocally, for a resumption of the *negociations* ( as if there ever was any on this strike    )... No reply so far...

Nice background info Pihero. So you are saying everything is moving fast. But there is no real structural news, and as you state.. no talks. So what's going on?

News on the KL part: The VNV (Dutch Pilot Group) got quoted on a dutch newssite: "De vastberadenheid van onze Franse collega's om deze strijd met de AFKL CEO te winnen is enorm. Zij zijn met een voorhoedegevecht bezig en een positieve uitkomst is cruciaal voor de toekomstige positie en arbeidsvoorwaarden van alle vliegers binnen de AFKL groep. Het bestuur van de VNV is net zo vastberaden en zal de noodzaak daartoe duiden."

In English: The determination of our French colleagues, to win the battle against the AFKL CEO, is enormous. They are fighting on the frontline and a positive outcome will be crucial for the future position and labor conditions of all pilots within the AFKL group. The board of the VNV is just as determined and will point out the necessity of it".

Friday the pilots are invited for a session in which the situation will be explained.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 15):
Anyone have insight as to why DL wouldn't give some assistance on routes like LAX/JFK-CDG?

1)LAX-CDG is an AF exclusive route
2)It's not like they have a huge cache of A330-200s (I looked it up on the DL Electronic Timetable) lying around.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
And at the end of the legal 15 months, easy to merge the two entities...

I guess we all wish that they had chosen that option first, rather than creating the mess trying to re-use/task resources.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
The saddest part of this obscene story is that a population of educated people could not see that Transavia - and whatever word follows the name - is one of the ways for AFKL to make money :

A part of me says that this was because someone somewhere actually wants to see someone loose or get torn down a peg or two, but let's not derail with conspiracy theories.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 16):
At end French government will dictate, as social issues rest in its hand. If Mr. Juniac does not like, he can resign or lose confidence of government which end same way for him.

... and meanwhile Air France's competitiveness can deteriorate even further, and it can fall even further behind its main rivals.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 pm

I certainly hope that this strike will be ending soon - it's unfair to the traveling public, but also all of the other staff at AF. AF-KLM has to change in order to make money or else these pilots will be out of a job. I know multiple people who have been stranded. This completely undermines the hard work that I believe AF has been doing to upgrade its Business class hard product as well as the significant improvement in soft-product, and the vast improvement of CDG.

I don't think the French public has much patience for these strikes anymore (at least, no one in my family does).
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 20):
... and meanwhile Air France's competitiveness can deteriorate even further, and it can fall even further behind its main rivals.

I dont think Transavia Europe did anything for AF competitiveness. Its more a loss of focus for the enterprise.

What they need to work on is the core product in its home market, and how to deploy Transavia France and regional partner under a more coherent efficient umbrella to hold the tide back from LCC/rail competition and maximize feed for the profitable longhaul network.
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Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 17):
So you are saying everything is moving fast. But there is no real structural news, and as you state.. no talks. So what's going on?

As I wrote, the management is playing the closed door game : they know that the stress is now on the unions' shoulders.
The SNPL demanded an immediate "resumption" of the talks, Juniac says thursday and / or Friday... there's no rush...

See it in French here on France Info

Quoting par13del (Reply 19):
A part of me says that this was because someone somewhere actually wants to see someone loose or get torn down a peg or two, but let's not derail with conspiracy theories.

No, please let's...
The violence of the strike is partly explained by the airline representative election coming next April... the SNPL has lost quite a lot of credibility from the base ( they were considered as too soft ) and lost the seat on the board to someone from the more extremist unions - the SPAF, in this instance -. To think that a show of strength and determination was without that type of political calculus would be naive.

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 17):
The determination of our French colleagues, to win the battle against the AFKL CEO, is enormous

But they did not strike, did they ?
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OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 23):
But they did not strike, did they ?

No, they will have a meeting on friday. So just talking. The statement only shows how the KL pilots are thinking about the situation.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:49 pm

STOP PRESS !
After the union's insistence, talks will resume at 20:30 local ( CET).

Feels like the end is near.
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:12 pm

Points proposed by SNPL:

1) Confirm abandonment of Transavia Europe plan as publicly informed by Minister of Transport

2) End threats to abandon existing accord governing scope of Transavia France

3) Development of Transavia France must be according future negotiations at table with respect of social conditions

4) Must establish future safeguards for French workers without ongoing threats by AF


Also ground workers from CFDT union will stage work stoppage themselves at following times in different zones at CDG.
0610-0705
0721-0751
0800-0930
1010-1035
1150-1300
1330-1430
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 21):
AF-KLM has to change in order to make money or else these pilots will be out of a job.

I think everyone is in agreement with that sentiment, the problem is how......

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 26):
Also ground workers from CFDT union will stage work stoppage themselves at following times in different zones at

So is this a sympathy strike or they are just trying to add their issues to the current state of affairs (strike)?
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:19 pm

So what's up with the ground workers? Are they unhappy by the way AF is negotiating?
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:30 pm

Well remember on Monday 8 unions joined pilots to write letter to company about concerns over loss of jobs and shifting of operations outside France.

Also today CFDT 2,000 person rally in front of AF headquarters demanding company must end strike. I think they just feel enough is enough and company needs to put something workable forward.
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 26):
1) Confirm abandonment of Transavia Europe plan as publicly informed by Minister of Transport

2) End threats to abandon existing accord governing scope of Transavia France

3) Development of Transavia France must be according future negotiations at table with respect of social conditions

4) Must establish future safeguards for French workers without ongoing threats by AF

In other words, the status-quo.

So the company endured 10-day strike to end up where it started if these points become the frame work for ending the strike.

Chairman will have been made a clown of imo.

Frankly, I think the company underestimated the opposition to its LCC idea and resolve of the pilot group.
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bennett123
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:48 pm

Can AF continue with the status quo.
 
JRadier
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 31):
Can AF continue with the status quo.

Compared to the current strike status it will take a bit longer into bankruptcy if you ask me.

For me the status quo will not save AF, heavy changes are required.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 29):

Well remember on Monday 8 unions joined pilots to write letter to company about concerns over loss of jobs and shifting of operations outside France.

...Unions known for their intelligence in economic matters, no doubt...
... you forgot to mention the support from the Communist Party, too   

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 29):
Also today CFDT 2,000 person rally in front of AF headquarters demanding company must end strike.

Bullshit ! They were demonstrating their opposition to the pilots'strike ! Is there an end to the propaganda ? Or are pilots so removed from the outside the real - world ?
see here in La Tribune : when Air France demonstrates against Air France ( in French)

So... After ten days and some 200 million euros wasted, we're back to square one ?
Because, let's face it, none of these demands needs a guaranty from the management... but the union could claim Victory !" for any "Yes"... The pilots have lost their special partnership with the management... Yes they'll still have the existing agreements on Transavia France... and that's about it. No more talk of a *unique group pilots'pool*.

Transavia Europe is certainly not dead.
The way I see it is that it will be revived under a form or another : another name, another place or an outright buy of an existing brand ( no matter the size of that LCC ).

It was just postures and gesticulations.
How fracking tragic !
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deltal1011man
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 15):

Being a scab isn't cool.

you wont see ALPA or DALPA allow Delta to fly struck work.
 
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
In other words, the status-quo.

I would say for the time being, until more rational people get to the table.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
So the company endured 10-day strike to end up where it started if these points become the frame work for ending the strike.

Yep.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Chairman will have been made a clown of imo.

Or be made to understand that when a collective bargain agreement is still in effect it takes two to change and not one.
Let's see if any management personnel take a hit.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
Frankly, I think the company underestimated the opposition to its LCC idea and resolve of the pilot group.

Is it really opposition or that management gave them a legal reason to fight?

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 31):
Can AF continue with the status quo.

No, and I believe that all sides are aware of that, but there is a current agreement that must be changed / adjusted before the expansion can take place.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:25 pm

According to ATW twitter update, AF has announced “immediately withdraw the Transavia Europe project" and "Transavia France would proceed “in competitive economic conditions and accompanied by the safeguards as discussed in the negotiations so far” per joint statement of Air France-KLM chairman and CEOs Alexandre de Juniac and Frederic Gagey.

http://atwonline.com/labor/air-franc...pe-calls-pilots-return-immediately
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm

Yes AF has publicly announced its immediate intent to cease plans for Transavia Europe project, and future will be 100% focused on French Transavia in accordance to social protection they will make including promise to hire 250 additional pilots.

Lets see if these gestures are correct as problem is AF likes to negotiate via news media, so its important to see the details behind the scenes.
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Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:39 pm

... as if the SNPL clowns have never used the media, even distributing, on the union's own funds,
the navy jumpers one socialist minister - now gone - has used as the symbol of French quality products !
... as if the SNPL has been so very consistent with their demands.
Shall we recall ?

1/- Main *revendication* was about a single AF pilot pool jumping indiscriminately between AF, Transavia and HOP! cockpits but at the prevailing AF conditions of work and salaries ... The HOP! SNPL didn't find that funny at all and decided to scab on the AF pilots strike, knowing very well that these clowns had an eye on their future E-195...

2/- The Transdavia Europe subject was a late comer, being based on the outright lie that it was a surprise, unknown, and unexplained to the pilots... Funny, I can refer to quite a few articles dated December 2013 in which Gagey and Juniac were already explaining the future expansion plans of the group. Transavia Europe was certainly on the calendar. The pilots have, since that date supported the development of what was then already called *the LowCost pole of AFKL*.
Big problem, as it was later revealed : LoCo, yes, but at AF pay scales and rules of rostering.   

3/- Then the pilots denounced the Transavia expansion as "menacing" Air France jobs ( we're still talking about the *France* bit).

4/- Finally, they discovered that Transavia Europe was going to "pillage" French jobs ( we're not talking about pilots any more, it could be obscene to the ground personnel ). At the same time, in order to demonstrate their lack of egoticism, they would accept HOP! pilots to join the mainline but at the very bottom of the seniority list, whatever their rank or qualifications
At the same time, ion order to reduce the Transavia costs, they propose subcontracting all services around an aircraft : maintenance, fueling, checking and general handling, proving their high concern for the rest of the airline personnel.

Tomorrow, I can see them claiming victory as Transavia Europe is dead ! Hurray ! We won !
We're really back to the fifties / sixties when a communist backed trade union - CGT - was using exactly the same tactics and the same propaganda. These clowns are just tragically fifty years - that's half a century - late.

When the dudt settles, there will remain a few unpalatable facts :
- AF will not survive with the losses of the short / medium haul : That business model is in the way of the dinosaurs.
So there are two ways of getting out : either close down the AF / HOP! point to point 'cause it can't fight the likes of Easyjet / Vueling... or expand Transavia, with the costs of a true LCC.
- Transavia France will expand, it will require personnel and pilots but they will have to adjust to working more for the same salary. No more 45 hours months paid 72... That will hurt !
- Transavia Europe - or at least the present plan is abandoned... Let's start here a naming competition for its replacement, because the survival of AFKL is in that direction. What LH and BA have achieved is proof that it can be done effectively.

As for the Dutch pilots who stayed - with reason - outside the conflict, there is quite a lot of food for thought.

Ten years ago I was advocating a merger of the pilots populations, with a fair seniority list... Now that the AF pilots speak English in their cockpits, the prospect looks a lot easier to implement... Those clowns could learn a fair bit from their KL colleagues.

[Edited 2014-09-24 14:42:00]
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting LAXSTEW (Reply 15):
Anyone have insight as to why DL wouldn't give some assistance on routes like LAX/JFK-CDG?

I would be shocked to hear that any DL and KL flight across the Atlantic has any spare seat at the moment. That's the best they can do. One can't relocate crews and airplanes on such short notice, but rerouting pax through connections usually gets people where they need to go, eventually.

At the very best, we may see equipment upgrades on certain routes (for instance, DL flying a 744 on CDG-JFK). Has this happened yet?
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deltal1011man
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 39):
At the very best, we may see equipment upgrades on certain routes (for instance, DL flying a 744 on CDG-JFK). Has this happened yet?

no and its unlikely that you would.

Again this is a very tough place for DL. While they want to try and add capacity they are limited with what they can do.
Unions won't pick up (generally, unless you in the IAM and feeling screwing over the AMFA because they aren't a national union.......back to the point) work from union member (different union or not) that are on strike.

I know when Comair went on its strike Delta was very limited in what they could do if OH also had flights on the route. I don't know exactly how this works out with DALPA but I would assume that they will keep Delta from adding much, if any, capacity into CDG during this time.
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:04 pm

Mixed flying between the dutch and the french?
No mixed flying between dutch and french pilots please.
I dont trust their professional attitude in the cockpit. Just being honest.
Now that would be a reason for the dutch to strike, having to fly with the french.  Silly

[Edited 2014-09-24 15:07:02]
 
panamair
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 39):
(for instance, DL flying a 744 on CDG-JFK).

During a previous AF strike during the Christmas/New Year's holiday, Delta did indeed put a 744 on JFK-CDG for a few nights in a row. This was around early January when many people were heading home to Europe after the holidays and there simply were no spare seats anywhere. We are currently in late September, and while planes have decent loads, the loads are nowhere like around the Christmas/New Year's holiday period, so passengers have been accomodated on other DL and KL transatlantic flights.
 
airproxx
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):

Pihero, I know we used to have some sorts of "arguments" by the past on far different subjects, but yet, here I totally agree with you.
I've always been amazed to see how AF unions manipulated pilots' opinions these past few weeks, using techniques that are those of an extremist political group seeking for more publicity, by creating fears among a population.

The SNPL was only looking for more weight, particularly after loosing their chair at the AF Administration Council this summer. This strike was decided only to show their influence inside AF pilots' corporation. Too bad so few pilots lacked distance and clear-sightedness to judge the situation and decide this strike was useless, and armful to a yet recovering airline that will keep bleeding money because of its pilots.

No reform @ AF means more space for competition. And unions clearly don't help.
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
 
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 40):
Again this is a very tough place for DL. While they want to try and add capacity they are limited with what they can do.

Is there a metal neutral JV between AF and DL?
Unless the DL pilots implement a sympathy action, it is in DL and AF best interest for DL to do their best to accommodate the pax. The action continues to hurt AF as DL cannot pick up all the slack, just the routes to the US that they both fly, the effects would be minima,l but for the pax on those routes the less inconvenience the more likely they are to stay AF clients.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:09 pm

widebody fleet cancellations for Thursday Sep.25


AF636 IAH
AF456 GRU
AF012 JFK
AF368 CCS
AF192 BLR
AF342 YUL
AF682 ATL
AF422 BOG
AF226 DEL
AF218 BOM
AF2828 LOS
AF724 NKC
AF514 ABV
AF958 DLA
AF023 IAD
AF548 NIM
AF934 TNR
AF741 PUJ
AF264 ICN
AF416 ORD
AF378 DTW
AF3884 DXB
AF258 SGN
AF3862 RUH
AF292 KIX
AF480 LIM
AF344 YUL
AF718 DKR
AF558 NDJ
AF562 BEY
AF026 IAD
AF348 YUL
AF008 JFK
AF246 KUL
AF406 SCL
AF394 EZE
AF442 GIG
AF460 MRU
AF990 JNB
AF454 GRU
AF792 PTP
AF582 CAY
AF642 RUN

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):
Tomorrow, I can see them claiming victory as Transavia Europe is dead ! Hurray ! We won !

Well well. Like I predict in this discussion earlier the outcome is essentially exact. Poor concept Transavia Europe project abandoned, and Transavia France develop only mindful of appropriate social terms.

The only thing that left remains if for Mr Juniac to tender his resignation or be asked to depart.

Not only did he grossly miscalculate response, he was very naive by pushing changes which were totally against current agreements. Then when it became clear negotiation was needed he entered talks and publicly announced what the final outcome, before one word was spoken.

Atmosphere shall remain poor, so a new leader to offer clean start and opportunity for open labor discussions will be required. Otherwise we see AF continues to play with fire with such miscalculating management. Juniac not even a worthy ping-pong player.

[Edited 2014-09-24 16:11:32]
mercure f-wtcc
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:12 pm

Air France pilots want Transavia to switch from B737 to A320.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2014...nce-abandonne-transavia-europe.php
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 38):
Tomorrow, I can see them claiming victory as Transavia Europe is dead ! Hurray ! We won !

Well seemingly the pilots appear to have played things well with egg on the face of the management if final agreement is per the terms on the table tonight which appear to be the exactly what pilots sought.

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
Is there a metal neutral JV between AF and DL?
Unless the DL pilots implement a sympathy action, it is in DL and AF best interest for DL to do their best to accommodate the pax. The action continues to hurt AF as DL cannot pick up all the slack, just the routes to the US that they both fly, the effects would be minima,l but for the pax on those routes the less inconvenience the more likely they are to stay AF clients.

There is only so much DL can overtly do. Yes a random upgauge here or there, but things like extra sections which are clearly meant to replace strike flying would create host of issues for DL itself with its pilots.

How do you think ALPA would view AF operating extra sections to the US if DL was on strike?
Its a can of worms not worth opening for DL imo.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 45):
Not only did he grossly miscalculate response, he was very naive by pushing changes which were totally against current agreements. Then when it became clear negotiation was needed he entered talks and publicly announced what the final outcome, before one word was spoken.

Yes maybe indeed AF miscalculated badly and ended creating a large battle which left them in even worse position before it started.

I suspect there should be some internal reflection by the board, and maybe leadership change with a new face might be indeed useful if this CEO is too tainted with specific events.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:17 am

The pilots will continue their strike, the SNPL will come with a statement later today. First reaction is that work can resume when there is a definitive agreement.
 
andrej
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:59 am

SPAF union plans to resume talks with management and seeks guarantees on contracts and assurances on pay.

SPAF gave 24 hours to Air France for response or it will support to extend strike for 48 hours.

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