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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:18 pm

Very erratic actions from company.

Per media, talks resumed with pilot unions last night at 2045, and at 2108 unknown to negotiators AF made flash news advisory to media of its final proposals to drop Transavia Europe project and only then informed the negotiation team. Company then demand an immediate response from pilots. Pilots request formal written notification with more concrete details be presented before they give formal response. They waited till 0400 for such consultations without of such details.

Parties agree to resume talks again at 1500 today.
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:54 pm

Sounds like there is either disorganization, or internal decent at Air France with one hand negotiating one thing behind closed doors, and other hand off making public announcements.

Let see what happens today.
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OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting andrej (Reply 49):

SPAF union plans to resume talks with management and seeks guarantees on contracts and assurances on pay.

Below the open letter of the SPAF:
Open Letter SPAF

As far as Google Translate allows me to understand, the adjustment of Transavia salaries for pilots costs only half a day strike.


Question about the Air France booking system. You can still book any flight for tomorrow. WHY?? Don't they have enough backlog in getting pasengers from A to B?
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 52):
he open letter of the SPAF

It is not : it is signed by the pilot sitting on the board, the one who got it against the SNPL candidate ( and wasn't elected in spite of the union representing 80 % of the pilots... now down to ~70 % ).

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 52):
the adjustment of Transavia salaries for pilots costs only half a day strike.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Suffice to say that as per June ythis year, the revenue cost per ASK was at 6.86 vs 5.11 euro cents at >AF and Transavia respectively... If only the point to point is considered, these become 6.98 vs 4.96.

There is though an interesting part of that letter : " Ce montant est aussi à comparer aux 204 M€ d’économie qui ont été demandés aux pilotes à l’occasion du plan Transform 2015."", translated as " This amopunt ( of 200 million € ) is to be compared t(o the 204 m€ savings the airline asked from the poilots in the implementation of the "Transform 2015" plan"

We can't be clearer : the clowns have managed to waste the economies they agreed to.
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 53):
We can't be clearer : the clowns have managed to waste the economies they agreed to.

Clowns = management


Seems like they are a growingly incompetent group the way this strike is playing out.
I dont know if its true, but US media said this has been the longest pilot strike in the companies history.
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:37 pm

Another day, no resolution.

Talks ended for evening as management had to attend previous schedule AF-KL board meeting.

Cancel statistics for Thursday:
Scheduled: 839
Cancelled: 574

Below widebody fleet cancellations for Friday Sep.26.
Amazing AF has not serviced some of these markets for over 10-days now!

AF444 GIG 332
AF636 IAH 77W
AF066 LAX 388
AF896 BZV 332
AF192 BLR 332
AF342 YUL 744
AF422 BOG 343
AF682 ATL 77W
AF218 BOM 332
AF272 HND 772
AF3832 LOS 332
AF830 PNR 332
AF515 ABV 332
AF958 DLA 772
AF548 NIM 332
AF750 CKY 332
AF520 BSB 772
AF3884 DXB 77W
AF378 DTW 343
AF264 ICN 77W
AF416 ORD 343
AF718 DKR 77W
AF562 BEY 343
AF010 JFK 77W
AF254 SIN 77W
AF394 EZE 772
AF406 SCL 77W
AF852 CAY 343
AF642 RUN 77W
AF990 JNB 388
AF704 ABJ 772
AF454 GRU 77W
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StuckInCA
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 55):
Amazing AF has not serviced some of these markets for over 10-days now!

Losing customers one day at a time.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:12 am

Skyteam Pilot Association (SPA) put follow declaration out in support of AF pilots.


“WHEREAS the strike at Air France, now stretching into its eleventh day, is the longest and most costly strike at he airline since 1998, and

WHEREAS Air France pilot union leaders and Air France executives have worked diligently to build relationships based on trust and mutual respect for the priorities of both the airline and its employee workforce for more than a decade, and

WHEREAS the pilot / management relationship built over many years of trust and transparency has now been seriously damaged by current management’s failure to negotiate in good faith, and

WHEREAS Air France management is attempting to unilaterally make changes to the collective labor agreement (CLA) of the Air France pilots without legal justification, and

WHEREAS both the Air France and KLM pilots have been unambiguous with Air France/KLM management that they will not accept internal whipsawing of employee groups, dismantling of scope clauses or the outsourcing of French and Dutch pilot jobs to other countries, and

WHEREAS the Air France pilots fully recognize that economics dictate a change to the Air France strategic business plan, and accordingly stand ready to partner with Air France to together build a path for the company’s long-term viability and success, and

WHEREAS the strike caused by the intransigence of the Air France/KLM executive team is financially impacting all of the SkyTeam Alliance partners, and

WHEREAS 80 percent of the Air France pilots are supporting the strike, with resolve of the group strengthening everyday,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the SkyTeam Pilots Association (SPA) cal on the senior executives at Air France/KLM to immediately commit to engage with the Air France pilots in redeveloping an atmosphere of social dialogue, consensus based problem solving, transparency and information sharing that has served the company well in the past, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the over 25,000 pilots represented by the SkyTeam Pilots Association pledge our unwavering support for the Air France pilots as they continue their struggle to help craft a solution that is good for SkyTeam, the Air France/KLM Group, our customers and the Air France pilots.”


=
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 56):
Losing customers one day at a time.

Now that LH is apparently going ahead with strikes there is one more European airline to avoid in the short term...
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 54):
Clowns = management


Seems like they are a growingly incompetent group the way this strike is playing out.
I dont know if its true, but US media said this has been the longest pilot strike in the companies history.

I think it is safe to say both the management and pilots are clowns as they both oversee one thing, the passengers. Air travel disruptions for 2 weeks is just unheard of.

I am an affected passenger as I fly on the AF422 to Bogota next monday. So far Air France can only accomodate a delay in my flightplan but as I have limited vacation days rescheduling towards halfway october which means I have 3 days before I fly back home. On sunday I should know more about possible rebooking, I read statements of people who got rebooked to a flight that would leave as soon as 2 hours after they received the message of rebooking (try to get to the airport in time with such short notice). It is frustrating to see issues comming up but no actions are taking place. AF is accepting bookings for the flight on monday even though it is likely to get cancelled. Somewhere understandeable, but it adds to the workloads and to the frustrated passengers.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:38 am

Blame AF. They should not accept new bookings until the pilots have agreed to end the strike. It is simple if AF wants to fly, give in to the demands of the pilots.
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:45 am

AF's Board calls on pilots to stop striking and resume working.

The AF's Board gives full support to the management.

AF also stated that their request of single contract aren't compatible with its planned low cost model.

Les Echos estimates that strike will reduce operating profit by EUR 200M - EUR 250M (estimates for operating profit were reduced by analysts).

Given that daily cost of strike at at least EUR 20M and it is 12th day of strike (counting Sept. 15th till 26th), so far it costs AF at least EUR 240M and with limited revenue inflow, it must have a negative and significant impact on the cash flows (lease payments, parking/storage fees, wages, etc.).

We may expect for AF to use its credit lines very soon (it has a credit line of EUR 1.0B available, not drawn as of 08/14) and/or look for new funding as well (about EUR 1.0B worth of loans and debt matures in next 15 months).
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:25 am

andrej,

Good post.
You should, though, write* AF-KLM board * iso AF only.
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:15 pm

Cancel statistic for Friday

Scheduled: 842
Cancelled: 585


Following AF-KL board meeting, union receive document assuring concept of European LCC project is "permanently abandoned".

Union and company continue talks Friday on remaining points including establish key social assurances for conditions at Transavia France.

Also SPAF union join SNPL and extend strike till Sep.30
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acelanzarote
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:40 pm

Seems almost like the Union have managed to get AF on the run, certainly difficult to see what the management have gained so far.
However longer term what then?
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting andrej (Reply 61):
F's Board calls on pilots to stop striking and resume working.

Expected

Quoting andrej (Reply 61):
The AF's Board gives full support to the management.

Duh...

Quoting andrej (Reply 61):
AF also stated that their request of single contract aren't compatible with its planned low cost model.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 63):
Following AF-KL board meeting, union receive document assuring concept of European LCC project is "permanently abandoned".

So which is it, abandoned or not viable with a single contract?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:50 pm

Two seperate issues

One was Transavia Europe concept with bases like Portugal and Germany that could employ locals. This is dead.

Second is demand that all flights in France over 100 seats be operated under a unified contract. This includes Hop! and Transavia France. This still pending resolution.
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Homobohemicus
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:01 pm

All respects to Air France and its staff. It is indeed a fundamental right to seek a fair platform at work and show discontent in case of potential management's activities affecting ones livelihood...

Saying that and from personal experience (last being August 2014), Air France's staff need to wake up and see (admit) that much of the airline's problems could be attributed to them. My last flights were a perfect example (combination of AF as crew and CDG as an airport). I flew BKK-CDG-PRG and back. Even though the flights were "reasonably" on time with slight delays ... The aircraft used was allright (BKK-CDG B773 and seemed brand new, CDG-BKK B773 of a more ancient breed and flights from CDG-PRG a spartan looking A318 and PRG-CDG a well kept older A320).

The only positive thing I could say about the overall experience is that they had me from Point A to B safely... But the rest was a completely bland trip with no incentive whatsoever to use them again for whatever reason. The tickets from AF are not the cheapest from BKK, continual problems with an APP that I just deleted, Reservations don't allow you seat selection and shoves you in the middle seat without choice and more preoccupied with selling "paid comfort" seats... crew's availability and presence in the cabin for the 12 hours flight was "zero". Serve food and run away. I was horrified when the family in front of me (with kids) dared to use the call button to ask for water ... the kind attendant briskly informed them that there are drinks at the back galley and they can go and get it themselves and just left (drinks and a back galley that was not mentioned in their service announcement). Paris airport wreaks of mediocrity in every sense... from outlets to what they dare call "food venues". Passport control's 20 booths closed and only one working for all passports (EU and non EU) seeing a mile long line and engaging in a private talk with other officers.

I know the way "business" works in France, but I cannot feel the slightest for such a state of affairs. Undoubtedly there are great people in the airline and pride themselves in the service that they offer, but unless they look hard in what they presented to me and other passengers as "service" they need to take look around. Their rates are not cheap and they are an airline that I for example use only if I must.

I see AF staff only whining but never actually doing anything about it... The theorem is simple: No one pays me if I do a bad job, no one pays me doing a mediocre job... But blessed those "large" companies that simple bleed money and burn money and then cry help...
 
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:46 pm

News alert for tonight:

Pilots union jointly informs that it cannot carryout respectful negotiations with Chairman Alexander Juniac, and calls on French state to appoint independent mediators to finalize discussions surrounding development of low cost model inside France.

After 12-days of strikes, pilots being at heart of development of Transavia France continues to be ready to establish compatible economic conditions for such venture, but cannot negotiate with parties that continue to adjust terms already agreed, and have inability to have respectful social dialogue.

As sign of appeasement and respect for French state, unions will be ready to lift strike upon appointment of mediator and commencement of narrow negotiations on remaining points.
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Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 68):
Pilots union jointly informs that it cannot carryout respectful negotiations with Chairman

As a matter of fact, it was the management which decided to end the so-called negociations.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 68):
and calls on French state to appoint independent mediators t

...to which both the prime minister and the transport minister said NO !, declaring that the AF management protocol was a good one and that the pilots should take their reponsibilities ( after all, I thoiught that that was the main aspect of their job    )

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 68):
respectful social dialogue.

Please quote just one SNPL public declaration about their respect of the management and the rest of the airline... Just one.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 68):
As sign of appeasement and respect for French state, unions will be ready to lift strike upon appointment of mediator and commencement of narrow negotiations on remaining points.

Two very specious parts of your sentence :
1/- The transport minister has just declared that it has already done too much in asking Juniac to reconsider the Transavia Europe project... The government doesn't want - cannot - go any farther as - quote - "Air France is a private company and the government has no business interfering with its policy ".
According to the same minister, the management has gone far enough into seeking a solution... that the Transavia France is / will be good for the airline...
As a bit of a sarcasm, he said that generally people go on strike when they 're losing their jobs ; in this case, and to the contrary, Transavia is about the creation of some 1000 skilled jobs...
2/- Be honest, just for once : the Transavia Europe was just a smokescreen : the main subject of this strike is about AF pilots protecting their " perimeter " regardless of the airline - and its employees' - interests in trying to impose their vastly unproductive work conditions into Transavia - and let's not forget HOP! and it's future E-195 .

So... just about everybody except those die-hards of the communist party    and the CGT and Sud ( extreme extreme extreme proletarian union ) have deserted you. the Skyteam pilot unions are behind, but so far behind they're not going to go on strike for you... and the Dutch are careful in not getting involved... The international press are ridiculing you, even the WSJ, generally good on French bashing, the NYT, the Times, the Guardian...

Pilots have now become tragic clown figures.

Fracking pitiful.

But of course, I'm old enough to know that the extremists among you will go to the bitter end... Tuesday ? just for the fun of it and some face- saving ?

You had me puzzled : how come someone from Polynesia be so quickly au fait of what's happening... until I realized that bin fact you live in Bordeaux.
Silly me.
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Widebody fleet cancels Sep.27

AF636 IAH 77W
AF066 LAX 388
AF456 GRU 772
AF012 JFK 772
AF192 BLR 332
AF976 LBV 77W
AF682 ATL 77W
AF422 BOG 343
AF3832 LOS 332
AF724 NKC 332
AF958 DLA 772
AF514 ABV 332
AF741 PUJ 77W
AF438 MEX 744
AF3884 DXB 77W
AF292 KIX 772
AF276 NRT 77W
AF344 YUL 343
AF474 PTY 772
AF072 LAX 77W
AF702 ABJ 772
AF356 YYZ 772
AF900 NSI 772
AF688 ATL 744
AF166 BKK 77W
AF718 DKR 77W
AF536 OUA 343
AF010 JFK 772
AF348 YUL 77W
AF008 JFK 772
AF406 SCL 772
AF394 EZE 772
AF274 HND 77W
AF442 GIG 77W
AF792 PTP 77W
AF842 FDF 77W
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:44 pm

Thanks for the updates.

So what happens next? Seems if the government does not step in with a mediator this can continue even longer ha?

Also I dont know how accurate it is, but I read the companies savings projection of growing Transavia Europe ORY base was a net savings of EUR 10mil annually.
Seems rather silly to endure a strike costing north of EUR 200mil so far now just to save EUR 10mil per year!
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:59 pm

I guess strike will continue as parties remain apart on terms for crews at Transavia France.


Notice issued by Air France:


Air France today presented pilot representatives with a protocol to end the conflict.

This protocol follows the withdrawal of the Transavia Europe project on 24 September 2014, meeting the demands of the Air France pilots' unions, and the multiple appeals to striking pilots to return to work.

The terms of this protocol to end the conflict are as follows:

• The withdrawal of the Transavia Europe project is confirmed;

• The provision of the agreement to set up Transavia France, signed in 2007, limiting the fleet to 14 aircraft, is deleted;

• The principle of a single fleet of Boeing 737 is confirmed for Transavia;

• The development of Transavia France beyond 14 Boeing 737 will take place as from summer 2015 to capture a bigger share of the buoyant leisure market, to create 1,000 jobs, including 250 pilots, and strengthen the Air France-KLM group’s position as leader at Paris-Orly;

• Pilots flying for Transavia will be employed under Transavia France operating and remuneration conditions, to ensure the latter’s competitiveness as well as its development in conjunction with the Air France network;

• Two co-existing contracts (Transavia France and Air France) will be set up for Air France pilots who volunteer to fly for Transavia France. The terms of use and remuneration will be those in effect at the company where the pilot works and where he or she is paid. This measure will also give rise to dynamic and integrated career development, including a single seniority list. These are the pilots’ most specific expectations.

The talks are continuing.
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OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 72):
• Two co-existing contracts (Transavia France and Air France) will be set up for Air France pilots who volunteer to fly for Transavia France. The terms of use and remuneration will be those in effect at the company where the pilot works and where he or she is paid. This measure will also give rise to dynamic and integrated career development, including a single seniority list. These are the pilots’ most specific expectations.

The talks are continuing.

Talks have ended and strike continues. The pilots want a mediator, the government refuses as they say there is an outcome on the table and the strike must end.
 
Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:06 am

Are any AF aircraft stranded outside France including DOM/TOM?
So what's the damage (fees) in terms of parking?
 
 
andrej
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:29 am

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 74):
So what's the damage (fees) in terms of parking?

Could this be included in already stated EUR 20M charge per day?
 
Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:34 am

The cost in MRO of a non-flying plane?
So they can't all be in hangars as they get weather-beaten.
The €20M is a conservative estimate.
AF has only €700M of its own capital left.
Disastrous management!
The strike is going to cost more than their 1% savings they wanted with OH!
Juniac & Co. should resign for costing the taxpayers billions!

[Edited 2014-09-27 02:35:30]
 
TYCOON
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:21 am

The pilots should all be fired for being so selfish, with little regard for their lesser paid and hard-working colleagues, let alone the flying public.
Fire them all I say, and hire some qualified pilots at cheaper rates willing to work more hours.
Firing De Juniac is not going to solve AF's longer term problems.... Firing the pilots would certainly be a good step in the right direction...
But I know, this being France, not possible... but I would certainly love for that day to come!
Such arrogance!!
 
andrej
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:33 pm

In my opinion, pilot's strongly believed in their cause (hence why such as a high ratio of striking pilots). After the management caved in (scrapping of the Transavia Europe) and the government's minimal intervention / mediation, the unions gained a strong momentum and they try to capitalize on it as much as possible.

I am not saying right or wrong, but the unions will try to get from this situation as much as possible (mainly better position at the next round of meetings).

On the other hand, de Juniac's leadership shows a lack of experience in dealing with unions / negotiation skills. The management (right or wrong) is on the defensive, despite it being first that disrupted relations between the management and pilot unions (introduction and expansion of the low cost model).

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 77):
The €20M is a conservative estimate.
AF has only €700M of its own capital left.

I agree with you that Air France's financial position is not stellar and this strike will hurt its efforts to become profitable and improve its margins. The EUR 20M / day is conservative estimate in my view as well, but I really want to see their latest financial statements, where we can see initial impact of the strike.

In recent events, Air France plans to operate more than 45% of its scheduled flights tomorrow.

PM Valls said that latest AF's proposal to striking pilots should be enough to end the strike.||

And since somebody was not sure, this is the longest Air France (at least in past 40 years).

Cheers,

Andrej
 
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:17 pm

So whats the plan of the pilots to compete against all these other strong airlines from europe and the rest of the world?
They dont want to work harder, so whats their plan then? A couple more transavia planes flying out of Orly?
That cant be their whole plan.
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 80):

So whats the plan of the pilots to compete against all these other strong airlines from europe and the rest of the world?
They dont want to work harder, so whats their plan then? A couple more transavia planes flying out of Orly?
That cant be their whole plan.

It will probably be related to not allowing foreign pilots on cheap contracts doing their work.

Small example from the transportation sector. France was going to introduce a new law on truck drivers for 2015. Meaning it would be forbidden to sleep in your cabin for the weekend rest period. Obviously French truckers could drive home for their weekend rest, but drivers from abroad would be forced to go to a hotel, meaning the prices of these transporters would be more expensive, and French truckers standing a better chance. The law didn't make it, since trespassing was set up to 1 year of imprisonment and 30.000 EUR fine.

Pilots probably want some protection to keep the wages they have. However, going on a strike for so long could make matters only worse. If AF was operating on a nice profit you could understand such actions, but with the losses they make it's key that they are not going to make it without securing some low-cost alternative.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting andrej (Reply 79):
And since somebody was not sure, this is the longest Air France (at least in past 40 years).

Just about, as the 1971 strike I'v' already mentioned - about piloting the 737 with three Flight deck crews, among other things - lasted 26 days.
It was paid by the pilots in lost opportunities, frozen promotions and for the airline the beginning of a slow descent to hell... only stopped by the UTA merger ( UTA bought Air France and not the contrary... ) a EU imposed solution on re-financing against total frozen development...
So, as a matter of fact, that 1971 strike saw its effects for 28 years.

What we are witnessing is a historical moment : the slow death of Air France has started...
... unless very soon we see a new development : the group buying an established LCC and / or KLM taking control, with the headquarters in Amsterdam, the Group under Dutch registration and tax laws.
Anyway, without a strong LCC on-board, the airline will be gasping its last breath soon.
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mercure1
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:42 pm

Statistic for Saturday Sep.27

Scheduled: 753
Cancelled: 567


Planned widebody fleet cancels Sunday Sep.28

AF636 IAH 77W
AF456 GRU 772
AF012 JFK 772
AF368 CCS 332
AF272 HND 772
AF218 BOM 332
AF3832 LOS 332
AF830 PNR 332
AF958 DLA 772
AF514 ABV 332
AF3884 DXB 77W
AF264 ICN 77W
AF416 ORD 332
AF258 SGN 772
AF508 CAI 332
AF860 LFW 343
AF072 LAX 77W
AF688 ATL 744
AF702 ABJ 772
AF090 MIA 77W
AF562 BEY 343
AF3852 BKO 343
AF338 BOS 744
AF010 JFK 772
AF026 IAD 772
AF008 JFK 772
AF254 SIN 77W
AF394 EZE 772
AF406 SCL 77W
AF274 HND 77W
AF990 JNB 388
AF644 RUN 77W
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Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:11 pm

And the longest aviation strike in French history, anyone?
LP (Air Alpes) in 1977 from 07 Jan - 28 April.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Alpes
 
Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:49 pm

Hotel prices soar at CDG and ORY because of AF strike.
I've never heard hotel prices at airports rise because of industrial action.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:01 am

This must be costing the group a fortune, which sadly will most likely result in job losses. Any word of the pilots intention to extend the strike further past September 30th?
 
Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:13 am

 
OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:30 am

I am very curious to see how the post Sep-30 situation will work out. So far I haven't read any news on continuing the strike, but it's hard to imagine things will keep on going as they are since there is no agreement whatsoever. Should we prepare for a next strike round?
 
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 85):
Hotel prices soar at CDG and ORY because of AF strike.
I've never heard hotel prices at airports rise because of industrial action.

No different than if weather closes an airport, if you have connecting pax who were already in France before the strike they need to get home, in this thread a poster said they had a few hours notice of an operating flight.
Capitalism being what it is, supply and demand.

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 87):
Non-striking AF pilots outed and threatened:

The threat part is something else, how difficult can it be to identify who the pilots are who crossed the lines?
Every a/c has a log which the captain has to sign, unless the regulators change laws to allow the destruction of those records during the time of the strike one only has to look at the logs of the a/c that flew.

BBC is reporting that the strike will end to allow a environment for negotiation
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29401056

Whenever there are strikes and the company does not immediately go under, I always wonder how the financial folks who said prior to the strike that the company had no money now sit at the table after the company lost millions and repeat the same with a straight face.
Now understand, I am not taking a position on the strike, just saying that in negotiations in this day and age, more honesty and less fear building may be a better tactic, has the fear factor ever worked and prevented a strike?
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:42 pm

just on the news that the strike is over. More to follow.
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 89):
Now understand, I am not taking a position on the strike

Yes, just the gist of your post says otherwise.

The strike is now over . That is the good news.
What does it mean for the passengers ?
It will take three to four days for the airline traffic to return to OPS Normal : Airplanes have to be aired, cleaned, maintained, checked... some will need engine runs... they have to introduce some priorities for the first lines to be taken care of : parking spots have to be completely cleared, taxiways freed... etc...Aircrews have to be returned ( most of them have ) and re-positioned on outstations... In thye beginning, care must be taken not to mix strikers and not-strikers in the same cockpit.
The task is huge and the OCC will be working extra hours with reinforced teams.

What is the cost like ?
Nobody at thus time really knows : the gross estimation of 15 M€ is just that, a gross estimation. Now one will have to add to the lost revenue penalties, re-imbursements, extra maintenance,... not counting what has been lost, mainly customers'confidence, lost business with courier companies ( DHL in mind ) who will have gone somewhere else, probably without any hope of return.
On the other hand, passengers will also remember that the likes of EasyJet took a shameless advantage of their predicament : I doi not think that making the stranded passengers a fee upward of 900 € for a PAR-TLS will endear them to the public... But that's short term.

So what was the strike about ?
The pilots have won a declaration from the airline canning the Transavia Europe plan... but they have not signed it, therefore the management can say that it will be again a subject of discussion... and frankly, that p)lan, in a form or another is bound to reappear.
The main dermand of the SNPL was to have the Air France pay scheme working for Transavia France - and HOP !, let's not forget it for one moment -.Their problem was that they only defended the AF pilots' promotion prospects (have they said they would integrate into the AF pilot population the guys and girls now flying Transavia or HOP ! ? No and certainly not )
That attitude showed and the accusations of *corporatism * became day after day stronger.
From the striking piuot point of view some have bitterly realiz"ed that they've been taken for a ride by the union leaders : most of them will not see a drop in their salaries as they've managed to be officially ion leave or on rest or on * trade unions'duty*, paid 6 hours / day during the whole period.

In very few words : the obscenity the strike was is over... The pilots have won exactly nothing.
Juniac is now regarded as one of the few airline CEOs to win a fight against the pilots... and the pilots now have a very weak negociating position in - what they call - a serene environment in the future.

The result is that the airline is in a much weaker financial situation and some very important aspects of the Transform 2015 plan are in ruins... investments have to be postponed and these clowns have shot their own foot as the growth perspectives will be less and will be delayed... for their careers, it is a real setback.
The most comical aspect is that most of them have thousands of AF shares : they've lost some 45 % of their value... Who bets on the return to 14€ /share in the future ?
Not me.
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readytotaxi
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:16 pm

Yes, strike has ended, for now anyway.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29401056  
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 91):
The result is that the airline is in a much weaker financial situation and some very important aspects of the Transform 2015 plan are in ruins...

Which is the big issue, did it have to come to a strike or were their parties on either side who actually wanted a strike?
The aviation industry the world over is heading in the same direction, yes for individual nations with full political support they can push the inevitable aside for a while, but as long as international commerce is allowed, the outcome is already known.
The EU has no chpt.11 laws which allow re-organization, so would management allow the airline to die to re-emerge anew, could they have private agreements which ensure that they have jobs in the new company?
The unions want no change, they know the end result because they can see it all over the EU, so they hold out and strike until management caves, now what? Their current contract has an end date and the shift to lower cost is inevitable, they can only postpone for so long, so what have they accomplished, as you say nothing.

In hindsight, should management have allowed the strike to lead to a quick death rather than the prolonged spiral?
Does anyone believe that after this the pilots will agree to work harder for less?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 91):
Quoting par13del (Reply 89):
Now understand, I am not taking a position on the strike

Yes, just the gist of your post says otherwise.

Management is always held to a higher standard, they are charged with leading the company, in good times and bad, could they have prevented the strike? As stated upthread, some unions thought they were not militant enough, did management not know that, did they play into the trap, should they have known better?

I hope that in time more information will come to light so others would know how to avoid this type situation in the future.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:42 pm

Sounds like we might be facing another strike quite soon if the unresolved differences regarding pay for the 100+ seat flying is not ironed out.

Hopefully management does not miscalculate as badly again as the pilot unions seem quite determined to stick to the issue.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 93):

Which is the big issue, did it have to come to a strike or were their parties on either side who actually wanted a strike?

That's the most ridiculous idea on this thread.

Quoting par13del (Reply 93):
The unions want no change,

They're still in the sixties, yes.

Quoting par13del (Reply 93):
Does anyone believe that after this the pilots will agree to work harder for less?

Where did you see that idea ?
Transavia France - or Europe - will be strengthened, with an LCC cost base. No one has asked the pilots to participate in that new development... They are free to work for Transavia on a voluntary basis, but with Transavia contracted work rules and salary.
As for the rest of the AF mainline, they have a choice : they have put their signature on their part of the Transform 2015 plan : 204 million €... As it happens they will be responsible for a loss upward of 4 to 500 million. The government made sure they are officially regarded as an egotistical, uncaring population ( that's the gist of the prime minister declaration to the media ). They've lost all credibility in the other employees' eyes along with a lot of respect.
The only outcome I can see from this mess is that they will be allowed to use Transavia as another field for growth... and job and promotion opportunities :
Let's just give a precision to that : Transavia is now 14 aircrfat and 150 pilots : That's 70 crews plus ten management captains : TRE/IREs... etc... Five crews per airplane. Next year will see 7 new 737s joining, and that's 70 pilots so that half the FOs population will get a left-hand seat... which means that the time from Copliot to captain will be just about two years, three at the most... at AF, the time is now over 12 tears, and it's hnoçt really improving as the captains population is very young - no retirements - and the growth of the airline has been slowed down significantly.
Then the salary. These clowns never said that as a matter of fact, an EasyJet pilot earns more than his / her AF colleague... but they earn içt through harder work and more than anything more productivity ( 35 to 40 % more ).
That situation will happen at Transavia ( it already is, btw ).

This is hardly news : in 1995 when AF and UTA were merged, the UTA and the Air Inter pilots lost 1/3rd of their salary andf both airlines were in a very good financial situation... Remember, it was UTA that bought AF, not the contrary. The reason : their employees were a lot more productive.

Now, twenty years later we are in exactly the same situation... but this time there won't be any government parachute.
Either the clowns adapt or they starve.
No other option.

As for those who were seeing Juniac's demise, it could be a cruel wake up call. The clowns have made his position a lot stronger, both in the eyes of the employees ( There aren't many AF CEOs who won against a pilots industrial action ).

Stay tuned for the re-birth of an AFKL LCC... under what form, I can't say, but it will happen.

For those more serious posters interested in a better understanding of the airline situation in Europe, this is a video from the Paris Air Forum, with some really interesting interventions from Carolyn McCall ( EasyJet CEO ) and Max Cruz ( Vueling CEO ) on
Will the Euro short / medium Haul be conquered by LCCs ?

The vid is in English, although its title is in French.
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par13del
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:03 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 95):
Transavia France - or Europe - will be strengthened, with an LCC cost base. No one has asked the pilots to participate in that new development... They are free to work for Transavia on a voluntary basis, but with Transavia contracted work rules and salary.

So if there are unemployed pilots in France there is no issue.
The issue of the number of 100 seat a/c hopefully will also soon be resolved.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 95):
Which is the big issue, did it have to come to a strike or were their parties on either side who actually wanted a strike?

That's the most ridiculous idea on this thread.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 23):
The violence of the strike is partly explained by the airline representative election coming next April... the SNPL has lost quite a lot of credibility from the base ( they were considered as too soft ) and lost the seat on the board to someone from the more extremist unions - the SPAF, in this instance -. To think that a show of strength and determination was without that type of political calculus would be naive.

Did I misunderstand this post?
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 94):
Sounds like we might be facing another strike quite soon if the unresolved differences regarding pay for the 100+ seat flying is not ironed out.

  
If you really believe that, reality will bite you hard. Where ? I have an idea...
Another strike ? The first day will see the airline on a bankrupt lawsuit... and probably the birth of KLAF in Amsterdam.
Go ahead !

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 94):
Hopefully management does not miscalculate as badly again as the pilot unions seem quite determined to stick to the issue.

Face it : They've lost an unwinable battle... The Transavia plan will be implemented with or without them. The management position is : a voluntary basis / at Transavia conditions.

Something else you seem to disregard : No one has signed an agreement document of any sort, not even an agreed record of the negociations... Which means that the proposal for the cancellation of the Transavia Europe plan is not on record either.
What did the clowns get ?.. After 14 days of gesturing and posturing ?
A wallaby living in the GAFA would say FA !
I hope they are proud of themselves.

This morning at the baker's, one of them had his uniform shirt and tie... I gently told him that I've never ever been ashamed of my epaulette bars and my wings... he left without a word and without his bread.
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Chamonix
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:16 pm

So you know where the root of the problem is?
The real root, that is?
Ah, now who were those conmen who got paid hundreds of millions to give out crap advice on airline mergers?
McKinsey!
Yes, you know about SR but whose stupid bloody idea was to to merge IT with AF?
McKinsey!
McKinsey because McKinsey were IT's conultants.
Now should I say how McKinsey screwed up on HP/Compaq, Enron...
And who refused a bridging loan to SR?
The then Credit Suisse CEO, Lukas Mühleman, who of course was ex-McKinsey!
UBS gangster Ospel is equally guilty but not a McKinsey boy.
So what's AF's survival plan?
To demerge its short/medium haul into a LCC.
Wow, isn't that a bright idea.
AF is getting its taste of its own medicine.
AF did everything it could to destroy IW and IJ so now they can stick up their Junta!
Legacy Airlines should always remember the SR debacle.
From CHF 50BN to zero!
 
Pihero
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RE: Air France Strike 15-22 September Part 2

Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 96):
Did I misunderstand this post?

No. I apologize for my comment...
BUT, on the other hand you should have initially quoted the part on the rep elections.

And now the answer to that question is : Did the SNPL want a strike ?
Probably not. I think that they were caught by their own rhetoric : They wanted to be seen as the main defenders of the pilots'cause and stronger than any other union, which would have helped them regain that seat on the Board in April.
That's the only reason for the harsh words and the hard stance .
People on this site would remember that I initially did not believe that the strike would take place, for three very good reasons :
1/- There already was an agreement in place between the pîlots and the management regarding Transavia France : AF pilots could join HV on a voluntary basis without loss of salary ( as AF would guarantee ), while staying on the accrued AF seniority list. There is somewhere on a newspaper site the interview of such an AF pilot who seems very happy working for Transavia. The same agreement was being negociated on an HV fleet growth to 34 planes...

2/- The Transavbia Europe plan had been revealed in mid December 2013, nine months ago, and its implementation was already on the tablme for July 2015. There was certainly no urgency as it was part of the new *Perform 2020 plan*, to be submitted to all the airline unions next month.

3/- Since 1998, the SNPL has a very good history of loyal partnership with the management. As a matter of fact, some of their leaders have reached very high positions with the airline for very good reasons : one in particular was a very active initiator of some of the group's strategy.

I was dead wrong because I did not put into the whole equation the *political* aspect of the Board membership.
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