B8887
Topic Author
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Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:32 pm

Greetings All.

Just flew Emirates to Tokyo for a short break.

Both flights in and out of Dubai were packed in all classes.

I have the feeling this flight could be upgraded to double or triple daily both to Haneda and Narita, or to A380 for the two current daily flights to both airports.

As the largest Metropolis on Earth, this can be expected at some time, I would think.

Any comments would be welcome.

Thank you Japan for a wonderful country and wonderful people.

Kind Regards.

B8887
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:49 pm

Emirates has a weak history in Japan. When they started their rapid expansion, travel between Europe and India was their main market. Other destinations in Asia and Australia developed, but in general KIX, ICN, HND and NRT do not connect well with Europe through Dubai. Dubai adds a significant amount of time to the trip. Essentially the flight from Europe to Dubai does not get you much closer to NRT. DXB-NRT is only 1000 miles less than FRA-NRT or LHR-NRT. That is a lot of extra time and fuel. ANA, JAL, Korean Air and Asiana all are tough competitors. Similarly, many of the major European airlines are flying nonstop to these markets.

Emirates has grown well beyond Europe to India, but in general, Europe to North East Asia is a weak market for them. They can fill a plane to each of those 4 airports once per day, but there is not enough traffic from their hub banks other than the main one from Europe departing at 3am from Dubai.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
airbazar
Posts: 9899
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:53 pm

EK is limited by the current bilateral which was just expanded in the Summer of 2013 to 14 weekly flights into NRT, plus 7 weekly to HND. I'm not sure how soon Japan would be willing to renegotiate the bilateral given that the current one has been in effect for only 1 year.
 
B8887
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Posts: 457
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
Emirates has a weak history in Japan. When they started their rapid expansion, travel between Europe and India was their main market. Other destinations in Asia and Australia developed, but in general KIX, ICN, HND and NRT do not connect well with Europe through Dubai. Dubai adds a significant amount of time to the trip. Essentially the flight from Europe to Dubai does not get you much closer to NRT. DXB-NRT is only 1000 miles less than FRA-NRT or LHR-NRT. That is a lot of extra time and fuel. ANA, JAL, Korean Air and Asiana all are tough competitors. Similarly, many of the major European airlines are flying nonstop to these markets.

Emirates has grown well beyond Europe to India, but in general, Europe to North East Asia is a weak market for them. They can fill a plane to each of those 4 airports once per day, but there is not enough traffic from their hub banks other than the main one from Europe departing at 3am from Dubai.

I can tell you that about one third of the passengers were Europeans returning to Europe, the other third were Japanese connecting to pretty much also all over Europe, and a small percentage to Africa maybe, and the other third a mix of everything else, notably Brazilians returning home, and a fair amount of Americans connecting to the United States as well.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 3):

I can tell you that about one third of the passengers were Europeans returning to Europe, the other third were Japanese connecting to pretty much also all over Europe, and a small percentage to Africa maybe, and the other third a mix of everything else, notably Brazilians returning home, and a fair amount of Americans connecting to the United States as well.

It may be full, but it also depends on what fares are being generated and what the yields are. I suspect that premium cabin demand may be lower for flights from Europe to Japan. I would suspect that any passengers connecting from the United States would be extremely low yielding. The flights from the US to Dubai do not connect in the same bank of departures as the Dubai - Japan flights. They require very long layovers in Dubai. You will see some Americans going through Dubai to India and Southeast Asia, but I can't imagine Emirates making much money flying Americans to Japan.

Also, bilaterals affect the operation too.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
airbazar
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:56 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
Other destinations in Asia and Australia developed, but in general KIX, ICN, HND and NRT do not connect well with Europe through Dubai. Dubai adds a significant amount of time to the trip.

That may be true but the reality is that a lot of the traffic is to/from Europe. In the first year that EK started to serve LIS, the number of Portuguese arrivals in NRT went up 20%. Outside of Europe, EK links Brazil and Africa to Japan better than anyone else. Brazil pax numbers to Japan went up 25% after EK started GRU. Arrivals from African countries are also on the rise significantly.
Every time I see these numbers I cringe, thinking about the missed opportunities that other "incumbent" carriers missed out on.
 
TC957
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Before the HND 77L service started, NRT was an A380. Sounds like it should be again.
 
B8887
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 5):
It may be full, but it also depends on what fares are being generated and what the yields are. I suspect that premium cabin demand may be lower for flights from Europe to Japan. I would suspect that any passengers connecting from the United States would be extremely low yielding. The flights from the US to Dubai do not connect in the same bank of departures as the Dubai - Japan flights. They require very long layovers in Dubai. You will see some Americans going through Dubai to India and Southeast Asia, but I can't imagine Emirates making much money flying Americans to Japan.

Also, bilaterals affect the operation too.

Yes. I was a bit surprised to overhear American English and catching a glimpse of some US passports on arrival back in Dubai.

Imagine you want to fly from Hamburg, Germany, or from Geneva, Switzerland to Tokyo.

Rather than flying to Frankfurt or Amsterdam (or Zurich) and connecting there, I think many people just go with Emirates despite being a bit longer on an already long journey.

It just adds maybe four to five hours to a long travel time, but people take advantage of good facilities connecting in Dubai, good service, and in most cases good connection times in Dubai, and people do not bother flying Lufthansa or Air France.

I think this is valid for Economy, as well as for Business and First passengers.

B8887
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 8):
but people take advantage of good facilities connecting in Dubai, good service, and in most cases good connection times in Dubai,

Pray tell what advantage of "good facilities" in overrated DXB there is which one does not find at AMS, ZRH or HEL? Detour via DXB is not worth it even with reasonable connection time and the arrival time to HND is just awful. Even if no ethical/moral aspects involved, those cramped 777s are a reason enough to avoid EK.
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 8):
It just adds maybe four to five hours to a long travel time, but people take advantage of good facilities connecting in Dubai, good service, and in most cases good connection times in Dubai, and people do not bother flying Lufthansa or Air France.

I think this is valid for Economy, as well as for Business and First passengers.

It's only valid for Business/First class passengers if you're flying for leisure. If you're flying for business/work, the extra 4-5 hours is "lost" time and time is $$$ these days.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
B8887
Topic Author
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
Pray tell what advantage of "good facilities" in overrated DXB there is which one does not find at AMS, ZRH or HEL? Detour via DXB is not worth it even with reasonable connection time and the arrival time to HND is just awful. Even if no ethical/moral aspects involved, those cramped 777s are a reason enough to avoid EK.

I think the most convenient hubs to connect in Europe happen to be Madrid and Charles de Gaulle.

I do not think Amsterdam or Zurich are that pleasant from an architectural point of view.

Particularly in Amsterdam, it is almost impossible to do the most basic of things, to sit down and wait, because there are no chairs. I will say this again, there are no chairs in the international gates to sit down and wait, or very, very, few.

Madrid, Charles de Gaulle and Dubai have modern, comfortable and visually pleasant terminals with tall ceilings and lots of space just to move about.

B8887
 
musapapaya
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 6):
It just adds maybe four to five hours to a long travel time, but people take advantage of good facilities connecting in Dubai, good service,

good facilities including queuing for dirty toilets and seeing people sitting on the floor waiting for their flights? I beg to differ, IMO Dubai airport is good only for the cheap vodka from duty free!
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
I think the most convenient hubs to connect in Europe happen to be Madrid and Charles de Gaulle.

LOL. You must be connecting in some Parallel CDG...

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
I do not think Amsterdam or Zurich are that pleasant from an architectural point of view.

I do not care. Give me a boring, efficient airport like ZRH over a dysfunctional architectural masterpiece like CDG.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
Charles de Gaulle and Dubai have modern, comfortable and visually pleasant terminals with tall ceilings and lots of space just to move about.

Visually pleasant terminals and tall ceilings are useles if people working underneath these ceilings are arrogant rude and/or on strike all the time and signage is user-unfriendly mess (CDG) or the genius who designed DXB did not realize that 5 gates at far ends of the terminal all handling departure of widebodies at the same time easily means concentration of well over 1000 people for whom 3 toilets are simply not enough.
 
hz747300
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:07 pm

Americans going through DXB to get to the US??? That would seemingly double the journey time. But the SeatDumpLiner does make the $$$ work, though one would have to be really hard up.

For J, I priced a ticket home for the wife and I at Christmas, we ended up choosing AC because of cost and comfort, though the later landing time at YVR means staying overnight on the way to PHX. However, what shocked me was the price for EK was only HK$60k all in for two people! That's insane. They routed HKG-DXB-SEA-PHX, which given the timings, meant no A380 on EK, only the 77Ws.

Will people fly EK, to the US and EU via Japan, sure they will. I have my doubts it will be enough to make that a sustainable market. Japan -> ME, Africa, South America, do make sense. Given the huge Brazil / Japan (and a lot of South America actually) connections, probably a feasible enough business.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Viscount724
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting B8887 (Reply 7):
Rather than flying to Frankfurt or Amsterdam (or Zurich) and connecting there, I think many people just go with Emirates despite being a bit longer on an already long journey.

It's much more than "a bit longer" via DXB to NRT. Almost 1/3 further is more than a bit. From many points in Europe it's roughly 2,000 miles (1.700 nm) further via DXB to NRT than via other major hubs. And when you connect at most of the other hubs you can usually avoid a 10-abreast EK 777.

Example from GVA:

GVA-DXB-NRT 6,976 nm

GVA-HEL-NRT 5,315 nm
GVA-ZRH-NRT 5,318 nm
GVA-FRA-NRT 5,319 nm
GVA-SVO-NRT 5,369 nm
GVA-AMS-NRT 5,413 nm
GVA-CDG-NRT 5,476 nm
GVA-LHR-NRT 5,599 nm
 
YLWbased
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:22 am

This makes me wonder, if let say flying Y on JL from NRT to let say DFW is exactly the same as flying J on EK but double the flight time going through DXB, what would you choose?

Just wondering  

YLWbased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:32 am

While DXB (along with AUH & DOH) are not within natural traffic flows between Japan/Korea & EU, they can still be competitive. For a routing that would take pax from Tokyo to Athens, NRT-DXB-ATH can be more desirable than NRT-FRA-ATH or NRT-CDG-ATH. It avoids a longer sector on short haul aircraft and if you're in J then EK's cabin on DXB-ATH beats anything intra-EU.

Another example is pax Australia-South Africa. Despite the long detour to DXB (and the shorter detour via SIN) there are plenty of pax that fly with EK & SQ to JNB. I believe EK & EY also pick up pax flying Australia-India!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 16):
While DXB (along with AUH & DOH) are not within natural traffic flows between Japan/Korea & EU, they can still be competitive. For a routing that would take pax from Tokyo to Athens, NRT-DXB-ATH can be more desirable than NRT-FRA-ATH or NRT-CDG-ATH. It avoids a longer sector on short haul aircraft

I would prefer a nonstop NRT-FRA (less than 1 hour longer than NRT-DXB) followed by about 2.5 hrs in the European business class product to ATH instead of 5 hours on EK DXB-ATH. And you still avoid the 10-abreast EK 777.

NRT-DXB-ATH 6,085 nm

NRT-FRA-ATH 6,053 nm
NRT-ZRH-ATH 6,079 nm
NRT-AMS-ATH 6,223, nm
 
[email protected]
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:08 am

Certainly it is longer, but quite often the price difference is so essential that it makes sense...
When we get company visitors from Europe (mostly Germany) the most are coming with EK and often start their Asian trip in ICN or BJS possible going back from HKG, SIN or PVG, certainly they spend a few hours more in the air, but anyway to have a full week of work they fly over the weekend. Finally the EK rate of ~2400 EUR in J vs. others of ~3300 to 6000 EUR often justify the longer trip.
The funny thing is that if you start your trip in Asia, EK it is often not the cheapest anymore, but since last year it's AF/KL and recently SU.
 
Lentini2001
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:10 am

People have mentioned that (for example) a direct flight from LHR is a better option than via Dubai.

For me it would be quicker to go via Dubai than to travel from Birmingham UK to LHR!! Let me explain.

I dont drive, therefore I have to get a National Express coach. Check it times are usually 3 hours (sometimes 2) before the flight so if my flight was 18:00, I would need to be at the airport for 16:00 then I would need to make sure whichever coach I was catching would get me to LHR on time the check in so it all becomes some vicious circle.

I remember once, because of coach timings, I was on Virgins 22:00 flight to Hong Kong and had to leave my home a little after 15:00 to get there.

That 7 hours would get me to Dubai!!

Anyway, probably pointless post but there you go.
 
pa747sp
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:09 am

Quoting B8887 (Thread starter):
Both flights in and out of Dubai were packed in all classes.

I have the feeling this flight could be upgraded to double or triple daily both to Haneda and Narita, or to A380 for the two current daily flights to both airports.

Those flights may have been full but that doesn't necessarily indicate that load factors are good all year, or that yields are good. It could be that spare or new capacity will get better returns on different routes.
Nothing seems as good since the VC10.
 
B8887
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:46 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 15):
This makes me wonder, if let say flying Y on JL from NRT to let say DFW is exactly the same as flying J on EK but double the flight time going through DXB, what would you choose?

You can ask the same question from European destinations.

Say, you are flying from Lyon, France, to Tokyo.

Would you fly Air France in Business through Paris or with Emirates through Dubai in First, for about the same price...

Just wondering...

B8887
 
PHX787
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:06 am

I met an EK pilot here once and he told me that the A380 flight was always overbooked. A large chunk of these pax were going to India.
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airbazar
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 8):
Pray tell what advantage of "good facilities" in overrated DXB there is which one does not find at AMS, ZRH or HEL? Detour via DXB is not worth it even with reasonable connection time and the arrival time to HND is just awful.

Tell that to the thousands of Europeans doing that every day. The vast majority of people don't care and don't even consider the detour. All they see is the price. The same thing happens every day across the Atlantic with airlines like TK. People are flying between the U.S. and Western Europe via IST by the hundreds because it's a few dollars cheaper. The European politicians just don't get it: price is king in this industry. They keep adding and raising taxes and making them uncompetitive.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:32 pm

They could make DXB-NRT a A380 flight and DXB-HND a 77W flight, if they want more capacity.
Strangely, the A380 is prohibited at HND despite the int'l terminal having an A380 gate.
Though, I have heard it's only a daytime restriction.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 10):
I think the most convenient hubs to connect in Europe happen to be Madrid and Charles de Gaulle.

Personnal preferences aside, MAD is a terrible connecting hub for a flight from Japan. First there are no direct non-stop flights, so a moot point.
Even if there was a non-stop flight, only destinations in Portugal, parts of Spain, and some parts of North Africa are the only destinations that do not require some or signfiicant amount of backtracking.
As for CDG - Japanese like the French.  
 
B8887
Topic Author
Posts: 457
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 2):
EK is limited by the current bilateral which was just expanded in the Summer of 2013 to 14 weekly flights into NRT, plus 7 weekly to HND. I'm not sure how soon Japan would be willing to renegotiate the bilateral given that the current one has been in effect for only 1 year.

Thank you for this information...

Any idea when we might see a change in frequencies or an upgrade in equipment?...

I think the increase in frequency to Narita will come first, before the upgrade in equipment, but that is just my take on it...

B8887
 
airbazar
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:33 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 24):
Even if there was a non-stop flight, only destinations in Portugal, parts of Spain, and some parts of North Africa are the only destinations that do not require some or signfiicant amount of backtracking.

And all of Latin America which is not a small market. MAD is just as inconvenient as DXB for Europe-Asia connections. And 200,000+ annual passengers to/from Asia from LIS alone on top of Spain's own market is not an insignificant number either. At the end of the day MAD doesn't work for the same reason that other European hubs are losing passengers to the ME3 and geography has nothing to do with it.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting Lentini2001 (Reply 19):
People have mentioned that (for example) a direct flight from LHR is a better option than via Dubai.

For me it would be quicker to go via Dubai than to travel from Birmingham UK to LHR!! Let me explain.

I dont drive, therefore I have to get a National Express coach. Check it times are usually 3 hours (sometimes 2) before the flight so if my flight was 18:00, I would need to be at the airport for 16:00 then I would need to make sure whichever coach I was catching would get me to LHR on time the check in so it all becomes some vicious circle.

I remember once, because of coach timings, I was on Virgins 22:00 flight to Hong Kong and had to leave my home a little after 15:00 to get there.

That 7 hours would get me to Dubai!!

It does make sense to fly out of a smaller regional airport than having to trek all the way to an international airport like LHR. However, you would have saved time connecting in CDG, AMS, ZRH or FRA which all have nonstop flights to BHX. Emirates has an advantage to destinations in India/Australia etc where you can fly nonstop from DXB but there are no nonstop flights through the hubs in Europe. For cities like ICN, NRT, HND, KIX, there are plenty of options nonstop from the major European hubs. This hurts Emirates and I think is a reason why they are relatively small to North East Asia.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 24):
Though, I have heard it's only a daytime restriction.

The restrictions in this country make me wonder if the people who draw them up are 5 year olds.
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Carpethead
Posts: 2617
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 26):
And all of Latin America which is not a small market.

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally forgot about that market.
However, I would think anybody going to say Mexico to far south as Panama in Central America would go trans-Pac.
Venezuela, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador is abviously quicker over the Pacific but perhaps those that don't want to mess with US visa requirements may go over the Atlantic.
Argentina, Brazil, Chile, etc are long-haul either way!
 
airbazar
Posts: 9899
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Emirates In Tokyo

Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 29):
However, I would think anybody going to say Mexico to far south as Panama in Central America would go trans-Pac.

That used to be the most popular alternative and to an extent it still is. However the immigration process in the US for transferring passengers is too much to bare and if you don't already have a Visa, such a requirement adds both money and hassle. For that reason U.S. cities have been losing the connecting passenger to European carriers and more recently to the likes of EK and QR.

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