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globalflyer
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What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:31 pm

I am looking to book a flight in late October to DAL. I notice that DL has upgraded all flights from the 50 seat CRJ-200 to the CRJ-900 as the Wright Amendment will be lifted by then. I am curious though what gate will DL operate from since VX won the slots?
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Sooner787
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:40 pm

none....they are moving everything to DFW

I asked out UA Sales rep last week if UA was planning
to share their gates at Love Field with DL and he said absolutely not.

BTW....the old Terminal 2 that UA and DL have been operating

from DAL closes Oct 1 & I assume will be torn down soon thereafter.
 
AA737-823
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 1):
I notice that DL has upgraded all flights from the 50 seat CRJ-200 to the CRJ-900 as the Wright Amendment will be lifted by then. I am curious though what gate will DL operate from since VX won the slots?

Last I checked, there were also 717 flights!

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 1):
I asked out UA Sales rep last week if UA was planning
to share their gates at Love Field with DL and he said absolutely not.

BTW....the old Terminal 2 that UA and DL have been operating

from DAL closes Oct 1 & I assume will be torn down soon thereafter.

UA doesn't have a say in the matter; they get PREFERENTIAL USE of their two gates. So, unless they suddenly plan to run 35 daily Embraers to IAH, then there will be down time, during which Delta- or anybody else- can use their gates.
That's according to the revised Wright Amendment that was signed in 2006.

At least, that's the prevailing theory here on a.net.
Besides, UA doesn't even run enough daily flights to justify the two gates they lease as it is. I fly UA out of Love quite frequently, and I always wonder why they squat on that second gate, when they're typically running five flights a day or so.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):


So, unless they suddenly plan to run 35 daily Embraers to IAH, then there will be down time, during which Delta- or anybody else- can use their gates.

I for one am surprised they haven't announced some flights to ORD, DEN, EWR and/or SFO. That would eat up whatever good times there might be on those gates. Heck, 4 each to just ORD and DEN would kill the gate times for anyone else.
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steex
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 3):
I for one am surprised they haven't announced some flights to ORD, DEN, EWR and/or SFO. That would eat up whatever good times there might be on those gates. Heck, 4 each to just ORD and DEN would kill the gate times for anyone else.

But DAL isn't turf worth protecting to UA, really. They did run 50-seaters to DEN after the merger and that service went away, so presumably wasn't profitable.

Given those two points, I suspect UA welcomes any competition that may make life harder for WN, and having someone else foot the bill for that competition (DL, in this case) rather than paying to fly unprofitable DEN/ORD flights is all the better.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:15 am

So..... Will DL be flying in/out of DAL post-WA or not??  
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737tdi
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:06 am

Just looked at flights out of DAL for DL on DEC. 31 at 7:25 on a Boeing 717-200. It is $88. Heck if I wanted to fly to ATL that is a heck of a price. So I guess DL is going to continue out of DAL. If you want to watch fireworks in ATL there you go. LOL.

To answer the question though I think both DL and UA are going to continue to fly out of DAL plus Virgin. Looked at WNs price and it was $50 higher. Later in et evening WN is at $89. Just comparing non-stops. DL has 3 and WN has 4 and the prices are inverted. DL cheaper in the morning and WN cheaper in the evening. Weird??

Anyway looks like DL is running three flights (1 on a 717 and 2 on CRJ900) and WN is flying 4 o 737s of course.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:16 am

Verrrrrrry interesting! Glad to see such competition and diversity, even with so many recent mergers! Viewing the skies above my home in east Dallas should become much more interesting by the end of the year!
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AA737-823
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 5):
So..... Will DL be flying in/out of DAL post-WA

Well, not that schedules are the de facto guide to the future, but I do think that if Delta knew they were going to be disallowed from flying to DAL, they'd have stopped scheduling flights- and selling tickets!- by now. It's been over a month since Virgin American 'won' the gates.
And I've done some more checking since my last post; United has five flights some days, seven on other days, but still- hardly a need for TWO gates. They keep scheduling CR7's in the future, but when that day gets here, it's always reverted back to ERJ's and CR2's thus far.

Quoting steex (Reply 4):
But DAL isn't turf worth protecting to UA, really

Don't be so sure; while the market is very very limited, the word on the street was that Continental did extremely well with Love Field flights, because a large number of tickets were walk up, full Y fares.
Obviously, DEN didn't pan out the same way. I wonder whether ORD would or not. Or EWR. I kinda doubt it.
But I've long enjoyed Continental's, and now United's, secret service to Love Field. I can go from rental car return to sitting at my gate in less than ten minutes... easily! That will change with the new terminal, though.
 
steex
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Don't be so sure; while the market is very very limited, the word on the street was that Continental did extremely well with Love Field flights, because a large number of tickets were walk up, full Y fares.

I don't disagree with that at all, but I think it is unique to Houston and thus UA (and CO before it) can do a solid business between DAL and IAH. The ties aren't nearly as strong with the other UA hub cities, and there isn't the inertia of longstanding service, so I don't think UA would have the same level of success. Because of that, I was simply saying that UA would have no interest in adding ORD or DEN service just to increase gate utilization and block DL's access.
 
AA737-823
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting steex (Reply 9):
I don't disagree with that at all, but I think it is unique to Houston and thus UA (and CO before it) can do a solid business between DAL and IAH. The ties aren't nearly as strong with the other UA hub cities, and there isn't the inertia of longstanding service, so I don't think UA would have the same level of success. Because of that, I was simply saying that UA would have no interest in adding ORD or DEN service just to increase gate utilization and block DL's access.

I'm inclined to agree, and that sorta goes with the rest of what I said up above. BUT- here's to hoping we're both wrong, and the UA makes a success- even if just slight- out of KDAL.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:32 am

Quoting steex (Reply 9):
I don't disagree with that at all, but I think it is unique to Houston and thus UA (and CO before it) can do a solid business between DAL and IAH. The ties aren't nearly as strong with the other UA hub cities, and there isn't the inertia of longstanding service, so I don't think UA would have the same level of success. Because of that, I was simply saying that UA would have no interest in adding ORD or DEN service just to increase gate utilization and block DL's access.

UA can make EWR work. They will be only airline serving DAL-EWR. If they add DAL-EWR and DAL-SFO, I will never ask UA for anything again. Seriously, EWR is needed badly. That will open UA vast European & International network from DAL with one stop. I know many people that live around me that are excited Wright will be going away and they will not have to go to DFW again. I plan to never step foot on DFW Airport ever again once Wright is gone. UA will lose my business to SFO, LAX and NYC as I will be flying VX since UA is not offering non stops. I will even fly WN now too if needed. I think as more people experience DAL that live in Dallas, they will choose DAL over DFW. I discovered DAL in 1998 via CO and never looked back. UA will missing the boat if they don't add more flights at DAL.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting globalflyer (Thread starter):
I am curious though what gate will DL operate from since VX won the slots?

If DL ends up sharing gate space with UA then they'll be operating out of either Gate 15 or Gate 17. Those are the two UA gates at Love Field. VX will operate out of Gates 11 & 13, and WN has the rest of the gates.

LoneStarMike
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
f Delta knew they were going to be disallowed from flying to DAL, they'd have stopped scheduling flights- and selling tickets!- by now. It's been over a month since Virgin American 'won' the gates.

Yup. Moreover, the fact that the DL and K5 schedules line up perfectly for sharing a gate (and yet, according to some folks, neither has a gate) is unlikely to be a coincidence.
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GSPSPOT
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:42 pm

[quote=CO777DAL,reply=11]I think as more people experience DAL that live in Dallas, they will choose DAL over DFW. I discovered DAL in 1998 via CO and never looked back. UA will missing the boat if they don't add more flights at DAL. [quote]
My feelings about DAL and its airlines' success there exactly! The city is going to need to figure out how to more directly connect DAL with the DART train system for sure IMO.

[Edited 2014-09-25 07:44:31]
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Sooner787
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:08 pm

I also asked out UA rep if they planned to increase their sked
out of Love, he responded by saying that DAL is contracted
out to Expressjet and he didn't think UA could revise their
schedules until that contact came up for renewal.

It appears UA doesn't need 2 gates, perhaps the City of Dallas
will have to force UAs hand and grant their 2nd gate to DL.

Haven't heard a thing about this on local news, so I
have no idea how this will pan out.

Meanwhile, check this SABRE display for 14Oct DAL- ATL...

114OCTDALATL6A‡DL«
14OCT TUE DAL/CDT ATL/EDT‡1
1DL 2559 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 9 700A 1005A 717 R 0 DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9
2DL/** 5104 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 8 1003A 103P CR9 R 0 XJ DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U8 T2
3DL/** 5154 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 7 1240P 344P CR9 R 0 DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9
4DL 2060 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 7 335P 636P 717 R 0 XJS DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9
5DL/** 5326 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 6 559P 902P CR9 R 0 XJ DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9
6DL 1890 F9 P9 A9*DFWATL 9 545A 851A M88 R 0 DCA /E
G8 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9
* - FOR ADDITIONAL CLASSES ENTER 1*C.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 15):
I also asked out UA rep if they planned to increase their sked out of Love, he responded by saying that DAL is contracted out to Expressjet and he didn't think UA could revise their schedules until that contact came up for renewal.

Great. We've now verified that he has no idea what he is talking about. Take a look at all of the weekly EV schedule changes in the OAG threads.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Dallas
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:31 pm

So if UA is not fully utilizing their gates, which they are not, why is it a given that DL will/should get access to that other gate? I'm a bit lost on why DL is automatically getting the gates when WN has been fighting and expressing interest as well.
 
steex
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 17):
So if UA is not fully utilizing their gates, which they are not, why is it a given that DL will/should get access to that other gate? I'm a bit lost on why DL is automatically getting the gates when WN has been fighting and expressing interest as well.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the agreement states that every carrier that wants it has to be allowed access to a gate if it is not being otherwise utilized. As Southwest already has access to the majority of the gates, they cannot demand use of the other (UA/VX) gates over carriers that otherwise have no access whatsoever.
 
AA737-823
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Great. We've now verified that he has no idea what he is talking about.

My thoughts verbatim. He clearly doesn't know how this works.
Continental/United have adjusted their DAL schedules several times.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 17):
So if UA is not fully utilizing their gates, which they are not, why is it a given that DL will/should get access to that other gate?

Because they are PREFERENTIAL USE gates. UA gets to use them whenever they want, but when they're not in use, other carriers get to use them.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 17):
en WN has been fighting and expressing interest as well.

WN agreed to 16 gates- no more, no fewer, at DAL as part of the repeal of Wright.
They fought hard for those two gates that Virgin got, and they had a good argument, but in the end, the name of the game is INCREASING the number of carriers competing, not increasing the competition of one carrier.
 
lucianflyboy
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:41 pm

[quote=Sooner787,reply=15]114OCTDALATL6A‡DL«
14OCT TUE DAL/CDT ATL/EDT‡1
1DL 2559 F9 P9 A9*DALATL 9 700A 1005A 717 R 0 DCA /E
G9 Y9 B9 M9 S9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9

Looks like it's all B717 from 9/3.
 
CO777DAL
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 15):
I also asked out UA rep if they planned to increase their sked
out of Love, he responded by saying that DAL is contracted
out to Expressjet and he didn't think UA could revise their
schedules until that contact came up for renewal.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Great. We've now verified that he has no idea what he is talking about. Take a look at all of the weekly EV schedule changes in the OAG threads.
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 19):
My thoughts verbatim. He clearly doesn't know how this works.
Continental/United have adjusted their DAL schedules several times.

I think what the employee might be referring to is mainline vs regional. When Larry Kellner was CEO of Continental I spoke to him about DAL just about every time we talked. We had a very in-depth discussion on DAL back when CO was flying 16 flights a day. I asked him why not fly mainline into DAL. It came down to staffing. He told me if they flew mainline at DAL, they have to use CO mainline employees. Back then ExpressJet ran the ops at DAL. I don't know what kind of agreements UA have with staff, but whatever restriction they have on staffing seems to be still in play today. DAL/DFW are co terminals. I know other cities with UA mainline in other parts of the country are outsourced. I think all Texas cities with UA mainline are staffed by UA mainline employees. This might be some sort of hold over from CO days. IAH, DFW, SAT, AUS have mainline and are all staffed by UA mainline.

I know it was complicated and someone at UA might know the exact rules. LK said that if a mainline flights are scheduled after x number of months, the flights had to be worked by mainline employees. I'm guessing that still is in play in Dallas market. If DFW every get outsourced then a contractor would also be able to work DAL flights. Since DAL is outsourced it looks like they can't fly mainline there. Maybe UA is waiting for their current contract with American Eagle to expire before making changes. I'm sure UA is working on something, but like with everything else with this merger it is complicated.

Also if UA wants to send E-175 to DAL from EWR and SFO, I can see them waiting until hot food starts on those planes next year as they would not want to give First Class and business men a bad impression with snack boxes on these new routes. DAL-EWR and DAL-SFO would have lots of paid first and be business heavy because DAL location. DAL-IAH can be very business heavy flight depending on day and time. Almost every DAL-IAH has been going out full. It is rare to have an empty seat on any flight. The ERJ-135s are some of the most costly planes to operate. UA seems to be sending them to DAL a lot now because they can still make money with them flying that route because of the yields and it frees up larger RJs to other marginal markets as they continue to reduce RJ capacity.

He also mention that another problem would be DAL would need a club because of high business traffic.
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:49 pm

What has or will become of WN's former concourse?
 
airliner371
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting AAtakeMeAway (Reply 22):
What has or will become of WN's former concourse?

It's been torn down.
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
UA doesn't have a say in the matter; they get PREFERENTIAL USE of their two gates. So, unless they suddenly plan to run 35 daily Embraers to IAH, then there will be down time, during which Delta- or anybody else- can use their gates.

Well, according to this week OAG thread, UA increases DAL-IAH to 11-12 daily from Jan 2015 as if you knew it will come   UA is in the gate-blocking game.

OAG Changes 10/3/2014: AA/B6/DL/F9/UA (by enilria Sep 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 24):
UA is in the gate-blocking game.

Not really. Here are the scheduled departures for Monday, January 26. UA sure looks to be scheduling around the DL and K5 departures.

UA 0645
DL 0700
UA 0810
K5 0835
UA 0915
DL 1005
UA 1040
UA 1145
DL 1250
UA 1315
UA 1415
DL 1540
UA 1550
K5 1640
UA 1650
DL 1805
UA 1820
UA 1920
UA 2050
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jetblue1965
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):

UA 0645
DL 0700
UA 0810
K5 0835
UA 0915
DL 1005
UA 1040
UA 1145
DL 1250
UA 1315
UA 1415
DL 1540
UA 1550
K5 1640
UA 1650
DL 1805
UA 1820
UA 1920
UA 2050

Aren't there only 2 gates ? So this is 9.5 flights per gate ? That's a ridiculously high gate utilization if they can pull it off reliably.
 
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
UA 0915
DL 1005
UA 1040
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Aren't there only 2 gates ? So this is 9.5 flights per gate ? That's a ridiculously high gate utilization if they can pull it off reliably.

Without seeing the turn lengths and without knowing the separation rules granted the primary gate user we can't really tell.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):

Without seeing the turn lengths and without knowing the separation rules granted the primary gate user we can't really tell.

just out of curiousity, can UA spike their departures to 18/day and essentially force DL off the gates completely ?
 
e38
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:39 pm

With reference to comment by airliner371 (Reply 23), "It's been torn down,"

That is correct.

I remember when that concourse was the "Green Councourse, American Airlines, Gates 1 - 8." It was all ground-level boarding and you had a great view of American's Boeing 707, 727, Convair 990, and BAC One-Eleven Astrojets as well as Lockheed Electras.

e38
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 9):
Because of that, I was simply saying that UA would have no interest in adding ORD or DEN service just to increase gate utilization and block DL's access.

UA just spiked DAL-IAH from 6x to 12x daily, essentially preventing DL from launching more services other than ATL.

DEN won't add much value, but I see DAL-SFO and DAL-EWR (agreeing with CO777DAL) bringing tremendous value if ever added.
 
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 28):
just out of curiousity, can UA spike their departures to 18/day and essentially force DL off the gates completely ?

I believe they can as the preferential holder. In theory another carrier would be asked to accommodate them, but it seems to me every gate is pretty heavily used.

Quoting enilria (Reply 27):
Without seeing the turn lengths and without knowing the separation rules granted the primary gate user we can't really tell.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
Not really. Here are the scheduled departures for Monday, January 26. UA sure looks to be scheduling around the DL and K5 departures.

I looked at the turn schedule for Jan 23. I disagree completely. The UA flights have VERY long turns. They are purposely set to overlap each other and use two gates. This is what happens when you don't look at the detail info. DL is locked out.

UA's Turn lengths
0645 out RON
0810 out RON
0745 in, 0915 out
0909 in, 1040 out
1014 in, 1145 out
1143 in, 1315 out
1243 in, 1415 out
1420 in, 1550 out
1520 in, 1650 out
1650 in, 1820 out
1750 in, 1920 out
1920 in, 2050 out
2020 in RON
2208 in RON
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
Not really. Here are the scheduled departures for Monday, January 26. UA sure looks to be scheduling around the DL and K5 departures.

Here are arrivals and departures of UA in DAL in Jan 26th:

Arrival
745
909
1014
1143
1243
220
320
450
550
720
820
1008

Departure
645
810
835 (K5)
915
1040
1145
115
215
350
440 (K5)
450
620
720
850

I seriously hope this is not UA's final schedule, but one aircraft departs 915am while the other arrives at 909am. It appears UA's turn-around time is 1h30m, making no room for DL. UA intentionally plans to use both gates (again, unless UA changes the schedule later.) Current UA's turn-around time is 30 minutes.
 
commavia
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
UA 0645
DL 0700
UA 0810
K5 0835
UA 0915
DL 1005
UA 1040
UA 1145
DL 1250
UA 1315
UA 1415
DL 1540
UA 1550
K5 1640
UA 1650
DL 1805
UA 1820
UA 1920
UA 2050
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
Aren't there only 2 gates ? So this is 9.5 flights per gate ? That's a ridiculously high gate utilization if they can pull it off reliably.

Very high utilization, but considering that the majority of turns on these gates will likely be scheduled for 30 minutes or less, it doesn't seem completely unreasonable. I believe Delta has typically been scheduling even their 717 turns for only 35-40 minutes.

Now, of course, needless to say, on any day when there are thunderstorms in Dallas and/or Houston - yeah, those days are going to be a mess for gates scheduled this tightly with so little margin for error. And, again, needless to say, those days aren't exactly "rare" in Texas in the spring.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 28):
just out of curiousity, can UA spike their departures to 18/day and essentially force DL off the gates completely ?

My understanding is yes - unless otherwise stipulated in sublease agreements between United and Delta/Seaport, United has preferential use over these gates, and thus first right of refusal over them. And since I would tend to doubt that United would have been stupid enough as to sign subleases that limited their freedom of motion in that way, my guess is that if they wanted to, they could schedule those gates in such a way - either utilization, or utilization at particular times - that renders them pretty much completely unusable for Delta, if not also perhaps Seaport, too.
 
commavia
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
I looked at the turn schedule for Jan 23. I disagree completely. The UA flights have VERY long turns. They are purposely set to overlap each other and use two gates. This is what happens when you don't look at the detail info. DL is locked out.
Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 32):
I seriously hope this is not UA's final schedule, but one aircraft departs 915am while the other arrives at 909am. It appears UA's turn-around time is 1h30m, making no room for DL. UA intentionally plans to use both gates (again, unless UA changes the schedule later.) Current UA's turn-around time is 30 minutes.

Ah - interesting - okay, so there we have it. If this is, in fact, United's final schedule, then yeah, looks like they're waiving Delta "bye bye."

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jetblue1965
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 33):
that renders them pretty much completely unusable for Delta, if not also perhaps Seaport, too.

I don't think UA cares one bit about that Seaport flight. The entire move is about sticking it to DL.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
Ah - interesting - okay, so there we have it. If this is, in fact, United's final schedule, then yeah, looks like they're waiving Delta "bye bye."

Indeed, and it also precludes K5's current schedule, though K5 has more flexibility. The complete schedule is below. It's a very cost-ineffective way to do it, though. They'd have been smarter to to schedule shorter turns closer to Delta's flight times. It's also very odd that they are not starting this schedule immediately. UA has a lot of slack on the ERJ fleet.

0645 out RON
0700 out RON Delta
0810 out RON
0745 in, 0915 out
0805 in, 0835 out Seaport
0909 in, 1040 out
0930 in, 1005 out Delta
1014 in, 1145 out
1210 in, 1250 out Delta
1143 in, 1315 out
1243 in, 1415 out
1500 in, 1540 out Delta
1420 in, 1550 out
1520 in, 1650 out
1555 in, 1630 out Seaport.
1730 in, 1805 out Delta
1650 in, 1820 out
1750 in, 1920 out
1920 in, 2050 out
2020 in RON
2155 in RON Delta
2208 in RON
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 32):
I seriously hope this is not UA's final schedule, but one aircraft departs 915am while the other arrives at 909am. It appears UA's turn-around time is 1h30m, making no room for DL.
Quoting commavia (Reply 34):
Ah - interesting - okay, so there we have it. If this is, in fact, United's final schedule, then yeah, looks like they're waiving Delta "bye bye."
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 35):
I don't think UA cares one bit about that Seaport flight. The entire move is about sticking it to DL.

By the way, just to clarify how airlines schedule flights. They do not simply put down a bunch of hub arrival and departure times. They have a graphical schedule system software where you basically draw a box for the flight and then the next flight and so on, one aircraft line at a time. You can then shuffle the boxes and flip flights between aircraft. All these schedules are "fleeted" meaning that they balance to their actual fleet count...with the exception being really distant schedules 6+ months out that are sometimes pieces of closer in schedules stitched together and not "fleeted". The scheduling software also verifies the number of gates used versus available gate assets in each city.

My point is that the turns in this schedule and the number of aircraft used due to the excessive turns was well noted as this schedule was created along with gate usage. It's not just lazy work. That doesn't mean they won't be pressured to change it, but it was intentional to schedule such long ground times and the two gate operational level was completely unnecessary and purposeful. We'll see what kind of ruckus DL makes.

BTW, let me wrap this up by saying I don't blame UA. I'd probably do the same thing, although I think UA is only helping AA/WN which doesn't make a ton of sense (I wonder if DL's DAL/DFW-LAX is part of the reason). The real problem is this asinine and extremely anti-competitive deal to protect WN and to some extent AA that should never have been allowed in the first place. It is a perversion of the free market system to allow one carrier to essentially own an entire government controlled airport funded through tax dollars and customer user fees.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
BTW, let me wrap this up by saying I don't blame UA. I'd probably do the same thing, although I think UA is only helping AA/WN which doesn't make a ton of sense (I wonder if DL's DAL/DFW-LAX is part of the reason).

  

This had been my thinking too. It seems like ATL-DAL hurts AA/WN more than additional frequencies on IAH-DAL, and in that situation UA would be spending DL's money rather than its own to do it. That seemed to me (and still seems to me) to be a win-win for UA.

Quoting enilria (Reply 37):
We'll see what kind of ruckus DL makes.

They ought to just request gate space in the (fairly long) periods in which UA only needs one gate. It seems like the two could play whack-a-mole for a while if they wanted.
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
This had been my thinking too. It seems like ATL-DAL hurts AA/WN more than additional frequencies on IAH-DAL, and in that situation UA would be spending DL's money rather than its own to do it. That seemed to me (and still seems to me) to be a win-win for UA.

I'm sure it is part of the larger rivalry between the two and LAX seems like a possible crux in that battle. OTOH, UA responded aggressively when DL added SEA-SFO.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
They ought to just request gate space in the (fairly long) periods in which UA only needs one gate. It seems like the two could play whack-a-mole for a while if they wanted.

We'd have to see what the policy on turn length is for a preferential carrier. The turns are all 90 minutes. My guess is that a few moved by a minute one way or another due to flow control in IAH or block time adjustments that came into play after the original schedule was sent for final adjustment to the "Current Schedules Group". The fact the turns were almost certainly uniformly 90 minutes before they happened tells me that they are allowed to have 90 minute turns. Those uniform turns do not help connectivity in IAH. My guess is that they will go back in and slide them to re-establish the turns to exactly 90 minutes.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
We'd have to see what the policy on turn length is for a preferential carrier.

Air21 would trump the leases, though, wouldn't it?

Of course, all of this also ignores VX's gates. With the scissors hub they plan, those gates should have quite a lot of free time.
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ScottB
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
The UA flights have VERY long turns. They are purposely set to overlap each other and use two gates. This is what happens when you don't look at the detail info. DL is locked out.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
It seems like ATL-DAL hurts AA/WN more than additional frequencies on IAH-DAL, and in that situation UA would be spending DL's money rather than its own to do it. That seemed to me (and still seems to me) to be a win-win for UA.

To be honest, I don't really get the strategy. The biggest beneficiary of DL being locked out of DAL-ATL will be WN, as they would end up with a monopoly in the airport-pair market. Now, it's not as if ERJ's are in short supply at XE, but this will also be an inefficient way to schedule pilots if they're burning an extra hour of their duty day sitting at DAL.

The only potential route DL might add which could "matter" to UA would be DAL-LAX, which will already be very well-served with both WN & VX operating it. I think DAL-LGA would have very limited overlap with DFW-EWR as LGA & EWR are more distinct sub-markets than DAL & DFW -- and both WN & VX will also operate that.

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
The fact the turns were almost certainly uniformly 90 minutes before they happened tells me that they are allowed to have 90 minute turns.

That's what I thought upon seeing your schedule as well. The other interesting tidbit is that the open times for the gates are almost uniformly an hour (or very close to it). I wonder if the gate usage policy also precludes the City from scheduling another carrier on a gate if it's available for an hour or less.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Of course, all of this also ignores VX's gates. With the scissors hub they plan, those gates should have quite a lot of free time.

With the leases being preferential use, the City is supposed to have a procedure for reviewing gate usage and finding available times, if possible. So I'd expect that they'd look at both VX's and WN's gates to find time slots for DL's operations, although DL might not be able to get the exact times they want.
 
SWADawg
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:08 pm

I agree with Enilria. The Post Wright Amendment compromise is completely anticompetitive to other carriers that want access to DAL. Therefore, I propose lifting the 20 gate cap back to the original 32 gate master plan. Give WN 24-26 gates and that will leave 6-8 preferential use or CUTE gates to allow other Airlines to access DAL. The Airport will then more closely resemble HOU, where B6, DL, and AA all have their own gates with an additional city owned CUTE gate. Let's start a petition. I'll be the first to sign.  
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
usflyguy
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
Now, it's not as if ERJ's are in short supply at XE, but this will also be an inefficient way to schedule pilots if they're burning an extra hour of their duty day sitting at DAL.

I'm pretty sure ExpressJet already has 90 minute turns at stations throughout the system so this isn't something that they don't do elsewhere.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
We'd have to see what the policy on turn length is for a preferential carrier.

Air21 would trump the leases, though, wouldn't it?

I don't think so. I thought this DAL deal trumped Air21. The whole deal is not consistent with anything else in terms of competitive access.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
With the leases being preferential use, the City is supposed to have a procedure for reviewing gate usage and finding available times, if possible. So I'd expect that they'd look at both VX's and WN's gates to find time slots for DL's operations, although DL might not be able to get the exact times they want.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Of course, all of this also ignores VX's gates. With the scissors hub they plan, those gates should have quite a lot of free time.

Agreed. The pressure now falls to VX. One might speculate is that what the goal really is? Not sure I see the full strategy other than to simply try to lock DL out of DAL. It's not as if the financial results of DAL-IAH have any reason to improve as a result of the recent changes. If anything, it is clearly the opposite. Results should decline from all the new long flights where UA had limited competition.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 41):
I wonder if the gate usage policy also precludes the City from scheduling another carrier on a gate if it's available for an hour or less.

Good theory. It def looks like 90 minutes is a key to holding the gates. A schedule built for connectivity would not have uniform long turns.

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 42):

I agree with Enilria. The Post Wright Amendment compromise is completely anticompetitive to other carriers that want access to DAL. Therefore, I propose lifting the 20 gate cap back to the original 32 gate master plan
Quoting SWADawg (Reply 42):
Let's start a petition. I'll be the first to sign.

I've seen this thing coming for years. I don't know how such an awful deal was ever allowed. It's not like WN can't dominate a similar airport (MDW) without the aid of a law preventing competition. This is even worse than allowing AA/US control of DCA because here it is nearly a complete monopoly and VX is supposed to be some sort of savior while Delta is forced out. What a joke. This is what happens when special interests run amok and they start creating laws that throw away capitalism and promotion of competition. Very sad to see it hit this industry specifically and particularly now as the number of sizable airlines is waning by the year.

Again, don't blame United for taking advantage of the playing field. Blame your politicians for legalizing essentially a permanent monopoly by ensuring nobody can hope to compete in scale with WN.
 
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flying_727
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 42):
Therefore, I propose lifting the 20 gate cap back to the original 32 gate master plan. Give WN 24-26 gates and that will leave 6-8 preferential use or CUTE gates to allow other Airlines to access DAL.

How about we stop the government interference non-sense and remove the restrictions and allow the market to determine what DAL looks like.
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Cubsrule
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
The pressure now falls to VX. One might speculate is that what the goal really is? Not sure I see the full strategy other than to simply try to lock DL out of DAL. It's not as if the financial results of DAL-IAH have any reason to improve as a result of the recent changes

It seems to me that VX might be interested in sharing, as DAL-ATL shouldn't have much impact on DAL-DCA/LGA and will have next to no impact on DAL-LAX/SFO. Then again, I thought sharing was in UA's interest too.

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
I thought this DAL deal trumped Air21. The whole deal is not consistent with anything else in terms of competitive access.

I don't know. Air21 doesn't generally require an airport to build gates that don't exist.
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jetblue1965
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Can someone give me a history lesson on why DL doesn't have preferential access to any gate ?
 
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enilria
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 46):
Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
I thought this DAL deal trumped Air21. The whole deal is not consistent with anything else in terms of competitive access.

I don't know. Air21 doesn't generally require an airport to build gates that don't exist.

That's true and I'm saying that I don't think Air21 applies here, although it should. There's no reason there aren't more gates.
 
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Polot
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RE: What Gate Will DL Use At DAL

Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 47):
Can someone give me a history lesson on why DL doesn't have preferential access to any gate ?

Because at the time that the Wright Amendment was repealed and the current (still stupid/incredibly anti-competitive) agreement was put into place DL did not serve DAL- only WN, AA, and CO did.

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