Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11088
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
A single tower out of service shouldn't cause this much disruption to air travel. This very much points out vulnerabilities. Probably 3 or 4 key towers across the country could take out the whole system.

Most of the disruption is simply due to the disrupted scheduling/movements preventing aircraft from being in their needed location for the airlines schedule. There is really no way to prevent that unless you expect airlines to keep a large "reserve fleet" on hand, which is silly.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Chisky16
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:22 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
My ORD-DTW flight was canceled and basically everything is booked solid or oversold. I was rebooked to Sunday which is unacceptable.

I'm not sure what you want anyone to do for you? This is out of the airlines' or anyone else's control. An incident happened, and it affected everyone. Drive or take the Amtrak if getting to Detroit before Sunday is necessary in your case.
Using common knowledge to save the day!
 
ChiGB1973
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:39 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:19 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 37):
Can anybody find out if this is why my flight tonight, WN 1099 is delayed? (SAN-SFO). I

One of my WN FA friends just got an extra night in SAN; she is awaiting hotel confirmation.

M
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Illinoisman,
First of all Chicago Center is not a tower. It's an enroute radar facility that is responsible for airspace as far east as Grand Rapids MI, and as far west as central Iowa. This facility owns down to 11,000ft and to the ground in a lot of areas all the way up, will absolutely cause extreme delays and it just so happens to be one of the busier level 12 facilities in the country.
I mean I see what you are saying in that one facility should not cause this many issues, but I personally have never heard of a center going ATC zero so it's not a common thing by any means, and it took a person to intentionally damage it to do it.
 
dinker225
Posts: 984
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 9:18 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
A single tower out of service shouldn't cause this much disruption to air travel. This very much points out vulnerabilities. Probably 3 or 4 key towers across the country could take out the whole system.

It isn't a single tower out of service. ORD tower is just fine. When you interrupt the the the facility providing service to the area above the entire region you end up with what you have today. This is a region of the country with thousands of flights a day both in and out of Chicago but also all flights over the region. Not sure what exactly you want the airline to do for you? Maybe travel insurance would have been a good choice for you?
Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
 
TW870
Posts: 1273
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:57 pm

I am actually surprised, as it looks like airplanes are starting to move again. Just a random visit to the DL website shows both the 5 o'clock ATL-ORD and MSP-ORD going fairly close to on time. Everything was cancelled until around 4, so I recognize that delays will likely worsen as more traffic enters the system. But there does seem to be a recovery. It is particularly bad that this happened on a Friday, as I am sure loads were already north of 90% on many key routes.
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1125
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
A single tower out of service shouldn't cause this much disruption to air travel. This very much points out vulnerabilities. Probably 3 or 4 key towers across the country could take out the whole system.

Do you know the difference between a tower and an ARTCC?
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
johnberg
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:54 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:11 pm

How is it determined which flights are allowed to depart and arrive? Is there something similar to a lottery?

[Edited 2014-09-26 15:16:55]
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 2525
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
My ORD-DTW flight was canceled and basically everything is booked solid or oversold. I was rebooked to Sunday which is unacceptable.

So drive! You're seriously going to wait two days for a flight from ORD to DTW? It's like 250-280 miles dude....
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
kraz911
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:39 pm

Hello again,

Its probably time for the "brains" to use the principle of no lone zones in facilities that are critical to the movement of people. It might have prevented this 36 year old electrician with knowledge of radar goof to go over the edge. Excuse me if I don't have the exact term at hand...
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9742
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:40 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 58):
It's like 250-280 miles dude....

And $34 on Amtrak for a 5 hour ride.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 997
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:18 am

Update PR from the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=17216&cid=TW253


Reports are ORD will be operating at 50% normal volume tomorrow.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5156
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:37 am

On a serius note what will happen to this guy? I guess first stop is the obligatory psych eval and observation at the puzzle house. Could we find out later this was linked to terrorism? Maybe as a dry run to see hal vulnerable our air traffic system really is?
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 5):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
Quoting lweber557 (Reply 29):
Quoting TPAJAY (Reply 34):

   to all of the above. Everyone has been adversly affected. Today at BWI has been a real Goat you know what

Of course the poor beleagured sould (oh the humanity) managed to live. Here's whats going to happen:
  • He will get one of those Hollywood lawyers like the ones that got Michael Jackson and OJ off.
  • Guest appearences on The View, Dr. Phil and for good measure Maury Povich to find out who was/his baby daddy.
  • Will be elevated to hero status in ISIS land. Maybe even get interviewed on "Bleet The Press," or "Deface The Nation"
  • Get his own reality show
  • Contestant on Dancing With The Stars/Big Brother House and Amazing Race
  • His pathetic life story will be made into a weepy touchy feely blockbuster by the big budget Hollyweird schlockmeisters


Today we already had dozens of justifiably ticked off passengers who would like northing better than to get a few minutes of Quality Time with this miscreant.

I wonder what his next trick will be?

And is is just coincidental that these ATC fires happened in the Chicago air space area?

[Edited 2014-09-26 18:45:54]
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
jayunited
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 61):
Reports are ORD will be operating at 50% normal volume tomorrow.

That is absolutely correct the person who set the fire at the facility not only set a fire but also cut the feeds to the radar and damaged the communications equipment. We are being told it will be some time before the control center is back up and running at 100%. So for at least tomorrow and maybe even Sunday both ORD and MDW will be operating but at a reduced volume.

We have just heard that WN has canceled the remainder of their operation at MDW and here at UA a bulletin was sent out earlier asking other stations not to send any connection passengers to ORD if possible and to try to reroute those passengers with connections thru other hubs or even on other carriers if those carriers will take them. To put it in perspective this situation is worst than the snow storm Chicago experienced this past winter.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 63):
That is absolutely correct the person who set the fire at the facility not only set a fire but also cut the feeds to the radar and damaged the communications equipment. We are being told it will be some time before the control center is back up and running at 100%.

I have to admit, part of me admires his thoroughness. The financial damage on WN and possibly other carriers is going to be noticeable. Is there not any redundancy built into these places? Anyone ever heard of a "Contingency Facility" over at the FAA?

God bless America.
 
YXwatcherMKE
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 3:06 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:15 am

Just how many Airports in the Chicago Center control were at ground stop? I know MKE and MSN were shut down most likely RFD, GRR, MKG, SPI, SBN, AZO, BMG, CID, DSM, LAN, MLI, PIA, and I'm sure it affected a ton of GA airports across the region. I know that the GA airport near my home was not moving very many a/c this morning. The only thing I heard fly over my place was our local Medical helo until after 1400 hours.
Here is a link to one of the MKE local media reports on the effect to MKE's traffic....

http://www.jrn.com/tmj4/news/Fire-at...-flights-in-Chicago-277197991.html

[Edited 2014-09-26 20:22:38]
I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
My ORD-DTW flight was canceled and basically everything is booked solid or oversold. I was rebooked to Sunday which is unacceptable.

and what would you like the airline to do about this situation?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
twincessna340a
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:26 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:28 am

 
User avatar
hufftheweevil
Posts: 785
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:08 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting YxwatcherMKE (Reply 65):
Just how many Airports in the Chicago Center control were at ground stop? I know MKE and MSN were shut down most likely RFD, GRR, MKG, SPI, SBN, AZO, BMG, CID, DSM, LAN, MLI, PIA, and I'm sure it affected a ton of GA airports across the region.

This has impacted airports across the country. Today was anything but routine for me at PHL. Dozens of flights delayed due to late inbound aircraft.
Huff
 
bigb
Posts: 1161
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:42 am

Quoting YxwatcherMKE (Reply 65):

Just how many Airports in the Chicago Center control were at ground stop? I know MKE and MSN were shut down most likely RFD, GRR, MKG, SPI, SBN, AZO, BMG, CID, DSM, LAN, MLI, PIA, and I'm sure it affected a ton of GA airports across the region. I know that the GA airport near my home was not moving very many a/c this morning. The only thing I heard fly over my place was our local Medical helo until after 1400 hours.
Here is a link to one of the MKE local media reports on the effect to MKE's traffic....

GA traffic should still be able to go VFR until they are in radar coverage of different Radar facility.
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 350
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:47 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 62):
On a serius note what will happen to this guy? I guess first stop is the obligatory psych eval and observation at the puzzle house. Could we find out later this was linked to terrorism? Maybe as a dry run to see hal vulnerable our air traffic system really is?

Not all nut cases are terrorists. (almost all are not) Some people are seeing a terrorist involvement in almost every incident.
This is a incident but as all planes are manned by highly trained professionals the passengers where not in danger.
Inconvenient yes, Danger no.
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:35 am

Wow, I can only imagine how tough it is on my co-workers on the front lines in the majorly affected cities. The small fire/smoke incident in the spring caused days of oversells, endless lines, general misery for thousands of our passengers. And that wasn't *that* bad!

Keep your heads up front-line teams!
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
jcwr56
Posts: 997
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:38 am

 
ozark1
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
A single tower out of service shouldn't cause this much disruption to air travel. This very much points out vulnerabilities. Probably 3 or 4 key towers across the country could take out the whole system.

Thus my continued feeling that the airlines take quite a bit of grief that is caused by the FAA. Too bad the flying public doesn't understand that.
 
ozark1
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
My ORD-DTW flight was canceled and basically everything is booked solid or oversold. I was rebooked to Sunday which is unacceptable.

Perhaps your use of the word "unacceptable" was not what you meant to convey. If it was then I assume you aren't a frequent traveler. It's all about flexibility.
 
WJ
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:14 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:36 pm

It still amazes me that as critical as these centers are, and especially the Chicago one, arguably the busiest in the country after New York, there is no back up facility. All traffic is being routed tower to tower in the region.

Towers seem to have redundancy, and within a couple hours of an outage, back up procedures are in place with equipment and people. This event seems to have had no established back up process and is all being made up as we go along

Makes you wonder that if the ATC management was privatized, that a private, for profit operation, would have a solution in place much quicker than the Feds.
146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6145
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:35 pm

This guy did us a favor by exposing this vulnerability before an overseas terrorist did.

I believe there was a book (fiction/thriller) that exposed ATC vulnerabilities to terrorists.

I will echo the disbelief that there is no back up center.

Every airline has a backup sys ops center. The government (with the ability to spend untold dollars) needs to have a backup that could be put into place (ie another center takes over with extra staffing/back up center/national back center)
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10377
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 76):
This guy did us a favor by exposing this vulnerability before an overseas terrorist did.

Not sure the nationality of the person who did it makes it better or worse. The result is the same and it was malicious regardless.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 997
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:26 pm

Currently, It looks like arrivals rate is 36 and departures are between 35-40 for ORD.

INDY MINI AND KANSAS CENTERS HAVE EXTENDED THEIR RANGE TO COVER ZAU.
 
diverted
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 3:17 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:34 pm

Just took a look at yesterday's stats. 200min+ delays on many of our flights. Looks like there's an AFP in place for today , with flights departing much closer to schedule and no cancellations thus far.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 73):
Thus my continued feeling that the airlines take quite a bit of grief that is caused by the FAA. Too bad the flying public doesn't understand that.

None of this was the FAA's fault. The FAA handles air traffic over the busiest chunk of airspace in the world. They were doing all they could to mitigate the problem and reopen the ARTCC as soon as possible. Besides, your comment is not really founded, since it is directed at a person (IllinoisMan, reply 48) that doesn't know the difference between a tower controller and an area controller.

Now clearly the LATTER is something the flying public doesn't understand !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2943
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 80):

You are missing the point. The fire may not have been the FAA's fault but it is their fault they don't seem to have adequate back up facilities or contingency plans in place. Like a previous poster said, the airlines are better equipped to handle situations like this.
 
User avatar
Miami
Posts: 6194
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Another 600+ flights canceled at ORD and MDW

Authorities said it could be days before flights are back on schedule.. Wish them luck.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting WJ (Reply 75):
Makes you wonder that if the ATC management was privatized, that a private, for profit operation, would have a solution in place much quicker than the Feds.

If the facility was operated by a government contractor, this would fall under Act of God unless the contract specifically required the contractor to take steps to mitigate or prevent scenarios such as this one. Since the FAA obviously doesn’t see the need for a backup facility, it wouldn’t require one in its contract with industry. If the FAA changes their mind tomorrow, they still can’t force the contractor to build out an offsite facility until a new contract kicks in, which could be 5 or 10 years down the road.

By then, the FAA would have its own backup facility up and running.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 76):
The government (with the ability to spend untold dollars) needs to have a backup that could be put into place (ie another center takes over with extra staffing/back up center/national back center)

The government doesn’t have untold dollars to spend, and even if it did, do we really want the government to plan for every single contingency? The questions are, how often does an ARTCC go completely dark, and how much would it cost to make sure it never happens.

Very few organizations, government or private, promise 100% uptime, and the ones that do are most likely lying. An insider attack is the hardest to plan for and mitigate against because they are inside and know the weaknesses of the system. In other words, they are by far the costliest to prevent.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4997
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 81):

Exactly
mercure f-wtcc
 
krsw757
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:22 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:28 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 81):
You are missing the point. The fire may not have been the FAA's fault but it is their fault they don't seem to have adequate back up facilities or contingency plans in place. Like a previous poster said, the airlines are better equipped to handle situations like this.

I think you're missing the point a well. So basically what you're saying is, every city that has a center facility should have a backup building just sitting empty in case of an extreme case like this? What a lot of people don't understand is, it's just not as simple as saying the surrounding centers and tracons can just inherit their airspace and everything will be smooth sailing. I'm sure ZAU has countless letters of agreement, sop's, and boundaries that are not covered in their own and adjacent facilities atc zero contingency plan, which every facility has. I doubt these plans are meant to cope with an entire facility to go atc zero for an extended amount of time. There are just way too many factors in play to make this manageable for a long period of time.
 
User avatar
illinoisman
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:07 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting ChiSky16 (Reply 51):
An incident happened, and it affected everyone. Drive or take the Amtrak if getting to Detroit before Sunday is necessary in your case.
Quoting dinker225 (Reply 54):
Not sure what exactly you want the airline to do for you? Maybe travel insurance would have been a good choice for you?
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 58):
You're seriously going to wait two days for a flight from ORD to DTW?

I ended up just cancelling the entire thing and taking a refund. The Marriott hotel I was supposed to stay at, however, was was not nice enough to give a refund even after I explained the situation.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting ChiSky16 (Reply 51):
I'm not sure what you want anyone to do for you? This is out of the airlines' or anyone else's control. An incident happened, and it affected everyone. Drive or take the Amtrak if getting to Detroit before Sunday is necessary in your case.

My wife's boss was supposed to fly ORD-MCI yesterday afternoon. He decided to leave the office early and start driving in his rental car, because of a family commitment on Saturday. As others have said, drive or take Amtrak. Since the airlines don't have the excess capacity that they had 10 years ago, a problem such as this, or a snowstorm that dumps 18-24 inches of snow causes disruptions that last for several days.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 62):
Of course the poor beleagured sould (oh the humanity) managed to live. Here's whats going to happen:
He will get one of those Hollywood lawyers like the ones that got Michael Jackson and OJ off.
Guest appearences on The View, Dr. Phil and for good measure Maury Povich to find out who was/his baby daddy.
Will be elevated to hero status in ISIS land. Maybe even get interviewed on "Bleet The Press," or "Deface The Nation"
Get his own reality show
Contestant on Dancing With The Stars/Big Brother House and Amazing Race
His pathetic life story will be made into a weepy touchy feely blockbuster by the big budget Hollyweird schlockmeisters

O.J. had the means to hire a team of talented legal counsel. The suspect is a federal contract employee living in an aparment compex in Naperville, so he probably can't afford to go out and hire a team of the best criminal defense lawyers in Chicago. My guess is that the suspect will wind up with a court-appointed lawyer. Now, he could have a public defender, or he might be able to use a fund to hire one good attorney, like Sam Adams, Sr., Sam Adams, Jr., or Ed Genson.

Would the press have interest in interviewing him. Of course, but I get the feeling that bail be very high or denied, because of his mental health, and his lawyer(s) will keep him away from the press.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 64):
I have to admit, part of me admires his thoroughness. The financial damage on WN and possibly other carriers is going to be noticeable. Is there not any redundancy built into these places? Anyone ever heard of a "Contingency Facility" over at the FAA?

Before yesterday, probably the only possibilities that the FAA thought about were either a lightning strike or a tornado.
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1125
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 64):
Anyone ever heard of a "Contingency Facility" over at the FAA?

From a cost-benefit perspective, I get the feeling the FAA does not have the funds to build and maintain an extra ARTCC to just leave sitting around.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5156
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting Thaiflyer (Reply 70):
Not all nut cases are terrorists. (almost all are not) Some people are seeing a terrorist involvement in almost every incident.
This is a incident but as all planes are manned by highly trained professionals the passengers where not in danger.
Inconvenient yes, Danger no.

But, many of the terrorist organizations goal is just to throw a monkey wrench into our transportation systems. All the financial losses, and resulting turmoil are enough. Meanwhile while our air system is crippled they could be hatching a devious destructive plot somewhere else.

Quoting United787 (Reply 81):

   Amazing how the NSA and other government agencies can spy on us and know what type of cat food my kitty is eating but an air traffic control center/tower is a sitting duck for a lunatic to literally bring much of our air space to a grinding halt.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 87):
O.J. had the means to hire a team of talented legal counsel. The suspect is a federal contract employee living in an aparment compex in Naperville, so he probably can't afford to go out and hire a team of the best criminal defense lawyers in Chicago. My guess is that the suspect will wind up with a court-appointed lawyer. Now, he could have a public defender, or he might be able to use a fund to hire one good attorney, like Sam Adams, Sr., Sam Adams, Jr., or Ed Genson.

TThere are plenty of moneyed extremist people with out their views that would embrace this nut and sponsor his defense. Some Hollywood types would get behind him if he claimed he was jipped out of a trophy when he was a kid or whatever. Welcome to the twisted topsy turvy media fed New Morality where miscreants such as this guy will get a spread in People Magazine and then his book deal etc...

Would the press have interest in interviewing him. Of course, but I get the feeling that bail be very high or denied, because of his mental health, and his lawyer(s) will keep him away from the press.

Our so called journalists would kill each other's mother's to get the interview with him. Need I say more?

And yes, we the airlines get a bad rap many times at the cost of the government agencies that are involved in air travel, such as the TSA, FAA etc. Though not the FAA's fault directly, the government hired and is paying this contractor.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 74):

Perhaps your use of the word "unacceptable" was not what you meant to convey. If it was then I assume you aren't a frequent traveler. It's all about flexibility.

What is wrong with the word unacceptable? If he has business, could be a single day meeting but lets say a wedding on Saturday, that takes place before Sunday - then a Sunday flight would be unacceptable. He would then cancel the whole trip or cancel the flight and find alternate means of travel. [looks like he canceled the trip]

Quoting krsw757 (Reply 85):
I think you're missing the point a well. So basically what you're saying is, every city that has a center facility should have a backup building just sitting empty in case of an extreme case like this?

No, but there should be plans to cover total loss of the facility. Fires, floods, train derailments wtih toxic chemicals, etc happen and there should be a plan to cover the loss of the facility.
Then someone can get up say we have plans: x hours of ground stop, x hours of 10K feet flights, x hours until the other ARTCCs are configured to cover the Chicago area at yy% of capacity, and it stays there until the facility is fixed.

With a modern network and dual feeds for all radars, etc it should not take days to re-route everything to a different building. There shouldn't be a single point of failure. I know FAA ATC and modern don't always go together.

Quoting Thaiflyer (Reply 70):

Not all nut cases are terrorists. (almost all are not) Some people are seeing a terrorist involvement in almost every incident.

The government seems to be the one that defines terrorism. Looks like many definitions of terrorist include explosives or trying to kill. If you count the gasoline as an accelerant instead of an explosive, this may not meet most definitions. The laws are very broad and they could charge him with terrorism if they want.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:31 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 89):
Our so called journalists would kill each other's mother's to get the interview with him. Need I say more?

Because the consumers of news (readers of newspapers, listeners to radio, viewers of TV news, etc) would like to know more than the rantings on his Facebook page. He said on his Facebook page, words to the effect, that people are right about government employees being lazy and stupid, incapable of being well educated. He also said that taking out the Aurora Center would do little to disrupt air traffic. I, for one, would like to know his reaction to the fact that all of the airspace in Chicago Center was closed for several hours, and that even 36 hours later, ORD and MDW are operating at about half of normal volume.

I assume that the suspect won't get bail, or that it will be far higher than he and his family and friends can raise, thus limiting his ability to communicate with the press. I doubt he will be talking to the press the way Rod Blagojevich and Drew Peterson did, while they were facing criminal charges.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 89):
And yes, we the airlines get a bad rap many times at the cost of the government agencies that are involved in air travel, such as the TSA, FAA etc. Though not the FAA's fault directly, the government hired and is paying this contractor.

I have a couple of friends who applied to be air traffic controllers in the 1980s. Back then, the FAA was very concerned about people who mightt "crack" under pressure, or would allow issues outside of work to affect how they handled air traffic.

My guess is that contractors, whose employees maintain and upgrade FAA equipment, probably weren't screened for emotional issues the way the FAA screens potential air traffic controller. Undoubtedly, that is going to change.
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting Acey (Reply 88):

No your right about that, but funny how they require each airline to have one....
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2128
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:30 am

I'm sure after this that Harris Corp. will have to have two person staffs at all times at all ATC facilities where they design and maintain equipment.
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 92):
Quoting B757capt (Reply 92):
No your right about that, but funny how they require each airline to have one....

Boy you aren't kidding there. I got a tour of our new facility and it is incredible. Plus there is one that is not even close to the airport. It is amazing that there is not some kind of fall back solution.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15470
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:01 pm

From news reports on Sunday morning, some ATC is back in business and there are long lines of people at the Chicago regional airports trying to get rebooked on restored flights. and it will takes weeks for something like full, normal service. Those reports said a new temp facility will be built at another location as the damage at the original location were severe. Perhaps they will put in a more secure location.

This serious incident brings up a very serious range of employee - employer issues. The heavier use of contractors in critical infrastructure, poor management and supervision, security weaknesses, lack of employment security, compensation, the difficulty to screening applicants and monitor employees to keep out those with personal and mental health problems that can lead to problems. Critical infrastructure like this ATC facility must take all reasonable or even extreme measures to prevent damage from bad weather, floods, fires and employee acts.

Meanwhile this will costs millions in taxpayer dollars to fix, millions in costs to airlines due to cancelled flights and to accommodate passengers and freight held up from this incident.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3270
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 31):

"FAA FACILITY FIRE UPDATE: ATF source says a disgruntled contractor was upset because he was being transferred to Hawaii. He went down to the transmission lines in the basement, wrapped them in rags and soaked the rags in gasoline."

Hang on a minute, winter is coming to Chicago, the guy is told he is being transfered to Hawaii, he goes on a rampage, tries to cut his own throat, and fails.....not guilty by reason of insanity is a hard thing to get on right now, but throw this case in front of a Chicago jury in the middle of winter and he may just get it on.

Anyways, I feel for the travelers and airline employees who are taking the brunt of this, is does make me wonder if some type of back up system shouldn't be in place.

Did he cut the only feeds coming out of the radar system ? I would have to think a modern computer system would not find the job of collecting radar info and presenting it in the correct manner a hard task, with the right network you could then run that airspace from anywhere, or am I missing something ?
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:14 pm

Yeah sounds like damage is severe at the center. Radar feeds destroyed, communications equipment, even issues with the main host or ERAM computers. Estimates of repair time are now in the weeks. As of now they are working on opening Chicago center sectors at adjacent facilities such as Indy center, Cleveland, Kansas City etc etc. As of now employees are being sent to other facilities on a volunteer basis only.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5022
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:51 pm

It looks like they finally have some high altitude sectors open and have reinstated normal departure and arrival routes to a limited extent.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8354
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: ORD And MDW Ground Stop Due To ATC Fire

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 48):
A single tower out of service shouldn't cause this much disruption to air travel. This very much points out vulnerabilities. Probably 3 or 4 key towers across the country could take out the whole system.

LOL I like that you don't have any clue what you're even talking about...

Quoting ADent (Reply 90):
No, but there should be plans to cover total loss of the facility.
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 94):
It is amazing that there is not some kind of fall back solution.

What are you guys talking about? There are fallbacks. I'm not sure why so many people seem to think the system was totally unprepared for this? There are absolutely plans and contingencies in place for events like this, such as adjacent facilities taking over airspace, but they're just that: contingencies, backups. Backups don't work as efficiently as "primary systems," and hence there are delays.

You can rabble rabble rabble all you want, but we live in real life, and things don't work 100% all day every day in real life, and that goes for every industry on the planet.

And seriously, the guy was pissed he was leaving Aurura and going to HAWAII?!  

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos