Delay Chaos:Ultra Orthodox Won't Sit Next To Women

max999 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:39 pm

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4574844,00.html

Quote:
Haredim refuse to sit next to women on El Al flight, causing '11-hour-nightmare'

El Al passengers on New York-Israel flight claim Haredi men refused to sit next to women, even offering secular passengers money to switch seats, delaying flight's departure.

Passengers aboard an El Al flight from New York's JFK airport to Israel claim that hundreds of ultra-Orthodox passengers demanded that they trade places with them before takeoff, saying they cannot sit next to women.

[Edited 2014-09-26 06:44:48]

BestWestern · Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:50 pm

Someone needs to realise that it is now 2014, and they live in the modern world.

SCQ83 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:01 pm

They should fly in Saudia.. they would have felt at home!

karadion · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:02 pm

They could have always ordered a charter flight? Mindboggling!

alfa164 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
They should fly in Saudia.. they would have felt at home!

It only shows that radicals of any religion or nationalistic point of view share the same extreme views - and that airlines, like every other form of public entities, need to have rules to assure order.

"Sit in your designated seat or get off the plane" would be a good start.

Mir · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:05 pm

One would think that El Al would have some sort of policy for this. Can't be the first time this sort of thing has presented itself.

-Mir

NYC777 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:13 pm

Idiots, they should have been thrown off the plane. Closed minded dumbasses is what they are.

bennett123 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:16 pm

This incident sounds pre planned.

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 4):
"Sit in your designated seat or get off the plane" would be a good start.

Tend to agree, alfa164.......

Can anyone tell us WHY ultra-orthodox Jewish men reckon that they cannot sit next to women? Seems like out-and-out discrimination to me?

Mind you - if I'd been on that aeroplane, I'd probably have made damn sure that I wasn't sitting next to any of THEM.........

802flyguy · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:24 pm

An F/A friend has told me of being asked if she is "clean" by ultra Orthodox passengers. "Yes, I washed my hands very carefully" is her usual reply.

LAXintl · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:25 pm

Certainly not the first time this has happended.

I personally know of a few similar events over the years. Normally its not an issue, and quite easy to reseat passengers and something the ground staff even keeps an eye out for, but its sounds like the volume of haredi travelers on this flight made it a problem.

RedChili · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:33 pm

As usual, many of my fellow a.netters are quick to judge people that they don't understand, based on a single news article.

Quoting max999 (Thread starter):
Passengers aboard an El Al flight from New York's JFK airport to Israel claim that hundreds of ultra-Orthodox passengers demanded that they trade places with them before takeoff,

Oh yeah? So, there were like 300-400 ultra-Orthodox passengers that ended up being seated next to a woman on that flight? Somehow, the maths don't add up.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
One would think that El Al would have some sort of policy for this. Can't be the first time this sort of thing has presented itself.

Exactly what I was thinking. Something went terribly wrong this time.

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
Something went terribly wrong this time.

Have to say that, in my opinion, RedChili, the only thing that was 'terribly wrong' was the blatant sexual discrimination displayed by those 'twisted' religious creeps?

RJNUT · Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:49 pm

Rosh Hoshana created the logjam of haredim this day

AeroWesty · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:02 pm

Quoting max999 (Thread starter):
El Al passengers on New York-Israel flight claim Haredi men refused to sit next to women, even offering secular passengers money to switch seats,

Knowing that Haredi policy is to non-vaccinate, I would have happily taken the money and moved to a different seat, if I'd been offered hard cash, and was female. Silly people, always take the cash!

max999 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
Oh yeah? So, there were like 300-400 ultra-Orthodox passengers that ended up being seated next to a woman on that flight? Somehow, the maths don't add up.

Are you asking me? I quoted that sentence from the article.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
As usual, many of my fellow a.netters are quick to judge people that they don't understand, based on a single news article.

People judge because sex discrimination is behavior that's not tolerated by the vast majority of people in western countries. Lots of other religions have changed and adapted to modern times (e.g. like allowing women in the priesthood).

silentbob · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Silly people, always take the cash!

After they increase the offer by at least 50%

BEG2IAH · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:15 pm

They can be reseated and this happens all the time, but I have a bigger issue with the following: 1) their persistence in trying to convert fellow passengers to Judaism and 2) they do not have a particular appreciation of basic hygiene. You cannot reseat smells and being on an 11-hour flight would really be bad. All I can say is: lucky women! They will not experience this nightmare.

packcheer · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:18 pm

Is there anyone here who can speak to the actual values that are a part of their religion?

What may look blatantly like discrimination to us may not be in their society.

Remember, there was once a time in some western societies when women and men could not openly hold a conversation, much less be in contact with one another in public.

RedChili · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 12):
Have to say that, in my opinion, RedChili, the only thing that was 'terribly wrong' was the blatant sexual discrimination displayed by those 'twisted' religious creeps?

In order to call something "sexual discrimination," it must be related to human rights. Sitting next to David Abramovich on a flight is definitely NOT a human right. Therefore, your accusation of "sexual discrimination" is totally wrong.

Quoting max999 (Reply 15):
Are you asking me? I quoted that sentence from the article.

I know. I quoted that part because it is a clear example that this article isn't "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

Quoting max999 (Reply 15):
People judge because sex discrimination is behavior that's not tolerated by the vast majority of people in western countries.

See above. No woman can claim that "I have the right to sit next to passenger X," so if passenger X wants to move to another seat, there's no way she can claim that it's "sexual discrimination."

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 19):
Therefore, your accusation of "sexual discrimination" is totally wrong.

As I read the press reports, RedChili, the blokes concerned asked (pretty well 'insisted') that the women moved so that they (the blokes) didn't have to sit next to them (i.e. women)? Otherwise, they would stop the aeroplane from taking off?

Surely that is blatant sexual discrimination? 'Attempted' discrimination anyway - thankfully it didn't work out as they'd hoped.

RedChili · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting packcheer (Reply 18):
Is there anyone here who can speak to the actual values that are a part of their religion?

What may look blatantly like discrimination to us may not be in their society.

The way I understand it, it's because they want to avoid sexual temptations as much as possible, so that they instead will be able to focus on God. That's why most haredim don't watch TV, don't want to hear women sing, and don't want to touch women (except if they're close family, of course).

Trying to "force" a haredi to sit next to a strange woman, would be akin to trying to force a Buddhist vegetarian monk to eat meat. Both of them believe that their religion discourages such a practice.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
1) their persistence in trying to convert fellow passengers to Judaism

They're not trying to convert the fellow passengers, but they want the freedom themselves to follow their own interpretation of Judaism.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
2) they do not have a particular appreciation of basic hygiene.

It's got nothing to do with hygiene.

sw733 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting silentbob (Reply 16):
After they increase the offer by at least 50%

It's like when they offer you a voucher to take the later flight - "If they offer $300, wait ten minutes and they'll offer $500!"

N415XJ · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:35 pm

I don't think that it's sexual discrimination, it's just annoying. If I was the Captian I'd tell them all to either sit in their assigned seat or get off my airplane. And I'm not an Orthodox Jew so I guess I wouldn't know, but does God REALLY care THAT much if you sit next to a woman? Doesn't He have bigger things to worry about?

ytz · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:43 pm

Article raises more questions than answers. Why did the Haredim not identify their concerns to the counter staff or gate staff so that approrpriate changes could have been made priort to boarding? And following the chaos on the aircraft while boarding, why did the airline simply not stop boarding and attempt to replan seating at the gate?

And, why does the airline not have a policy for dealing with disruptive passengers?

Threaten to ban these pax from El Al and watch how quickly their behaviour changes. They dread the thought of flying any other airline, because no other airline would tolerate anything close to this kind of disruptive behaviour.

Finally, given the unique nature of El Al, why isn't there a way for El Al to identify such passenger desires (such as not sitting next to a woman). This way, they could reserve a certain section of the airplane for Haredim pax.

RedChili · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 20):
As I read the press reports, RedChili, the blokes concerned asked (pretty well 'insisted') that the women moved so that they (the blokes) didn't have to sit next to them (i.e. women)? Otherwise, they would stop the aeroplane from taking off?

Surely that is blatant sexual discrimination?

In my opinion, no, it's not sexual discrimination, because nobody can claim that they have a human right to sit next to passenger X.

That's not to say that some of them possibly did this in a very clumsy way. My guess is that some of them handled it in a good way, while others possibly expressed themselves in a way that could be percieved as being discriminatory.

You should also be aware that among Jews there's a lot of tension between some in the religious community and some of the most secular people, and people make mistakes on both sides of the fence. My impression is that this newspaper, Yediot Ahronot, is an anti-religious newspaper with often one-sided criticism.

TVNWZ · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:49 pm

My personal beliefs are the opposite: I want to sit next to very attractive women. Hope the airline can accomodate me!

RedChili · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:50 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 23):
And I'm not an Orthodox Jew so I guess I wouldn't know, but does God REALLY care THAT much if you sit next to a woman? Doesn't He have bigger things to worry about?

That depends on your religious views, of course, but if you take a look at the attention to detail in the Law of Moses, and even more so in the Talmud, you'll soon realize that religious Jews believe that God cares about the small details.

Quoting ytz (Reply 24):
Threaten to ban these pax from El Al and watch how quickly their behaviour changes. They dread the thought of flying any other airline, because no other airline would tolerate anything close to this kind of disruptive behaviour.

Most of my flights into and out of TLV have been on LH, LX and KL, and I've seen plenty of haredim on all those airlines. None of them looked like they dreaded flying on that particular airline.

mham001 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:51 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
You cannot reseat smells and being on an 11-hour flight would really be bad. All I can say is: lucky women! They will not experience this nightmare.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
It's got nothing to do with hygiene.

Yes, it has everything to do with hygiene. The women were fortunate they did not have to endure 11 hours of that.

Quoting packcheer (Reply 18):
Remember, there was once a time in some western societies when women and men could not openly hold a conversation, much less be in contact with one another in public.

That's right, but we passed the 7th century some time ago.

Aesma · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 9):
An F/A friend has told me of being asked if she is "clean" by ultra Orthodox passengers. "Yes, I washed my hands very carefully" is her usual reply.

What are they asking, in plain English from the 21st century ?

Quoting packcheer (Reply 18):
Remember, there was once a time in some western societies

That's exactly our point. There was a time when people were less civilized than today, and we shouldn't go back to that time.

777way · Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:58 pm

Sitting next to a woman can result in wrong thoughts and feelings related to simply scent and vibes let alone appearence and dress, they want to avoid that.

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
because nobody can claim that they have a human right to sit next to passenger X.

That's probably the key issue, RedChili. As far as I can tell, they weren't claiming a 'human right' not to have to sit next to a given passenger; they were claiming a 'right' not to have to sit next to a woman?

Those guys would be wise not to visit Australia. The relevant law hasn't been exhaustively tested - but I suspect that if they tried anything similar here, they might find themselves hauled off the aeroplane and put into a cell for the duration?

BEG2IAH · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
They're not trying to convert the fellow passengers, but they want the freedom themselves to follow their own interpretation of Judaism.

When they talk to you and persistently ask you if you would consider abandoning your own religion and accept theirs, I would not call that "freedom to follow their interpretation of Judaism."

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
It's got nothing to do with hygiene.

What does it have to do with?

LH707330 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
The way I understand it, it's because they want to avoid sexual temptations as much as possible, so that they instead will be able to focus on God. That's why most haredim don't watch TV, don't want to hear women sing, and don't want to touch women (except if they're close family, of course).

Trying to "force" a haredi to sit next to a strange woman, would be akin to trying to force a Buddhist vegetarian monk to eat meat. Both of them believe that their religion discourages such a practice.

Nobody is forcing the haredi to sit next to women, they forced themselves into that position by booking the seats they did. Unless there was a "men-only" section that they booked and didn't get, they could have a reasonable expectation (50/50) of being seated next to a woman, and should have planned accordingly (charter, book their own seat block, etc.). Not doing that is poor planning and they should live with the consequences. For your analogy to make sense, it would be like the Buddhist monk walking into a steakhouse and complaining that there's only meat.

ytz · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 27):
Most of my flights into and out of TLV have been on LH, LX and KL, and I've seen plenty of haredim on all those airlines. None of them looked like they dreaded flying on that particular airline.

Indeed. But they wouldn't easily get away the behaviour displayed on this flight. I'm talking about the folks on this flight. You think they'd even entertain a non-El Al option, knowing that they might get booted if they refused to sit next to a woman?

Quoting 777way (Reply 30):
Sitting next to a woman can result in wrong thoughts and feelings related to simply scent and vibes let alone appearence and dress, they want to avoid that.

There's no business that is obliged to accomodate one's self-perceived lack of self-control. You are responsible for controlling your own thoughts.

par13del · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
Trying to "force" a haredi to sit next to a strange woman, would be akin to trying to force a Buddhist vegetarian monk to eat meat. Both of them believe that their religion discourages such a practice.

So let's run with that, how do these type passengers book on the airline web site, under special considerations what can they enter that is not regarded as discrimination? How can the airline determine how many such pax are onboard if they do not request Religion as a booking option?

In my opinion we have two issues here, one is a complete failure if the airline to allow such a disruption to take such a long time to resolve, secondly, how does the airline especially El Al cater to this type of travel?

Unfortunately, we are looking at it as a minor issue if one or two pax are travelling, but as this was a special occasion, adjustments should have been made. A business person delayed for such a long time would be within their rights to sue the airline.

FlyingSicilian · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
What are they asking, in plain English from the 21st century ?

I believe that is code for the woman menstruating but someone correct me if I am wrong.

alfa164 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 19):
No woman can claim that "I have the right to sit next to passenger X," so if passenger X wants to move to another seat, there's no way she can claim that it's "sexual discrimination."

And each passerner has the right to sit in his or her seat, as originally assigned. There fanatics should not be able to make the rules themselves; the airline assigns seats. It is not their role.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
In my opinion, no, it's not sexual discrimination, because nobody can claim that they have a human right to sit next to passenger X.

But they do have a right to sit in the seat they chose, or were assigned.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 21):
The way I understand it, it's because they want to avoid sexual temptations as much as possible, so that they instead will be able to focus on God.

Based on the photos of them, I don't think they need to worry about anyone wanting to tempt them...

[Edited 2014-09-26 09:40:05]

Kaiarahi · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):
Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 9):
An F/A friend has told me of being asked if she is "clean" by ultra Orthodox passengers. "Yes, I washed my hands very carefully" is her usual reply.

What are they asking, in plain English from the 21st century ?

Whether she's menstruating, in which case they won't touch anything she's handled.

difrano789 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:31 pm

Set religion apart, is not a federal offense to disrupt a flight in the US? If the passengers don't follow F/A or pilots orders they can call law enforcement and take the disruptive passengers away period. The flight was delayed and they weren't following crew orders so this is a law offense and they should have been removed from flight and arrested. I don't believe that because you are a religious extremist you can be above the law!

Now talking about religion, if i create the: "Church of I must fly in an empty row" every time i can disrupt a flight and create chaos because i don't want anybody seated on my sides, so they must follow my request because I am a religious extremist....

If they want they can get together and create an airline that only sale seats to male but if they fly with rest of the world they must follow the world rules...

zckls04 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 19):
In order to call something "sexual discrimination," it must be related to human rights

MOST CERTAINLY NOT.

Flying is not a human right. But if I started a men-only airline, that would be sexual discrimination. Similarly if I started a whites-only airline it would be racial discrimination.

It wasn't sexual discrimination in this case- I agree with that. Discrimination has to mean that one group of people were treated differently from another, which requires a definitive action towards those people (or a lack of action where one is expected). In this instance that was not the case, since there was no action or lack of action which was directed at the women- it was purely about the wishes of the male passengers to decide where they sat.

That doesn't make it any less stone aged, stupid, backward and contemptible, but technically it isn't discrimination. Reading that back I don't think I've explained it very well, but you get the gist hopefully.

My problem isn't really with any of that though- my issue is that if you happen to be a religious lunatic you need to mention it at check-in. Why wait until you get on the plane?

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 30):
Sitting next to a woman can result in wrong thoughts

Can't help feeling that that is the 'nub' of the problem we're all discussing.

We're all human beings, not animals. We're accustomed to 'restraining' ourselves.

777way, does all this 'separation' nonsense boil down to the fact that some passengers (on current evidence, Muslim ones) would not be able to restrain themselves if seated next to a woman, and would proceed to rape her?

Couldn't possibly happen - the cabin crew/passengers would 'prevent' any such thing.

As to 'wrong thoughts,' I guess that all of us (heteros, anyway) have had our share of those!

But it's not some sort of 'industry-threatening' problem..............99 times out of 100, we've probably all just gone back to reading the brochures or the newspapers......

The 100th. cases, of course, were the interesting ones.......... Wink

[Edited 2014-09-26 09:58:26]

max999 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 40):

It wasn't sexual discrimination in this case- I agree with that. Discrimination has to mean that one group of people were treated differently from another, which requires a definitive action towards those people (or a lack of action where one is expected). In this instance that was not the case, since there was no action or lack of action which was directed at the women- it was purely about the wishes of the male passengers to decide where they sat.

Maybe it's not technically sex discrimination, but it certainly feels that way to the person on the receiving end. That's because the ultra-orthodox man's attempt to freely exercise his religion is impinging on another person. From the article, the woman was quoted as saying her assigned seat is next to her husband. She must have felt that just because she's female, she was unfairly being asked to move when she does not want to.

Ammad · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 26):
My personal beliefs are the opposite: I want to sit next to very attractive women. Hope the airline can accomodate me!

Same situation, flight will be delay again as she don't want to sit.

par13del · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 41):
Quoting 777way (Reply 30):
Sitting next to a woman can result in wrong thoughts

Can't help feeling that that is the 'nub' of the problem we're all discussing.

So I guess we now know why Gays / Lesbians cannot play sports openly...they have to share the locker rooms

Revo1059 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:57 pm

Unreal. They should have been pulled off the plane. You wanted specific seating because of your religion, then buy the seats next to you. This was way beyond any reasonable expectation of the airline to accommodate.

seat1a · Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:00 pm

Perhaps they'd be happier on United's All Male Executive Red Carpet Caravelle flights form the 1950s and 1960s.

citationjet · Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 38):
Whether she's menstruating, in which case they won't touch anything she's handled.

Easy solution then, sit them next to any woman over 60. Problem solved...

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 26):
My personal beliefs are the opposite: I want to sit next to very attractive women. Hope the airline can accomodate me!

I just remembered, my religion requires that I sit next to a beautiful woman on every flight. Hopefully the airline can accomodate me.

NAV30 · Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 44):
So I guess we now know why Gays / Lesbians cannot play sports openly...

Honestly don't know enough about 'Gays/Lesbians' to further contribute to the discussion, par13del - without further information.. Honestly don't know any - therefore I can't understand your comment?

[Edited 2014-09-26 10:19:24]

luckyone · Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 8):
Can anyone tell us WHY ultra-orthodox Jewish men reckon that they cannot sit next to women? Seems like out-and-out discrimination to me?

See below. Judaism and Islam are based on a lot of the same principles (not surprising, they're both Abrahamic religions that developed in the same part of the world from similar cultures).

Quoting 777way (Reply 30):
Sitting next to a woman can result in wrong thoughts and feelings related to simply scent and vibes let alone appearence and dress, they want to avoid that.

Aside from the fact that I find that a rather infantile approach, it's also odd logic from (not necessarily you) a group that considers homosexuality a (sinful) choice, yet the mere sight of a female can turn a man into an uncontrollable barbarian.

Quoting max999 (Reply 42):
Maybe it's not technically sex discrimination, but it certainly feels that way to the person on the receiving end. That's because the ultra-orthodox man's attempt to freely exercise his religion is impinging on another person. From the article, the woman was quoted as saying her assigned seat is next to her husband. She must have felt that just because she's female, she was unfairly being asked to move when she does not want to.

I think it's definitely sexism to say the last. To imply that a man does not have self control or responsibility is to imply that the woman is somehow responsible for that, and in effect comes across as blaming her.

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