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TWA772LR
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LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:23 am

I read on this site that LUX used to be a big transit hub in the 1970s. Why did that change? FRA, CDG, and LHR have always been big and LUX coexisted well with those cities, until recently. Now it has solely EU routes and a couple routes to northern Africa. And this is an airport that used to see all kinds of airlines like Bahama Airlines, or what ever it was called.

The point is, what doesn't LUX have any long haul, barring Cargolux? Surely Luxair could support token service to at least JFK or YUL or YYZ. Or even United having 757 service from EWR, that seems like something that would work, if not 3-4x weekly then, seasonal.
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Viscount724
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Surely Luxair could support token service to at least JFK or YUL or YYZ. Or even United having 757 service from EWR, that seems like something that would work, if not 3-4x weekly then, seasonal.

Too small an O&D market in my opinion, and LUX would never be able to compete with other connecting hubs.

LUX was the original longhaul low-cost transatlantic gateway in the 1950/60s/70s since they had no longhaul carrier of their own to protect and when Luxair began service it wasn't an IATA member. In those days virtually all international fares were agreed by the IATA carriers and had to be approved by governments, many of which would only approve fares agreed through IATA.

With Luxembourg not a party to any of that, Loftleidir, the predecessor of Icelandair, used LUX as their major European gateway and was able to offer U.S.-LUX fares much lower than the IATA fares to the rest of Europe. Backpackers and students etc. flew Loftleidir to LUX and then took the train or bus to wherever they were going, at lower cost than flying all the way on other carriers.

LUX gradually lost that advantage as deregulation began to take hold and carriers were able to compete more on price to other points in Europe than when fares were established through the IATA mechanism.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):

What were their longhaul destinations from there at that time?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
Viscount724
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 2):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):


What were their longhaul destinations from there at that time?

Only JFK with a stop at KEF except towards the end when they also served ORD.


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lesfalls
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:15 am

But how cheap was it at the time?
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zkeoj
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Loftleidir, the predecessor of Icelandair,
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Only JFK with a stop at KEF except towards the end when they also served ORD.

Actually, Icelandair did the same for a while, and had more destinations. For example, I did LUX-KEF-BWI in 1988. They had an agreement with PI for ongoing flights, and had a bus service from major German cities to LUX. I had a fare CGN-MCO, and could take that bus from Cologne main station to LUX, then LUX-KEF-BWI on FI, and finally BWI-MCO on PI. I remember that late evening flight out of BWI very well. We could see lightning and thunderstorms all around the airport, and they still operated. We had quite a bit of turbulences - nothing heavy, but constant. After the loooong journey I was very tired, and the seat on the B737 next to me was empty, so I had my camera bag on it. I fell asleep and when I woke up I saw that the FA had buckled my camera bag up - such a nice gesture. She smiled at me when she walked by later.
And it was dead cheap   And - best of all - those were my only ever flights on a DC8! Here is "my" DC8 at KEF: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000054242.html

Great times  

Cheers
micha

[Edited 2014-09-27 22:39:03]
 
PanHAM
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:03 am

Not to forget JNB with Trek Airways and NAS with International Air Bahama.

LUX was deregulated long before deregulation became fashionable. In the peak years there were 4 or 5 stretch eights on the tarmac in LUX simultaneously. Now backpackers can fly from anywhere to everywhere at cheap prices which are probably cheaper today than in the 60s and 70s.
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SCQ83
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:06 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Not to forget JNB with Trek Airways and NAS with International Air Bahama.

Which was the logic of LUX-NAS? Bahamas is not a backpackers' destination.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:20 am

I can't tell you what the logic was with something that is 40 years ago. But NAS is close to MIA and Air bahamas probably connected to various FL destinations
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Baexecutive
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:39 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 7):

Possibly the fact that both are considered financial centres for private banking, Luxembourg is the worlds second largest investment fund centre after the US & after tourism, banking is the Bahamas next most important industry.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:47 am

You may mix that up with the Cayman Islands. IAB was a short period of time in the 70s and certainly not something Banlkers relayed on and vv, traffic wise. NAS served as a destination close by the US, that is the best explanation.
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mjoelnir
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:50 am

The original destinations with Loftleiðir from LUX were New York, Chicago and Detroit via KEF.

The Bahamas connection came when Loftleiðir bought Air Bahamas in 1969.

[Edited 2014-09-28 02:51:36]

[Edited 2014-09-28 02:53:42]
 
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RWA380
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:42 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Only JFK with a stop at KEF except towards the end when they also served ORD

FI served JFK n/s on the DC-8s, otherwise services to LUX on FI were through KEF. Backpacking through Europe was the thing to do in the 70s & 80s, now the average college student can't afford to go to school let alone a trip to Europe. It is indeed the things that you never try in life, that one regrets when you start getting older.
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SAAB900
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:14 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Surely Luxair could support token service to at least JFK

IIRC CityBird tried a long haul service to New York(I think?) quite a few years back with B767's but I don't think it was a success as it didn't last very long,I don't even think it lasted a full summer season!

Dave(SAAB900).
 
mjoelnir
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:15 am

Loftleiðir (Icelandic Airlines) LL and Flugfelag Islands (Icelandair) FI merged in 1973 as Flugleiðir (Icelandair) FI.

Icelandair used the Luxembourg-Findel Airport for quite a long time stopping the flights I think around the year 2000.
Now FI does daily flights to FRA, AMS and CDG from KEF and having added BRU there would be little left for LUX.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:40 am

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 9):
Possibly the fact that both are considered financial centres for private banking, Luxembourg is the worlds second largest investment fund centre after the US & after tourism, banking is the Bahamas next most important industry.

Applying 21st Century logic to the aviation world prevalent in the late 1960 throughout of the middle of the 70s doesn't work.

Up to the time of rapid political integration and the consolidation of the EU single market, open sky treaties and global events such as the end of apartheid, German Unification and the collapse of the Warsaw pack the landscape in which scheduled airlines (Almost all state owned) was very different and regulated beyond belief today - They were very effective cartels with extensive pooling and fare fixings that would be illegal today.

Luxembourg's position in central Europe combined with classical left of centre political parties the CSV and LSAP were pretty open to free market trade much earlier than the neighbours

The CSV opened the aviation market to just about any one at the time and Luxair and Lofteider developed close partnerships over the atlantic via Keflavik specifically targeting cost sensitive markets (Loftleider served the UK market directly to Glasgow and Heathrow at the same time) of Europe.

At the time they were competing more with a the supplemental/ABC and travel club markets than the national carriers.
Offering more regular schedules (if you could get to Luxembourg/Heathrow or Glasgow !) than those charters !

However as the markets changed through later 70s and beyond these advantages wained for the most part.

That said Loftleider (Icelandair) continue to operate a significant hub via KEF and from many more European cities today (Just not Luxembourg.

The mention of apartheid is also important as for many years South African were heavily restricted on when they were able to fly through sanctions.

Again the independence of Luxembourg allowed some effective busting to take place using Luxavia 707s and later South African 747SPs masquerading as Luxair planes


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In addition to those Aeroflot were also quite a common sight back in the day operating spurious cargo flights often collecting luxury goods for the just and trustworthy party elite !


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LJ
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 14):
Now FI does daily flights to FRA, AMS and CDG from KEF and having added BRU there would be little left for LUX.

FI is flying many destination only in the Summer schedule only (e.g. BRU, ZRH or HAM). Morover, they've expanded at some European destinations quite substantially. AMS is nowadays 15-16 weekly 757 in Summer ( goes back to daily in Winter). You see the same for other European destinations, where FI increases its flights when the demand is there (in Summer North America - Europe) making it difficult for charter airlines and put pressure on yield. It will therefore be interesting how they'll do when we start seeing LCC transatlantic flights. As a consolation for LUX, they have Cargolux and other freighter airlines, which still has a considerable long haul cargo network.

BTW didn't China Airlines at one point fly to LUX as well with their 747SPs (or was this cargo only)? I recall LUX was their gateway as well prior to AMS (or was it FRA) coming online.

As fpr Luxair. With LH being a shareholder I doubt you'll see any long haul from Luxair. LH won't be happy if they do (and being a minority shareholder doesn't give you a blocking voting power, but you do get some power).
 
MHG
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 16):
As fpr Luxair. With LH being a shareholder I doubt you'll see any long haul from Luxair. LH won't be happy if they do (and being a minority shareholder doesn't give you a blocking voting power, but you do get some power).

Very true indeed.

The majority of longhaul travel is going via FRA and to a lesser degree via MUC and CPH (SK is going to upgrade LUX-CPH from CR9 to 319 soon ...) .
And for those not connected to Star Alliance there´s still AF via CDG and BA via LHR ...

That does not really leave much for longhaul non-stops nowadays - especially considering that LUX´s airport/handling fees/charges are rather on the expensive side compared to other european airports ...
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lesfalls
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15):

But you saying that luxair started longhaul but only to south africa ?
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rutankrd
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 18):
But you saying that luxair started long haul but only to south africa

Pretty much so , however in reality they were in-fact South African operations !
 
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lesfalls
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 19):

But im guessing that the yields werent high at all.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 20):
But im guessing that the yields werent high at all.

These were sanction busting operations first and foremost.

Modern day yield management tools was hardly priority !

There were sizeable amounts of illicit cargo loaded on those flights at the time.
 
LJ
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 18):
But you saying that luxair started longhaul but only to south africa ?

That's a fact. Luxair hasn't flown to any other long haul destination other than JNB.

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 20):
But im guessing that the yields werent high at all.

There wasn't so much competition to South Africa as you currently have and fares to South Africa weren't low (the Luxair flight wasn't attracting the same group op passengers as the Loftleidir flights). Moreover they did have an extensive feeder operation at the time.
 
taichen
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
That's a fact. Luxair hasn't flown to any other long haul destination other than JNB.

Luxair did serve New York from Luxembourg in 1999, after Icelandair quit . It was a very short lived adventure, though.

http://airline-memorabilia.blogspot....r-aeroport-de-luxembourg-1999.html
 
Viscount724
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:55 am

Quoting taichen (Reply 23):
Quoting LJ (Reply 22):
That's a fact. Luxair hasn't flown to any other long haul destination other than JNB.

Luxair did serve New York from Luxembourg in 1999, after Icelandair quit . It was a very short lived adventure, though.

http://airline-memorabilia.blogspot....r-aeroport-de-luxembourg-1999.html

It was to EWR using a 763 wet-leased from defunct Belgian carrier CityBird. The wet-lease agreement refers to 767-200ER in one place but that's a typo. It was a -300ER, the only 767 model CityBird operated.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:21 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 7):
Which was the logic of LUX-NAS? Bahamas is not a backpackers' destination.

No doubt trying to emulate the relative success BA's LGW-NAS-GCM flight done with a DC-10.

If I recall correctly Air Bahamas flew a leased Being 707.
 
rutankrd
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 25):
No doubt trying to emulate the relative success BA's LGW-NAS-GCM flight done with a DC-10.

The Air Bahamas services pre dated BA DC-10s by at least 20 years - Back in the day it would have been a 707 or multi stop VC10 of BOAC/ Cunard !

This is the 707


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lesfalls
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting taichen (Reply 23):
Luxair did serve New York from Luxembourg in 1999, after Icelandair quit . It was a very short lived adventure, though

Just wondering what the yields were on that flight?I had no idea Luxair flew to the us before.
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TWA772LR
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 27):
Quoting taichen (Reply 23):
Luxair did serve New York from Luxembourg in 1999, after Icelandair quit . It was a very short lived adventure, though

Just wondering what the yields were on that flight?I had no idea Luxair flew to the us before.

What aircraft did they fly on this route? Are there any pics?
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Viscount724
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 28):
Quoting lesfalls (Reply 27):
Quoting taichen (Reply 23):
Luxair did serve New York from Luxembourg in 1999, after Icelandair quit . It was a very short lived adventure, though

Just wondering what the yields were on that flight?I had no idea Luxair flew to the us before.

What aircraft did they fly on this route? Are there any pics?

It's already been discussed. See Reply 24.
 
Natflyer
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RE: LUX And Long Haul, What Happened?

Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 26):

The DC-8-63 in the pictures is actually the same airframe, N8630 in different liveries. IAB used a DC-8-55 for a short while prior to the -63.
N8630 was later registered as TF-FLE.

[Edited 2014-09-29 20:41:19]

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