Cory6188
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DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:56 pm

As a pretty frequent flier on DL for work travel, predominantly domestically but at least periodically internationally, one of the things that has frequently surprised me is how many stations have mainline DL employees, at least above wing, even in smaller stations in the US. I know UA has gotten a fair amount of flak since the merger for continuing to outsource its stations, but it seems like DL hasn't jumped on to this bandwagon. From a traveler perspective, it's been great -- the level of knowledge and ability of a long-term, mainline employee is light years beyond low-wage, high-turnover, outsourced staff.

I know XNA is outsourced, which doesn't surprise me given that it only gets one mainline RON. However, I've been surprised at stations like TYS and BNA, where the flight mix is predominantly in favor of regional relative to mainline, or even just smaller stations like TUS with only a few flights per day, that all have mainline staff. I was in STT a few months ago, and the gate staff had DL uniforms, but I was pretty sure that they were all working for the local ground handler, just wearing the DL uniform.

As compared to AA, UA, former US, etc., does DL have a greater number of in-sourced stations? And, if it is higher than competitors, what is DL's rationale for doing so (if there is one just beyond good customer service)?
 
FURUREFA
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:10 pm

A big reason is the Ready Reserve program, whereby employees work up to 1200 hours a year, don't receive benefits other than pass travel, and are paid a set, entry-level wage. Some employees like the low hours and flexibility and remain Ready Reserves for a while, others eventually move up to benefitted positions. But the program does provide a cheap form of labor that is often even cheaper than contractors, all the while maintaining oversight and quality control.
 
OOer
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 1):
But the program does provide a cheap form of labor that is often even cheaper than contractors, all the while maintaining oversight and quality control.

Bingo!

Since Delta agents are non-union, Delta can get away with having a substantial number of people on this ready reserve system. They also have this program at the major hubs. Why outsource to another company when you can pay your own people even less?

Quoting Cory6188 (Thread starter):
I've been surprised at stations like TYS and BNA, where the flight mix is predominantly in favor of regional relative to mainline

Actually, BNA isn't that small. BNA even has Delta maintenance. BNA to ATL & DTW is all mainline flights, that's 15 flights a day.
 
Cory6188
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 2):
Since Delta agents are non-union, Delta can get away with having a substantial number of people on this ready reserve system. They also have this program at the major hubs. Why outsource to another company when you can pay your own people even less?

That's a good point, to both you and FURUREFA -- obviously, from a pax perspective, it's not readily apparent (...no pun intended) on who the regular FT employees are versus Ready Reserve. If DL can make it work, more power to them (although it's probably not wonderful from an employee perspective).

Quoting OOer (Reply 2):
Actually, BNA isn't that small. BNA even has Delta maintenance. BNA to ATL & DTW is all mainline flights, that's 15 flights a day.

Hmmm, definitely true on ATL and DTW (they also have 1x day LAX mainline as well), and I didn't know they had DL TechOps at BNA. Flying back and forth from LGA, I'm clearly biased towards being used to taking CR7s/CR9s back and forth.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:33 pm

One other thing that a lot of folks forget is that NW was pretty heavily insourced at the time of the merger. Any station with more than 50 weekly mainline flights was handled by mainline employees. That doesn't sound like a level that a lot of stations would have, but because of all the DC-9s and a relative shortage of large regional jets, there were a lot of small stations that met the threshold. BNA is one of the stations that was in this situation, with mainline all day long to DTW and a fair amount of mainline to MEM.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
OOer
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
That's a good point, to both you and FURUREFA -- obviously, from a pax perspective, it's not readily apparent (...no pun intended) on who the regular FT employees are versus Ready Reserve. If DL can make it work, more power to them (although it's probably not wonderful from an employee perspective).

It might not be apparent when everything is going smoothly, but during irregular operations you can easily tell the seasoned full-timers from the ready reserve agents.
 
azstar
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:30 pm



Quoting OOer (Reply 5):
It might not be apparent when everything is going smoothly, but during irregular operations you can easily tell the seasoned full-timers from the ready reserve agents.

Agree 100%. That's when you notice the difference.

[Edited 2014-09-28 15:30:57]
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:47 pm

I was a ready reserve in a station where we only had 3 mainline and 5 DCI departures a day. As a ready reserve your only benefit is flight benefits and you're capped at 1,300 hours a year. Ready reserves start out at around $11/hr and cap out at $12/hr. At my station ready reserves were mandated to work every holiday regardless of seniority.

I know some people have mentioned the senior agent vs. the RR agent argument. There were many times where the RR's were running circles around the senior agents during IROPS. Seniority doesn't necessarily mean higher skilled.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 2):
Why outsource to another company when you can pay your own people even less?

Do RRs accrue seniority? If so, perhaps the situation is somewhat different than you portray, for paying an RR $12/hour plus seniority and flight benefits might be better for both DL and the employee than paying a contractor $13/hour.
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b727fa
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:17 am

I find no difference in the RR and Reguu ACS FOLKS. A newbie in either position will have the same issues. A "seasoned" RR or Reg will perform equally well. That's like saying a reserve pilot is not as good as a line holder.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
ThomasMTroxell
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:34 am

Ready Reserves do accrue seniority. I started at DL this summer in ATL as a seasonal ready-reserve below-wing customer service agent (aka baggage handler). I work during the busy summer season and during the winter holidays. My hire date is in June and other than the fact that we don't receive any healthcare benefits, 401(k) contributions, etc we still receive the standard Delta flight benefits, shared rewards, and profit sharing. So even though I'm a RR I still travel at S3 and there is no difference in clearing for a seat on flights compared to full-time non-RR Delta staff. And since we do accrue seniority it follows us while we are at Delta, so even if we transfer to a full-time position or even transfer departments we still keep our hire date seniority.

Personally, I like the program and it allows me to work a flexible schedule while at school (if needed - I can choose to work outside of those normal work seasons if I want) while guaranteeing me a job during summer and winter. Couple that with the fact that I can swap shifts or even give shifts away to others if I want to take a summer vacation makes it a great fit for me. Plus I'm able to keep my flight benefits for the whole year and not just in the season that I'm working.

A few of the stations that have above-wing DL staff do have outsourced below-wing staff (usually to DGS) but usually if the station has insourced above-wing DL staff then the baggage handlers are insourced as well. I'll take slightly lower pay without benefits to remain a part of Delta-proper while keeping my great flight benefits. Sure the pay isn't a lot and the work is very hard but for me it fits and it works well. Plus I think any downsides are easily negated when I have the ability (and so far a great record) of clearing into J on long-haul flights.

[Edited 2014-09-28 21:44:46]
CRJ CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E90 DC9 MD80 MD88 MD90 717 733 734 735 73W 738 739ER 744 752 753 763 76W 764 77E 77L 77W A319 A320 A321 A343 US HP DL FL WN LH AC BA AB UA TW
 
flyguy89
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:04 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
If DL can make it work, more power to them (although it's probably not wonderful from an employee perspective).


If this program is in fact allowing DL to cost-effectively keep station ops and employees in-house relative to other carriers, then why wouldn't full-time DL employees be fine with it? It may encroach on some full time employees, but overall I'm sure they'd prefer that to having stations completely outsourced like at other carriers.
 
ThomasMTroxell
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:37 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
If this program is in fact allowing DL to cost-effectively keep station ops and employees in-house relative to other carriers, then why wouldn't full-time DL employees be fine with it? It may encroach on some full time employees, but overall I'm sure they'd prefer that to having stations completely outsourced like at other carriers.

   This 100%
CRJ CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E90 DC9 MD80 MD88 MD90 717 733 734 735 73W 738 739ER 744 752 753 763 76W 764 77E 77L 77W A319 A320 A321 A343 US HP DL FL WN LH AC BA AB UA TW
 
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aeromandan
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:03 pm

The Ready Reserve program is truly a beautiful thing. It allows for such great flexibility in staffing, and it's a great foot in the door to an amazing company (yeah, I'm biased, so what). Some agents aren't happy with the having restricted hours and no benefits for a good deal of time (I was ready reserve for two years before upgrading to full time by moving to a different position in a different city), but it's made very clear to every person that interviews and accepts the job that there is no set timetable for moving to a full-time, benefited position.

All that said, the majority of in-sourced below wing was grandfathered in from NW. Very few ramps were mainline DL before the merger. I would say only hubs and focus cities, but I have no evidence for that besides my own experience. But for above-wing, my experience was that virtually all cities with mainline service (even multiple international stations and minimally served domestics) had mainline agents even prior to the merger. The ready reserve program wasn't as big before the merger, and it's been called different things throughout the years (Temporary Part Time or TPT has been one of the previous names I've heard). It wasn't until the summer of 2010 that the program started to get as big as it is now. For example, it used to be that if your station was staffed with 40 agents above-wing, a likely ratio would be 35 regulars and 5 RR...perhaps even less. Now some of those 35 might have been part-time working 30 hours or less per week, but they would have full benefits. That ratio is now kept around 50/50 in many stations.
 
Cory6188
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
If this program is in fact allowing DL to cost-effectively keep station ops and employees in-house relative to other carriers, then why wouldn't full-time DL employees be fine with it? It may encroach on some full time employees, but overall I'm sure they'd prefer that to having stations completely outsourced like at other carriers.

Sorry, what I meant was not great conditions for the employees that are working without benefits, etc. -- but clearly, as posted above, it's an ideal arrangement for some people.
 
OOer
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 11):
If this program is in fact allowing DL to cost-effectively keep station ops and employees in-house relative to other carriers, then why wouldn't full-time DL employees be fine with it? It may encroach on some full time employees, but overall I'm sure they'd prefer that to having stations completely outsourced like at other carriers.

I think there would be much less opposition to the program if DL actually used it to fill in gaps, seasonal increases and such. Instead DL uses it as part of it's regular staffing in order to not pay benefits, higher wages etc. You should have at least 50% full-time, 30% part-time, and the remaining 20% as ready reserve. Instead across the system (outside of hubs) it's more like 30% full-time, 30% part-time, and 40% ready reserve. Why? It's just to drive costs down.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):
You should have at least 50% full-time, 30% part-time, and the remaining 20% as ready reserve.

Besides your personal opinion, what is "should" based on?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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par13del
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 15):
I think there would be much less opposition to the program if DL actually used it to fill in gaps, seasonal increases and such. Instead DL uses it as part of it's regular staffing in order to not pay benefits, higher wages etc.

DL appears to have the best of both worlds, obtain lower cost while still being in control of quality which is one of the cost savings gained when the job is fully outsourced.
When fully outsourced, do those companies get travel benefits similar to what DL offers now to the Reserve or is the travel benefit the perk for remaining at DL?
 
tlhgator
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:24 pm

It seems a lot of people are missing the point of ready reserve, it serves a triple purpose. One, allow folks with regular fill time jobs an opportunity to work a flexible schedule and gain flight benefits, I know RRs with 8yrs seniority, who work as teachers, firefighters, police officers etc. and are just doing it for flight benefits. Two it serves as the stepping stone to get to a benefitted position, I worked part time in a grocery store all through high school and college, I didn't receive benefits, was that company wrong for not giving me benefits? Third, this is a business, it provides cost effectiveness to keep a station in house vs. Outsourcing to a company that pays it's agents $8-$10 hr with no benefits, including travel. The program was implemented to be included in the station staffing levels, not just for filling in increases etc. the days of coming to ACS off the street as a benefitted employee is long gone, just like those before me who were TPT, that worked with no benefits and worked their way up this same thing but with a new name.
And it didn't take long, only 3 responses to mention Unions.
 
NW
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 10):
Ready Reserves do accrue seniority.

Seniority is only accrued for bidding purposes. A Ready Ready reserve who has been with the company for 6 years and then takes a full time benefited position, will have to start at the bottom of the pay scale and will take a pay cut for a year. It will take this employee 16.5 years to top out.

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 14):
it's more like 30% full-time, 30% part-time, and 40% ready reserve. Why? It's just to drive costs down.

Several stations are over 50% ready reserve now.
 
OOer
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting NW (Reply 19):

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 14):
it's more like 30% full-time, 30% part-time, and 40% ready reserve. Why? It's just to drive costs down.

Several stations are over 50% ready reserve now.

There you have it! It's almost impossible to get a FT job in an outstation at Delta. Why? Ready Reserve. Why have 1 full time employee when for the same price you can have 3 ready reserve employees?

Great for the business, not so great for the employees.

The union issue was brought up because only DL is able to do this, because they're non-union. The other carriers must maintain a certain ratio of full-time & part-time employees. Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.
 
cubastar
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
. Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.

Yes, but all employees do receive profit sharing don't they? Ready Reserve receives it, but at a lesser amount, right? (I'm just asking as I really do not know.)
 
adtall
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.

which we then get a sizable piece of, so is it a subsidy when we get what we are subsidizing back? Btw, happy Oct. 3 to you too  
 
jayunited
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Thread starter):
I know XNA is outsourced, which doesn't surprise me given that it only gets one mainline RON. However, I've been surprised at stations like TYS and BNA, where the flight mix is predominantly in favor of regional relative to mainline, or even just smaller stations like TUS with only a few flights per day, that all have mainline staff. I was in STT a few months ago, and the gate staff had DL uniforms, but I was pretty sure that they were all working for the local ground handler, just wearing the DL uniform.

I wonder if you are mistaking DGS employees for actual DL mainline employees don't forget DGS is DL subsidiary and if those employees are only working DL flights at that particular station I wonder if DL gives them offical DL uniforms as well?



Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 1):
A big reason is the Ready Reserve program, whereby employees work up to 1200 hours a year, don't receive benefits other than pass travel, and are paid a set, entry-level wage. Some employees like the low hours and flexibility and remain Ready Reserves for a while, others eventually move up to benefitted positions.

Exactly Ready Reserve is one of the major keys DL uses to control employee cost and it is a program that neither AA nor UA can copy above or below wing because both these airlines have unions preventing them from implementing this program. And although UA has shifted a number of employees to part time trying to mimic DL's program the truth is there is no substitute for ready reserve and not having to pay any benefits as all. So companies like UA when part time does not work decide to outsource the station. In fact some of the 12 stations UA recently outsourced some of those contracts were awarded to DGS. Why because those employees will be making a little more than minimum wage with no benefits at all. Nothing against DGS they have been in business for quite some time and do contract work for both AA and UA but their employees don't make any money.
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
I didn't know they had DL TechOps at BNA.

Fairly recent (re)opening, along with MCI & MSY.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
ne other thing that a lot of folks forget is that NW was pretty heavily insourced at the time of the merger.

This.

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 10):
and other than the fact that we don't receive any healthcare benefits, 401(k) contributions, etc we still receive the standard Delta flight benefits, shared rewards, and profit sharing.

That's a pretty big list you're willing to overlook as long as it means you can still try to flit around the globe.

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 10):
A few of the stations that have above-wing DL staff do have outsourced below-wing staff (usually to DGS) but usually if the station has insourced above-wing DL staff then the baggage handlers are insourced as well

If by "a few" you mean dozens, then you're correct. And no, it's not the norm that a station with M/L AW agents has M/L ramp as well.

Quoting aeromandan (Reply 13):
All that said, the majority of in-sourced below wing was grandfathered in from NW. Very few ramps were mainline DL before the merger. I would say only hubs and focus cities, but I have no evidence for that besides my own experience.

PMDL had 12 or 13 cities staffed. NW had 40.



Quoting tlhgator (Reply 18):
The program was implemented to be included in the station staffing levels, not just for filling in increases etc....

We were told the exact opposite.

Quoting NW (Reply 19):
A Ready Ready reserve who has been with the company for 6 years and then takes a full time benefited position, will have to start at the bottom of the pay scale and will take a pay cut for a year. It will take this employee 16.5 years to top out.

Some reward for making a commitment to the company...  
Quoting cubastar (Reply 21):
Yes, but all employees do receive profit sharing don't they? Ready Reserve receives it, but at a lesser amount, right? (I'm just asking as I really do not know.)

It's based on a percentage of everyone's income.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 23):
I wonder if you are mistaking DGS employees for actual DL mainline employees don't forget DGS is DL subsidiary and if those employees are only working DL flights at that particular station I wonder if DL gives them offical DL uniforms as well?

Not for nothing, but in the OP's example, TUS & BNA definitely have AW employees. Pretty sure TYS is as well? BNA has BW employees (thanks to the NW CBA language) as well...
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deltal1011man
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):

The union issue was brought up because only DL is able to do this, because they're non-union. The other carriers must maintain a certain ratio of full-time & part-time employees. Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.

Just for the record I believe HA has a program that is a lot like RR. (they are IAM)

I don't think its a bad program if it has hard limits.
but I completely think Delta abuses it.
 
airtechy
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:50 pm

I have no idea what it is, but I'll bet if you look at the turnover rate of the Ready Reserves vs. the contracted out guys you will discover who the actual workers think the best deal is.....all things considered.  
 
flyguy89
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Great for the business, not so great for the employees.

Again, would you rather they just outsourced everything with full-time employees only at a handful of outstations? Ready Reserve ratios may be higher than you're comfortable with, but at least DL is maintaining the stations in-house with full-time benefited employees as opposed to other carriers.

It's ironic that it's the non-union carrier that appears to be bucking the out-sourcing trend.
 
dlramp4life
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
I don't think its a bad program if it has hard limits.
but I completely think Delta abuses it.

Yeah it is tough as a Ready Reserve, especially in a senior station like mine. I am a three year RR employee and I know I will never see full time unless I transfer to a hub or another insourced station. On the bright side with my seniority which indeed goes with me where ever I go, I can bid any shift I want and have the time to find another job and work on school.

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
There you have it! It's almost impossible to get a FT job in an outstation at Delta.

Depends on the station, PHX, MCO, TPA, DEN, and PDX just to name a few are pretty senior stations, so yes it would be hard to get full time but there are always full time ramp openings at many other stations at any given point. Also the hubs are always looking for full time employees.
 
Super80DFW
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:16 pm

With the Ready Reserve program, do employees still bid schedules per seniority or do employees have days of availability, and days that they're not available to work? Can someone explain that to me.
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dlramp4life
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 29):

With the Ready Reserve program, do employees still bid schedules per seniority or do employees have days of availability, and days that they're not available to work? Can someone explain that to m

Yes there are just different bids. Full time gets their own bid while the ready reserves get their own.
 
T5towbar
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Great for the business, not so great for the employees.

Again, would you rather they just outsourced everything with full-time employees only at a handful of outstations? Ready Reserve ratios may be higher than you're comfortable with, but at least DL is maintaining the stations in-house with full-time benefited employees as opposed to other carriers.

It's ironic that it's the non-union carrier that appears to be bucking the out-sourcing trend.

That's true in one aspect. But you still have DGS alongside as well. It still keeps Delta's procedures in place while having an even lower cost workforce do which can be canned, just like in DTW. Outsourcing your own outsourcing arm. Now that that's funny.. What does that tell you when even your own contracting company can't even keep the contract in one of its own hubs?

I just don't like the situations where the vendor can't staff properly and someone has to do the work. Do we as mainline employees have to step in and bail them out? We are not contractually obligated to do so. Menzies (Simplicity) is supposed to be doing the DEN express ramp after SkyWest left. I'm hearing that there are staffing problems for the wages offered. Don't know how true that rumor is.
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OOer
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting cubastar (Reply 21):
Yes, but all employees do receive profit sharing don't they? Ready Reserve receives it, but at a lesser amount, right? (I'm just asking as I really do not know.)

It's based on a percentage of their income. So the less they make, the less they'll get in profit sharing.

Quoting adtall (Reply 22):

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):
Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.

which we then get a sizable piece of, so is it a subsidy when we get what we are subsidizing back? Btw, happy Oct. 3 to you too  

Yes, employees will get 10% up to the $2.5 billion mark and 20% above that. So give me $10 and i'll give you $2 back. Happy?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):

Quoting OOer (Reply 20):

The union issue was brought up because only DL is able to do this, because they're non-union. The other carriers must maintain a certain ratio of full-time & part-time employees. Delta employees across all departments are subsidizing Delta's $4 Billion profit.

Just for the record I believe HA has a program that is a lot like RR. (they are IAM)

I don't think its a bad program if it has hard limits.
but I completely think Delta abuses it.

That's the problem.It's a program I would have no problem with if used reasonably to simply fill in during seasonal adjustments and maybe a hole here and there. Instead it's used to substitute full-time positions.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
It's ironic that it's the non-union carrier that appears to be bucking the out-sourcing trend.

They're not bucking the trend, they've found a way to do it even cheaper than the outsourcer. Not really something i'd consider a better thing.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 23):
I wonder if you are mistaking DGS employees for actual DL mainline employees don't forget DGS is DL subsidiary and if those employees are only working DL flights at that particular station I wonder if DL gives them offical DL uniforms as well?

Yes, they do. DGS even has Delta Red Coats--exactly the same uniform as mainline.
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adtall
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
Yes, employees will get 10% up to the $2.5 billion mark and 20% above that. So give me $10 and i'll give you $2 back. Happy?

If you can back up that $10 and $2 figure, I'd be extremely surprised. So how much of DL's profit as a percentage do you think the employees are subsidizing? Just curious, since with the new pay raise we'll (full-time) have better pay than everyone but WN. And please, compare that percentage of profit that you think employees are subsidizing DL with (with sources, of course) with the percentages of profit sharing. I'd love to know the results.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
I don't think its a bad program if it has hard limits.
but I completely think Delta abuses it.

No argument on that, they need to improve here.
 
NWAESC
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
They're not bucking the trend, they've found a way to do it even cheaper than the outsourcer. Not really something i'd consider a better thing.

^This^

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
I don't think its a bad program if it has hard limits.
but I completely think Delta abuses it.

^Also this^
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deltal1011man
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):

That's the problem.It's a program I would have no problem with if used reasonably to simply fill in during seasonal adjustments and maybe a hole here and there. Instead it's used to substitute full-time positions.

I'm not even sure I would go that far. I think its fair to have maybe a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio of FT to RR. I think the majority needs to be FTers but also allow some RRs per stations.

the biggest thing is that the program should cause as much stagnation as it does. Having to stay on RR or move after you have been with the company for 5-10 years is crap. Its even more crap that it happens on a very wide scale
 
ThomasMTroxell
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
That's a pretty big list you're willing to overlook as long as it means you can still try to flit around the globe.

Well for me it isn't that big of a deal. I wouldn't have those benefits at a summer job when I'm in college.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
Again, would you rather they just outsourced everything with full-time employees only at a handful of outstations? Ready Reserve ratios may be higher than you're comfortable with, but at least DL is maintaining the stations in-house with full-time benefited employees as opposed to other carriers.

It's ironic that it's the non-union carrier that appears to be bucking the out-sourcing trend.

That's the way I look at it.

Quoting tlhgator (Reply 18):
I know RRs with 8yrs seniority, who work as teachers, firefighters, police officers etc. and are just doing it for flight benefits. Two it serves as the stepping stone to get to a benefited position, I worked part time in a grocery store all through high school and college, I didn't receive benefits, was that company wrong for not giving me benefits?

In ATL, I worked with a great group of RRs. Some were college students like myself, others were high school students that hadn't gone to college yet, there were several who were K-12 teachers who only work there during the summer. It isn't for everybody, and Delta is very clear in every step of the hiring process what you are getting into. But as a summer job I think it could be a lot worse.

Quoting aeromandan (Reply 13):
The Ready Reserve program is truly a beautiful thing. It allows for such great flexibility in staffing, and it's a great foot in the door to an amazing company (yeah, I'm biased, so what)

I plan on making a career at the company and I'm sure I'll move to a full time position soon enough, even if that means moving to another station and then coming back to the Worldport. RR is just a great thing for me since I'm in college. So I can live without those perks for a couple of years.
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strfyr51
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:15 pm

Like it or not? After the initial problems with outsourced stations the stations have cooled out and do what they're supposed to.
At United we have quite a few outsourced maintenanace stations Like BDL (Delta) GDG (American) YVR (Skytech) etc.
Some of those guys have been with us for years and we know and trust them. If the troubleshooting becomes too much?
We send in our own Cavalry.. At 1.75x per minute(for EVERY Minute away from station )?? We don't have any shortage of volunteers
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flyguy89
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
It's ironic that it's the non-union carrier that appears to be bucking the out-sourcing trend.

They're not bucking the trend, they've found a way to do it even cheaper than the outsourcer. Not really something i'd consider a better thing.

Really? Which airlines are announcing mass, complete out-sourcing of non-hub stations and transferring or laying off all of their directly employed full-timers? It isn't DL.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 31):
I just don't like the situations where the vendor can't staff properly and someone has to do the work. Do we as mainline employees have to step in and bail them out?

Bail them out in what respect? I'm not denying it's a perfect situation but the industry has changed, so again, is it preferable to you to put up with some contractors to maintain stations in-house or to just completely outsource the station and abandon ANY direct, mainline employment there?

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 36):
Having to stay on RR or move after you have been with the company for 5-10 years is crap.

Then don't take a job that puts you in that position. The parameters of Ready Reserve aren't a secret, and no one puts a gun to your head to accept the position. Many people have gained a foothold to fulfilling full-time jobs with DL alongside those that enjoy the flexibility the program offers.
 
oosnowrat
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:02 am

I wonder how many of you who have notions of proper full-time/part-time staffing levels have ever run a company with more than five employees.

Maybe those of you who were employeed at an airline during one of the many bankruptcies and shutdowns can comment on this: which is better for employees overall -- a profitable airline, or one that loses money hand over fist?

As an employee, if the option is outsourcing an entire station to Menzies or brining a Ready Reserve-type program on property, I'll take the option that will retain the most jobs in-house. I would think the unions would recognize that, too; a union member on Ready Reserve would pay more dues than a Menzies or DGS employee. I'm curious to hear more about HA's program, if indeed it does exist.

If Ready Reserve was such an awful program for employees, nobody would sign up for it.
 
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
GDG (American)

GDG?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):

Then don't take a job that puts you in that position. The parameters of Ready Reserve aren't a secret, and no one puts a gun to your head to accept the position. Many people have gained a foothold to fulfilling full-time jobs with DL alongside those that enjoy the flexibility the program offers.

I hate this argument. Why can't it be a neutral program. good for employees and good for the company. Have hard limits that are fair limits.

Don't like the job don't take it.....We I don't like any job that I have to do any kind of work and don't being a billionaire over night..... Guess I just should just live off the government till i find that job.  
 
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 41):
I hate this argument. Why can't it be a neutral program. good for employees and good for the company. Have hard limits that are fair limits.

Based on the employees who are actually a part of Ready Reserve at DL - those who have responded here - it is good for employees and good for the company. Those who aren't part of the program seem to be the ones with sour grapes.
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 36):
the biggest thing is that the program should cause as much stagnation as it does. Having to stay on RR or move after you have been with the company for 5-10 years is crap. Its even more crap that it happens on a very wide scale

And on a related note, with DL's trend to "right-size" the mix of RR & benefited employees, those benefited employees who hope to move up to more preferential schedules can forget about it. As each benefited employee leaves, they are replaced by R/R help. Everyone else is basically frozen seniority-wise. I have nothing against the ready reserve program--even though I have a benefited position and believe that DL is exploiting the RR employees. It does work for some people. I do have a problem when schedules are drawn up that have agents with 1-2 years of seniority hold partial and full weekends off and a benefited employee with 20 + years cannot touch those RDO's. All because "we (DL) need to make the shifts attractive."

Everyone in the airline business knows that seniority is very, very important. Not in all cases, I guess...

The other problem I have is how DL awards full time positions (in the rare cases that one DOES open up). They do not award them strictly in seniority order. For example, a 20-year full-time employee who is trying to relocate can fall behind a ready reserve agent with less than one year who happens to be from that station that the senior employee wants to transfer to. And, when the position is finally awarded, it is not posted for anyone to see. One has to do "detective work" to see who actually got it. I am not necessarily a union fanboy, but when we had a union there was a Bid Desk that operated with transparency. All bids were available for all to see. Despite all the good that DL does, it's this underhandedness that could be done away with.

If anything, R/R should have the same pay scales, even if they don't have a full benefits package due to the limited number of hours they work. It's unethical that two agents with the same seniority work side by side, yet one makes twice as much as the other.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 36):
the biggest thing is that the program should cause as much stagnation as it does. Having to stay on RR or move after you have been with the company for 5-10 years is crap. Its even more crap that it happens on a very wide scale

Welcome to the airline world, in which where you work isn't necessarily permanent, but it isn't a new thing. It's been happening long before the Ready Reserve program started, which, I believe was in the early to mid 80s.
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coronado
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:03 pm

After reading all the posts above I have to conclude the RR system is valid as it allows Delta to basically operate a summer schedule about 25% higher than their winter schedules. The old RA adage that why loose in the winter months the profits made during summer months is very valid. As long as the RR program explains what is involved to the affected at will employees it is certainly valid. I don't see it as any different from the masses of college students who sign up with UPS in Nov and December to earn some extra money sorting packages. Decent pay rate, decent working conditions, but you know it is only a short term assignment. But yet I know a few of these UPS college students that used that to get a permanent job with UPS after they graduated.
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aeromandan
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting NW (Reply 20):
Seniority is only accrued for bidding purposes. A Ready Ready reserve who has been with the company for 6 years and then takes a full time benefited position, will have to start at the bottom of the pay scale and will take a pay cut for a year. It will take this employee 16.5 years to top out.

This is incorrect. When you upgrade to a benefitted position from RR, a new pay seniority date is calculated based on the number of hours you've worked over you employment with Delta. For example, if you have worked at Delta for exactly three years (for simplicity's sake) and maxed out on hours each year (1300 hours), then you've worked a total of 3900 hours. You upgrade exactly at three years (again, for simplicity). Delta assumes that a full-time employee works 2080 hours a year (52 weeks at 40 hours a week). 3900/2080 = approx 1.9...your pay seniority date is now 1.9 years. This is only for scale positions.

Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 30):
With the Ready Reserve program, do employees still bid schedules per seniority or do employees have days of availability, and days that they're not available to work? Can someone explain that to me.

When I started, we gave our supervisors days of availability and they scheduled around that. As the program has grown, this became impractical.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
the biggest thing is that the program should cause as much stagnation as it does. Having to stay on RR or move after you have been with the company for 5-10 years is crap. Its even more crap that it happens on a very wide scale

If you're unwilling to relocate when working for the airlines, you should expect to stagnate regardless of RR status. I'd say this even applies to hubs.

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 38):
I plan on making a career at the company and I'm sure I'll move to a full time position soon enough, even if that means moving to another station and then coming back to the Worldport. RR is just a great thing for me since I'm in college. So I can live without those perks for a couple of years.

Story of my life. Granted, I would have liked to have those benefits, and I brought it up at many leadership meetings, open houses, interactions with HR, etc., and it definitely did not fall on deaf ears. Delta is always responsive to professional, well-directed inqueries and requests. That doesn't mean that action happens quickly. It takes a long time to right a big ship.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 40):
Then don't take a job that puts you in that position. The parameters of Ready Reserve aren't a secret, and no one puts a gun to your head to accept the position. Many people have gained a foothold to fulfilling full-time jobs with DL alongside those that enjoy the flexibility the program offers.

Amen, brotha! To me, this invalidates all the complaining that people do in the program. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR!...just sayin...

That being said...are there improvements to be made? Yes, of course. I'm speculating that this program will be overhauled to provide better quality of life over the coming years. I have no idea what that will look like, but I think there will be options.

Quoting NWBOS (Reply 44):
And on a related note, with DL's trend to "right-size" the mix of RR & benefited employees, those benefited employees who hope to move up to more preferential schedules can forget about it. As each benefited employee leaves, they are replaced by R/R help. Everyone else is basically frozen seniority-wise. I have nothing against the ready reserve program--even though I have a benefited position and believe that DL is exploiting the RR employees. It does work for some people. I do have a problem when schedules are drawn up that have agents with 1-2 years of seniority hold partial and full weekends off and a benefited employee with 20 + years cannot touch those RDO's. All because "we (DL) need to make the shifts attractive."

Everyone in the airline business knows that seniority is very, very important. Not in all cases, I guess...

ACS stations employ a one internal, one external upgrade system. Let's say a station has 3 full-time positions open, and the last person hired into a full-time position the last time one was open was from within the station. These 3 new positions will be filled with two people from outside the stations (i.e., a full-time person wants to transfer from XXX station, and a RR wants to transfer from YYY station...all in seniority order) and one person inside the station (a RR upgrading to full-time...also in seniority order). After this, if another position opens, then it would be filled from within the station and continue alternating with the next openings.

[Edited 2014-10-01 11:20:44 by wilco737]

[Edited 2014-10-01 11:23:27 by wilco737]
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting aeromandan (Reply 46):
Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
And on a related note, with DL's trend to "right-size" the mix of RR & benefited employees, those benefited employees who hope to move up to more preferential schedules can forget about it. As each benefited employee leaves, they are replaced by R/R help. Everyone else is basically frozen seniority-wise. I have nothing against the ready reserve program--even though I have a benefited position and believe that DL is exploiting the RR employees. It does work for some people. I do have a problem when schedules are drawn up that have agents with 1-2 years of seniority hold partial and full weekends off and a benefited employee with 20 + years cannot touch those RDO's. All because "we (DL) need to make the shifts attractive."

Everyone in the airline business knows that seniority is very, very important. Not in all cases, I guess...

Just as an FYI, this NOT my quote. It is actually reply #43.

[Edited 2014-10-01 08:45:03]
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pu
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:06 pm

1. There are plenty of people willing to work for just the flight benefits. Students, housewives/househusbands/teachers etc all are often not needing a full time job and then there are retired cops, retired military etc. who also don't need much pay and benefits but love free flights. IMO the demographic that is attracted to RR positions are often better employees than those that demand the company offer big pay, a lifetime of healthcare, retirement etc.

2. I think it's ridiculous that some people make $50k a year boarding passengers plus benefits and others make $12 an hour with only free flights. Sorry, these are not $50k a year jobs: my evidence of that is that these same people usually can't get a $50k /year job anywhere else if they were fired today. What's wrong with aligning the pay with the skills required and the large supply of workers wanting only worldwide travel????



Pu
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Insourced Stations Vs. Other US Airlines

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 48):
What's wrong with aligning the pay with the skills required and the large supply of workers wanting only worldwide travel????

Why should an employee that has the airline as a career, have their pay equalized with someone that has no wish, whatsoever to keep this job as a career. All they want is the free travel. As as been mentioned, most of these people already have a full time career as police, teachers, etc. or they are students that will leave DL in a heartbeat once they graduate and find a higher paying job, elsewhere. No sense punishing your other, full time employees, by reducing their pay to make it all equal.
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