Could Greenland Be Made A Transatlantic Hub?

lesfalls · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:10 pm

Air Greenland these days arent going so well.They are now even selling 3 of their Dash 7.Why coundnt and can right now make greenland a hub to go from US to EU like Iceland (They have had plans to build a new airport in NUUK)?

copter808 · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:19 pm

I suppose it's possible, but not practical. Nearly 100% of the traffic would be connecting. It would be easier to have the connections at a hub with more local traffic. Even 60-70 years ago many of the flights bypassed Greenland for Gander.

So, yes, it COULD be. But no, it will NOT be.

peterinlisbon · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:27 pm

The population of the entire country is 56,000 people, the same as the town of Souk-Sebt-des-Oulad-Nemâa in Morocco. I don't think they'll be getting a transatlantic hub, either, even though it might make more sense.

aviatorcraig · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:33 pm

Because:

1. There is not enough infrastructure to support it. e.g. Hotels
2. Cost of everything (labour, catering, fuel etc.) would be very high.
3. Whilst a stop over in Greenland would be of great interest to a few, for the majority it would have little appeal.
4. Weather and lack of alternates would make year-round opps unreliable.
5. Planes can fly the pond non-stop these days!
6. 27 other reasons I haven't thought of yet...

The only way we are likely to see Greenland successfully involved in TATL flying is if Ryanair market it as Nova Scotia (East).

CrimsonNL · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
Air Greenland these days arent going so well.They are now even selling 3 of their Dash 7.Why coundnt and can right now make greenland a hub to go from US to EU like Iceland (They have had plans to build a new airport in NUUK)?

I'm not certain that AirGreenland is doing bad. The reason that the DH7 is (sadly) being retired is that they are worn and tired birds, that have been true workhorses in often extreme conditions. Some of the frames are more then 30 years old, and spare parts are getting rare and very expensive.

Greenland as a hub geographically might be a good. But in reality it's not very practical. The airport at SFJ, the main "Hub" for GL and en-route diversions, is not much more then one big runway with a tiny terminal and some support buildings. The town of Kangerlussuaq basically exists to support the airfield. There is not much room for expansion there because it's located in a fjord with hills on the sides, and a glacier melt-water river running past the airport which is impossible to bypass.

The current airport at Nuuk has a much shorter runway then SFJ, I doubt jet types that have the legs to reach Europe from there can operate from it. The immediate area around the city of Nuuk are all fjords, mountains and ocean, so there is no room to expand there.

Iceland is of course a much different story because the area around KEF is just all flat, where you can pretty much expand in all directions.

My two (euro)cents,

Martijn

Aesma · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:41 pm

There are some flights from Iceland to/from the US and Canada and to/from the EU that can connect. That doesn't make it a hub by any stretch of the imagination.

Maersk737 · Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 4):
The current airport at Nuuk has a much shorter runway then SFJ, I doubt jet types that have the legs to reach Europe from there can operate from it. The immediate area around the city of Nuuk are all fjords, mountains and ocean, so there is no room to expand there.

The runway at Nuuk is too short.

There has been some talk about building a new airport on the other side of the fjord, and connecting to Nuuk via a tunnel under the fjord.... But it will cost lots of billions, and no one really knows, where to find the money.

Cheers

Peter

sierra3tango · Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:49 pm

Off topic - I know but have always thought the Azores would be a good geographic place for a hub

Both North & South American carriers could operate 'scissors' through it as could European / African carriers going
the other way

Trouble being the minute O&D

kurtjeter · Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:05 am

I agree with most of the posters--in some ways attractive, but in most ways impractical.
"My" number 1 reason for it being attractive? I'm sure it would be the only way I'd ever get to Greenland!

Viscount724 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:27 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
There are some flights from Iceland to/from the US and Canada and to/from the EU that can connect. That doesn't make it a hub by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't agree with that. FI considers KEF a hub and carefully designs their schedules to maximize connectivity. They can't possibly rely only on O&D Iceland traffic.

For example, several of FI's flights to the western U.S. and Canada overnight there rather than turning around and returning the same day. That's because they would miss most of their onward flights to the rest of Europe due to the late arrival time.

prebennorholm · Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
Air Greenland these days arent going so well.

Air Greenland is doing very well. And if that wasn't the case, then the taxpayers in Greenland and Denmark would have to make them do very well.

Air Greenland is not a normal commercial business. It's a state run service organisation, which serves a lot more than just commercial passenger flight. In other countries the government provides roads, in Greenland they provide air transport instead.

In addition to commercial passenger flight they perform ambulance flights, search and rescue, mail, freight to remote settlements, run hotel, travel agency, and just anything which can serve the population. They even have a 50% stake in a state run shipping company.

Shareholders are: Greenland state: 37.5%. Danish state: 25%. SAS: 37.5%. (SAS is itself majority state owned).

Air Greenland and the Greenland airports and heliports are entirely made to serve the population of the country, period. We can just forget about anything related to the outside world. It would be much too cumbersome and expensive.

A few years back they got six Dash-8-200. They will do their domestic passenger flight in the future, replacing the old Dash-7. If only they could have sold the -7's for money, they would have gone by now. But they have kept them until they fase the next major check when they will likely be scrapped after having done fantastic service for the country for decades.

aviatorcraig · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:37 am

Maybe of interest to this thread... In the late sixties and early seventies, Wardair Canada used to regularly fly 'Affinity Group charters' (a way of getting around the IATA regulations of those days) between YYZ and LGW with a sole Boeing 727-11, CF-FUN. As the 727 didn't have the legs to fly trans-Atlantic non-stop, it made a tech stop at Sondre Stromfjord (SFJ).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerry Hughes

I'm not aware of any other airline doing similar ops, and Wardair discontinued the service when they got equipment that could fly the route non-stop.

egph · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:50 am

While we are discussing Greenland. I have often wondered what the accessibility of Greenland's major airports like Nuuk and Narsarsuaq are like in the depths of winter? Can they run a good service all through winter or does weather make them close many winter days?

DrColenzo · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:54 am

Quoting lesfalls (Thread starter):
Air Greenland these days arent going so well

Actually, their financial results are up on last year and they are doing better than half a decade ago! It appears Air Greenland are just phasing out the Dash 7, which is quite thirsty and consolidating with the Dash 8 - I wouldn't be surprised to find an order for new STOL turboprops at some point in the near future as they seek to reap the rewards of more fuel and maintenance efficient aircraft.

There isn't much in Greenland right now unless you are a true adventure, raw wilderness and isolated community tourist like myself and it is too cold (ergo icy) for a decent ski (we tried). Then again, there was not much but sand in much of the UAE and Qatar a few decades back and now look at those nations and all the stop over traffic that goes there.

Duty shopping in Nuuk, anyone? I look forward to the salted whale meat buffet...

CPH-R · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:57 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 6):
But it will cost lots of billions, and no one really knows, where to find the money.

Sounds like they were really hoping for the exotic mineral adventure to take off, thus bringing in money - a lot of money.

brilondon · Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 3):
27 other reasons I haven't thought of yet.

Yes I agree with all 32 reasons and I cannot for the life of me wonder why there are even people wanting to go there. In winter it is inhospitable and in summer it is inhospitable and full of bugs. There really is a great need for air travel to Greenland unless you like the outdoors or are nuts.

DrColenzo · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 15):
There really is a great need for air travel to Greenland unless you like the outdoors or are nuts.

I think you have summed up this thread, nicely

lesfalls · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 11):
Maybe of interest to this thread... In the late sixties and early seventies, Wardair Canada used to regularly fly 'Affinity Group charters' (a way of getting around the IATA regulations of those days) between YYZ and LGW with a sole Boeing 727-11, CF-FUN. As the 727 didn't have the legs to fly trans-Atlantic non-stop, it made a tech stop at Sondre Stromfjord (SFJ).

I wonder why they chose Greenland?Interesting

Viscount724 · Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 17):
Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 11):
Maybe of interest to this thread... In the late sixties and early seventies, Wardair Canada used to regularly fly 'Affinity Group charters' (a way of getting around the IATA regulations of those days) between YYZ and LGW with a sole Boeing 727-11, CF-FUN. As the 727 didn't have the legs to fly trans-Atlantic non-stop, it made a tech stop at Sondre Stromfjord (SFJ).

I wonder why they chose Greenland?Interesting

Because it was closest to the great circle route, especially from western Canada points.

When CP became the 2nd carrier to operate direct same-plane service between the West Coast and Europe in mid-1955 (after SAS the year before), the DC-6B initially used on YVR-AMS (replaced by Bristol Britannia around 1959) also made a fuel stop at SFJ for the same reason as the Wardair 727-100 (occasionally KEF if winds favoured the more southerly route).

The SFJ fuel stops for CP ended when the DC-8 replaced the Britannia in 1961.