Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space

worldflight · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:29 pm

It’s official: City tells a ‘disappointed’ Delta Air Lines it can no longer fly out of Dallas Love Field.
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...fly-out-of-dallas-love-field.html/

1337Delta764 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:34 pm

The City of Dallas should prepare for a lawsuit from Delta, since they are not allowing for fair competition.

jetblue1965 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:37 pm

"A United Airlines spokesperson said the carrier had not seen the letter and was not commenting on it. Messages have been left for Duebner and Gonzalez. We will update if and when they call back."

Funny this is mentioned since UA was the party solely responsible for single handedly kicking DL out of DAL (through their unrealistic long turn around times .... how slow can you be to need 90 mins to turn around a ERJ ?)

worldflight · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:38 pm

It's ironic that Virgin America a new entrant to DFW was granted access and Delta a existing user access was revoked.

durangomac · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Funny this is mentioned since UA was the party solely responsible for single handedly kicking DL out of DAL (through their unrealistic long turn around times .... how slow can you be to need 90 mins to turn around a ERJ ?)

This may have more to do with the bank structure at the other airports. Since DAL won't be a hub it's more likely they built in some extra time so the plane doesn't set for 2 hours in a hub. Just a thought and I haven't really seen the full schedule to say one way or another.

deltal1011man · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting worldflight (Thread starter):

very curious if Delta will just walk away for try and take it to court.

Polot · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
very curious if Delta will just walk away for try and take it to court.

I'm sure WN is hoping they take the latter option...

usflyguy · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:48 pm

My favorite line from the article... "Banstetter says the airline was stunned when the city gave Delta its two weeks’ notice this afternoon. He says it’s not yet clear how the airline will accommodate passengers who bought tickets from Love to Atlanta on or after October 13, but it’s likely they be redirected to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport."

Ummm... they sure did find a way to sell tickets from DAL to LAX, LGA, and a couple of other cities without even having the facilities to accommodate those flights and they didn't seem to have a problem re-accommodating those passengers.

N766UA · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:48 pm

I thought the repealing of the Wright amendment was supposed to increase competition and promote growth? What, so if you aren't SWA it doesn't apply to you? Buzz off what crap.

NWAROOSTER · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Richard Anderson is a lawyer and from Texas. He most likely already knows what Delta will be doing. He may even take this personal and make it very uncomfortable and expensive for the City of Dallas.

Sooner787 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
very curious if Delta will just walk away for try and take it to court.

I'd like to see DL try to start up service from Collin County ( McKinney Airport)

That's where the real growth in the DFW area is happening

DocLightning · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:00 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
Richard Anderson is a lawyer and from Texas. He most likely already knows what Delta will be doing. He may even take this personal and make it very uncomfortable and expensive for the City of Dallas.

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If he does that, they may then try to screw them over at DFW, as well.

deltal1011man · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:04 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 7):
Ummm... they sure did find a way to sell tickets from DAL to LAX, LGA, and a couple of other cities without even having the facilities to accommodate those flights and they didn't seem to have a problem re-accommodating those passengers.

Apples to oranges here.
The MSP, LAX, DTW and LGA flights were pulled a while ago and wouldn't have had much traffic on them. (not many people book a year out.

The ATL flying however has still be selling and now is going to have to be pulled less than two weeks before it was suppose to start.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
I thought the repealing of the Wright amendment was supposed to increase competition and promote growth? What, so if you aren't SWA it doesn't apply to you? Buzz off what crap.

Basically.

being the love child of the .gov has advantages

Jerseyguy · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:07 pm

When the Wright settlement was announced I always thought the 20 gate limit was a bunch of crap. All politicans taking care of the lobbyists that line their pockets.

NC1844V · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:24 pm

Eventually, DAL is going to have to keep up with the times and expand its abilities to accommodate airlines, if I was the City of Dallas, I wouldn't want to run competition away.

Would Delta be moving over its operations to DFW?

Thanks for sharing.

milemaster · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 10):
I'd like to see DL try to start up service from Collin County ( McKinney Airport)

That's where the real growth in the DFW area is happening

The flimsy balsa wood McMansions built in that part of the metroplex would literally be blown to pieces if any sizable jet flew into McKinney airport.

deltal1011man · Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting NC1844V (Reply 14):

maybe a small bump in capacity but more than likely Dallas just cost themselves a nice chunk of seats in and out of Dallas.

jimbobjoe · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:04 pm

Could DL just do it the old fashioned way...with a set of stairs and/or a bus to the remote stand?

Chisky16 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:09 pm

I don't even understand why Delta, one of the biggest airlines in the world, is giving itself a headache over not being able to fly into DAL. It has a healthy operation in DFW, so why not focus on that instead of being unsettled about not serving measly Dallas-Love. Am I missing something here?

Rdh3e · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:19 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
The City of Dallas should prepare for a lawsuit from Delta, since they are not allowing for fair competition.

Quoting worldflight (Reply 3):
It's ironic that Virgin America a new entrant to DFW was granted access and Delta a existing user access was revoked.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
very curious if Delta will just walk away for try and take it to court.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
I thought the repealing of the Wright amendment was supposed to increase competition and promote growth?

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
He may even take this personal and make it very uncomfortable and expensive for the City of Dallas.

Quoting NC1844V (Reply 14):
if I was the City of Dallas, I wouldn't want to run competition away.

Do none of you realize that the reason DL is being booted is because UA adjusted their schedule in such a way that there is no more gate space? The city of Dallas had nothing to do with this. VX is staying because they won the bid last year for a preferential use gate. DL only has the right to use gates when no one else is, and UA doubled their schedule in order to use both gates and not allow DL to use their gates.

If we're going to bash someone, at least chose the right party to blame here.

ridgid727 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:21 pm

Certainly UA should not be vilified for not wanting to help DL out. Its their gate.

strfyr51 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
He may even take this personal and make it very uncomfortable and expensive for the City of Dallas.

I would Were I Anderson. Either everybody or NOBODY flies out of DAL. Make it Scorched Earth up to the time It costs Dallas a bundle at least.
What are they going to Do?? Tell Delta they can't fly out of DFW too??.

jetblastdubai · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 19):
UA doubled their schedule in order to use both gates and not allow DL to use their gates.

DL would have done the same thing.

william · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:31 pm

Where was all this angst when the agreement to open up Love five years ago was made. No one seen bothered the restrictions then. Of course this was going to happen to somebody other than SWA.

par13del · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting william (Reply 23):
Where was all this angst when the agreement to open up Love five years ago was made.

Or where were all these folks when WN was fighting to get rid of the WA, if they were involved the cities of DAL and DFW may have been forced to make different concessions.

OzarkD9S · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):

very curious if Delta will just walk away for try and take it to court.

I hope they do, not just for DL but everyone. I've always felt the new DAL agreement is an anti-competitive joke.

MIflyer12 · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:37 pm

Delta could take the four 744 it's planning to park and put them into continuous rotations ORD-SFO-ORD and IAD-SFO-IAD, booking last minute fares into a discounted/instant-upgrade First fare rule FUUA.

deltal1011man · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:38 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 19):
If we're going to bash someone, at least chose the right party to blame here.

Its not United's fault.

This is on the City of Dallas for the horse s**t agreement they have.

Okie · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 21):
Either everybody or NOBODY flies out of DAL. Make it Scorched Earth up to the time It costs Dallas a bundle at least.
What are they going to Do?? Tell Delta they can't fly out of DFW too??.

There is the extreme possibility that DL may be suffering from the scorched earth policy from the major pull back at DFW years ago.
There were a lot of ruffled feathers back then.

I really do not see DL trying to get on the wrong side of the City of Dallas. There is always the chance that VX could have issues down the road. For darn sure they would not want to be on the wrong side if somewhere down the road they open more gates at DAL.

I do not think that DL would want to appear to be on a retaliatory if future options open at DAL and try an negotiate from a hostile position.

Okie

par13del · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 27):
This is on the City of Dallas for the horse s**t agreement they have.

Hey, let's not let the city of DFW off the hook so easy, they are knee deep in this too.

iFlyLOTs · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 29):
Hey, let's not let the city of DFW off the hook so easy, they are knee deep in this too.

While DFW is larger than Manhattan, it is not a city. Fort Worth on the other hand...

I would also like to bring into question the DOJ and their "American is being anti-competitive with their merger". Because through that, this is what happened.

mayor · Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 19):

Do none of you realize that the reason DL is being booted is because UA adjusted their schedule in such a way that there is no more gate space? The city of Dallas had nothing to do with this. VX is staying because they won the bid last year for a preferential use gate. DL only has the right to use gates when no one else is, and UA doubled their schedule in order to use both gates and not allow DL to use their gates.

If we're going to bash someone, at least chose the right party to blame here.

Oh, I'm sure that UA will be invited to the party if it goes to court.

N62NA · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:04 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 30):

I would also like to bring into question the DOJ and their "American is being anti-competitive with their merger". Because through that, this is what happened.

I read the article in the first post and then all the comments and wondered as I read through them all when someone would get it right. It's the DOJ that did this.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 26):
Delta could take the four 744 it's planning to park and put them into continuous rotations ORD-SFO-ORD and IAD-SFO-IAD, booking last minute fares into a discounted/instant-upgrade First fare rule FUUA.

If it was UA's fault, that would be fun to watch, but this is yet another case of the Federal government messing things up.

LoneStarMike · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 27):
This is on the City of Dallas for the horse s**t agreement they have.

This isn't a City of Dallas agrement. It's a five-party agreement, so let's be sure and blame DFW, Fort Worth, WN and AA, too. And you can also blame congress for approving it.

LoneStarMike

Okie · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 30):
I would also like to bring into question the DOJ and their "American is being anti-competitive with their merger". Because through that, this is what happened.

Unintended consequences from central planning.
I will just add that DL pretty much already had free reign over the two AA gates that were leased and did not put them to much use.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 27):
This is on the City of Dallas for the horse s**t agreement they have

The Wright Amendment is Federal law not the City of Dallas, wrong horse.

There is much more involved here with the ReWright Amendment than the number of gates the best I recall.
There are other provisions dealing with the total number of movements, curfews, noise standards to satisfy the nimbys.
So even if they somehow did add gates there would be some impact elsewhere.

Okie

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:12 am

How soon until DL announces ORD or IAH - LAX ?

At the end of the day this is such a rediculous situation to kick out an incumbant airline with incumbant service because of an artifical limit on gates.

enilria · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 27):
Quoting RDH3E (Reply 19):
If we're going to bash someone, at least chose the right party to blame here.

Its not United's fault.

This is on the City of Dallas for the horse s**t agreement they have.

Quoting okie (Reply 34):
The Wright Amendment is Federal law not the City of Dallas, wrong horse.

There is much more involved here with the ReWright Amendment than the number of gates the best I recall.
There are other provisions dealing with the total number of movements, curfews, noise standards to satisfy the nimbys.
So even if they somehow did add gates there would be some impact elsewhere.

Whatever horse, UA is just taking the same advantage DL would. The law is the problem and it has been since it was changed. It's horribly anti-competitive.

mayor · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:19 am

Please correct me, but if we're talking about being "anti-competitive", why is WN allowed to have so many gates at DAL?

nomorerjs · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:25 am

DL on LAX to IAH and ORD is s given. What will UA do with DAL? ORD as a premtive strike to VS seems logical.

N62NA · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
Please correct me, but if we're talking about being "anti-competitive", why is WN allowed to have so many gates at DAL?

Because the Federal government says so. Next question.

as739x · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:32 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 19):
Do none of you realize that the reason DL is being booted is because UA adjusted their schedule in such a way that there is no more gate space?

Yes, because now we shall allow other airlines control scheduling of others

These are not common use gates, so DAL left itself without ability to tell UA or any other carrier you need to tow off on unrealistic gate stay times. This is something DAL brought on itself and no blame should be on UA for running their operation.

CO777DAL · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:37 am

I think people forget that DAL-IAH was the number one route in CO system for frequency between two cities for over 10 years. Before the 2008 downturn CO ran 16 flights a day. UA will have no problem selling seats. It will much better for them now with 12 flights as it is much better schedule for all the businessmen passengers between the two cities. UA has been letting money walk away the past two years with only 7 to 8 flights a day.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 38):
What will UA do with DAL? ORD as a premtive strike to VS seems logical.

I think EWR-DAL would do great with mainline or E175s. Same with SFO-DAL.

Okie · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 40):
These are not common use gates, so DAL left itself without ability to tell UA or any other carrier you need to tow off on unrealistic gate stay times. This is something DAL brought on itself and no blame should be on UA for running their operation

The best I can recall there is some language about the minimum number of flights per gate to retain preferential gate usage.
UA did not fall out of the luggage hold yesterday, I suspect they are meeting that requirement although I have no idea of the number of movements. I believe even VX will have to avoid that trap.

Okie

[Edited 2014-09-29 17:47:39]

MSPNWA · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:46 am

Oh boy, break out the popcorn! I don't blame UA for doing what they can with their gates to prevent DL from accessing DAL. This is just the negative side to the restrictions of the Wright Amendment.

jayunited · Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:57 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Funny this is mentioned since UA was the party solely responsible for single handedly kicking DL out of DAL (through their unrealistic long turn around times .... how slow can you be to need 90 mins to turn around a ERJ ?)

Lets blame United for everything because they refuse to share their gates with Delta.

It's funny to see how upset the Delta fan club is over this issue when everyone knows full well if the tables were reversed Delta would do the same thing to and shut United out as well.

commavia · Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 22):
DL would have done the same thing.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 44):
It's funny to see how upset the Delta fan club is over this issue when everyone knows full well if the tables were reversed Delta would do the same thing to and shut United out as well.

Personally, I tend to agree. Delta has proven itself quite the aggressive competitor when it wants to be, and if the tables were, indeed, turned, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Delta did the exact same thing.

mayor · Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 44):
It's funny to see how upset the Delta fan club is over this issue when everyone knows full well if the tables were reversed Delta would do the same thing to and shut United out as well.

Maybe, maybe not. But you or I are no more clairvoyant than anyone else and I guess we'll never know. Just seems odd that someone's decision is kicking out an incumbent airline.

jetlanta · Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:09 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 45):
Personally, I tend to agree. Delta has proven itself quite the aggressive competitor when it wants to be, and if the tables were, indeed, turned, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Delta did the exact same thing.

Regardless of any of that, it is totally insane to tell a long-established incumbent that they have to leave a market in order to support some ridiculous law that is intended to increase competition.

Would anyone support this anywhere else? Should Delta vacate MDW as well?

commavia · Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 47):
Regardless of any of that, it is totally insane to tell a long-established incumbent that they have to leave a market in order to support some ridiculous law that is intended to increase competition.

Would anyone support this anywhere else? Should Delta vacate MDW as well?

So I guess Delta has never taken a position or had anything to say about a second airport in Metro Atlanta?

ordbosewr · Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:27 am

I am quite certain that if DL approach UA with something that would entice UA to share (ie MONEY) then they could have continued the schedule they planned.
Let's also not forget that DL would do the same thing to UA if they could at any other airport if they had the opportunity.

It should be noted that DL knew this was always a possibility but they still created a schedule that was not supported with gate space they knew about.
I take this akin to asking to run daytime flights into HND but not having the authority, but going the next step to put them up for sale

DL deserves alot of flack from the customers that bought these tickets.

UA deserves none, business is business and UA is doing NOTHING wrong. You can argue about the turn lengths and such, but UA may want those planes to wait for the banking in IAH or crew or any other reason, but that is really irrelevant to the argument. UA can put out a schedule to support the gates it has. DL did NOT.

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